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SPEAKER_01When he plopped a business in my lap in 2003 that I was not anticipating. At that time, I was in the uh technology space and uh was uh really uh a trainer on exchange. Exchange is the email system, the back end email system published and written by Microsoft. And there was uh there was a uh offshoot of Exchange at that time. It was called SharePoint, and uh SharePoint uh was very embryonic, it was a new product, and uh I was probably the only person in the world who wrote a book on SharePoint Portal Server 2001 for administrators, and that led to people calling me and asking me to consult. And I'd never been a consultant, I'm a trainer, just put me in the classroom and let me teach. Uh, but uh God opened up all kinds of training opportunities. And by the time that SharePoint 2003 had been published by Microsoft, um, I had a ton of Fortune 500s calling me saying, You look like you're the only guy who knows anything about this. Can you please come and help us get this installed and get it set up correctly? And that led to me having a business that I I did not ever by design anticipate having. And so that was uh closely thereafter I realized that God had put this in my lap. So God doesn't do anything without a purpose, right? So that was when I started to wonder well, why God, me, why now, why this business? And I started to look around for uh content on what the Bible had to say about owning a business, and I found that that content was nearly non-existent in the evangelical community. So that was when I learned that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So so prior to that, were you kind of doing the whole, you know, separation of sacred secular? Was that kind of your mindset that you know business is uh sort of a a necessary evil? And if I wanted to be in ministry, I would have, you know, I'd I'd I'd pastor a church, or what what were you doing before that?
SPEAKER_01I had no, I didn't have a complete dichotomy between the two. Um, but I didn't have a tight integration either. I thought as long as I didn't lie, cheat, steal, or run with girls who did, that I was probably uh integrating my faith with with my role in business. Um, but uh I didn't have nearly uh the level of of theology and integration of my faith into my role as an owner that I have today.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna ask you this question, we'll see where it goes. Um, what's your favorite Bible verse or passage related to business and entrepreneurship? Because you've in your book, A Christian Theology of Business Ownership, you've certainly um done some some uh treatment of of many of those.
SPEAKER_01So my my favorite is actually the fourth uh foundation for Christian stewardship. This is in chapter three of my book, but it's that it's that uh place where Moses or yeah, Moses is saying to uh the Israelites, look, once you get into the land and you it's Deuteronomy 8, 10 through 18. And he says, basically, once you get into the land and you settle down and you build your fine houses, don't forget that it's God who gave you the ability to create wealth. And uh and just don't forget that that's part of your covenant. Um, to me, that has been one of the foundational passages that talks about business ownership. Because there's a lot of people in this country who own businesses and they're really good at generating wealth, they're really good at growing a business, they're really good at managing a business. And uh they forget that it's God who did that. You know, this whole notion of pull your up by pull yourself up by your own bootstraps is not a biblical notion. It's a uh, it might be a conservative notion that a lot of uh Christians like to buy into, but it's not biblical. Yeah, you know, we have a responsibility before God, a stewardship responsibility, to remember that the wealth that we generate is really only because he gave us the ability to do that in the first place. And therefore, in to my way of thinking, that wealth really belongs to God. And uh, we are here just to generate it and steward it based on what he uh directs us to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well it's kind of like that um parable of the unrighteous steward in in a way. Uh I mean, he he had been fired, and then he goes around masquerading as still representing the the master and you know, marks down all their debts, so they're gonna invite him into um well, what Jesus says is you know, eternal dwellings, um, but that basically he's gonna have some friends on the uh whenever he's no longer employed, which he already wasn't employed, um, but Jesus commends him. Uh, you know, is there's some um relationship between those the the principles kind of represented in that parable as well as Deuteronomy 818 about how this is um I mean because Jesus Jesus commends him because he didn't he was um it's kind of a kind of a complicated parable theologically. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think he commends him for being wise and shrewd. I mean you know, some of the headlines, headlines, the division text that isn't part of the Greek there, call him the shrewd uh servant. Um he knew how to make friends with the right people because he knew he frankly knew he was getting fired, and so he better figure out his future, right? And he already been fired. Yeah, but nobody knew it, right? Right, right. No, nobody knew it but him, and so he goes out and he writes down the debts and he makes friends with people who before that were probably adversarial with him. Um that is shrewd, right? Uh, and and I I don't think God is saying, you know, let's go write down the debts of the people who owe us, but I do think he's saying that as Christians, we need to be shrewd and we need to understand the markets that we're in, and we need to understand the personalities that we're working with so that uh we can continue to survive and live for another day. It's my way of thinking, to uh spread the gospel and live for him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But ultimately, as you said from Deuteronomy 8:18, it's it's the Lord that gives us the power to produce. Well, I was thinking back to um there was a very inflammatory statement that uh Barack Obama made years ago speaking to uh business owners, where he said, You didn't build that. You remember that? I do. I mean, and and some there's some there's some truth to that in light of scripture, uh, in light of Deuteronomy 8.18, it's the Lord who is giving you the, you know, of course, I think he's wanting the government to probably take more credit for um the success of small business owners than probably they ought to. Um, but but in terms of um God and the way in which God has given us the power, it doesn't because it's interesting, it doesn't say that he gives us the wealth, he gives us the power to produce the wealth, right?
SPEAKER_01And and in the parable in Matthew uh 25, which I refer to a number of times in my book about the 10, 5, and 2 talents, um, the master never takes credit for the servants generating wealth, they generate the wealth, and so that's in alignment with Deuteronomy 8. And so it, you know, we are the ones who create the wealth, but that doesn't mean that it's our wealth. Yeah. And that's the, I don't want to say paradox, but that's the piece that most American Christians and maybe worldwide Christians really don't get. The wealth that we generate belongs to God in our stewardship role. And, you know, when you really take a hard look at what stewardship is and uh how a steward behaves and what a steward believes, you look at that and you say, yeah, there's not much that we own. We may own it in the American legal sense, but we don't own it in God's economy. It's all owned by God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, and so I think there's some lessons to be learned there from that unrighteous steward, which you know, maybe that's not, I think the only thing that was unethical about what he did was that he did it, not that he marked down the debts, but that he did it um uh under false pretenses that he was that he still had the authority to do that, um, which he didn't because he had already been fired. Um, but but still I think Jesus is commending him and and speaking to us that look, you don't you don't own it. Um it's it's God who gives you the the power is like the guy that built the bigger barns, and and God says, You fool. I mean, everything is gonna be demanded from you on this night. Um, and and so he thought it was his to hoard, but it wasn't, was it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it wasn't his to hoard at all. And then in my book, I define hoarding, uh, Darren, as excessive saving. So I think the Bible teaches that we save enough to cover future expenses, and beyond that, we give it away. And so, for you know, for some business owners who might be listening to this podcast, uh, you might have 20, 30, 50 million sitting in the bank. I think you really need to take a hard look at where your trust is and say, God, you know, if I only need a couple million or a million or three million or whatever it is for the future to cover future expenses, I probably need to look at figuring out how to give the rest of this away.
SPEAKER_02What's another one of your favorite um Bible verses or passages related to business and entrepreneurship?
SPEAKER_01You would ask me that, wouldn't you? There's so many.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, you know, I I um I think Matthew, I'm gonna go back to that parable of the talents, the 10, 5, and 2 talents in Matthew. I know in Luke it's five, two, and one talents, but in Matthew, it's 10, 5, and 2 talents. Um in the current NIV, they call it bags of gold, which I've had a hard time wrapping my head around that phrase, bags of gold. Uh but there's just so many stewardship lessons in that one parable. And uh I in my book, I come back to that parable probably four or five times and teach different parts of it from different angles. Um there is a very real sense, Darren, where God has entrusted to you, and I'll I'll use you as as an example. He's given you a certain platform here. You have one at Houston Baptist, you have this platform, he's entrusted that to you. Did you work to build it? Sure you did, right? But you couldn't have built it without God saying, Yes, I want Darren to do these things, you know, this theology of business uh ministry. Um and so in that sense, he's given you some talents. And the question is, you know, what are you gonna do with that? Right. And and are you going to build God's kingdom? Uh, not Darren's kingdom, but God's kingdom. Uh God has given me the ability to write a book. And actually, this this theology book that I wrote for business owners is my 15th book. And so um, you know, what do I what am I doing with my talent with that to further God's kingdom, not Bill's kingdom, because this is this world is not about Bill English, and it's not about Darren Shear, it's not about theology of business, it's not about Bible and business, it's about Jesus Christ, it's about God. He's the celebrity, we are not. Yeah, and so um the nice thing here is that when in that in that parable, when we do what God asks us to do and we produce, we take five talents and produce five more talents economically and spiritually, uh, we get more of the master's presence. And what a wonderful thing. The thing that we cannot lose, the master's presence is what we go after. So I love I love the parable in Matthew 25. To me, it's been uh a life-changing, instructive uh parable for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love how the the faithful steward it says you've been faithful, and what is leads you well, um I think I'm mixing it up, but he says, enter into the joy of your master. Yeah, is you know, see it the way I see it. See, think like uh have the perspective that I have. And um, wow, what does that mean for you to enter into the joy of your master as it relates to whatever you're stewarding?
SPEAKER_01Um, I connect that. Uh well, for me personally, it means that I just I when I know that I'm when I that I'm fulfilling my stewardship role to God, that just makes my quiet time that much more rich. Because I don't there's nothing that I have between me and God. And so uh I don't know how other people do it. I'm I tend to be a process-oriented guy. So, you know, most mornings I say, God, what would you like to say to me today? And then I sit and listen. And those those few minutes are so rich with his presence. And you learn that his presence is sweet, you learn that his presence is um different than anything else you can experience. And I there's some in some parts of his presence, there isn't an English word to describe it, other than um it is impressive, it is forceful, it is uh it is something that leaves a mark on you that you cannot unknow afterwards. Um and the more of his presence you get, the more you want it. Yeah, you know, and that's where I finally have begun to understand that phrase in the old hymn um uh turn your eyes upon Jesus. Yeah. Uh, because the things of this world grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and his grace. That was written by a person who knew the presence of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, and I love um just looking at this where Jesus was talking about right after the Lord's Prayer saying, if your son asks ask you for um uh uh fish, will you give him a scorpion? You know, of course not. How much more will your heavenly father give you the Holy Spirit? Right. And so it's not even about the fish or the bread or you know, the natural, the the business deal or whatever the new hire. That's not that's not your problem. It's not money, you know. Everybody says my prop, my biggest problem is money, or my biggest problem is I can't find good workers or anything like that. Jesus says, How much more will your heavenly father give you the Holy Spirit? What you your problem is you don't have the Holy Spirit, and that at least in relation to whatever that issue is going on in the in the business. And um, that's just been my prayer lately is asking for that much more of the the Holy Spirit that that He is the He doesn't just have the answer, he is the answer, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, First Peter says that our faith is worth more than gold, right? And it's hard for business owners to wrap their heads around that because they um sometimes it's hard for them, I should say, uh, because our lives as business owners are spent trying to create wealth, but a lot of times it's for ourselves. We got to remember, you know, and and and I know some business owners like this who are worth 20, 40, 50 million dollars, but their faith in Jesus is the world to them. And this business over here, they did it because they were good at it and they had a lot of fun and they kind of live nice lifestyles, but their faith in Jesus is what drives them. And uh they have on they have captured that First Peter idea of our faith being worth more than gold.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, wow. What's another uh I mean, in this book, Christian Theology of Business Ownership, what's one of those that you've gotten a a really good response on in terms of wow, I just hadn't thought about it like that, or this has really been helpful to me and my business, one of those things that you've been teaching.
SPEAKER_01You know, nothing specific, quite frankly, Darren. Uh what most most of the feedback that has come back to me uh that's been positive. You know, sometimes there's negative feedback too, uh, but the positive feedback has been around uh that the that there's so much practicality in the book coupled and connected to theology. Um, one area that was really instructive for me, um, I ended up starting the book out with, and that was this concept that we will one day all reign with Christ in the new heaven and in the new earth. And that our work here on this earth is preparatory for reigning with Christ in the future. And I I I go to some verses in Revelation for that. But in uh in, you know, if if if you remember Ephesians 2.10, for we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, right? So God is preparing us now for a work that's in the future, and God is in the future preparing that work for us so that when the two meet, when we meet the work and the work meets us, both are ready for each other, right? That's a a pre-eternity version of what um many verses in Revelation talk about, where we will reign with him. Those who are faithful to Christ, those who endure until the end, will reign with Christ. And that has been revolutionary for me because I have now connected what I'm doing on this earth. And I'm 61, so I'm you know, give or take, 20 years left is what I got. Um uh what I'm doing on this earth is preparatory for reigning with Christ. So the more that I obey Christ now, that's preparatory for reigning with Him. The more that I place my faith and trust and confidence in Christ rather than my own abilities or whatever savings I might have, my security and all that. All of that is preparatory for reigning with Christ in the future. And um, I want the future. I don't want, I mean, I do, I do want to take care. Some things now, but more and more I'm just orienting my life to you know, whatever you want, God, because 20 years I'll probably be dead, and none of this will matter. And um, eternity is forever. And so I want to build those treasures in heaven. I want to build uh my relationship with Christ because I want to be ready to reign with him in whatever capacity he wants.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it also says in in Romans, I just looked it up because I wanted to get the right um reading of it. For if by one man's offense death reign by one, much more they which receive an abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life. Yeah, yeah. How awesome. It's a now, it's a now and now, but not yet, as so many things are in the scripture in the Christian life, right?
SPEAKER_01Right. And so when God entrusts a business to us, Darren Taran, or a ministry, if you're a ministry leader, um, when he does that, there is a sense in which we're reigning over that part of his kingdom right now. Yeah. Um, again, another reason why we can't take arrogant credit for growing a business or growing a ministry. And I, and and to tangentialize for just a moment, this is really a problem with our celebrity pastors in our churches today, where it has become about them rather than about Jesus Christ. Uh, when God gives you a pulpit, he does that for a reason. He entrusts that to you, but you got to remember Jesus is the celebrity, not the not the pastor.
SPEAKER_02That's right. So Bibleandbusiness.com is the website. The book is a Christian theology of business ownership. How can people get involved in what you're doing?
SPEAKER_01You know, my my uh homepage has ways that that just lists out ways that that they can get involved. Um uh mainly they they can just read, they can learn. Um, I do on occasion, Darren, I do some online live groups. I don't charge for them. Um, but they can kind of stay tuned for that. Uh but um uh uh they can always contact me at bill at bibleandbusiness.com and just ask me questions and I'm happy to respond. I'm I'm on Twitter, Facebook, and I'm also interested, I think uniquely, um maybe not interestingly, but uniquely, I'm teaching my way through my book on my YouTube channel. So I'm in chapter four right now on partnerships. And so if they want to go watch, you know, read a section of my book and then watch the video that pertains to that, uh, that's a second way that they can learn as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What does the Bible say about part? Oh, actually, I know what I wanted to ask you. What's negative feedback you've gotten about the book?
SPEAKER_01Uh it's uninteresting and it's too dense, and no one's gonna read it because it's too theological, and business owners don't like theology.
SPEAKER_02So that's so there's not any specific um issue points that they've taken issue with.
SPEAKER_01No, just okay. No, I write for a really niche audience. I write for business owners and business leaders who are serious about integrating their faith or integrating their role into their faith uh as leaders. And uh there's, you know, I figure there's two million give or take Christian business owners in the United States. Um, I bet if you're to ask ask them, you know, how would you like to use free business for Jesus Christ? I bet 95% of them, Darren, would say, Yeah, I'd love to. Um, how do I do that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I write to try to help answer that question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, what is one action you'd want people to take as a result of um either what they've heard on this episode or or even kind of off in another direction?
SPEAKER_01You know, because I'm not trying to do a ministry, I'm not trying to build a ministry. I you know, you and I talked about that before we started the podcast offline. Um, really, what I hope people will do is consume the content and then pass it on and let and let the Lord uh energize them and change them in whatever ways he wants through my content and other content from other writers, uh, so that uh they become more like Jesus Christ and then just pass it on, pass it on to other owners. I'm not trying to build a uh a ministry for myself or around myself. I I just write and hopefully people are led to Jesus Christ by the by the content.
SPEAKER_02How about in relation to Deuteronomy 818? Um what do you want people to do in light of that? That the to not forget the Lord your God who has given you the power to produce wealth, to establish his covenant. What's a practical application of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if if you've produced a lot of wealth, then go live at the median income level of your community and give the rest of it away. Say that one more time. Uh if you've produced a lot of wealth, then go leave at the median income level of your community, make sure you save enough for future expenses, and then give the rest of it away.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Frankly, it doesn't have to be a lot of wealth, you know, to live at the median income. It's it's it's relatively low when you think about it.
SPEAKER_01Well, it it depends on where you live. I live in Maple Grove, Minnesota. We're the 1538th richest community in the in the United States. We're in the top five and a half percent. The median income here is around $110,000 per household. I don't know where it is, where you live, Darren. I'd have to go look that up.
SPEAKER_02I'm in, I'm we're a bunch of hillbillies here. And we're like Western North Carolina. Well, we just moved here, so we're um yeah, it's back in the back in the southeast after being away for a while. But um anyhow.
SPEAKER_01But but but the point is is that God puts some Christian business owners in lesser economically um economic communities, I don't know how else to say it, and he puts some in richer ones. Yeah, just live at the median of where God has put you. And then um save for the future so that you're not a burden to anybody. I explain that in my book. There's a section on saving for the future. And then uh, if you have excess, give it away. Ask the Lord, how do I give this away? And and people will say, Well, wait a minute, what about my financial security? Are you kidding me? There's nobody financially secure, there's no retirement plan that's financially secure, independent. Our finances, Proverbs tells us over and over that wealth is fleeting and can fly away in an instant. So it's better to say, God, this this wealth belongs to you. How would you like me to use it? And then under his direction, give it away.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01To me, that's to me, that's the practical application.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that's um not to say that there's uh you don't want to be careless about, you know, just give it away because you have it and you feel guilty about it, but you know, be strategic about it, I would say. And um even one of the things that we've done is set up a separate account just for giving. Yeah. And so we are giving that's our giving fund. And it and you know, money goes in there automatically. Uh, and so it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get your account on on uh you know auto pay with uh with a charity, but if you're not yet sure exactly where you need to be giving consistently, put it into that separate account that you won't touch and that it'll be ready. Because that's what Paul said, right? Is you know, set something aside each week. Set it aside. He didn't say what what to do with it, uh necessarily, but set it aside. And um anything else you want to add to that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I would just say if you know how to if you know how to hear the voice of God, then you can ask God, you know, what do I do with this money? And God will tell you. Yeah. Um, and He will tell you pretty directly. Um, and I also recommend that you pray, you know, with your wife or your husband. And if both of you hear the same thing and the same amount, then you know you have confirmation right there and and and you better go do it. And so when Kathy and I, my wife and I, when we are faced with giving situations, we sit down and pray and we just say, Lord, um, how much do you want us? Do you want us? A, do you want us to give? And then B, if so, how much? And usually we hear yes, and usually we hear the same amount, and then that's what we give. And sometimes it doesn't make sense the amount. In other words, it's more than what I would have said, or sometimes it's less than what I would have anticipated. But when we hear the same amount, then we give.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Excellent. Well, Bill, thank you for sharing your time, wisdom with us, and for writing this book, A Christian Theology of Business Ownership. I know that um the the audience isn't yet massive for for this type of content, uh, having been at it for you know a number of years, but there it there are those among us that really are passionate about this stuff. And uh thank you for the putting your your uh hand to the plow because there's a lot of still a lot of field to plow in this uh theology of business conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh it's a it's a heavy book. It's a dense book. It took me five and a half years to write it. And it's a lot of it's from my experience. So but thank you for having me on, Darren. I really appreciate uh the time with you.
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