Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Denham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Brian Dick. Brian is a vocational psychologist, professor of psychology at Colorado State University, and co-founder and chief science officer of Job Zology. Brian studies meaning and purpose in the workplace, calling and vocation in career development, and the intersection of faith and work. He's delivered keynote lectures on four continents, has published four books, including Redeeming Work, which is his latest book, and Make Your Job a Calling, and hosts the Purposeful Work Podcast. Brian, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_03Thanks so much for having me, Darren. It's a privilege to be on.
SPEAKER_02So the the alarming job dissatisfaction rates out there, I'm sure a lot of people are familiar that just by and large, people just aren't fulfilled in their work. And yet Christians really ought to be like as I think about what are the advantages that a Christian has in business. And because having meaning and purpose and actually wanting to go to work make gives people such an edge and just the the success that they that they find in their job, in their in their work, it seems like we ought to be, as Christians, really the the shining city on a hill. Um is that the case that you're finding, and I don't know how much research has been done in this particular area, but even just anecdotally, what is what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I don't know of evidence that shows big differences in job satisfaction between Christians and non-Christians. And there's probably um, you know, one reason for that might be that the way job satisfaction is measured might not quite capture the types of difference we might see. Um, I will say I think it's a human universal, the search for meaning. And so believers or non-believers alike are trying to make sense of their experience and including their experience at work, and they want it to matter. And people from a psychological, on a psychological level, they're able to accomplish that in different ways. But I think one key difference, like you're alluding to for um believers in Christ, is that we we have this worldview um that uh we can draw on that provides so much meaning and and significance to the work, can be very sustaining. Um, and I think to the extent that we're able to tap into that and lean on that to make sense of our experience, yeah, I I would think that um Christians are able to experience a kind of existential joy from their work um when things are in alignment, like like we hope they are. Uh, but most measures of job satisfaction that are used in research don't really touch on that type of well-being. So that that might be a reason why.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and so much of job dissatisfaction from what I understand relates to like the saying that people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses. And and Colossians 3.23 says, Do your work is as unto the Lord, not working for men. So we've got the best boss, you know, we've got the best leader if we have the right mindset, but but maybe that's the problem, is we just don't have the mindset. And plus, we've got a lot of these myths that we that we bring to our theology of work. What are some of those myths that we've bought into as it relates to our work vocations?
SPEAKER_03Well, that's a good question. Um, you know, this was something I devoted some space to in uh that book that you mentioned, Redeeming Work. I think a lot of us have half-truths that we think about um when we're um thinking about how to best live out our faith and discern a calling. And so, you know, um one of them is this question if I'm serious about my faith, I should consider ministry and missions before anything else. Um, and you know, for people who are already embedded in a job, they think this through and apply it in a way where they might feel like if they're not working in uh Christian ministry, kind of in a traditional sense, then their work is of secondary significance, spiritually speaking, right? So unless I'm a pastor or a missionary, what I'm doing doesn't really matter. And, you know, that that is is problematic in a few different ways. If you break down that statement, if I'm serious about my faith, I should consider ministry or missions before anything else. Partly what that conveys is the idea that pastors and missionaries are more serious about their faith than the rest of us. And uh for sure, as a group, uh pastors and missionaries take their faith very seriously. Um, but we know based on experience that lots of people do, and there are kind of spiritual role models in any line of work. Um, but I think the bigger problem is that the statement reflects a hierarchy, um, kind of a uh a belief that we probably inherited from the ancient Greeks that you know some areas of work are sacred and really valuable in God's eyes, and everything else is just a notch below that. That's not what's communicated in scripture. Um, you know, Christ is Lord of every square inch of the whole creation. And if you believe that, then that creates a way for you to think about the significance in a spiritual sense of any type of job that you have. And there are lots of obstacles to thinking that through and applying that in a careful way, but that is one key um half-truth or myth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And one of the most detrimental theological perspectives that we bring to and and really is contributing probably to this dissatisfaction is um you talk about the two-act view of the Bible versus a four-act view. Um, what is that and and what is what are the ramifications for our approach to work? Sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think uh it's there's a long history of describing the Bible um using the analogy of a play, you know, with different acts. And, you know, this dates to Augustine, really, but it's sort of been popularized by uh N. T. Wright and others in our era. Um, I think if you think of the Bible as a coherent narrative, a grand narrative, then you can talk about it as um unfolding according to creation, fall, redemption, and renewal. And, you know, all four acts are very, very important as we think about our work. But I think lots of Christians only really focus uh functionally on fall and redemption. And you can ask people to describe what it means to be a person of faith and you know, what's the heart of the gospel, and and you'll you'll hear people say things like, I'm a sinner saved by grace. And that's a that's a super important truth. I absolutely affirm that. Um, but as it applies to work, I think often people miss out on the significance of creation, you know, strong doctrine of creation, of God being a creator, and all of that means in terms of the goodness that's in the world. Um, absolutely, it's been tainted and distorted by sin. Um, Christ died and was raised again, and with that comes redemption, not just of our own relationship with God, but of the whole creation. And everything is heading toward this great renewal where Christ returns and everything is made new. When you have that all four acts uh and that broad full orb view, um, there's so much more meaning and significance than when you're only focused on um fall and redemption. I think when when we're focused on just those middle two acts, although there are, again, don't hear and don't misunderstand me, there are key truths there that are essential to the faith. But I think that that lends itself to a way of thinking about the way my faith plays out at work is I witness to coworkers and share the gospel with them. And I affirm that, you know, we're called to be witnesses everywhere we are. Um, but it doesn't really lend itself to asking these bigger questions about the work itself, um, or about how what we're doing from nine to five or whatever your hours are, are linked to, you know, the work that God has done on the cross, but also, you know, where everything is heading and what we'll experience when Christ returns. In a very real sense, the work that we do is connected to, you know, the new heavens and the new earth. And when you really think deeply about that, it adds so much significance to the work itself. So, yeah, relationships, witnessing to others at work, that that's great. I affirm that. Um, but there's just so much more to it. If you think about faith, work, integration, there's so much that's exciting and meaningful within the work itself, whatever that looks like for you, that um a more full orb view of the Bible really helps illustrate.
SPEAKER_02And you point out a number of these myths that we have about um that really kind of spring from the way we think about Christianity in the Bible, um, and and kind of project those onto our work life that aren't necessarily true. One of those statements is uh God, we've all heard God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called.
SPEAKER_01Um, why is that uh a half-truth?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, um I'm glad that you're refer referring to it as a half-truth because it is partly true. Um, you know, God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called. God does absolutely equip the called. When we're called into something, God gives us what we need. Uh, but I I I mean, you've heard that statement, God doesn't call the equipped. Usually that comes up when people feel like they're being tasked to do something that they they just feel overwhelmed by or inadequate for. Um, and uh, you know, I think what gets lost in that statement, um, God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called, is that God does, in fact, call the equipped. Christians like to say this and then refer to examples like Moses. They'll say, God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called. And then they point to Moses and specifically the part about where Moses um, you know, at the burning bush, he sort of uh expresses concern about public speaking and his perceived inadequacy as a speaker. And, you know, God says, I will give you the words, but I'll also give you your brother Aaron, you know, to assist in this. Uh, but the question is, you know, was there anything special about um Moses that made him uniquely suited for the task to which he was called? And of course, Moses, you know, as a baby, floated in a basket uh to Pharaoh's daughter and was raised within Pharaoh's palace. And, you know, that's not the case for any other Hebrew that we know of. And so, you know, probably there are things that Moses brought to the table that God used from his experience. So, in a very real sense, I think, you know, Moses was called because um, you know, he had these experiences and gifts. And then, of course, God equipped him to carry out the tasks that um, you know, he was charged with. So I think God both calls the equipped and he equips the called. And what that means to us is um, yeah, we can lean on God for strength and uh for what we need to carry out the tasks to which God calls us. But when we're trying to figure out what those tasks are, a good starting point is to look at our gifts and our experiences and our strengths. And and so I think both of those things are true. God calling the equipped, God gives us gifts that he uses to communicate his calling speech. And it may be characteristics.
SPEAKER_02This may be more common to certain theological traditions. Like, why do we like that statement so much? I mean, it is it that we're we're just tired of what we're currently doing, and we feel like this couldn't possibly be something that's that God's calling me to do. Yeah, like for example, I think about and I hear this story over and over again, you know, the the successful business person that has kind of ascended to the the top of the the mountain and and the business world and and on some level, and then they're like, I gotta go, I gotta go to seminary, I gotta go start a church or something, like do something that's like so different that it it's like they it's like it's hard to see God in it's like, well, I've I I do business, I've I've kind of figured out business, but maybe is it that there's something that we're still missing there?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well that's that specific example I think harkens back to that that earlier myth that you know if if if I'm really gonna live out my faith in my career, then it's gotta be in a traditional ministry role. And um, you know, I we need more good pastors and more good uh missionaries. I so I I I don't want anyone to misunderstand me and say, you know, no, that's not true. We don't, we don't we of course we do, but um the what I would do if I were sitting down with someone who's asking those kinds of questions is to say, look, um you are in a role now where you have enormous influence and where um you are doing the work of the Lord within the corner of creation where you find yourself. So let's focus a little bit on what that looks like, what that means, how you could live that out, um, how you can, you know, partner with Christ in in uh managing uh the his creation and also you know working to redeem it, looking ahead to that sort of perfect renewal. Um I think thinking through things on that level aligns us with um with scripture, what we read in scripture, um, you know, the themes of scripture and what it communicates to us about how our stories align with God's broader story. And it also levels the playing field in a similar way that Luther did in, you know, in the in the Reformation, where no, there's not a hierarchy where some types of work are more spiritually significant or sacred than others. All of it is sacred if carried out for God's glory.
SPEAKER_02And as a vocational psychologist, you've been taking people through a very well-developed, well-tested process toward discovering fulfillment in our in our work. What is what are some of the some of the the high points of that process that maybe people could go put into action today?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think one of the uh themes um in Redeeming Work and in Make Your Job a Calling that we explored is that um a good way to discern your calling is to pay attention to your gifts. And as a vocational psychologist, we kind of look at well, what have we learned about how people are different from each other? Um, how we can reliably and validly assess those differences, and then what it means in terms of areas of work that are predicted to uh be satisfying and meaningful to folks. And so one of the things that I think people can do is just um use tools that are available to them that provide good information about their constellation of gifts. And I use that word gifts very broadly. You know, in scripture we read a lot about spiritual gifts, and that's really important, especially within the context of the church. Um, but within vocational psychology, we look at things like interests and work-related values and personality traits and abilities and skills, those kinds of things. Um, so you know, paying attention to that is one thing. And then moving from a clearer understanding of the self to exploring different opportunities and needs within the world of work, right? So once I have a clear understanding of how God has made me, how I'm unique, then the question is, what does that mean in terms of opportunities in the world of work where my most salient gifts can be best deployed? And as Christians, we also look at what are the needs? What are the needs in our community and in our world that I might be uniquely equipped to satisfy? And then while we do that, while we go through that process, it's really useful to recognize that, you know, vocational discernment is best done not um as an individual in a vacuum. It's best done within the context of a community. So we look at soliciting both support and mentoring, you know, guidance from other people in our lives. And so I usually suggest that folks, you know, consider putting together a personal board of directors. I mean, you know, companies have boards of directors, and but individuals, as they go through a vocational discernment process, can do something similar where they think through, okay, who are three to five people in my life who have my best interests in mind, who have a lot of wisdom, who don't have an agenda, you know, uh, but who can provide some guidance and feedback and candid, honest um advice and serve as a sounding board. And I usually say three to five is a good number. You want more than one person because people have different perspectives, and sometimes it's helpful to kind of look at points of convergence that emerge across the different perspectives. Um uh, but anyway, so that I think is another important part. And then finally, I would say that speaking of community, you know, linking to a body of believers and working out some of these questions together with like-minded folks who share your values really helps, I think, sustain people and also ensure that they're asking the right kinds of questions about what exactly it looks like to live out faith within our work. You know, how am I using my gifts in a way where I can engage the world to make things better for God's glory for the well-being of the world?
SPEAKER_02And you've got a number of world initiatives like the The Purposeful Work Project, um, your latest book, Redeeming Work, um, which I was reading today. Um, excellent, which a lot of the the discussion points here in this interview have come from from that reading. Um and job zoology, tell us what what are you working on right now and how can people get involved?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, um, you mentioned job zoology. I could start there. One of the things that I've been privileged to do is take some research that we've been doing um at the university and and um partner with some entrepreneurs to create a company called Job Zology that provides resources. I mentioned this before, you know, helping people assess their gifts. So Job Zology has created a platform called Pathway U. And actually, readers of Redeeming Work can access this as part of uh uh part of the purchasing the book uh and experience it. And basically it's uh it's an online platform that in a very efficient way allows people to assess their interests and values and personality and workplace culture preferences. And then we have some patented algorithms that will take that information and then map it on to uh about a thousand different job titles and um predict uh career paths that um our algorithms suggest a person will be well suited to serve in. Now it's not formulaic, it doesn't tell a person what their calling is or what they should do. But um, you know, vocational discernment is best done with wisdom. And to me, um, good choices are informed choices. So part of using wisdom in that process is just using good information. And so one of the things that you know I've been privileged to do is create uh help create this platform that provides people with the kind of information they Need to make informed decisions. And I believe that's one of the ways that God communicates his callings. All of us would love a Moses in the desert burning bush type experience where our next steps are communicated to us in an audible voice. But that's unfortunately the exception, not the rule. And most of us, you know, need to pray for wisdom, maybe rather than a divine revelation to help make decisions. And so that's one of the things that we've been privileged to do. And, you know, I work at a university and am interested in research. So I'm blessed to have a cadre of graduate students and undergraduates, a team who's investigating what it looks like to live out our callings in life and what difference it makes for folks who experience their work that way. So that's an important thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's really interesting that you're you've got these projects that I'm involved in. Algorithms makes me wonder what the future holds in terms of machine learning and AI to predict and suggest um career paths for people. You know, you might not get a burning bush experience, but hey, God might speak to you through some very um, you know, very focused algorithms that have been tracking all of your your behavior and interests and and things. I mean, ads are already being targeted at people based on their psychographics and and everything else, but our phones probably know a whole lot about us that could be leveraged.
SPEAKER_01Are you um what's the what's the future of that looking like?
SPEAKER_03Well, um, you know, I I think a lot of times we start to think a lot about science fiction movies we've seen where the road and you hear this all the time, robots are coming for our jobs and that kind of thing. And, you know, in the the bigger picture, I address some of that. That's also I think a bit of an overstated concern. I think throughout history, technology has created more jobs than it's taken away. And uh if if robots are coming to displace us, there will be people who are displaced, but usually there's there are more jobs that are created. Uh, but you asked kind of what this looks like in terms of career decision making. And I would say, you know, um uh use of data, uh, there is of course an ethical and responsible way of harnessing information and using that to help people make informed decisions. I think um there are some concerns uh related to that, of course, but to me it's a gift, you know, it it one of the things that God has blessed us with is um, you know, he's given us his revelation in scripture and he's given us his revelation in in creation. And and science is a way, you know, to kind of learn about God by studying his creation and then developing applications that that can help us. And one of the ways within my field where that's happened is to take information that we can assess reliably and then um uh improve ways to use that by combining it um and and then making suggestions for folks that they can evaluate and pray over. And then if if they believe there's an alignment there, commit to. And you know, our data shows that when people make choices to pursue paths that do align with their unique constellation of gifts, then the outcomes are better than when it's some kind of you know random process or or people do what is easy to access or or what what their uncle does or whatever, right? So uh to me, it's just part of thinking through how can we make choices with wisdom, um, you know, praying and leaning on God for guidance, um, but uh using the available resources that we can gone as far as to make information to name the system, the burning bush.
SPEAKER_02So that's probably but but no, you're right. I mean, you can get so much out of uh an assist like that. And um, and you've obviously put a lot of expertise and uh a lot of time and a lot of I know you got a lot of those guinea pig students to be able to test uh things out on. So uh jobsology, j-o-b-z-o-l-o-g-y dot com and briandick.com, um, br y a n d i k dot com. Um, everybody go check out those websites and subscribe to the purposeful work podcast. Uh, Brian, thank you so much for uh for coming on the show. I know everybody is is encouraged, and um, and I think you've really called us to uh a higher level of of pursuing fulfillment in our work and not just settling for um mediocrity.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Darren. You're you're I love the show. You're doing important work in the world, and I'm privileged to be able to participate in it today.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.