Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dave Haytag. Dave is president and co-owner of Edgerton Gear Incorporated, a second-generation family business in Burrell, Wisconsin, where he has worked for over 30 years. Dave has developed a culture that empowers people to make decisions that affect their work and that creates a vision and employees for the significant contribution they can make to the world through their calling in the workplace. He's a journeyman, machinist, has a BA from University of California, Irvine, Masters of Christian Studies from Regent College in Vancouver, BC, and a doctorate from Backee Graduate University, developing and developing a curriculum called Craftsman with Character. This course introduces high school students to the trades and manufacturing as an excellent career path while developing character and soft skills. And he's the author of the new book, Good Work: How Blue Collar Business Can Change Lives, Communities, and the World. Dave, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast. Darren, thanks for having me. It's great to meet you and great to be here. So, what was wrong with Edgerton gear that caused you to leave back in your early 20s? Oh, that's a loaded question.
SPEAKER_03Well, um, like a lot of manufacturing companies, blue collar back in the 70s and 80s, uh, dirty, dark, and dangerous is often how companies like ours are referred to. It's manual labor, lots of grease, lots of oil. But was particularly bad or difficult for me is there's been a legacy of alcoholism in our family for generations. And so that entered into the family business to the point where we had a quarter barrel of beer in the lunchroom refrigerator. There's parties every night after work, there was pornography everywhere, and it was just a uh just a dark place. And I but along with that, when I became a believer at age 19, I could not fathom how making gears had anything to do with quote ministry or the kingdom. So I was one of these young guys who Lord got a hold of me at 19. You're all zealous, excited to go, quote, serve the Lord. So what do you do? You go into youth work, you go into you know pastoral ministry, you go to seminary, you do your short-term mission work. And uh that's probably one of the main factors that got me out of here is that I couldn't see how business had anything to do with the kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And so as a youth minister, I'm I'm sure there were many times where you thought, well, I'm I'm I'm trying so hard to get these youth to come to the the youth meetings. I don't know whether it was on Wednesday nights or Sunday mornings. And and meanwhile, if you were back at the in the shop, you would be you would have these youth, you know, young people and an opportunity to minister to them. You've got this captive audience of people who are dependent on your company for their livelihood. And what a great opportunity to to make disciples, right? Were you is that what was kind of going through your head?
SPEAKER_03Well, no, because I didn't have that concept in mind at all at that point. Because again, to me, it was just we're just making gears and it was just a paycheck, right? And that was how our family survived. But it wasn't until years later when when God really, I would say, called us back here, you know, literally 30 years ago. Um, because I I've often said it was the hole in my faith. I could see God work in inner city work in Mexico and all these different places that we had had done, quote, ministry. And God made it really clear when I was at Regent College, you need to go back to the family business. You you need to understand how I could reach your family and how I'm relevant, even in a dirty, dark, and dangerous place like a gear shop. So it took me a long time, you know, and I know your listeners are much more advanced than I was back then, but I didn't really catch on for a long time that that working and business could be incredibly impactful for the kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Was there a moment or or maybe a personal encounter with somebody there in the shop where the light bulb just kind of went on that wow, God is moving in this place and I have an opportunity to be a part of what he's wanting to do in the lives of these workers?
SPEAKER_03Well, I let me go back to I went to uh two Urbana mission conferences when I was in my early 20s, and I went up and down the aisle to all the mission agencies and said, Is it can anybody use a journeyman machinist? I didn't even get a maybe. So, so my worldview was again, it was reinforced that well, God's not interested in in our family business or business, period. But I had amazing mentors. Um, Pete Hammond from Intervarsity was one, Paul Stevens up at Regent College is another, and they really helped me understand and see that no business really is impactful, and we have to be where God calls us to. So we came back here full of faith and hope, and yes, we're gonna serve the this blue-collar world. And the first 10 years were absolutely miserable, and uh, and I can't even express how terrible it was because we were called to come back and change a culture, you know, and bring Kingdom Valleys into a place that again, the beer drinking, the pornography, the backstabbing, the infighting. And so I've done enough study on systems theory that when you try to implement change, and in fact, in any business or any organization, you bring change into it, you get tremendous turnover, you get people that try to sabotage it. And so for the first 10 years, we're going, Lord, really? Um, where's the fruit? Well, this is horrible. And uh our marriage almost didn't survive because it was so stressful. So I would say after 10 years, we started seeing impact where people were starting to embrace the values that we're trying to bring of humility and honesty and communication and integrity. But but I think there's often a myth or or I don't know what you would call it, that you would say, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna be zealous for the Lord, I'm gonna see instant results. And I think God often calls us to places to suffer and to be a servant. And the results often take a long, long time that we're hoping for.
SPEAKER_01So when you came back, did you did you take over the company or was your your dad still at the CEO?
SPEAKER_03Or yeah, my my dad was still running this company and he had begged me to come back for years because he was getting uh he was just getting worn out, you know, he was getting older, the stress was eating him up. So and and he wasn't a a believer, he was an atheist also. So when when I finally felt called to come back, and my wife and I got together with my mom and dad uh at Christmas and said, Hey, what what would you think if we came back and and I helped take over the business and restructure it? He was all excited, and I said, Yeah, but dad, our leadership styles are radically different, and it's probably gonna get really hard. We're probably gonna have some big arguments in the shop, and and it did, and we did. And his his view of of work, he was you know incredibly hardworking, had great values, but but the relational part of it with his guys, he'd hire guys out of the bars, you know, without really vetting them. And so after about six months, he said, Okay, I'm I think I'm ready to retire. Your style is very much different. You do what you want with the company. He could understand a lot of things that I was doing, and it took uh he he partly retired, and then I think it was probably by year two, uh, he was completely out of the business and gave me free reign to to uh to deal with this mess.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wow. And that that sounds like um an at least initially, kind of an unequally yoked type of uh an arrangement, which people can just we can sense the uh the the pain that you were going through. Um yeah, yeah, it it was.
SPEAKER_03Um, you have two different value systems, and and it was confusing because he he built the company on quality, value, and service, really strong foundational values. But the other part of it with the alcoholism, the partying, uh I mean, I got so many stories. Any of your listeners that have come from alcoholic backgrounds, it it's what you think is normal and healthy is not, and so all of that dysfunction wasn't so deeply entangled into the family business, the culture of the shop, that changing that was excruciatingly slow. And we started hiring folks for character and and uh trying to find people that could really adhere to our value system, and and I and it wasn't that I could just get rid of the other guys that were that were my dad's drinking buddies. I had to I had to learn how to love them and get along with them and help them be different, and that's when the cultural part of it just is really difficult when you try to love folks who don't agree with you and your and your management style at all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So you didn't uh you didn't kind of sweep through there and and just sort of take out the previous regime, you just kind of kept everybody in their places all through those first several years?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because everybody knew I'd gone, I'd move out to California and everybody thought I was a pastor, I'd gone to do something religious, you know. My dad couldn't my dad couldn't even talk about it. He he was embarrassed. I mean, to be honest, if I was honest about what I was what he thought I was doing. So I made a commitment that uh I wasn't gonna come back and be a Bible thumper, I wasn't gonna come back and say, hey, this is who we are, we're all gonna be you know Jesus followers, we're gonna serve God. They weren't open to that any of that. And so to earn their trust as a leader, I had to I had to live out the faith and earn that trust over the years, right? And and so and I and out of respect to my dad, I I I couldn't just clean house.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh so it was a it was a long um journey of just being obedient and and trying to earn. I mean, people often throw around that quote from Saint Francis, you know, uh preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words. And to me, um words were the last thing I could use. I had to show love and humility, but yet yet uh integrity and honesty and strength and discipline when it was warranted, and really setting this culture of excellence that I expected and demanded everybody to live up to. It wasn't it wasn't that I expected everybody to share my faith, but it I I demanded that we have shared values. And if you couldn't adhere adhere to our corporate values of who we are as a company, um, you're free to leave. But this is who we are, and that that's kind of where that the hill that I died on. That's a we have to we have to have shared values.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Was there a moment or a story you could share where you really sense that things are starting to shift?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, one of the obvious ones was when my dad removed the quarter barrel himself. And uh I because I I felt I couldn't do that. That was his that was his thing, you know. And so I still remember the day when I was in the lunchroom and he was emptying the emptying the all the beer had gone stale. So he was emptying into a sink, and he was he was angry and frustrated. He thought, what a waste we're pouring all this beer down the sink. But that was a very powerful symbolic uh symbol, simply because the parties after work had stopped. And it was communicated that if you want a future here, you don't come to work drunk, you don't stay after and party every night. And and that was, you know, that was one major symbol. I think the other ones that were similar after that were younger guys coming up to me and saying, you know, this is totally different. Can can can we how do we continue on like this? And then when you see employees that were trying that I put in I put the employees in charge of hiring new staff eventually. And the and one thing that really strikes me even today, when our staff is hiring new staff, the number one quality they look for, and they smell it out so well, humility. They want humility to be the defining uh character quality of any person that works here because they've come to recognize that if you don't have humility, it creates so many different problems. So it's things like that when you see these kingdom values start to take root that you start seeing replicated and emulated by your staff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Tell us what happened when one of your customers got bought out, and then the parent company decided they wanted you to just all of a sudden lower your prices by two percent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And well, you know, we've had we have a couple stories like that, but the one I write about is uh I call them the hatchet man. And back then, and it still happens uh, I think a lot today, but the the mantra for some of these larger corporations is you know, you got to cut your prices. The more business that we give you, the lower your prices have to be. And we had saved this one particular company by by some innovation that we came up with with a gear material and and just how we made our parts. We saved them several hundred thousand dollars in the first year alone. And shortly after that, this when this company got bought out, the larger corporation brought in a gentleman to to basically demand a price reduction. And I had to drive up to Green Bay, you know, we're here in Wisconsin, and I thought this is not gonna go well, and went into the room, conference room, and it was a very stressful, you could cut the tension in the air. Sat down. The purchasing agents knew me because we had worked together for a number of years, but this hatchet man sat down and he said, Well, you've done this much work for us in the last two years, and I think it's only right if you want to continue to work with us that you have to give a 2% reduction. I said, Hold it. Life insurance, health insurance, utilities, wages, nothing else has gone down. Why would we do that? We have to stay profitable. We're not ripping you off, we're giving you a very fair, fair price. It's not going to happen. And then he talks this morning, he goes, Well, it's it's gonna happen. If you want to stay working with us, you have to give us a 2% reduction. And I said, You know, you have no no, and I was nice, I was very respectful. I mean, you have to be humble because it is your customer. But I said, you know, you don't really know the history of how much we've saved you over the years, and we are very good at what we do, at what we do. We're very, very fair. We're not going to give you that reduction. And he said, Yes, you are. And I got up and I walked out, and I said, It's not gonna happen. And which was really which was nerve-wracking when you're when you're talking to one of your larger customers that way. But I said, you know, we've been fair and we cannot stay in business if we don't make a fair profit. So I walked out and the purchasing agent came running after me. And I and she says, Dave, Dave, wait, wait. And I said, What? She goes, That was awesome. I go, What do you mean that was awesome? She goes, You're the first vendor who has stood up to him because we all feel the same as you do. And she said, If you had if you had given in to him, I would have been so disappointed. And I said, Why? And she was because that would have proven that you weren't giving us your best price. And the fact that you stood your ground, you know, validated what we believed about you. And even today, and that was 20 years ago, they're still one of our top five customers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, wow. I mean, that's that's let your yes be yes and your no be no.
SPEAKER_03Oh, and it's hard. Some I mean, your livelihood is at stake, and and and we've had another customer that's our larger customer, even now, our largest account. Uh, they demanded, and your cut, your your listeners will probably reappreciate this, but some companies they don't want to pay you for 90 or 120 days, they try to stretch out the payment terms as long as possible. Yeah, and and this company said, you know what, um, we're gonna make we're not gonna pay for 120 days. And I said, That's not acceptable. I mean, we we want to get paid within 30 at the most 60 days, and it got so bad we started holding parts, we wouldn't ship them until they got caught up. And we're talking tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake. And their CEO actually told their purchasing agents if Edgerton Gear won't allow us to do that, find another gear shop, just find someone. And they had burned bridges all across the US by treating their vendors that way of playing with their money. And in that case, again, I said, you know what? Um, I know who we are, I know how much we save you, I know how we serve you. I have all the confidence in the world that you're not going to find a better gear shop. But if that's what you feel you have to do, go ahead. And uh, they tried, they actually went out and got quotes from another bun, a bunch of different gear shops, and they came back and they sit with their kind of hat in hand and said, uh, yeah, well, uh, you're good. We'll we'll we'll meet your conditions.
SPEAKER_01So wow, good for you. Um, I mean, I hope that encourages somebody out there that's getting squeezed on their their pricing. You know, I know that a lot of the big box companies, if you're selling products in those those stores, they they they give the same kind of squeeze and see how low they can they can get them, you know, without regard to the the people at the other end whose you know, healthcare and you know all the other prices are going up. Like why should why should it yours go down?
SPEAKER_03Um well exactly. And and and that's a it's a faith issue, I think, a lot of times for us, because Lord, you have brought these customers to us. We're doing our best to treat them fair, but we'd and and it really boils down to what's a fair profit. You know, we have profit is not a dirty word, as we know. It it's the lifeblood of our businesses. And I think when we explain to our customers and give them the service that we do and treat them as we want to be treated, they have the respect and they listen, you know, and we've earned their right the right to be listened to, and we've set a bar of what it means to be a good supplier for them. And when you help them understand that it's not all about price, it's about that relationship, it's being there when they need you and when they're in trouble, and giving them the service and delivering on time and keeping your word and doing what you say you're gonna you're gonna do. That all plays into that relationship with that customer that adds a ton of value besides just price.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well said. Dave, what's your favorite Bible passage related to business and entrepreneurship?
SPEAKER_03Well, the one that I'm camped out on currently, I mean, boy, I got a number of them, but um let me go back. I have two, but the big one that I think defines business for us is Matthew 633. You know, seek, you know, when they when they ask them, you know, when Jesus is going through his Sermon on the Mount, seek it's all those things about, you know, look at the birds of the air, he takes care of them and and the flowers of the field. And Jesus says, but seek first God's kingdom, and all of these things will be added to you as well. Um, or seek God's kingdom and his righteousness, and that's a key word, and his righteousness. So Dallas Willard defines righteousness as true, true inner goodness. So I spent years trying to understand what it means to seek God's kingdom in a gear shop? What does that really look like? And when he says this, and his righteousness and his goodness, that has I I literally spent years trying to understand that. And I've come to believe and understand that God's power in God's kingdom is about God's goodness, and we throw that word around a lot. But what does goodness really look like every day in every decision in how we treat our staff, how we treat our customers, how we quote a job, how we deliver it, what's the quality standards that we're trying to hit? Because goodness is it's not this, it's not just an adjective, it's a powerful, it's a powerful construct that God calls us to live out. And if God is ultimately good, in fact, the more I think about this and have dealt on, you know, kind of meditate on it. When Moses back in Exodus was was so discouraged and frustrated with his with the leadership of of the Israelites, he went back up on the mountain. He said, Lord, I've tried everything that I can to serve you. Show me your glory. And God responds, if you read that carefully, he says, I will indeed cause all of my goodness to pass before you. So our what I teach in our shop, in everything we do, are we emulating goodness? Do we treat others the way we want to be treated? And I think, especially in today's polarized world, I think goodness is a superpower that can really change our communities and change our employees' lives.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I love that. I mean, it's right there in the in the creation account, you know, when everything. God made he said at the end of it and it was good. It was good. You're right. It wasn't it wasn't good enough, or it wasn't, you know, and that that's so much of what we do in in business oftentimes is oh well it's you know it's good enough, or you know, what's the what will the market bear and what what's the going rate and you know how like what are the what are the other guys doing? Um but I mean when God said it was good, I mean there was no other standard for them to him to compare it to. It wasn't like he was comparing it to the other God on you know in the other universe or something like that.
SPEAKER_03Um well that's a great point, you know, and and that drove home to me recently with one of our young guys, apprentices that that was a D student in high school. We got him in here, put him through our craftsmith character course that that I've I've uh you and I have talked about previously. But he was a throwaway kid, D student. He got into our course, he got a worldview, he became an A student, went to tech school, dean's list. And recently a little movie was made about him and one of our other young guys on how their lives were changed. Film company came in and did it for free because they thought it was such an amazing story about these two young guys. And Andy has a line that he says, you know, it's often it's often said, Well, that's good enough. He goes, Here at Edgerton Gear. No, no, it's not Edgerton gear good. Good enough is not good enough. And uh, and and to hear him grasp that that we we are called to set a standard as as God's workers, and that is such a light, you know. We it's not just about preaching the gospel or going out and sharing track, you know. No, it is about our work talks so strongly, speaks so strongly of God's goodness when we when we emulate that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's the title of your book is good work, how blue collar business can change lives, communities, and the world. And um, as we wrap it up, uh Dave, if you could also share with us about the the craftsman with character program and what that's all about.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was one of these what I call lost shop kids, where our high schools are full of kids who don't fit well in social studies, English classes, history classes, but they they they're tactile learners, they learn through their hands working in the wood shop, in the machine shop, auto mechanics, whatever. And we have in every school, I mean, every population has a number of students, but and it's typically weighted towards boys that learn not in sitting in a desk, but out by doing things. So when we recognize those, those are the at-risk kids often in our schools. I realize that in our industry and in the trades, we have an aging demographic. We are desperate for young folks to come into our our industries. Um, when I was up at our high school a number of years ago, I realized boy, these kids were me. That's the way I was in high school. So our course that we do, and and we're struggling with our workers. And you put out an ad, you can't hire anybody, skilled machinists. You know, we're they're like free agents, you know, we're just trying to trade them back and forth. So we said, you know, we need to develop a whole new workforce. Um, but it was more than that. It was how do we help kids in our community really have a sense of purpose and identity and calling? Because I often say that we all are created for two reasons. What two of our biggest needs are a sense of purpose, and we need to be in relationship. That's why God wired us. So we've taken these kids into our company, and the course is a semester-long course in the high school where four days a week they're mentored out in the job, out in the shop, and now with about five or six other businesses in our community, that they just go out and see what's out there, what opportunities, blue-collar opportunities working with their hands are are there. It could be an auto mechanics, shop, gears shop, could be a HVAC company, whatever. And then one day a week, I get them in a classroom where we explore the worldview and we and then we really kind of deconstruct it. You know, do you think money's gonna make you happy? Do you think, you know, power sex, you know, having that truck, whatever. And we really break it down to a point saying, you know really, what's gonna make you happy? And and it's really having that sense of purpose, that sense of calling and and doing something worthwhile. And we have a craftsman code that we teach them. The first one that they have to memorize is I am not the center of the universe. The second one is I do not know everything, or nearly as much as I think I do. And we go, and there's six of them. And if you go on our website, craftsmanwithcharacter.org, you'll you'll see all of them. But number four is the world needs me. And to see a kid who has been tossed aside by maybe their parents or their school or society really taken into their gut that the world needs me, really. I I have something to offer to my world. I'm created here for a purpose. Um, we've been doing it for nine years now, and to see the transformation of these kids, um, you know, just to go from I'm worthless to I'm here for a purpose is just powerful. Um, it's taken the average age in our shop down to 28 now. We have a lot of young people. We've got a lot, and other businesses in our community have hired some of these folks too. And it's it's you know, I look at our society right now and and oh my gosh, do we need young people that that need friends and apprenticeships and opportunities to just to have people guide them and care for them? Yeah. You know, so so we often say it, you know, in summary, no matter what business that you're in, it's not about products and services. We're all in the people business, you know, and as a gear shop, that's our primary calling is is to people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, this is uh this is incredibly needed. I mean, I I was a prodigal son or you know, around 16, 17 years old. And one of the ways that I one of the main ways that I learned to be a prodigal son was from the workplace. You know, I got my first job working in restaurants and working with a bunch of other prodigals, and um, and just really my life was was derailed from God's purpose for me. And um, and it's so backwards from the Hebrew model where a young person goes to work in their father's shop, right? I mean, like Jesus, and and you learn it, you learn a trade, you learn a way to make an income. And and through that, as we all know, I mean, you discover a sense of purpose and contribution to um to your society. And and so I I just love the the work that you're doing, and I'm just uh excited to and anticipating how God's gonna continue to expand that into uh into other companies and other schools, and just so thankful that he's given you uh uh an opportunity to deliver that into public schools. Um that's and then bring those partnerships with um with the businesses like like yours.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, and and it is exciting for us. And and I'm I'm almost 59, and I marvel at, and I I guess I would kind of close with this that I never wanted to come back to this gear shop. You know, this is the last place on the planet that I thought God could use me and that that I would find any sense of purpose. And now it's my happy place, it's my safe place. And I marvel that over 30 years, this place that I just thought there's no way it could ever be meaningful for the kingdom of God is now a place where people's lives are being transformed and changed, and we can provide a model encouragement for other folks to do the same. My my other favorite verse right now is Ephesians 3:20. Now, to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine according to his power at work within us, you know, to his glory. And I sit back now and I just marvel at all that God has done, you know, just by hanging in here for the past 30 years.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for doing it. Um we need you. Um appreciate you, Dave. Thanks for sharing with our audience today and helping us grow. We're all better for it.
SPEAKER_03Well, thanks, Darren. It is an honor and a privilege to meet you and to be here with you and have an audience. So thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01And edgertongear.com is the website for the the company. Um, E D G E R T-O-N-G-E-A-R.com. And then you can learn about craftsmen with character by going to craftsmenwithcharacter.org. And um, and we'll have those links in the show notes. Uh, thanks again, Dave. Thanks, dude.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.