Before we dive into the content for this episode, I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor, High Bridge Books. If you're a Christian and you want to write, publish, and sell a book, you really need to contact us. In fact, you can contact me directly because this is my company. You can reach me at Darren at highbridgebooks.com. Our authors have sold many tens of thousands of life-changing books for the glory of God, and we're always looking for more Christian thought leaders to work with. You can take a look at our publishing package and some of the other services we offer at highbridgebooks.com. And you can also learn about some of our incredible authors and their books. So go to highbridgebooks.com. All right, let's jump into this amazing episode. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Theology of Business podcast. I'm your host, Darren Shearer, and this is a show where we as marketplace Christians explore and apply God's will for business. On this episode, we're joined by Jimmy Song. Jimmy is a Bitcoin educator, developer, and entrepreneur. Jimmy is the author of Programming Bitcoin and the Little Bitcoin Book. In addition, he's a Bitcoin fellow at Blockchain Capital, a lecturer at the University of Texas, a speaker at Bitcoin conferences, and an avid open source contributor, mostly in Bitcoin and the instructor of a two-day workshop for programmers called Program Programming Blockchain. And uh this is audio only. So I know you can't see this amazing cowboy hat he's wearing. But so when I say he's a uh lecturer at the University of Texas, he's uh he definitely looks the part of a Texan right now. So Jimmy, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be on.
SPEAKER_02So we're gonna talk about Bitcoin and and uh what a it's a fascinating uh topic. I know it's getting a lot of buzz right now, but um I I think one of the uh foundational aspects of this is the the morality of money, this concept that you've really introduced to me. I uh because typically I've heard that money is amoral. You know, it's it all depends on if you're gonna, like Dave Ramsey says, money's like a brick. Uh you could either use a brick to build a school or a hospital, or you could use a brick to knock out somebody's window. But uh you say that um that money is there, there are moral aspects of the money itself. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, so when I say that uh, you know, the current monetary system is immoral, I mean that it is very easy to um for people to do the wrong thing and hard for people to do the right thing. Um moral money would be the reverse. It would be very easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing. Um the current monetary system, um, I'm not going to mince any words, is a cesspool of theft and cronyism uh and corruption. And uh and it makes all of those things very, very easy. Um, economists would call this a moral hazard. It is very easy to um externalize the cost and make it uh at at the benefit of yourself. And uh a lot of the people that are in charge of the economy um through the money printing mechanism that we call central banks and all of the uh banks that go on top of that, they are incentivized essentially to steal from everybody else um for their own benefit. And this has been going on uh for a very long time. And uh and we explore a lot of that in the book, Thank God for this.
SPEAKER_02So, how was Bitcoin better than the monetary system we have? Or or or let's even say, like, if we were to go back to the to the gold standard, um, how is it better than either the fiat system or the or the gold standard?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the fiat system is very much uh one where the central bank can print any amount of money. We were talking earlier, and you were saying, yeah, where where is this like 1.9 trillion coming from? And the this is the part that a lot of people don't really understand is that if the government has some sort of a budget, say they um you know they're they're spending six trillion dollars this year, let's just say, and they collect 4 trillion in taxes, where's that extra 2 trillion coming from? Um, well, the that comes through treasuries, and this is done by the uh the US Department of Treasury. They will issue $2 trillion in US Treasury bonds. Um, now the public can buy them, foreign central banks can buy them and so on, but right now, not many of them are buying. So, what ends up happening is that the central bank steps in and buys those bonds. Well, where does the money that uh come from for them to buy them those bonds? Well, it comes out of nothing. They literally just created out of thin air. And this is how that the $1.9 trillion stimulus package that that was just passed, like this is how it gets funded. It doesn't come through new taxes, it doesn't come through borrowing from people's savings, it comes out of nothing. So essentially, when whenever uh uh an entity has the ability to print money, they are essentially stealing from everybody else. And uh and it's not just people in the United States who certainly hold dollars, but it's people all over the world, other central banks that are holding dollars, you're diluting um their savings. Uh, people in North Korea, Nigeria, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, all of those people value dollars because it's much better than the currency that they have. Uh, so you know, you're really stealing not just from uh from the people in the US, but people all over the world. So I would say that the fiat money is immoral for that reason. It is a giant moral hazard because essentially anytime they print, they're stealing from everybody else. Now, why why uh why Bitcoin versus the gold standard? Well, the gold standard was good as far as it went. Um uh, you know, if you have hard money, then it is very hard to inflate the supply and so on. Um, but they found the way, right? Uh this was through fractional reserve banking. And largely that came into being because of gold's physical nature. Um, if you had to transport gold every time you did a transaction, that became very, very inconvenient. And that's where sort of banks came in and bills of exchange came in and things like that to make um trade over distance a lot easier. Um, unfortunately, like gold being physical and uh you know having a location physically means that it uh it was very difficult to sort of uh transport and move around. Um and that that led uh that ultimately is what led to fiat money, and that's the argument that we make in the book. Uh whereas with Bitcoin, it's really hard money, it's perfectly scarce. Um, there is no money printer, it's decentralized, it it's unconfiscatable, uncensorable, um, which makes it an ideal money uh without any moral hazards for any central controller.
SPEAKER_02And so Bitcoin itself is different than because there's all these, we hear about all these different cryptocurrencies. Um, can you just differentiate? Because that's probably creating a lot of confusion for people right now. What's the difference between Bitcoin and all these other um altcoins uh so to speak? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh excellent question. And uh and this it is really confusing because the media sort of lumps them all together, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies or something like that. Uh Bitcoin is actually decentralized and it has 12 years of history. Um, so it's it's it's by far the oldest. Um it's decentralized in the sense that it's always backwards compatible. There's no central controller, there's no um, you know, creator that's like uh calling the shots or whatever. Um, and you know, there there's no rule changes midway through. Um, all of these other coins like Ethereum or Ripple or Binance Coin or you know, Bitcoin Cash or you know, um Monero or whatever, all of them have some central controller or some committee that decides on everything. And they they have and uh have changed the monetary policy for their coin, for example. Um, Vitalik Buterin um more or less calls the shots on Ethereum, for example. And he uh so for that reason it's centralized. And once it's centralized, you once again have that moral hazard. Um, and they they've done this where in Ethereum there was something called the Dow contract, which had one-sixth of all Ethereum in it, and somebody figured out um, you know, a way to drain money from that smart contract. So um, you know, it was a perfectly legal maneuver according to the rules of that contract, but they decided that they didn't like that because it was somebody that was sort of taking money from this contract. So they reverse all of those transactions. Vitalik more or less said, we're going to reverse these transactions, and they did. And if that sounds familiar, it's kind of like the fiat system, right? If they don't like what you do, um they can seize your bank account. Um, and many, many people have suffered through this. Uh, you know, they might be drug users or child pornographers or something, but it also happens to people, you know, where uh, you know, you might own a gun or something and they don't like that you're a gun gun shop owner or uh or something like that. And uh, and you know, having resistance to that, having that unconfiscatability, that uncensorability is an important aspect. Um, and that that's what decentralization gives you. Um, and none of these other coins have that.
SPEAKER_02And and so you say it's perfectly scarce because when it was originally set up by this guy uh named Satoshi, that nobody knows who he is, um, he set it up to where there would only be 21 million Bitcoin. And yet I hear about mining for Bitcoin. Like, what is the help me understand this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So um big there will never ever be more than 21 million bitcoins, and uh and the way it works is that there's um there's a schedule of uh these coins being released, and this is called the mining reward. So um there's a block. Uh if you can think of Bitcoin as a giant ledger, and that's what we call the blockchain. It's a record of every transaction that's ever happened at Bitcoin. And miners put in a new page into that ledger every 10 minutes. So every 10 minutes, new transactions get put into the ledger, and this is how you figure out how much Bitcoin you have, and so on. Um and your software checks uh all of the transactions and makes sure that they're legitimate transactions, not overspending, for example, or creating new money into existence. Uh, the only uh transactions that are allowed to create new money are uh is are the first transactions of every page, essentially. And these create new trend uh new bitcoin into existence every 10 minutes. So the first 210,000 blocks created 50 bitcoins per block, uh per page, right? Um new bitcoins came into existence. So at the very beginning, there were zero bitcoins. After the first block, there was 50. After the second block, there was 100, and so on. So for 210,000 blocks, it was 50 bitcoins per block. So 210,000 times 50 is 10.5 million. So half of the 21 million uh were produced within the first 210,000 blocks. Now 210,000 times 10 minutes is two 2.1 million minutes. That is very roughly four years. So every four years, you know, uh essentially the block reward changes. So it went from 50 to 25. So for the next 210,000 blocks, it was 25 bitcoins per block. Um, so 50 plus 25, and then the next four years it was 12 and a half. Next four years it was six uh six point two five, and that's the era that we're in. So it's 50 plus 25 plus 12 and a half. And if you know a little bit of math, it's uh it that asymptotically goes to 100, 100 times two 210,000 is 21 million. That's how we know that there's 21 million. Uh, but the you know, miners get that reward every 10 minutes. So somewhere in the world, every 10 minutes, uh roughly every 10 minutes, some uh some miners get it uh creating 6.25 new bitcoins and putting them into existence, which currently is about $350,000 or so. And that's that's how that works.
SPEAKER_02So so at some point there won't be anything more to mine, right? Once all 21 are on the market, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, that's right. Uh, but the miners also get uh transaction fees. So to incentivize miners to include your transaction in that page, um you pay what's called the miners fee. So you you uh the miner uh gets a small portion of the transaction that you you might be sending, and they included it, uh they they get to take some of that. So currently 6.25 bitcoins are the block subsidy, what that's what we call it. Um, but there's also in addition about 0.75 to 1.25 uh bitcoins per block and fees, and the fees vary because of demand and stuff like that. So already something like 12 to 15 percent of minor revenue comes from fees. So once the block subsidy goes away, they would subsist purely on fees. Um, but that's not going to be until 2140. So it's going to take some time for that to all come through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you said that what the Bitcoin is built on 100% verification, 0% trust. And and yet, like I I see these commercials for, you know, learn how to like set up your basement with servers so you can, you know, mine Bitcoin. And and so it like if I saw Chase Bank or Capital One or whoever was holding my money saying, hey, um, you know, hold Capital One, Chase Bank's money on your own servers in your in your in your home, like that like that's doesn't it seem like that's the message that's that's coming across. Like I get that that's not what's actually happening, but it feels like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh I I I think the advertisers could use some work. But basically, the way it works is that uh it Bitcoin is what you would call in economics a barrier instrument. Um and stocks used to be like this, cash is certainly like this right now. Gold, uh, if it's physical gold, it's uh it's a bearer instrument. You you actually physically kind of hold it or you you have it in your possession. Uh Bitcoin is very much like that. Um, there's a secret essentially um that that you have to keep secret. Um, and you could back it up and do all sorts of things with it, uh, which is not true of physical gold, for example. You can't back it up, right? In case you lose it or something like that. Uh, but that that's how Bitcoin is. So it is a bare instrument, and you could put it on your computer, on your phone, you can put it on a piece of paper if you want. It's uh it's basically um, you know, a secret. So um, you know, whatever you can encode it into words, for example, and that's typically how people back things up. If you have like a 24-word uh seed phrase or something to that effect, um, it becomes sort of like a de facto password for all of your money. Um, so you can you can certainly do that. There, there's a lot of different ways in which you can back it up, but it the the key thing is that it's a bare instrument. If if uh if you don't want someone to have it, then you just keep that thing a real secret and like put it in uh such a way that it's uh it's secure. Um with gold, uh what you would do is put it in your safe or something like that. Um, in which case it can actually kind of be taken away. But with Bitcoin, if you back, you can back it up in like pieces. So you can have like one piece here, one piece there, one piece somewhere else, and uh, you know, this is what you would call multi-sig, something like that. And you would need two of three of those. Um, this is how like the nuclear football works with the president, right? You need two of three of them in order to actually uh launch a nuclear weapon. Um, it and you can kind of treat Bitcoin like that, uh, as uh something that requires multi-sig um and uh requires two of three keys and three different geographic locations to make it more difficult to steal and so on. So um it has security properties that uh that other bearer instruments historically have not had, and that makes it a lot easier. Um there are people that keep the keep Bitcoin in their brains, right? Like they just memorize it, don't write it down anywhere. And um, in that case, it's really unconfiscatable, uh, at least with gold. Um, if you if you know your history, executive order 6102 uh issued by Franklin D. D. Roosevelt, he he he basically made it illegal for private citizens to own gold. And uh, you know, basically everyone had to turn their gold in. Um, you know, this and you know, theoretically they could have gone into each person's home and searched and like basically confiscated the gold. Um, even if it came to that, they they couldn't take your bitcoins away. And that's uh it gives you property rights that are far beyond um you know what have traditionally been true of bearer instruments, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But doesn't Bitcoin make it in terms of the morality of the the system itself, doesn't it encourage people? Well maybe encourage isn't the word, but makes it a lot easier for people to hide what they have and or or what they're selling, because obviously that's one of the the problems is um is selling a lot of illegal things, um, arms and drugs and things like that, um, on the on the dark net. Um isn't that one of the moral hazards of of the system?
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't say that's a moral hazard per se. That that's really just what someone like uh you you have the choice be as the person that owns the thing to reveal, you know, how you're using it. Um so I would say that that's more private than other things. And what you might think of as quote unquote illegal in one country is totally like kind of an injustice in another country. So I work with uh Alex Gladstein of the Human Rights Foundation, who uh who was a co-author of mine in uh in the Little Bitcoin book. And one of one of the things that he he points out, and why he's so interested in Bitcoin, is because if you're a human rights activist in an authoritarian regime, um and the authoritarian regime doesn't like you, the first thing they do is seize your bank account, right? Um the US government is actually have have been guilty of the same thing. They uh right right now there's um uh there's a bill before Congress, I think, where you know you you're you're allowed to discriminate against uh you know businesses that you don't like. So if they don't necessarily uh think that you are doing something that's moral in the bank size, right? Like um, you know, if you're a gun seller or something like that, they can shut down your bank account. And many, I'm sure, will. And and this is this financial um censorship or financial restriction is the first sort of like bullet used by authoritarian regimes, by any government really, uh, to oppress its people. And and this this has happened all over the world. So I it's it's one thing to say, okay, well, you know, we don't uh, you know, you're you might be doing some illegal transactions with it, um, and it makes it easier for the government to catch you. But like, you know, the the laws that are being enforced by that, that that's the real issue is that um, you know, the government already has a lot of tools to do those, but just because the government says this is illegal doesn't necessarily make it moral or immoral. Um, it's it's just what they want to enforce and what they say uh, you know, is true. I mean, like even during COVID, right? Like there are there a lot of governments were saying, hey, you're not allowed to go to church. And if you are convicted to go to church, you know, I I would say that's an immoral law. Um, just because there's a law in the books doesn't mean that uh Christians have to obey them.
SPEAKER_02Right. But aside from people buying illegal stuff and spending um in immoral ways, people it it's a lot easier to hide. I mean, it's why a lot of people like in the service industry and everything like to just deal in cash because they don't have to report. Um so I guess that could already be done. Um, but but if the whole system is based on uh Bitcoin for the whole society, what what taxation system is uh even compatible? Or I I mean, I know that you identify as a a Christian libertarian, so I don't know the even the extent to which you think there should be any taxes. Um, but what what what kind of uh I mean, because if you're gonna live in a society and there is going to be a society, there's gonna be infrastructure and military and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean, I I I think uh some sort of like, yeah, you know, like the this is how the United States operated for over 100 years was uh, you know, the federal government uh use consumption taxes or tariffs and things like that. Um and those those uh tariffs are more or less easier to enforce because you as long as you know where the borders are, well, like as they come into the ports of entry, you you tax it right there. There are other sorts of consumption taxes that can happen, uh like uh, you know, sales taxes and things like that. Um, I think income taxes. Uh highly immoral. I think uh, but but the worst tax of all is the tax, uh the hidden tax of inflation. And that's uh one that is done without any sort of consent. It's it's done, it's completely taxation without representation. It's because some you know bureaucrat decides we're gonna print more money and you've essentially confiscated people's savings. Um, and not just in the US, again, it's all over the world. So it in a way it's uh it's even more immoral. Uh, but yeah, I don't think we need to necessarily uh think that uh the current way of doing things, which is uh government collecting taxes through income taxes and um you know consumption taxes and uh wealth taxes and death taxes and things like that, uh is kind of like what needs to happen. Uh there have been plenty of societies that haven't had those kinds of taxes, and it's been fine. Uh there have been other ways to uh collect revenue for a government. Um, and certainly like uh if there was some sort of competition for a lot of this stuff, especially like uh, you know, policing and education and things like that, they they would get a lot more efficient. Um, and you know, uh a lot of the services that we look to the government for uh could probably be done in the uh by the fair uh by the free market in a much just and fair, much more just and fair way than it is being done now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So if and and I was thinking about that flat tax, and maybe that would be uh a system that would be uh really the only way to make it happen if the whole thing is based on like if people are being paid by their employers with Bitcoin, um there would have to be some government record of that, uh, which is the thing I the the IRS figured out was if we take it off the top, we don't have to, you know, from from the employers, then um right off the top of their paycheck, then we get our money. Um, but if the whole system is is uh is Bitcoin, how would it even be true? I mean they can still find it the point of sale, like you think you you're okay with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, um a lot of stuff is self-reported, um, anyway, and it it it it worked fine when it did. Uh obviously it puts more of the onus on that individual business owner or the individual, and it's up to them to report it properly and so on. Um, but yeah, that's the issue.
SPEAKER_02Like because you because what one of the things you said in the book is Bitcoin is a system that turns our individual sinfulness into our economic salvation, but like the the the tendency to like we think about like Ananias and Sapphira, like that's our tendency is to want to hide what we what we have, right?
SPEAKER_01And and we'll be punished by God if we do that, right? Like that that that to me, um, like there there will be probably people that try to hide from income taxes. But and you know, I mean, depending on your position on eco income taxes, I I I think it's highly immoral. I think it's um seizure of property, and I think it's uh highly illegitimate. Um, and this this is something that we could get into with natural rights philosophy and how much uh you know how much we have a right to property and like seizure by government or by like a robber with a gun. Um, you know, I I don't think there's really that much difference because it's uh, you know, they're gonna throw you in prison prison if they if they don't get this thing from you um and it it's it it happened without your consent to a large degree and so on. Um so I I I don't know if there's like necessarily a uh a moral imperative to go and uh and do exactly what the government says all the time. Uh like I think uh for Christians, um, you know, like really look at the uh story of Jesus saying, you know, render unto Caesar what's what's Caesar's and render unto God what's God's. And if you really study that story and uh and you know understand what he was talking about, he he really wasn't saying obey the government and pay whatever taxes that they give you. He was actually saying something to the effect of, you know, like, all right, what's legitimately God's? Everything. What's legitimately Caesar's? Nothing. And uh, and that that's you know, the the coin had um that that he was shown had a picture of Tiberius Caesar and essentially proclaimed him to be the son of the divine Augustus, all right. That was the inscription that one was on it. It's a piece of prop propaganda uh essentially proclaiming Tiberius Caesar to be God. Um and he was pointing out the Pharisees' um you know hypocrisy in their worshiping, essentially, uh in their saying that they're worshiping God, but really they were using this coin to pay tribute to Caesar and uh recognizing Caesar as an authority that they really shouldn't. And he he was being subversive in that regard and saying, you know what, you you're you're not giving enough of yourself to God. And uh, and you know, like whose image is on this coin? Well, whose image do we bear, right? Like we're supposed to give ourselves to God. And and that's the thing. Um, like government authority is an authority, and uh, you know, as Romans 13 says, like it really is uh authority that's placed there by God. And, you know, if if you're doing something wrong, period, uh, and you get punished for that, then you know, that's just God's justice. But if you're getting punished for something that uh, you know, you didn't that you shouldn't be punished for, then that's treasure in heaven and you win either way. So, like all of that is to say there will always be sort of like uh um some degree of the government trying to assert its authority and taking um your property more or less, uh which I I I view income taxes as part of that. And you know, I mean, you might not agree, or maybe that's a little too radical for you, but I think I I think I can uh support that with scripture. Um, and and to to say, okay, well, then you know, how you're you're uh you're making it more difficult for the government authority to enforce its laws. Well, yeah, because their laws are not always good and their laws are not always God's law. So in a sense, like worrying about that rather than worrying about like how much we're uh able to obey God as a result, um, like that we're we're kind of talking about two different things there, right? Like we want to be obeying God, not obeying the state, um, especially when the two come into conflict.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, you really for the um for the whole system of Bitcoin to really work, like the entire society would really have to embrace the libertarian ideals, right? I mean, it's not enough to just say, well, I think I can profit off of blockchain or that blockchain makes makes uh sense to me as a as a financial uh you know uh instrument, but you really because it when you start to think about like what holds the society uh together and how so much of that is uh is the economic system. Um and so when you uh when you take apart uh the economic system, um I mean it almost seems like for this to really take hold, uh somebody would have to go start a new uh nation state almost where the whole society, like the employers pay in in Bitcoin, the the um the the employees they when they go into the marketplace, they spend Bitcoin. And then some somehow there's uh there's uh some kind of quasi-government, something that is going to be taking a portion of the sale and then investing that into roads and things like that, unless you think in in like the rawest form of libertarianism that the the the people should just voluntarily say we want a road, like we're gonna all pony up and um and build it.
SPEAKER_01Well, well, so I I I think um you're coming from the perspective of how do we make the current society exactly the same except with Bitcoin or something like that. And the thing is, we we don't really necessarily know how everything will evolve, right? Like uh, and you're right, there probably will be a different monetary system. Certainly the central banks that uh governments rely on will probably go away. I mean, they generally go away on their own anyway. Uh the average lifespan of a uh you know fiat currency is something like 23 years. And uh the US dollar is about 50 years old in terms of fiat currency since the cutoff from gold in 1971. So uh like the this idea that you know we we we need government to do X, Y, and Z, that's a pretty modern idea, right? Like the it and it came mostly to the forefront during the New Deal and stuff, where government had to do X, Y, uh pretty much everything. Um, the Erie Canal in the, you know, during the Gilded Age, this is 1870 to 1910, was built entirely with private funds. So it's entirely possible to have private funds uh or private enterprise essentially build stuff like roads or whatever. And uh we don't necessarily need a giant government that takes care of absolutely everything. Um, you know, generally the libertarian position is that government should be there to, you know, um uh essentially adjudicate a bunch of things, right? Like uh if if somebody is going around murdering people, they should go arrest them and do something with that, um, and to provide for a common defense, you know, in case somebody tries to come invade the country or whatever. Uh a lot of the other stuff that that currently the government is quote unquote in charge of right now, such as you know, building roads or educating, you know, um uh educating kids or you know, uh providing health care to people that can't afford it or or or or whatever, they're they're not traditionally things that governments did. And if you go back even like 150 years ago, that like no government did this. It's it's a fairly modern phenomenon. So um in a sense, I I think going back to sort of the previous era, um, something like uh the Gilded Age, the uh you know, 1870 to 1910 when the world was on the golden stand uh gold standard and governments were much smaller, armies were much smaller, and uh and you know, like there wasn't all of this uh, you know, like dependence on government for all things uh in life. Um, I don't think that's a bad thing. Now, asking questions about, okay, well, all right, the government's building roads now, who's gonna build the roads? Or, you know, the government's collecting taxes so they can, you know, provide uh healthcare or scholarships or whatever. Um, you know, like exactly how how is that going to resolve? Well, I mean, there will be disruption in all of those things for sure. And I don't know exactly how it'll resolve, but it will resolve. Markets are very good at figuring those things out. And if there's a need for something, this is where entrepreneurs step in and say, okay, well, there's a need. I can fill it and charge some money and make a profit. Um, this is ultimately what we Christians are called to do, right? He who steals must steal no longer, but rather he must labor performing with his own hands what is good so that he will have something to share with one who has need. It's it's all about doing work that is profitable, that that helps other people, and uh, and we can get paid for it. And that's that's what prices and money and uh a working, functioning economy does. Uh, but we have this very kind of corrupt and immoral system with lots of cronyism and money printing and grift and rent seeking um that ultimately cause a lot of people instead uh to do things that uh you know don't don't make sense or are completely inefficient or uh essentially dig ditches and fill them out up again. So yeah, I mean, like, do I know who's going to build the roads or how how government's going to collect taxes like in a in a post-Bitcoin uh in a Bitcoin standard world? I don't. And I don't think we need to know. I I we what we do need to know is that it's a lot closer to God's design of money and a lot further away from the current design, which is very much in control by a few people that collect uh you know the wealth from everybody else for their own benefit. Um, and I I think that's the world that we should go towards and we're morally obligated to go towards.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I totally agree that there has been tremendous government overreach, you know, to and that's the understatement of the the century. And it's gonna keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger, you know. When you think about like the um advent of the welfare state and and how really the church, Christians, we abdicated our responsibilities for for caring for the poor. And so guess what? You know, the government decided we'll we'll make a department for that and we'll start um we'll start taxing people for that. And and churches, you don't have to um keep your tax exempt exempt status, and you don't have to even really worry about uh doing that kind of work anymore. So, what are some of the key biblical themes, uh passages, um foundations that you look to to support this? Because this is it's not just about Bitcoin as we're discussing, it's it's really more about an overall worldview of the role of of government, um, which in our view of the role of government is so based on our theology in many ways. What are the theological underpinnings of of this mindset?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think the principle of sowing and reaping is a very good one. And that's uh, you know, in in a lot of passages, uh, especially by Paul, right? Like the idea that you sow, uh you reap what you sow, right? And uh and the idea is that you have to put in the work to sow first before you can reap the fruits of it. Um, and that that's uh that from a monetary perspective, that would be like saving up to go get something. Um, the current fiat system is completely the reverse. So um essentially the entire system runs on debt. So um at every level, at the personal level, at the company level, at the government level, everyone is up to their eyeballs of debt. And you can see this in sort of like all the numbers that are thrown out there about you know how indebted the United States is, right? $27 trillion um, you know, federal deficit. There's also, you know, like a corporate bond market, right? That's essentially the debt that corporations have, and it's a tremendous amount of trillions of dollars. Uh city and state governments, they're those are municipal bonds, and you can see you know how much in debt they are. Um, even personally, you know, like most people have large mortgages, uh, maybe they're in credit card debt. You know, they we're we're all up to our eyes, eyeballs in debt. And the thing about debt is that it reverses the sowing and reaping. You get to reap first, right? You get to get whatever you want first, and then you're enslaved for however long that you owe that debt. As the Bible says, uh, I think it's in Proverbs, you know, debtor is servant to the lender. And this is uh, you know, this is what happens when you reverse this principle of sowing and reaping is that instead of going and you know, saving up to get what you want, you you if you get what you want first, then you're enslaved. And any any parent can tell you, right? Like, it's much better to make your kid save up and get something than to give them what they want and then like you know, fulfill an agreement, uh, you know, oh, you'll do chores for the next three weeks or whatever. That that doesn't work, right? As a parent, it's it's it's not gonna work. They don't have the personal discipline to do that. And not surprisingly, this uh this has had a corrupting effect all through at all levels of society, including you know, the personal level, people tend to be a lot more materialistic when they could get whatever they want right now, right? Like it just takes your credit card or whatever. Uh companies tend to be the same way, right? They could get whatever they want right now, they just have to issue some corporate bonds or you know, get a loan from a commercial commercial bank or whatever, and they get what they want now. Uh, who cares about profit? And that that's generally how a lot of corporations are run, especially startups right now. Um, and governments too, right? It's it's not about like spending within your means, right? It's not about collecting enough revenue uh and making sure that you stay within that revenue. They spend it on whatever they want, and they're not particularly uh particularly price sensitive to anything. Um, and it it essentially corrupts um character at all of those levels. And we can see um uh the effects of that all through society and all through like the political discourse and everything else. Um, yeah, everyone wants everything right now. Um, no one talks about you know how how things are going to be in the future, really, except to accuse the other side that you know they're they're ignoring that. Uh, but biblically, you know, we're we're supposed to sow and then reap, right? Save and then get get what we want. And um, and the mut uh and the problem there is the money. The money is uh essentially encourages this uh backwards way of looking at things and be becoming a slave to everything else. Um uh instead, with uh with something like Bitcoin, with sound money, you you get the sowing and reaping effect, um, you know, where debt is not very easy to go get, right? It's very easy, easy right now to go get credit. If you think about getting a 30-year uh mortgage right now, I think it's like 3% or something like that, which is kind of ridiculous. Uh, like you can get a 3% loan for 30 years. Um, and there's nobody on the other side of the trade. Because if you think about it, as an investor, would you ever take, you know, uh an investment, which might fail, by the way, right? And get uh over 30 years, uh like 3% over 30 years, that'd be a terrible investment. No one, no one would ever sign up for that investment, but that happens all day long because it's money created out of nothing. Um, and uh and debt in sort of a sound money uh society is is more expensive, and therefore it causes you to save your own money and get interest on that through uh through various um you know ways to loan it out and and and create value that way uh and uh and reap at the end of the uh uh the process instead of at the beginning. Um and I I I I think ultimately that's God's design for the world, right? He he created things to, you know, like uh, you know, you don't get the baby first and then are pregnant for nine months. It's uh you know, you're pregnant for nine months and then you get the baby. That's that's how it's supposed to work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, it I think we've all just been become numb, or not all of us, but many of us have become numb just watching the news, hearing about oh, the next bill. No, it it ought to be two trillion dollars, not you know, three trillion dollars, or it ought to be uh, you know, we ought to be sending out checks for you know uh ten thousand dollars and not for four thousand dollars. And it's like where is where is this even coming from? Like where is this because I we know there's not a a surplus, like we know that the the deficit and the and the national debt is just continuing to to skyrocket. And like why would we think that somehow that's gonna be reversed? Like, like you said, it's sowing and reaping.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it's definitely sowing and reaping. And uh, and the thing is like um as a result of that, like uh we're we're kind of brought into sin without really even knowing that we are. Um, and this reminds me of like a a lot of the you know, like old testament rules, right? About okay, if you accidentally do this, then you need to make the sacrifice. And you know, if you accidentally become unclean, you have to go through these rituals to clean yourself. Um, in a sense, like when when we're getting these mortgages, um, you know, like, or you know, getting into credit card debt or whatever, um, all of that is again printed from nothing, right? It comes from nothing. It's printed on your behalf for your own benefit. Um, and uh clearly you're benefiting because you're getting a large amount of capital right away. The bank's benefiting because they're getting interest basically risk-free. Um, you know, uh, usually um mortgages are uh insured by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and they they make sure that the bank doesn't have any risk. Even if you default on the mortgage, they'll they'll cover it for for the banks and so on. Um but uh you know who's the the economic question then is well, who's actually getting hurt by that? Like if it's just good for me and good for the bank, and well, some somebody's losing out here. Well, the people that are losing out are all of the dollar holders, right? And this includes, again, not just people in the United States, but people in all sorts of other countries, including North Korea, where you know the dollar is the currency that everyone wants in the market. Uh, I think it's uh second is the euro and third is the Chinese yuan. But basically, everyone wants the dollar because that that's the currency that will store value the best. Um, and you're stealing from those people every time you're taking out a mortgage. Every time a company issues a new bond issue. And more money is printed out of existence and uh into existence in order to uh buy those. Every time uh the government uh spends $1.9 trillion and doesn't have the revenue to pay for it, this is all coming out of the pockets of the poorest people in the world. Um, and that that's to me, like uh, you know, when the Bible talks about widows and orphans and things like that, it's it's not necessarily, you know, people down the block. So though certainly there are those people too, but it's people all over the world that are getting hurt because uh you know, because of the little things that we're doing. And we're we're brought into this, like uh all of these sins uh without really even knowing it, right? Like uh, you know, we're we're robbing all of robbing. Uh I think Jesus accused the Pharisees of robbing widows and orphans. And you know, we we we read that and we're going, well, I mean, did they really? Like, okay, well, they're they're imposing these like uh very harsh rules on them. We're we're kind of doing the same thing because the dollar hegemony, uh, especially in the from the US, like has monetary imperialism over most of the world. So uh for me that that's very convicting. And I speak as a man that has a mortgage on his house. Um, but you know, getting out of that and uh and putting things right, I I I think is is something that we really have to think through because scripturally you're not supposed to steal, and that's kind of what we're doing. Um, and that's you know, and we can't excuse it just because it's a fractions of a penny for you know from each person or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Is there a a disproportionate representation of Christians who are in in this Bitcoin movement? I mean, like committed followers of Christ, or is it pretty much uh across the board in terms of the demographics of the um the worldviews and the and the types of people that kind of are are most are the earliest adopters of this?
SPEAKER_01Well, the earliest adopters are the libertarians and programmers like me. So I I got in especially early because I'm both. Uh, but you know, a lot of libertarians are in the community because they like the idea of self-sovereign money. They've also studied what the Fed does and understand monetary policy and how it affects uh society a little bit better. Um certainly there's a lot of technologists and uh programmers and things like that because you know, like it's just kind of interesting from that perspective. Um, I have met a lot of Christians. Um, certainly the the people that I co-wrote the book with, they they they are people I met on my Bitcoin journey and we discover, we discover, hey, you're you're Christian, um, I'm Christian. Hey, let's uh let's talk about this stuff. Um, I I don't know if there's uh you know more Christians than say in um you know some other industry or more than average or anything like that. But what I will tell you is that for a lot of people in the Bitcoin community, there's a lot more interest in Christ, uh like as a result of Bitcoin. So I know, for example, a lot of friends that were agnostic or atheists um that are asking questions, right? Um, okay, I've been lied about money uh, you know, all my life. What else am I being lied to about? And they're quickly discovering, okay, yeah, God, that's definitely something. And they they ask sort of like the deep long-term questions because um, you know, one of the things that Bitcoin does is it lowers your time preference and make it it has you thinking in decades instead of months. Um, and that helps them sort of like put things into perspective and say, hmm, yeah, I I really need to think about what's going to happen, um, you know, like once I die and things like that. And uh, you know, I uh you know, a lot of my friends that are agnostic, atheists or whatever, you know, they they're very open to church and they're like, hey, like let me know next time you're going to church and uh, you know, like take me with you so I can I can see what this is all about. Um so I I wouldn't necessarily say that Christians are strongly attracted to Bitcoin, but I will say Bitcoiners are definitely more attracted to Christianity as a result.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But it it seems like for it to take hold in a Judeo-Christian society, there will have to be more um people like yourself doing the the theological uh uh heavy lifting to make the case for it, you know, to to make the case for because I mean the the financial system is the there's a lot of move toward a more egalitarian society and um uh but the the financial system is the ultimate patriarchal uh top-down uh system that is has just been really really unchecked in in so many ways. And um but I I think for it, I mean it's it's wise to really reach out to the Christian community to because a lot of Christians tend to think, well, new stuff is bad. Um and and so um it's just a theology, it's a it's a worldview. And and so I don't as I said before we started recording, I don't know if Bitcoin is the is necessarily the right system, but it we definitely have to have something uh a drastic, drastic change because as you said, um we're we're reaping what we've sown and we're not going to uh reap uh what we haven't sown. So things have got to change. Um, this has been uh really fascinating. I I know is up at the front of the interview, we started talking about some of the details and and just my own thinking, like understanding the mining part. I still don't understand that, but but I know we can go to programmingbitcoin.com uh to learn more of the the technical aspects of it. But um anything else you want to say, parting advice, Jimmy, as we wrap it up?
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, thank you for having me on your show. Um I I really do want to uh help Christians to understand what Bitcoin is. Um and you know, I honestly like from a very uh there there are sort of like philosophical levels to Bitcoin that I can I can talk about, but just from a very practical standpoint, I I really don't want uh you know uh a lot of people to you know be financially oppressed. And I think that's coming. I I I think we can kind of see it in a lot of places where um you know governments are getting more authoritarian and you know, um there there will come a day when Christians are labeled domestic terrorists and we'll be, you know, like see our bank accounts will be seized and um you know we'll we'll have to figure out some other way to transact and so on. So um, I I think that's probably going to happen in China at some point. They already have something like a social credit score. So all of this stuff is coming. And I I want us as a community to be prepared and uh from from just a very practical nuts and bolts point of view. Also, like uh, you know, there's just a tremendous amount of money printing, and a lot of the uh savings that we have are being stolen out from us. Um, a lot of people are putting their money into uh, you know, index funds and uh real estate and stocks and maybe even gold. Um, but all of that is um is inflated uh as a result of the money printing. I would suggest that Bitcoin um at least has some uh uh you know place in your portfolio um in thinking through all of these uh issues. Um and it's it's not about uh I mean, certainly it's nice that the price has gone up, uh I think on a 200% per year on an annualized basis for for the last 10 years. Um that's certainly nice, but more importantly, like it's a hedge against sort of like the the evil that's coming and uh all of the authoritarianism that's coming. So um hopefully you guys can check out my book, uh Thank God for Bitcoin. I wrote it with uh seven other people um like from all across sort of like the Christian spectrum, right? We have um you know uh Southern Baptists, uh, we have a couple of Orthodox, we have uh Progressive, we have uh Pentecostal, we we even have a missionary that's uh from Uruguay that that that helped write the book. So um, you know, it gives you a moral argument for Bitcoin, um, really the moral case against the current system and then how Bitcoin fixes a lot of the ills that we see in society today. So hopefully that's helpful. And um, if you are interested, uh yeah, go check out my book. It's available on Amazon.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Thank God for Bitcoin. That's the name of the book. And and by the way, Jimmy, I know somebody has their phone out right now and they're trying to go buy Bitcoin and they're not even listening to what we're saying. What can how do they know for sure they're buying Bitcoin and not some of the other um, you know, yeah, altcoins or something?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I I would suggest if you if you really want to go uh you know get off zero, as we say in the community, um, like go uh use something like Cash App. Um, it's very similar to Venmo, uh, but it has the option for you to go directly buy Bitcoin. Um Jack Dorsey, um, I I know a lot of people don't like him necessarily because of uh uh you know his stance on censorship and stuff like that. But uh, but you know, he he's uh you know he's a big Bitcoin supporter and and things like that. So uh you can go buy straight in the app uh if you have your phone. Um you can just go download Cash App, put in your debit card and go buy it like within like five minutes. Um, the other options that I recommend are Swan Bitcoin and River Financial. Um, both of them are Bitcoin only, and both of them encourage what's called dollar cost averaging. And if you're familiar with that, it's just some fixed amount on a regular interval uh being invested. Um, that way you don't have to care so much about like when you're buying the dip or is is right now the right time. Instead, it's just sort of averaging it over a long period of time. And generally, that's a lot easier mentally to do than to uh try to time the market. Uh, if you try to time the market, you're gonna drive yourself crazy, uh, or have to take lots of trading seminars and figure out like what the possible signals are and stuff. Um, I I I generally recommend like you not spend that much time doing that, just just dollar cost average. It's going to be a lot simpler and you can just do a small amount every you know day or every week or every month or something like that. And that's uh generally easier for most people.
SPEAKER_02Got it. And it's it's Bitcoin, it's not Bitcoin Cash or Bitcoin stash or anything like that. It's Bitcoin, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash is uh, you know, is a fork of Bitcoin, and a lot of their advocates like to say that they're the real Bitcoin. They're not, they they're they're trading at like less than one percent of the price of Bitcoin. That's how you know. So one Bitcoin is fifty-six thousand dollars as of this uh recording. Um, but you know, it's divisible down to uh eight decimal places. So you can buy uh you know one twentieth uh uh you can buy one satoshi, which is the smallest unit of Bitcoin, uh for one twentieth of a penny if you wanted to. But I don't know if anyone will sell you that small an amount, but it it is possible. So it's extremely divisible. You can buy five bucks worth, a hundred bucks worth, or whatever. Uh, but yeah, do not go to bitcoin.com, go to uh SwanBitcoin River.com or uh you know use the cash app on your phone. Um, you know, there are several other places to buy it, but those are the ones I recommend because it's very easy and what you're buying is Bitcoin and it's uh it's pretty straightforward.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And folks, better yet, go to programmingbitcoin.com first and learn more about um what Bitcoin is all about before you start to invest in things that you don't know about. Um, but I I do hope that this um episode has been enlightening for folks. Um Jimmy, really appreciate you. So glad to connect with you and appreciate your time today.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you. Uh it was a pleasure being on the show.
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