Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Matthew Keming. Matthew is Associate Dean of Fuller, Texas, which is actually based in Houston, scholar in residence at the Max Deprees Center for Christian Leadership, and assistant professor of Christian ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary. And he's also a fellow with the Center for Public Justice and co-author of the new book with Corey B. Wilson. The title of that book is Work and Worship: Reconnecting Our Labor and Liturgy. Matthew, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Hey, Darren. It's great to be with you. I'm looking forward to this conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, this is a beast of the book. I don't mean this the sheer size of it, although it's it's it's got some good thump factor, but a lot of um outstanding research and scholarship went into this. Um, people definitely need to go get a hold of this. Uh, one of the things that you point out, and and and most of us have have heard the worship leader at church, probably more so depending on the the theological tradition that our church is coming from. But the worship leader might say something like this at the call to worship. Let's just right now remove every distraction as we enter into God's presence, forget about the worries of of the week, forget about work and and all the hassle of what's going on in the marketplace and just focus on God. What's wrong with that sentiment?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks. I mean, that's a great question. I mean, really, the entire book is trying to capture this haunting divide that we all experience between, you know, we have our worshiping lives on Sunday and our working lives on Monday. And we often feel like these things are very divided, uh sort of separate worlds. Um, and there are so many marketplace leaders out there that feel this sort of ache of uh a distance between what they do on Sunday and what they do on Monday. And in in the book, we're we're really getting after this problem. And and frankly, worship leaders, um, well-intentioned worship leaders, often play a role in um, unfortunately, widening this gap between our worship lives and our working lives. And and this is one of the things that happens is um they can cultivate this understanding that on Sunday morning, we are supposed to be very spiritual people. And uh we're not supposed to think about work on a Sunday morning. We're supposed to think about God. Um, and we're supposed to be, you know, in the Word and just very spiritual people. Um, and we're supposed to sort of check our work at the door. So all of the cares and questions and confessions and longings and ambitions that we have about work, we're supposed to sort of uh pretend that those things don't really exist or if or affect us on the Sunday morning. And um, what we found in our research um into both scripture and into workers' actual lives is that it's really important for us to bring our working life to God in worship. And that's what's what's going on, frankly, throughout the Old Testament, is people are bringing their fruits and their best, you know, bowls, and um, they're bringing their longings and their prayers for rain on their crops. You know, they the Israelite slaves are crying out for God to help them in the workplace. Um, people are bringing confessions of, you know, if they cheated in the marketplace, they they bring that to God in worship. And so all through scripture, people are being told over and over don't come before the Lord empty-handed. Talk to him about what's going on at work. And so when a worship leader says to you on a Sunday morning, we're just going to focus on God for this hour, they're fundamentally missing a basic scriptural command, which is bring your work to God in worship. You know, be honest with him, bring it to his altar. And that's really a first step for marketplace leaders who want to be faithful to God is to begin by bringing their work to God in worship. And that's what we're trying to get after in the book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the scripture says, cast all your cares upon him. I mean, what better time to do that than when you come into the sanctuary on Sunday morning, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And and and really what's happening there is then God can take those cares and those questions and he can transform them and he can resurrect them and he can direct you and give you strength for the coming week ahead. Um, but if you're not bringing your week to him, uh if you're just kind of holding it back for yourself, uh then there's nothing he can do with it. So we just need to be regularly bringing our marketplace questions to God, um, honestly, so that that you know the gospel can transform what we're doing on a daily basis in business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I've I as I considered the role and the many different roles of pastors and expectations that we place on pastors to to take up, you know, when it's it's time for elections, now the pastor is supposed to be sort of the, you know, um the the political activist. And and when there's Supreme Court issues going on, they need to really like preach messages on on those issues. And it's like there's so many different issues that that pastors have to, and and when you think about the the relatively little time that people are in church during uh on an annual basis, how many of those topics are they actually able to hit on? Um I mean, are we not asking too much of pastors to um to take on this this uh faith and work message?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's that's a phenomenal question. I what I I think what I would say is um really what we're trying to do with this book and in the faith and work movement in general is not asking pastors to do more, but in fact, asking them in a in an important way to do less. And what I mean by that is to recognize that the mission of the church does not rest on their shoulders. Um, it rests on the priesthood of all believers. And so rather than trying to recruit all the people of God into your pastoral mission, which is a big heavy burden to bear, um, recognizing that all of the people in the pews already have a mission within the city's hospitals, its businesses, its schools. And so your task as a pastor is not to do the mission of God, but to send the people of God out into the world to, you know, extend the worship and mission of God into the world. Um, and so that really should relax a pastor, to not think that it's the institutional church that has to do all of the work of God in the city, but it's the body of believers out in the city who's doing that. So the pastor doesn't have to fix a city's um political, economic, artistic, educational problems. That's not the role of the pastor or the elders. Um, the role of the pastor and the elders is to equip the people of God so that they might serve God in those different spheres of influence. And so, really, this is meant to unburden the pastor because it's really the priesthood of all believers. It's not just on them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's really good. And that that segues into this concept that I wanted you to uh expound on of the doctrine of the munis triplex. What is that and what are the implications for us today?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's an that's an old Latin term, and the triplex is you know, three. And so it's talking about Jesus as a prophet, a priest, and a king. So Jesus is a prophet in that he speaks truth and justice. Um, he is a priest in that he is a reconciling and healing force in the world. Um, and he is a king in that he is he is sovereign over all things and he has authority. And this understanding is that we who are disciples of Christ, who are called to follow, to imitate Jesus, are often also called to be prophets, priests, and kings. And so this is a podcast for marketplace leaders. So um, you know, a marketplace uh manager has a a priestly, a kingly and a prophetic role in that he or she is called to speak the truth in the marketplace, um, to be truthful and to even speak out against um marketplace injustices or harassment, or you know, if if something is is unjust in the workplace, um, we have a prophetic calling to say something. We can't just be silent. Um, Christ spoke unpopular words of truth. And in the same way, we are we are called to speak unpopular words of truth, truth telling. Um, we are also called to be priestly, which is means we're we're called to be a reconciling force in the marketplace, a healing force. Um and uh what a priest would do would be to intercede before God um in prayer for the community. So what that means is we are called as marketplace leaders to pray for our coworkers, for our clients, for our bosses, to intercede before God on their behalf. Uh so and then the last is is a kingly calling in that um, and that involves um power, um, not a dominating power, not a not a power to sort of rule and control, but a power to serve and to give life. And that's really the power that Jesus demonstrates in his life, is um he doesn't dominate the weak, but he uses his power um to heal and liberate and release. And so for those of us who are in positions of marketplace power, you know, positions of marketplace influence, we can follow Jesus by using our power to add life in the marketplace, to um to release people to their fullest potential who are within our care. Um, so as a boss in the marketplace, um, you can imitate Christ by raising up, you know, young people beneath you and mentoring them and helping them develop professionally rather than using your power just to empower yourself. So we have a prophetic calling to speak truth, we have a priestly calling to heal, and we have a royal calling to reign in ways that are life-giving. And and all three of those things are true at once.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And when you talk about the prophetic um calling, it makes me think about how Paul talks about the prophetic gift and how there are different spiritual gifts. And one of the things that I've heard um in the last several years of kind of digging into this Faith the Word movement is that that um, and and it's largely people outside of the movement that don't really understand what's happening. The idea that, well, spiritual gifts are only to be used in a congregational setting. Um what is your perspective on the gifts like administration and leadership and the and the others that that Paul mentions? And what is um are those to be used in the in the workplace or just in a sanctuary kind of setting?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great question. So I'm a I'm a public, what's called a public theologian. So I'm interested in theology and public life beyond the walls of the church. And I think that the gospel is pretty clear that it is true, uh, not simply in the church, but for all of life. So we are called to love the Lord our God with all our mind, soul, strength, you know, heart. Um, and you know, in Israel, to be holy was to walk in the ways of the Lord, not simply in the temple, but in the marketplace, in the fields. Um, you were to walk in the ways of the Lord in every aspect of your life. Um, and for Paul, um, he is clearly concerned with how Christians are interacting with Greeks and Jews and all those within the city. Um, so I'm I'm pretty critical, frankly, of those who would privatize the Christian faith to just dealing with matters of the church. Um, Jesus is not simply the Lord of your churchly life. Uh, Jesus is the Lord of your marketplace life as well. And you can't just follow him in the church. And he has given you gifts, not simply to serve in the church, but he's given you gifts to serve him in the world. And and he delights in good marketplace work. That is that is well done. He delights in that. And um, so I I'm pretty critical of those who would limit Christian discipleship just to what happens inside the church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and I like how for you it's it's not a either-or, like either we're just gonna kind of forsake the congregational gatherings, and we're gonna go do the stuff in the in the workplace and in the public life. But you're really saying we yes, we need we need both. You say gathered worship can be a transformational space for workers and their work. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I think so. Gathered worship on Sunday morning, if we allow it, can really have an impact on our working lives. So, one thing is for many of us who have very busy working lives and we're moving back and forth between laptops and phones and Zoom calls and emails, and we have sort of a hectic pace to our lives. Uh, Sunday morning worship and Sabbath in general can help us slow down. Um, it can help us pause and frankly, just even notice the racing of our heartbeat. And and it can really force a worker's heart to rest in God's work. That's really what Sabbath is about, is resting and relying on God's work, not our own work. So that's that's one fundamental thing that worship can do. Um, another thing that worship can do, um, so hang on one second.
SPEAKER_01On this, on the Sabbath part, like, I don't know about you, but like Sunday morning is not a particularly restful time. Um, I mean, especially with three kids um and like three little kids, like seven and under. It's a little bit, a little bit hectic. Um, but frankly, there are other days uh that are more restful than the Sunday morning. Um, you know, especially with there's uh there's a need for, I mean, who's gonna who's gonna get things done at the church other than volunteers? So so Sunday morning ends up being kind of a busy time for a lot of people, uh, which is why pastors take sun Mondays off. So um, so I don't know. Um, I don't even know if if rest, but I I think I get what you're saying about the the focus, like it's time to to fo but but do kind of what that worship leader is saying do, and let's um let's kind of recenter, recalibrate on the Lord, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I I I guess I would say that Sunday morning should be restful. And if it's not restful, if Sunday is not restful, um, then maybe some things need to change about how your Sunday morning is going. Uh, but that's that's sort of a longer, a longer discussion. But it it seems pretty clear from scripture that the Sabbath is meant to be a you know a period of peacefulness. Um, and as a father of three boys myself, I I feel your pain, brother. Um, so another aspect of of this is that um within worship, there is a confessional um aspect to it. Um a a, you know, I'm Presbyterian and we we have a period of time just for uh a confessional prayer where we reflect on our week and we we offer our confessions to God. And that's a moment in worship when a marketplace leader can uh bring his or her weekly confessions from work and offer those to God and say, God, I must confess you know, this interaction with a coworker or this this this slip of the tongue or whatever it was. Um, another can be the blessing at the end of a worship service. One thing I like to do when I give a blessing is have the congregation turn around and face the door and uh close their eyes and think about their place of work and the people that they work for. And then I give them a blessing and a charge to extend the grace that they have learned about um here in the Word and to extend those patterns of love and grace that they have experienced in Jesus to the people that they work with tomorrow. So um you are blessed with this grace. And so here is your charge. Your charge is to go and extend this grace to those that that you are called to serve on Monday. Um, and so those are just a few things. Of course, you if if you want to learn more, you can you can read the book on work and worship. But um, but what we're really trying to get after there is helping people develop a thicker understanding of how Sunday and Monday are meant to be deeply embedded with one another and that they should they should be in conversation with each other. And um, we're living our lives in pieces, uh, and separated from one another, our work and our worship begin to fall apart. And um, and that's not good for either side.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I I love the you quoted a theologian who I don't remember the name, but that worship is is like a heartbeat. Um, can you expound on that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So a couple theologians, von Allman and Walter Storp, talking about so a heart has a systolic and a diastolic function, right? The heart, the heartbeat draws the blood in and it sends the blood out. And that's what's keeping you and I alive right now, as we're talking, is is our hearts are drawing blood in, sending it out. So Christian worship does the same thing. It draws people in and it sends people out. It draws workers in from all over the city, from hospitals and schools and businesses and government offices. It draws, you know, police officers and entrepreneurs, it draws them in to worship God. Um, and as they come in, they carry all of these um questions and issues from their workplace. They they bring all of that into the presence of God, they offer it to God, um, and God. God sends them out with his word, with his grace, with his power. He sends them out of worship back into the world. So worship has a gathering function and a scattering function. And that is frankly where the that's the heartbeat of the Christian life. Um and um that is how we get our oxygen um for our weekly life. And but it's only when we are honestly carrying our work into worship and when worship is sending us out with the power of the spirit to you know extend the mission and glory of God into our different careers and callings, you know, serving as parents in the home, you know, coaches on the soccer team and entrepreneurs in the marketplace. Um, so so we need that in and out rhythm in our lives um to really deeply connect our worshiping and working lives. And uh we just need to be a lot more intentional about that.
SPEAKER_01It's a beautiful example. Um Matthew, what do you want people to do after they listen to this episode?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um I think really the the core of of what we're getting after is um talk to God about your work, frankly. Um if you if you're not bringing your work to God, um, talk to God about your successes, um, your promotions, your bonuses, your your new projects, your new deals, bring those things to God, praise Him. Um, that's so important because um, if we're not bringing the first fruits and praising God for those marketplace victories, then we start to believe that they are our victories, that that they're because we're so smart or we're so hardworking or we're so righteous. And so carry those those praises and those thanks to God from the marketplace. Also be carrying your confessions to God. Um bring your petitions to God. So, so pray for your coworkers and your clients, um, intercede for them and pray intercession for them. Um, and bring your laments, your unanswered questions, you know, the job that you didn't get, the the help that God didn't provide, or or maybe you don't know what your calling is, um, and God isn't answering you, bring bring those tears to God as well. So I think if if you could take anything out of this conversation, the short little podcast, um, it would be that it was it would be start bringing those things more intentionally, because often you know, often we we hold those things back. And uh, if you want to see transformation in your marketplace life, um, you've got to be bringing that to God. And that's really what we're getting after in this book. Um, and uh I I have personally, you know, experienced some real freedom uh in doing that for myself. And uh yeah, yeah, I think that's what I'd say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well said. Well, let's cast our cares on the Lord, um, no matter where you are, you know, especially when you come into uh a time of of congregational worship where we're all focused on the Lord, just bring whatever cares you're dealing with and just know that you don't have to check that at the door. Uh, thank goodness, as as Matthew has and Corey have done such a great job of explaining in this book. So uh the book is work and worship reconnecting our labor and liturgy. Anything else you want to say about where you want people to go uh or or what you're working on, Matthew?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sure. Well, you can find out more about the book at uh workandworshipbook.com. You can also find me on Twitter. Um, happy to interact with you there. Um and um yeah, uh teaching at Fuller Seminary has been a really great experience for me. I'm teaching a number of classes here on faith work in the marketplace in partnership with the Depree Center for Christian Leadership. Um, but yeah, mostly um, you know, if you're looking for a book to give to your pastor on these kinds of questions, you know, if your pastor is interested in faith work in the marketplace, I encourage you to, you know, it's been a hard year for pastors out there. So, you know, maybe you can give your pastor this book and it's sort of as a as a gift and an encouragement to your pastor. So, Darren, thank you so much. And I'm grateful for your podcast, man, and the conversations you guys are cultivating there at uh Houston Baptist. So rich blessings to you, brother.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, blessings to you. And um, you you made this podcast even better today. So we appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, man.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.