Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Ken Kelly. He's an entrepreneur with both Fortune 100 and Silicon Valley startup experience, leveraging business to solve the world's most complex problems. He co-founded Never Settle, a business software application and custom API provider, defining and building company culture, our daily pursuits and business, as he believes everything stems from culture. Ken, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01So tell us a bit more about who you are and um the ventures you're involved in, because there are many.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Yeah, I'm I I think first and foremost, I'm just a son. I'm a son of the king. You know, I'm I'm I was I was uh a boy who was adopted. I was very, very lost. I came from a fairly broken home. And um looking back, I can see just God's hand and kindness on my life through my rebellious periods. And so I think my baseline is always just like I'm a son who's loved. And um I was a I got to be, I was, I was super blessed to be a first generation college student. Went to college. I barely barely got through high school because I was so disengaged. Um, I think my I think my high school GPA was a 1.7. And I skimmed into college on academic probation. And I had a professor that told me to a class of, I think it was like 600 people, she's gonna give out three A's. But to my particular class, because she had multiple uh sessions, she would not give any one of us an A. And it like, it really upset me. I was like, who's this woman that's gonna tell me that I can't get an A? And I had no interest in the school really. Um, and it ignited something in me. And I ended up graduating top of my class as Magna Cumulade, and then um yeah, educational super transformative to my life and uh you know, met Jesus at a young age. And like I said, I feel like he was just had kindness with me to be patient with me through all my my various challenges, but ended up going to the normal business world, was in management consulting for a while, and then Silicon Valley and did a few other things. But through all those experiences, I feel like I I learned a lot of what was going on really well, but probably even more so things that were really broken. And there was something that was what kind of eroding my soul of wanting to do business, which I was gifted at, but glorify the kingdom. And so um I ended up leaving uh well through through my career and starting never settle. We're digital marketing creative agency, but it was really based on how are we gonna do business? There wasn't a grand vision. It was just, I'm really tired of the way that business is being run. So can can we just do can we do business in a way that's that starts from a biblical perspective? And I went to some of my big investors in the past and and advisors that we've done some stuff, and they all told me, Ken, you have a great heart, but you were gonna fail. Like the business world is gonna tear you apart and you will never like that's a great concept, but you will never, it'll never work. And I was just so tired of the way.
SPEAKER_01Um why why not? Why did they say it wouldn't work?
SPEAKER_03Uh, they just didn't believe that you could have this Christianity biblical based view where you know it's like they believe it's sharks out there and it's gonna be too kind and too neat. And and I've just had a a roadmap in my life that's that's really said, whether I understand it or not, I really believe biblical values are a roadmap for my life. It's it's a manual that's that is written that will always be proven right. And so I kind of went into with blind faith. A lot of people laughed me off. And then when we got through our first year, and we're like, wow, like we're still here. I just I was like, I had taken in so much doubt from the critics. Um, and that those first years were probably the most informative of us establishing who we are as a company, where we just everything that we did, like how are we gonna hire and what's the company based on, and why are we in business and what are we doing? Every single one of those conversations was multiple month conversations of looking at the Bible and praying about it to come up with conclusions where we ended up kind of putting that all into our operating agreement, actually, like what our conclusions were. So um, yeah, so I I am uh I'm a son and I've been and I currently work in business, would probably be the summary of all that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Is there a particular uh Bible verse or passage that uh really kind of encapsulates your the way that you see the the integration of your Christian faith and business?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I hadn't before I started prepping for this, and I was thinking about it based on some some questions that you provided. And I got to sit in this and I just I'm so grateful that you asked that because I look I looked at everything and I would say everything that we've built or everything that I've built my life on really comes down to Exodus 33. And in verse 15, Moses to kind of to kind of set the stage for Exodus. So um God is talking to Moses and he's telling him that like you're going to take my people to the promised land and deliver them from from Egypt, and I'm gonna I'm gonna be with you. And Moses just responds in verse 15 and he said, Um, I not without your presence. I think specifically um he says, and he said to him, If your presence is not going, do not lead us up from here. And to me, everything in life is pointless without God being there, but the uh the humility and the the know with all to know that like nothing else matters without your presence. And and it's it's his presence, right? So it's more than just I need you to help me, or I need this other thing. It's actually I want to be with you. And so to get to walk, you know, with God, um, to be in his cadence and his step is to me the foundation behind everything that that I want to be about, right? And there's definitely times where I'm where I don't do that, and it's it that's what I want to be about. And I want our company to be built around uh where is God going? So I want to follow his presence, right? They followed the the cloud by day and the fire by night. They did not lead the show, right? But they but they did do things. So that's that's the posture that I want our our company to have.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What does that look like as a company in practice?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's uh there's a lot of different areas for me that um impacts. But I think first and foremost is just making sure that that my personal relationship with God is is always first. And so um starting my mornings out with um different times of trying to encounter and just experience him, whether it's worship or prayer or solitude or whatever that may be, spending time with him and then throughout my day making sure that I'm connected. That's like one of my deep, deep prayers every morning is that that I would that I would abide in Yeshua, that I would that I would abide in Jesus and know um his will and his wisdom. And so I know that if I'm not connected to the vine, nothing, uh nothing is possible, right? It's pointless. I mean, scripture tells us that um abide in me and I in you, and um apart from me, you can do nothing, but in me, you can do all things. And so I know that if I'm not, if I'm not going to the well of life every day, getting filled that like I'm gonna fail really big. And so that's I'd say my posture first of like not without your presence is I have to, his presence is there, I have to go and I have to choose to encounter and to immerse myself in that. And then um practically his presence, you know, he says, uh follow my follow my laws, obey my voice, like love me, like give me your all. And so, as we have thought about the business, like I said, even into our operating agreement, we've said, what does the Bible say about certain things? And so uh a couple examples, because I know you're you were talking about practical examples. Um, a couple of things like love your neighbors yourself. And one of the things we've we instituted really early was this idea that we're gonna have 40-hour work weeks um and no more, no less. And not because we think 40 hours is how much time a human is supposed to work. I personally believe people were made to work six days and to rest one day. But what we realized is that to love our neighbor, to love our team as ourselves, means like we have to love their community and the things that they're part of. So if we if we ask our team to devote an exorbitant amount of time to what we're doing, even if what we're doing is amazing, like never settles on a mission to see human trafficking ended. And and you know, it's gonna take thousands of organizations and other people, but like we want to be part of that train and we're investing a ton into that. That's a really worthy cause, but we still limit our staff to 40 hours a week because we want them to be present with their families, present with their own faith. We have, I mean, our we're our company is very diverse. We have lots of people from different religious backgrounds, people who believe in God, people who don't believe in God, and kind of everything in between. But we want people to be present to their families, their communities, to have capacity to serve in those areas. And if we require a ton from them, there's no way that that they can show up and be fully alive in those other places, even though, you know, hopefully they're working more than 40 by helping a neighbor or they're investing in nonprofit, or they have their side hobby or whatever they're, you know, they're interested in music or whatever that may be. So that that would be one practical example. Um another, another one is tithing was really um was really apparent to us as was everything is Yahweh's, everything, everything is the Lord's, right? Everything truly is his. And it's not his is 10% and mine's 90%. Literally, everything he has, like, or everything I have is his. And all he's done is he's he's allowed me to be a steward of these resources. And the weight that that carries when you're in business and the resources are significantly more than maybe you have as a person, was very humbling. And for us to say, okay, what does this mean? Like God's gonna trust us with people, uh, with time, their time, their talent, and then these finances. And how do we steward that? And so we had lots of discussions in that. But one of one of the things that came out of that was we need to be really intentional what we focus our people's time on and what we focus their talent, like being able to see, like, this person is really gifted in this area. We don't want to squander that. Like, that's a gift from God. How do we pull that out to use it to glorify God in the marketplace or in in the things that we're doing? And then with tithing, was like these these are always his finances. He's just made us a uh like a dispenser. Like we just get to write, it's his checkbook and we get to we get to use it. And so just to be in relationship and harmony with him, like, what do you want to do with your fund? Like, what are you wanting to do with your assets, father? And so one of the things we said is just as a as a rhythm, we're gonna tithe as a company. Um, and for us, it's it's just tithing off of revenue, not profit. And revenue, I'd say revenue after cost of goods sold. Um, and just saying, like, that's that's really important. And for us, most of that goes to missionaries and then to anti-trafficking. We used to be really diverse. And one of the things that just, you know, every year we try to revisit this stuff. I think that's what it looks like to say, not without your presence. Like if you're in his presence, there's a continual conversation, which means likely things are going to change because I probably didn't hear accurately the first time. And so one of the things is we used to just kind of give all over the place, and then we came to uh an understanding, I'd say, in in just walking with God of to be effective to effectively use his resources, we need to kind of go deeper and wider. And so we've we've really narrowed it to the missionaries that we started supporting in the beginning, like we still maintain that, and then everything else goes in towards um fighting human trafficking. So that's like where everything, where everything goes. But as a company, we did that. And then I don't think I've ever shared this before. And I I just appreciate that you said, let's talk about practical things. Um I just I just share because I've been really encouraged when people have been vulnerable and I've been able to learn from that. But as partners, we also sign that like at a minimum, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna have a tithing standard of of tithing as partners. And so as owners, we all hold each other accountable to that in our personal lives and are walking with each other in our personal finances to have that transparent so there's nothing hidden. Um, and that we can be accountable to what we believe God's calling us to be. And that's that's outside that's you know, that's that's kind of over and above what a company is. That's like one of the things that has impacted us. And then um the other the other example I'd say is is Sabbath, right? Which is very counterculture to Western culture of work harder, faster, bigger, you know. Um, but we we were made to rest. We were made to rest in his example. And so from the very beginning, we we said like our our understanding when looking at it was that um kind of like our normal calendar that starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday, that the last day of the week was Saturday, sundown. And so we just shut down the company um Fridays at sundown until Saturday nights at sundown. And most of our team doesn't work in the weekends at all. But we do ask everybody to commit to that as part of their offer letter, whether they believe what we believe or not, that whatever you do, you can you can do whatever you want, just do not work on never settle from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. And we encourage them to say, and we really hope you rest. Like go find time to be a way to unplug. And so that's one of the things that we have um gone to uh to just put in place to create rhythms of rest for our people. And it's been extremely fruitful. And again, we've had some pushback on it where people are like, you can't, you can't close your business, you can't close down. And and really, like, God's the one that provides for us. So we can do like we we can just trust him that's gonna work out. And it has, and it's been, I think the biggest gift in that has been a gift to our people. And it's really interesting that it took many years for our people. I think for some of the some people just thought, oh, you're just doing this religious exercise. Years later, we had people being like, man, I just want you to know, like, I'm so grateful, so grateful, like that you guys have put these limits on us. It's like been really healthy for my for my life personally. So, and I think that's I think that's the fruit of following God, right? Like, I think when we align ourselves to scriptural principles, the fruit of it will be a blessing in our life in some in some way or another. And I'm not talking about name it and claim it, or I do this and I make money, nothing like that, but like a blessing. And that blessing is typically gonna, I feel like spiritual health, like peace, deep shalom in your life. So those are three examples that to me are more on that practical side of what it looked like as we were praying into and just thinking about how to do business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And that Sabbath is uh a game changer. I mean, the the idea isn't to work six days making money, and then the seventh day is when you do your laundry and mow the lawn and you know, do everything else. It's like, I mean, at some point during the week, you're gonna have to do all of the things for your own household that and you're not necessarily working directly for your for your company. So there's gotta be some margin for that. Um, appreciate how you guys are committed to doing that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Sabbath is it's a family topic for me and my wife. Again, just we talk about this continually. What does that look like? And we've had our own, like, how do we abide in rest? Um, and it's it's difficult. There's the and I wish it wasn't, but everything for culture is pulling us to do more, and there's and we're so full that we don't have the margin to do that. But we've tried, we've tried to do that same thing of just like at our our kind of our minimum threshold is like nothing that's income producing or that's part of our normal work, right? So for me, that's that's a lot in technology and business, and so like all that gets shut down. But then having questions like, yeah, like is it okay? Is it good? Is it wise? Is it healthy for me to walk with God and to be working on the house? And I've and I've kind of come to a conclusion, like, not really. Now, if I if I love gardening, and that's like a way for me just to connect with God, like that's different than like me going out and pulling weeds, which is more work to me than maybe someone that loves to garden. Yeah. Um, but I don't, I think, I think what's beautiful about walking with God is it's relational. Like it's not like, and that's what religion's done from the very beginning is we don't like that we have to, that it's not black and white. We don't like that it's we just want an answer, right? So we're that's where religion has come in and said, like, you know, all these extra, you know, the whatever it was, almost a thousand laws that the that the Jews had added on top of the Torah was so they could define what work was. For instance, on Sabbath, they're like, well, 500 steps is work, but up to that it's not, versus just walking with God saying, what does that mean? Not to work, like, what does it mean for me to to obey, walk in your ways, and to not work? And so for us as a family, again, it's it's changed over the years of what it's looked like. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01What are what are the main one or two things that that um that you look at and say, this is how I know that I'm successful as a as a business owner? Um, because you're you're doing you got a lot of different irons in the fire. Um, but what what do you look at uh or or what do you measure that really convinces you that I'm successful in business?
SPEAKER_02So it's a humbling question.
SPEAKER_03Because the the truth is most days I'm looking at RPL. Like I'm looking at are we are we growing, are we hitting the goals that we've set, these these metrics. So I would say that's that is one area that that I am looking at a lot. But I think the things that keep me coming back to work and where I'm where I'm where I'm rooted in my true identity is are we discipling our people? Like that's probably the number one, one of the top ones for me. So our our mission statement is to create cultures of discipleship through business and innovation. And for us, business and innovation is just that's the giftings that he's given this group of people. And so we want to create cultures of discipleship, and cultures is plural because we've launched multiple companies. And so we just want each one to be a culture that's that's number one being a disciple first, and then two is creating disciples. So that's when I see that we're getting off the path when our people, which which we've had, we've had people, especially in the COVID season, um, and in 2020, people just saying, like, I just don't feel like I'm being mentored or trained or whatever. And and I'm thinking, wow, like the alarm bells are going off because that's our number one mission, like to love people, to be with them. And so that's that's probably one of the top metrics or things that I look at. Like, are we creating cultures of discipleship? It would be one of them. And then the second one is are we moving the needle? Are we making an impact in trafficking? And that's really complex and really hard to do, but those are the two things that I'm looking at. And when I when I believe and I can stand back and say, okay, we're walking with God in this, like we're loving people well, and we're we're using his resources to do to set the captives free, to see see the oppressed free, then I think, okay, like we're on the right path. And it's hard most days, right? Because you're you're caught up in email and meetings and these things that don't feel like they're making an impact. But when I can step back and put it all together, I realize um if we follow those two things, we're I think we're walking with him in that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How do you measure discipleship? There, we don't, we don't have metrics.
SPEAKER_03So I think it's just looking at people and spending time with them and and getting their feedback, right? So we've we got feedback from people that said, I don't feel like I'm being trained or mentored. And that to me is a part of discipleship, it's just like meeting someone's practical needs and walking with them. So a lot, so our measurement is is in all the one-on-ones. And then also just to see people's growth, it's kind of like, how would I measure my children's um my discipling them? Right. And it's just it's more of these metrics where I see like where were where were they at a year ago and where are they at today? But we don't have like specific metrics that we look at. It's really just um mental measurements of someone at different places in time and talk talking with them, you know, where are we? Where are we loving you well? Where are we failing? And just getting their honest feedback.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think I was browsing around on your website in preparation and I came across it, must have been like a company address or something that you were giving and talking about the uh I guess the feedback forms. These were um kind of employee satisfaction surveys or or am I is that what I'm thinking of?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't I don't know about the article, but we do we do that for sure. So we so we have our one-on-ones where we're getting feedback. We also have we do annual surveys, and then recently I had a ton of people tell me you need to watch this Ted Lasso show. And I started watching it and um, and I love this idea of the anonymous like feedback box. And so um that's something we started implementing because as much as like we have such good relationships with our people, and I want to believe they can be 100% transparent, and I would say history has shown like they've like they've been really honest about things that are very hard to talk about. But there's I I also have just um been taught by some members of my life like there's there is still something that can create someone from having just radically honest feedback. And so now we've created an anonymous feedback form for anybody to just submit things. So I'd say between like our biannual surveys, we do all hands trips, like we fly everyone to one place and we spend a week together and really dive deep, our one-on-ones, and then the this this anonymous survey, those are those are different inputs or ways that we've received that feedback.
SPEAKER_01If there was, and I don't know how familiar or how much you remember about the specific language on those those feedback forms, but if there was like one or two statements on there that would really indicate um if you said, how do we know we're discipling our people? Let's look at item seven and 13 on that assessment or or whatever it might be. Is there a is there a statement like that that would um because these are I'm I'm assuming not everybody at the company is a is a Christian.
SPEAKER_02Correct. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so but but yeah, and you know, Jesus' disciples were being discipled before they even really knew what was going on either. So um, you know, it doesn't have to be like a stepwise process of they they go through the Roman road, pray a prayer salvation, and now they're you know, they're being discipled. I think discipleship is uh discipling nations, you're you're you're shifting culture. I mean, it's it's a little bit hard to even identify exactly um what stage of the process somebody somebody is in, but um, is there maybe somebody is because I hear this a lot from business owners. I want to disciple my people. Um how could you what's a way that you could ask a sort of pluralistic group of employees, uh diverse group of employees, um if they're being discipled without even necessarily using that Christian language?
SPEAKER_03That's a great question. The thing that comes to mind is one of the things I try to be careful of is if I'm speaking to our team, to not put to speak words over them that make them feel like I have to do this or that I have to like take on this language or whatever. But I would say year after year, a theme that has emerged is a very consistent thing of like never settles my family. And they like there's some language about family and and something to the extent where they'll say, I've never been in a place like this. I know people care about me. And um, you know, other people saying things like, I don't know if I'm allowed to, but I I talk about my personal life on issues I don't even talk to about my closest friends to with my boss or whatever. And I just want you to know I really appreciate that. And so um, but I think the way that the team has incorporated this language, and like I said, I've never tried to to do that because I don't want to cast this vision, like, hey, we're family, and it's like people are like, we're not really family, and I'm kind of pushing that down. It's something that organically came up from the bottom, and new people say it without being told to do it. So we do when we're walking, I just like, man, just like we I feel like I'm in a family. And that to me, um I would say family represents one of the closest bonds of love. And so I think to disciples to love really well, obviously, like there's there's a teaching component, but I'm also a huge fan of um, I believe it was St. Francis of Assisi who said it, but I heard somebody recently said, no, it wasn't really him. So I don't know if it's him or not, but I love this idea of like preach the word of God every day and if necessary, use words. And so um I am hopeful that with with our actions we can show people. And we're very transparent when we go through hard things. We let people into that process and we let them to see conflict or see challenges, hoping that that we can do the right thing and what it looks like to walk with God. So um I think you know, I get to read some surveys about our team, especially our leadership, and and the team saying, like, I'm so taken back by the way that you live your life or the way that you handle the situation. When I see someone saying that about one of our leaders, it's um I think okay, like we're doing something, like we're doing something right. But it's again, there's no there's no perfect checkbox, but I those are the things that stand out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I guess a takeaway for me is if you want to know, um if you're discipling, a good question to ask is to find out the extent to which your people believe that you care about them. You know, because anything that that you do from that point, not just that you care about the mission, not just that you care about the you know, the the PL, but that you care about them. Anything you do after that is, I mean, that's going right into good ground, you know. That's that's going, that's not going into that rocky, uh hard soil, you know, that that Jesus talked about, but somebody that's probably uh pretty receptive to the way you live your life. And whether they want to sign up for that or not, uh there's still some osmosis that's probably happening there if they know you care, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's that's the foundation everything. I I forgot about this, but it reminds me I was a young life leader for quite a while. And um, this was a while, like many years ago. So I'm not speaking on their behalf or exactly what it was, but I know that the first philosophy was you have to earn the right to speak in in into a teenager's life. And it was literally, there was like a it's like it was either one year or two years, like you, unless they bring up Jesus or anything about like their salvation or walking with God or like you never bring it up because you're gonna you are gonna show up and you're gonna invest in this child's life and you're gonna you're gonna earn the right to speak in their life. You know, just me guy that shows up, speaks all spews all this stuff on them and then leaves, which is also why they have these huge commitments. Like their volunteers are doing, I think it's 20 hours a week. I mean, it's like it's significant and it's a two or three year commitment because they're saying we we can't have people come in their lives, trying to transform them in some of the darkest, hardest places of their lives, and then and then jet. So that just to me just reminds me of that like building that fertile soil, like someone has to know truly that number one, you're gonna be there and that you care about them. For yeah, you have to have that fertile ground for the soil to come, right? To to till up that hard ground before you can plant a seed. So I I totally agree with what you just said.
SPEAKER_01Well, you said it. I was just uh echoing it. And I I think it's a good um point for us to really depart on, contemplate on. Um what's uh way that people can get involved with what you're doing, Ken? Maybe learn more about uh what you're and what you're doing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the probably the best way is just to uh go to neversettle.it and that's um a lot of stuff that we're doing there. We're actually launching an initiative right now that's not public yet, but in in May, something will be coming out um that's very specific to um to going after human trafficking um and bringing lots of organizations together. And so that that'll be announced on Never Settle. So that's probably the best way to to uh to find out about that. Um and yeah.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful. Well, Ken, this has been uh excellent, really challenging for me because my one of my strengths is not showing people how much I care about them. Um but it's a it's a growth area for me. And um, I mean, that's if you want to make disciples, I mean, that's where there's gotta be some uh some fertile ground, right? And and we have a a part to play in that. Uh I I think sometimes we can look at that parable and say, oh, well, this person's just they're just hard, you know, and they're they're against God, they don't want anything to do with God. Well, maybe you have a role in helping to kind of soften, soften them up, you know, just through being encouraging and being available, letting them know you care. I mean, young life, perfect example. If anyone knows of young life or has been around any young life leader, is Mark Lowell. I I'll never forget this man from uh from my high school growing up. I mean, he was at he was in the lunchroom, he was at the wrestling matches, he was at the football games. I mean, this guy just poured his life into those high school students, and I just will never forget him being available for people like that. Um, but uh so good. Um, can any any last uh parting advice for listeners?
SPEAKER_03Uh I I said I jumped to no, but then and then it hit me. So I take that, I received that comment. Um, I would just I would encourage anyone that's that's that's in the business world to to not look at yourself as a secondhand Christian. Like I feel like I feel like there's there's something that's been culturally established that if you're not part of the clergy and you can't check that box, there's something that says I'm a secondhand Christian, I'm not totally walking in in the will of God or what he has for me because I'm not full-time ministry, right? And that's just not true. Like historically from the beginning until now, that is not true. And I think it's a lie of the enemy. And I think um one of the things to just encourage everyone that's in business right now, you are in a very, very unique time where business um has more influence, and this, I guess, is my personal opinion, has more influence on culture and people than than any other entity in the world right now. Um more than the local church, which I think is more important than business. So this isn't about importance, it's just more than local government, federal government. Um, and those things are all really important. But I think right now businesses just have more influence over culture than anything else. And so the question that it leaves with us if you're in, if you're in business, if you're in the marketplace, what's my responsibility? What does it look like to steward this unique time in you know in space, like Esther, right? Like I was appointed for this time for this very purpose. What is what is why are you here right now? Because if you were in business 80 years ago, your influence is very different than it is today. So just encouraging people like it, like your work matters and and it's absolutely kingdom, like you can, it can absolutely be kingdom work. But how you how you do that work is is really that impact. It's not what kind of work you're doing, it's how you're doing it. So I would that's what I would agree with.
SPEAKER_01Well, Ken, you and Never Settle are a great example of what you just said. So thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for being uh so transparent and um helpful to our listeners today. Thanks for helping us grow.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I appreciate being here.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.