Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Paul Mykolski. Paul is the founder of Integris LLC, a law firm providing integrity advice and legal counsel to clients serious about faith and work integration. Paul graduated from Harvard College. We don't always mention everybody's alma mater, but we'll mention that he was Magna Cum law of Harvard College in 1983 and also in of Harvard Law School in 1986. So he's uh he's one smart cookie. Um he became a partner with Kravath. Am I saying that right? Krav. Kravath, Kravath, Swain, and more. Uh, and for over 22 years practiced corporate law in New York and London. Among other honors, Paul was recognized in Chambers USA, America's leading lawyers for business in 2006 and 2007, and Chambers Global, the world's leading lawyers in 2008 and 2009, and New York Super Lawyers. Wow, it's like uh like must be vigilantes out there in 2007 and 2008. And uh since 2020, uh January, he's been publishing a weekly blog on faith and work integration at integriosity.com. And um, we'll have the link to that in the show notes in case you have an issue with the spelling. Uh, Paul, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Darren. Great to be with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and thanks for your patience on uh getting this interview together while I was recovering from COVID.
SPEAKER_02Uh that was the only timing, Darren. This is this is when we were meant to be doing it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, indeed. So um there was a particular article that you wrote that caught my attention from integriosity.com. And in that article, you said, unfortunately, much faith and work content and rhetoric leads to well-intentioned what leads well-intentioned leaders astray, and they end up with a placebo instead of the red pill. Um, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Well, Darren, the uh the red pill refers to the matrix, which is pretty timely right now, giving that there's a new episode that's going to be uh coming out. And I, in these blogs, I've set up a red pill being business a better way, a new way of doing business, and the blue pill being business as usual, business the way the world conducts business. And if you ever saw the matrix, you would know that um Morpheus says, the world has been pulled over your eyes. You're a slave, born to bondage. And he tells Neo about this world of the Matrix, and then he tells him that he can take the blue pill and go back to bed and believe whatever you want to believe, or you can take the red pill, and he says, I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. And then he says, Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more. And so I set up this as being the blue pill is really that's that's business as usual. If that's what a business person wants to take and just want to, they want to just go back and go back to bed and practice their their businesses, the world does they can. The red pill that that I'm trying to lay out is what I believe is is business the way God intends it, God's purpose for business. And I think in that pursuit, and there are so many business leaders who really want that red pill. They really want to pursue business the way God wants them to pursue it. Uh, but along the path, what I've seen, and this is over the last you know, 15 or 20 years, what I've seen is people get led astray. They get led astray by getting incomplete information, by getting misinformation, by getting pure theology, sometimes getting bad theology.
SPEAKER_01And you're talking about specifically people that are somewhat dialed into the faith and work conversation, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, at various levels, right? I think there are, I to me, I think there are three gaps that that a business person needs to get over to really be integrating their faith and their work together, right? The first is what I call the Sunday-Munday gap. That's just recognizing that their faith has something to do with their life outside of church, outside of Saturday or Sunday, whenever they happen to practice their faith, that it actually has meaning in their life, right? Some never get past that. The second, assuming you can get past that gap, the second gap, I think, is the sacred and secular gap. And that's understanding that not only does my faith have something to do with my work, my work is actually sacred in and of itself. Very few people, it seems, actually get to that place in that in the integration. If they can get there, the third is a knowing doing gap. How do I actually take this knowledge and do something with it? Right. So I talk about five placebos, five things that can be presented and look like they're the path to the red pill of business a better way, but really can lead people astray. The first one, very common, I call the four-hour content pill. Anyone who's involved in faith and work and the faith and work movement knows that there is no shortage of content. There are hundreds and hundreds of books, there are conferences, there are coaches, there are cohorts, there's lots out there. There's no shortage of it. The problem is a leader who hears about integrating their faith and their work in a sermon, or they or they read a book, or they go to a conference, and they get convicted that they're supposed to do something, but all they have is this information.
SPEAKER_03It's sort of it's sort of faith without the context of how to apply it in their work. And the second the second placebo is what I call the save or give bill. So this is the person who hears a classic message of business is a platform for doing kingdom work.
SPEAKER_02And there are only two things that you legitimately can do from the platform of business.
SPEAKER_03One is evangelize people, the other is give money to people who evangelize people, or serve the poor, or give money to people who serve the poor. The third placebo is one I call the add some faith bill.
SPEAKER_02Add some faith is actually a typical language of the faith and work movement.
SPEAKER_03Someone says to a business leader, they hear integrate your faith into your work.
SPEAKER_02Max Dupree, the former chairman of Herman Miller Furniture, apparently once said talking about integrating your faith into your work is like talking about integrating your marriage into your sex life completely backwards. What it leads someone to think is that all they have to do is somehow figure out a way to throw some of their faith into their work. The fourth placebo is I call the bless you pill.
SPEAKER_03And this is faith as an ATM password.
SPEAKER_02It turns it turns your faith in the work context into just another six sigma. So here what you often hear, and this is again, this comes from the very, very best intention um leaders as well as people who are talking about faith and work.
SPEAKER_03And they say, if you integrate your faith into your work, God will bless your business. Your business will grow, your profits will increase, God will bless you. That's really the prosperity gospel applied to faith and work integration.
SPEAKER_02And the fifth of the placebos is what I call the success first pill. And that's what the message of integrate your faith when the time is right. Integrate your faith when you get your business up and running, integrate your faith once you've become successful. So I think it's helpful to then now see what are the side roads that these take you down each one of these different different placebos.
SPEAKER_01But isn't it kind of all of these things um in terms of like what the red pill is? Because I mean, God's certainly we we have to say God's not against success. I mean, I I would like to say that um the Lord delights in the prosperity of his servants, you know, for example, it says that in the book of Psalms. So this is not, these are not mutually exclusive, right? I mean, certainly um with the savor give pill, like there is an aspect of giving from the overflow of you know how God has blessed you. And um, but what what is the can you kind of further define what the red pill is um in contrast with what these placebos are?
SPEAKER_02Sure. And I and I think it's and don't get me wrong, none of these are bad in and of themselves. And the paths, the side roads we'll talk about, none of them are bad in and of themselves. But I think that they miss the best. You know, Ed Silvoso in his recent book, Ecclesia, has a great quote. He says, the enemy of the best is the good, because by being so satisfying, it deprives us of the hunger for the much more that in this case God has in store. And I think that each of these paths, what they do is they can create a feel-good situation where a leader begins down this side road rather than a path of what I believe is God's purpose for business. They head down a side road and they get affirmation. They get affirmation from those in the faith and work movement, they get affirmation from the church broadly defined, they get affirmation from colleagues. And they miss three things. One is they miss the full purpose for the organization, for what their business could be doing in God's kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Which is which is what? What is that purpose?
SPEAKER_02Well, I believe that the purpose, uh, there are three purposes for business to humanize people, to beautify the world, and to glorify God. Ultimately, our purpose is to glorify God. I mean, if you look at scripture, that is why we're here to glorify God. And if you think about the fact that an organization is simply a collection of people working together toward a common purpose, if the purpose of each human being that God created is to glorify God, it must be that the purpose of a collection of human beings working together still has to be to glorify God. And I think that what God cares about are people.
SPEAKER_03He cares about people, he cares about his creation.
SPEAKER_02What some of these side roads allow people allow businesses to do is to feel like they are pursuing God's purpose when the heart of the organization remains about profit. And we learn from scripture that we can't serve two masters. And I think there is a misconception that you can be serving the master of profit as purpose and still be pursuing other purposes, God's purposes for the business. But if profit remains the purpose of a business, if that is the end of the business, by definition, people can never be more than tools of production to be manipulated and managed toward that end. You must have only one, you can really have one real purpose. And there are sort of five minds I think a business person has to go through to actually begin to see God's purpose for their organization.
SPEAKER_01I guess the the reason why we tend to want to gravitate toward the what you refer to as placebos is that they're measurable. Um, you know, for example, how much your company is giving or how much you give as an individual charitably is measurable, like the bottom line is very measurable. And we can put on a Christian lens and say, okay, well, if I'm not succeeding, then I must be outside of God's will. I need to maybe get out of this career field, get out of this business, go into um some other industry or go to seminary and you know, go be a go be a pastor, which happens quite often. Um and and so like how do you how do you measure the what is the measuring stick for what you're referring to as as the red pill? Um because um yeah, I mean I guess that's I guess that's my question. How do you how do you measure what what success is from uh from God's perspective as a business person?
SPEAKER_02I think when we're following if we're following God in our business, obedience is the key. It's not it's not the outcome. We have to leave the outcome to God. God calls us to lead our business in a certain way. God calls us to lead our business in a way that that loves and cares for people, that humanizes people, that does the right thing in the right way for the right reasons, which is how I would define the the ultimate goal, is that that you create in the business, you uh you align the business's values and the business's mission and its culture with biblical principles and biblical priorities and what God, how God has called us to live. And you create a culture that reflects those values, reflects those priorities, and then reinforces those priorities such that people will begin to do the right thing in the right way for the right reasons because it has become what the organization is. It's changing the heart of the organization. And what's what's missing from each of these uh side roads and these placebos is that you can have what looks like it's it's good acts, it's good things happening, it's measurable things you're doing, but the heart of the organization doesn't need to actually change. So for example, giving money. Giving money is a good thing, giving money to causes is a good thing. But the organization can still be driven by the maximization of profit, which uh dehumanizes human beings who I believe God cares about most. In fact, ironically, you could begin to treat people even worse because you think that if I can extract the more profit I can extract to give to good causes, the better I'm doing for God. And in the process you're actually dehumanizing and marginalizing his creation, his his people, all of whom deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. You know, work it goes, you have to go back to Genesis and understand that in Genesis work is was a good thing, right? We were created in the image of God. Every single person working in that business was created in the image of God, it deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. That we are human. We live out our and express our imago day, our creation in the image of God through our work. God is a productive and creative being. And so that that work is actually part of our humanity. Without work, we are not fully human. And I think things like work-life balance, even the concept of work-life balance, is so unbiblical. Because what it says is that work is an opposing force to our life, as opposed to work being an integral part of our life that's necessary for us to realize our full humanity. But we've we've gotten there because I think we created work experiences that have turned work into a burden rather than the blessing that it was always meant to be. And so that a business should be a place where people are humanized by being given the opportunity to utilize their God-given gifts of creativity and productivity in an environment of shalom where they're treated with dignity and respect. They become more fully human in that process. They become engaged in that process. And the business beautifies the world by creating goods and services that actually help the world to flourish or that restore brokenness in the world. And that adds to God's kingdom, adds to God's beauty, all of which glorifies God. But if the purpose of business is just to make the most money because I can measure it, and I think you you miss that. The heart, it all the other good things you do, they're still good. It's still good to evangelize, it's still good to give money, it's still good to do these things, but you're missing the heart change that really brings the business within God's God's purpose for human beings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so with the clients that you're working with, like how do you how do you measure how far along they're moving and toward that that outcome, which I'm sure is uh at least for me, is is a lifelong process. And I don't think I'll be constantly trying to grow, um, you know, as uh as a CEO and and leading a company, and you know, we're probably not ever quite quite there, but you know, it's a it's a journey. But how do you know once one of your clients has kind of reached that that point?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I don't, as you said, it's a lifelong journey. I don't think there's a point at which you say, oh, you've made it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or just that that they're that they're growing. Like how do you monitor that growth? What are the evidences that you're looking for?
SPEAKER_02Well, there are integriosity, which you mentioned before, um, that I lay out as a four-step process. Renew, reimagine, realign, and restore. So the first is to help the person renew their mind as to God's purpose for work. With that, with a renewed understanding of what God's purpose for work is, you can then begin to sit back and reimagine what does my business look like with this, with this understanding of the purpose of work? What does it look like? How how do I how what how do how does it look like to treat my employees now with this new understanding? What does it look like to treat my how I treat my vendors? How do I begin to treat my customers differently? How do I engage with the community now that I have a a different understanding of what I should be doing? And then after reimagining that, a much longer process is the process of realignment. Re looking at your mission statement, re-looking at the values that the core virtues or values of your business. How do those need to be adjusted to bring them in line with God's priorities and biblical principles?
SPEAKER_01Do you have a specific example of how of a company who has kind of moved from point A to point B there?
SPEAKER_02Well, not that I can really talk about, but it it's it that it is a the the slowest part of the process, though, is the piece of the realignment of culture. And that's the process of step by step, and I think not all at once. It's not a quick solution, but beginning to just set forth some things that you can do to begin changing how you look at people, how you look at your policies, your practices. And and I think the other thing that's really important, I believe, to remember is that there is a covert to overt continuum, I think, in in how you actually begin to integrate your work and your business into your faith. So often people believe that overt is better. That if I do this in ways that have, you know, God in my mission statement and Bible studies and things that look very faithful, that that's a better way to do it. Um and I don't think that's right. I think that a business person is given a business. Business to steward. That steward stewardship needs wisdom. And being overt in a given industry, a given geographical area, whatever the circumstances are, might actually be poor stewardship of that business that God has given to that business person. And that the better stewardship might be to love people, care for people in ways that are not overtly faith-based, but they are certainly ways that you love people. So that some of the things a business might do will look exactly like the things that an enlightened secular business might do for its employees. The differences in their why. The secular business might say, we're going to treat people well because attrition is expensive. And at the end of the day, it's good for the bottom line to be nice to our employees and keep people around. Whereas the the leader who is being driven by their faith might institute the sim similar practices and policies, but it's because they know it's the right thing to do. Because they know it's that they're meant to be caring for these people, treating these people with dignity, and giving them an environment where they can flourish. The human flourishing is really the maximization of human flourishing, takes the place of the maximization of profit. And profit, and this is one of the most important mind shifts in that renewal process, is that the leader has to get their head around the idea that profit needs to move from being the end to its proper place as a means to the end. It's a necessary means because without profit, you don't have a sustainable organization. And you also can't you actually can't treat your owners properly and flour have your owners flourish as one of your stakeholders without profit. But it needs to be a means to an end, not the end in itself. And that flourishing of human beings, all the people that are touched by the organization, becomes the goal that you move toward. But again, there's no end point of like, oh yes, wow, here it is. We've made it, but you just begin to see the change and begin to see the change in employee engagement as people realize that they really are cared for, that there really is a change happening. There really is a heart change going on in the organization.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Um, Paul, where can people connect with you and um how can they get involved with what you're doing?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, you can go to integriosity.com and you can see these blogs and get get a better sense of of what this process is. Um, and uh and they can contact me on that through the website.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. And again, integriosity.com is the website, I-n-t-e-g, r-i-o-s-i-t-y.com. Paul, thank you so much for coming on the show today to help us grow and know we're all better for it.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Darren. God bless you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast online. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.