Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Al Eresman. He's back on the show. We actually did uh interview with him that you'll remember uh several episodes back on the Service Master Corporation. He did a deep dive into um kind of the transition that they made in leadership and culture and some of the lessons learned, both positive and negative. So be sure and go back and listen to that one if you haven't already. Um, Al is the executive in residence at the Seattle Pacific University School of Business, Government, and Economics, and the past director for the Center for Integrity in Business at Seattle Pacific University. He teaches business ethics and business and technology subjects at SPU and also edits ethics magazine. He's on the review board for our Center for Christianity and Businesses Christian Business Review here at HBU. In April 2001, Al completed a 32-year career at the Boeing Company, where for the last 10 years he was director of RD for computing and mathematics. And he holds a PhD in applied mathematics from Iowa State University. So he's uh he's quite a smart man and um quite a renaissance man as well. He's been on numerous boards for science and technology, including projects for the National Academy. And he is also a board member for several startup companies and has a passion for issues related to faith and work and serves on the board for of advisors for the Theology of Work Project and Kairos, which is a Christians and business organization in the Seattle area. Been married to Nancy for 59 years, and they have three children and seven grandchildren. And he's the author of several books, um, besides the one I mentioned about the service master story, including the one we're going to focus on today, which is the Accidental Executive Lessons on Business, Faith, and Calling from the Life of Joseph. Al, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Darren. Nice to be here. So, what can we learn about business leadership from the life of Joseph?
SPEAKER_03You know, I think we can learn uh from start to finish about a career. And it's interesting that throughout his life, we get little glimpses into different parts of what we can learn. And putting together as a whole, we see something about purpose. We see something about the importance of character, we see something about the importance of staying close to God in the work that we do. And all these lessons kind of pop out as you study the story with an eye toward thinking of Him as a person in a career and business.
SPEAKER_01And what are some of the specific lessons learned? Maybe some of the non-obvious ones, you know, we certainly heard about the story about Potiphar's wife and you know, being in church in Sunday school through the years and you know, just living a life of purity. What are some of the the lessons and maybe some of those non-obvious ones that you discovered during your uh your research into the life of Joseph?
SPEAKER_03Sure. So if you back up to the 37th chapter of Genesis, where we first meet Joseph, he's 17 years old. He has a dream about being a great leader. And you know, I'm sure that almost every business person, somewhere along their line, has had a dream of what they would do someday. And so, like Joseph, we have our dreams. But Joseph, when he had this dream, made it all about him, and so he goes to his brothers and ultimately to his father, tells them about his dream, tells them that they're gonna bow down to him someday, and they didn't take it very well because you see, he wasn't very aware of his environment. His brother's reaction was to sell him into slavery, and for 13 years, he toiled in obscurity, really. Yes, the story of resisting Potiphar's wife was uh a foundation of that, but for 13 years, until he was 30 years old, he was in a foreign land, in slavery and in prison. The important thing I learned from that is that um the development of our character is part of what God has for us in the workplace. When we encounter difficulties, challenges, we want to say, I can't wait till this is over. But we should say, what is God teaching me here? What can I learn here that will make me a better leader, a better person in the marketplace? And you know, this this seemed to go on and on, but we we get a glimpse of the way this lesson is affecting him. When two new prisoners came into the jail where he was overseeing things, and um it says that he observed that they were downcast, and it seemed to me that represents a shift of seeing things through the eyes of others rather than through himself, and as a result, when you get to the 40th chapter, when Joseph is brought out of prison and stands before Pharaoh, he is a very different person. Read, I would encourage you, your uh listeners, to read the discussion that he has with Pharaoh about Pharaoh's dream, and compare it with how Joseph reacted with his own dream. In the first case, it was about him, in the second case, it was about Pharaoh and his issues, and you see that shift is really important, and that's what God did in his life during those 13 years. That doesn't mean it was easy for him. In fact, I can only imagine at the end of the 40th chapter, where it says he had reminded the chief butler when he went back to Pharaoh, would you tell him that I don't belong in prison? And will you get me out of here? And the last line of that chapter says, But the chief butler forgot about Joseph. And the next chapter opens two full years later. I wonder what life was like for Joseph during those two years. False anticipation, perhaps, discouragement, but you see a different person on the other side. I think we don't spend enough time in the faith and work conversations thinking about how God uses those difficult times to shape our character. And I think one of the reasons why God has us in the workplace is to develop us as his people. So that's one uh lesson that we don't often think about. Uh, there are many others which I could talk about, but that's one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How do you kind of profile the personality of Joseph? I'm thinking about early on, he's got this dream of, you know, his his brothers would say, oh, this is just delusions of of grandeur as it might be diagnosed in in modern psychology. But really, this is uh seems like this is a guy that just has uh um an a deep need for significance. And I know it's one of the, it's actually one of the um the theme, what do they call them, themes in the strength finders assessment? Significance. Joseph probably had that. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I think he did, but I think what happens is that when we have that uh tendency toward uh seeking significance and purpose, which I think Joseph did all the way through, sometimes that can become about me instead of about how I can be an agent to make a difference for others. And God sometimes needs to work on our character to help us to use that strength in the right way. And I think what happened during those 13 years was that that was what Joseph was learning, and all of us need to have that learning, all of us have um some strengths that we want to use, but we want to make sure that they're done in a way that honors God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And when we look at the the promotion, Joseph's promotion from the the prison to the ruler of and I think that that's what was happening. Yeah. So so when he goes from the prison to the ruler of Egypt, I mean it's it's easy to just say, well, God did did all of that, and that's that's what you know, this was Joseph's destiny. And but what were the like was there any effort that Joseph kind of exerted to get to that point? Um, to to go from essentially the dungeon to where now he's put over all of Egypt.
SPEAKER_03So um let me make several observations about that. One is if you read carefully what he says in con in his conversation with Pharaoh, he never raises his own position as an issue. Yeah, you know, I thought I would be inclined to say, you know, I think I can help you, Pharaoh, but um, I've got a problem too. How about if we enter into an agreement here? I'll do this for you, you do this for me. And there is none of that present in the story. In fact, there's an amazing thing, another one of these lessons that seems fairly obscure until you see it. And that is that when Joseph is standing there, he answered Pharaoh's question. Here's what the dream meant. But then he went further. He said, and here's what I think you ought to do about it. And in doing that, it says the text says that all of Pharaoh's assistants were standing with him. Now, in a typical office situation, if you have a great idea, one of the things you have to be cognizant of is that someone might take that idea as their own and run with it. And it's called office politics. And you have to be really careful about that. Joseph had his confidence in God, and he kind of blew past that in a way that I find absolutely fascinating. He laid out the whole case and said, Here's what you ought to do about it. And then it was Pharaoh who said, Well, I need someone to run this project, and Joseph, you're the man. But then you go on and you see what Pharaoh did for Joseph, and you begin to realize um, in many ways, this is way too much power for any person. He said of Joseph, I'm going to give you a clothing allowance, I'm going to give you a compensation package, I'm going to give you prestige and status. People will go before you shouting, make way. And then Pharaoh says this great line no one will lift a hand or foot in all of Egypt without your permission. And as I contemplated thinking about having that said, I thought, he is at the most vulnerable position that he has been at in his life. For many of us, we can call on God readily when we're in times of pain and hurt. But when we're in times of success, we sometimes think that we are the author of that success. And it becomes about us. There's this part in 2 Chronicles that talks about Uzziah. And it says Uzziah was an inventor, he was a king, he was a general. And the line says, and he was greatly helped by God until he was strong. And when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his own destruction. He forgot about the Lord his God. That's a sobering statement. And I asked the question, how did Joseph avoid that when he had all this power? And in the story, you can see uh three things. The first one was that he carefully said to Pharaoh, I can't interpret dreams, but God can. So he was already standing in the presence of God, and that makes each of us not quite so big. The second thing we see is that Joseph had two sons, and I think there's something real about having two sons. I have two sons. You come home from work, they don't care what you did during the day, you're dad, you're not that person. And I think that that we all need the ordinary reminders in our lives that we are ordinary people. And the third thing we see that he did is he had a major project to accomplish. And the idea of thinking that all these things were a reward to him would be a mistake. Although we see CEOs doing this all the time, sadly. What he did is he recognized this is a 14-year project that he's undertaking that will affect the whole world. And so this idea that we are under God, that we are ordinary people, and that our position is a platform from which we do this work, uh, is a really important thing to hold us in account. So I think that um Joseph readily could have failed at that point. And I think it's those three things that held him in a position for us, and I don't know if Joseph had this, I intend to ask him someday. I'd love to have an interview with him of filling in gaps of the story that I don't know. Um, but for us, I think we also need a person around us who will be honest with us and who will call us when we are straying or getting too caught up in ourselves. And I don't know if Joseph had someone like that in his life, but the other three things are really important for him and for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wow. I mean, if there ever was a person who would be like just sort of in the natural, be justified in being selfish and a self-promoter. I mean, here's a guy that was sold by sold off by his brothers. I mean, he he already has this just deep need and and sense of of significance to live a life of significance. And then, I mean, there he is in in the prison, and now he's got an opportunity to not just get freed from prison, but to get, I mean, really the choice job and all the land. I mean, if you want, if you want to look at it that way, and um, and and you like you're like you're pointing out, he's still um the Lord has just done this work of humbling him and and um and he refining him to the point where he doesn't say I'm the guy. I mean, that that's what's so striking to me is that I mean, and that just flies in the face of so much of the the marketing wisdom that's out there nowadays is you know, you gotta sell yourself and you gotta brand yourself and you gotta um, and I mean, I I teach some of that to our authors and our publishing company. And and yet what what he's done is define he and I've also heard the wisdom that if you can define the problem um better than the the the person who has the problem, they're gonna you're the solution. I mean, you're you're it's just self-evident. And you know, maybe he had a sense of that that if he could, because I'm sure he wanted out of that prison.
SPEAKER_03Like I I know he did. I mean, you see it when he talked to the chief uh cupbearer uh about his dream. So um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yet that desperation doesn't come through at all. Um, when he's defining, I mean, he's talking like he's he's already in the position, you know, um, just with such confidence and not that um that sense of desperation, like, you know, like the least you could do is get me out of prison, Pharaoh. You know, I I told you this. You know, there was none of that.
SPEAKER_03Um, one of the questions that came up in my mind then at that point is how do I explain the behavior with his brothers where he played tricks on them when they showed up and accused them and he planted uh the money back in their sacks and all that. But if you read it carefully, one of the things you'll observe uh is that the place where he identified himself and announced his forgiveness was when finally one of his brothers said, Don't hold Benjamin here. That would kill our father. Hold me instead and send Benjamin back to his father. And that was the first time as I read the story that his brothers did something that was more than thinking about themselves. And it was at that point that Joseph could offer forgiveness. Because until a person comes to a place where they uh recognize that they have done wrong, um, offering forgiveness often doesn't have any impact. And so that dramatic scene where he offered forgiveness, where he acknowledged that God had him in this place and not them, it was uh it was beautiful, but it came at a time when they sought forgiveness. But it's interesting also, and this is another thing that I think business leaders need to learn when you offer forgiveness to someone, it it doesn't always take the first time. They don't necessarily, it takes a while to restore that confidence and relationship. So when their father died in the 50th chapter, it says uh the brothers came to him and said, Our father said to say to you that you should treat us kindly, even though he's not here. I believe that they totally made that up. And I find it actually quite humorous. Um, but Joseph was reminded of a lesson we all face that you can forgive a person, but that doesn't restore the relationship. You need to do it again and again and again in order to restore that relationship. And so in the 50th chapter and 32nd verse, I think he said, You did intend it for evil, but God intended it for good. The purpose of why he was there showed through so clearly to Joseph that he could announce this to his brothers and it overcame all of the other things that had happened.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, wow. And I love how Pharaoh gives him a new name, right? I mean, he gives him this new Egyptian name, and and and if people were because that's the that's a question sometimes of in faith and work is well, we we love that quote by Saint Francis about uh, you know, share the gospel, always if necessary, use words. Um, but then it's it's like, well, if you don't tell them. Like who's who the source of this work ethic is or this character uh showing up in the in in the workplace in a difficult ethical decision that was made. If you don't the I mean the joy that we have or ought to have as Christians in the workplace in the face of you know a lot of um uh just negativity, um it, you know, it's like who do we give credit to? But right Pharaoh says, your name is your name is now God listens, like that that's your name, Joe. That's just so it was so evident that he he knows the source of where Joseph is is deriving this discernment and this wisdom and everything that he's carrying, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a great point, Darren. And I would add uh to that that if you look carefully at the way he talked to Joseph, to Pharaoh, it wasn't Pharaoh, this is what you need to do. He said rather, Pharaoh, this is what God has done for me. And so he wasn't demanding in that way, but he was testifying in a way of what God had done in his life and inviting further conversation. And I think that um I encourage people to look at the dialogue that he had with Pharaoh about the way he presented his God, but the way he was careful in how he demanded uh what the other person do as a model for us in the workplace with our colleagues, this is what God has done for me. And I think that it can invite questions, it can invite um conversation in a way that is very different from someone who says, if you don't believe this way, then you are going to be in trouble. And he didn't say that. And and I I just I I love the way he handled the conversation, and I think it's a great model for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I don't want to derail us here, but I have to ask this question because I've heard people say this um from behind pulpits and that kind of thing, um, that that Joseph was uh a socialist or even a communist. Um, what do you what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think we have terms that we like to use in a pejorative way, whether it's socialist or for the other side, a capitalist. Um and I I think if you look carefully at the way Joseph dealt with situations, uh, you can't so easily classify him. So at the end, and I do intend to ask him about this at one point, when the people ran out of money, on the one hand, he took on their uh all their money, all their land, and they became servants. On the other hand, what he said was you can continue to live there and raise your crops, and 20% will be required uh as a tax on you because of the position you're in. And 20%, you know, it could have been 80%, could have been five, and twenty percent seemed like a really interesting solution to me, and it seemed like he was out there wanting to keep them able to support themselves and yet to pay back a debt that they owed. And uh, I just like to ask him how he came up with that, uh, because I find it a really interesting and intriguing solution.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So whether I can classify him as a communist or a capitalist, I don't think either one. I think there is some nuance here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well said. So um uh the book is The Accidental Executive Lessons on Business, Faith, and Calling from the Life of Joseph. Um before I ask you this final question, um, I'll uh is there anything else that you want people to do? Like places that people can connect with you. Uh theologyofwork.org would be one place. Anything else you want to tell people about that you're doing how they can get involved?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I could um I'm happy to take uh emails, uherisman at spu.edu is a is a good one. Um and I'm working on a website, which unfortunately isn't up yet. So uh I can't do that yet. Um, but I'm happy to have dialogue about these things because um, you know, the thing I liked about the story is that it starts with scripture. So when I wrote the service master book, it actually started with an example and illustrated a lot of points from scripture. This one starts with scripture and illustrates a lot of points about how we live today. And I think both of these modes of uh understanding as a Christian is important. Asking the question, how do I deal with this situation is important. But starting with the scripture and say, what can I learn from the scripture about my work? Uh, that's important as well. So I encourage people to engage deeply with the scripture and to think about this. And that's really what we've done in the Theology of Work project is we've written a commentary on what every book of the Bible has to say about our daily work. And it's a free resource. So if you want out to theologyofwork.org and simply click on the Bible commentary and then clicked on a book of the Bible, you would bring up a document that discusses what we can learn from that particular book. Uh, Genesis, Matthew, Colossians are pretty obvious. Psalm Solomon and Revelation might seem more unlikely, but there's insight for our work in those as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Excellent. So wrapping it up here, um, for those of us who who would would like to be viewed as having the solution to the at least some of the world's problems, the ones that God has called us to address, what's the what's sort of the Joseph's model? Um, what would he say as as maybe one takeaway of many that we could read about in Joseph's story in the Bible, that you really draw out in your book, The Accidental Executive. But what would be one action you'd want people to take?
SPEAKER_03I think um a lot of times we fall into the trap of saying, if I were in charge, then I would do this. And you know, Joseph got a chance to do that later in his life. But in the earlier part of his life, he was not in charge. And yet he sought to be faithful to God. And so it says, even when he was in prison, the prison warden saw how faithful and hardworking he was, and he put him in charge of the other prisoners. And it was through that that he was able to have the dialogue with the chief cupbearer and ultimately do what he did. So I would say that we're faithful to God wherever he's placed us, and wherever we are, we can have some level of influence, not total control, not total power, but some level of influence. And we sometimes like to think if I could only make this call, and we ignore the call that we can make in the position where we are by asking a question, by raising an issue, by doing our work faithfully. And so, how do we do as Joseph did in those times of being in slavery and in prison? How do we carry out our work in that way as people of influence? Jesus called us to be salt and light in our world, not to run our world. And by being sol and light, we can have an influence and make a difference wherever God has placed us.
SPEAKER_01Well said. Uh, again, you've been listening to Al Eyersman, theology of work.org. The book is the The Accidental Executive Lessons on Business, Faith, and Calling from the Life of Joseph. Al, thanks again for coming on, coming back on the show. And um, we're we're certainly better for it. Appreciate you helping us um grow today and and get another perspective of what uh God's word has to teach us about our work life.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, uh, Darren, and it was always a always a pleasure to be with you. I love your questions.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.