Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Rick Martinez. Rick is the Associate Dean of Undergraduate Business Programs and a professor of business administration in the College of Business and Entrepreneurship at North Greenville University. He's published in numerous peer-reviewed journals and is also the co-editor of the Center for Christianity and Businesses Christian Business Review, which I know you're all familiar with, and I'm sure you've all read all the articles in there. Um Rick has written a number of outstanding articles there. And he is the 2020 recipient of the Christian Business Faculty Association's Sharon Johnson Award for significant contributions and scholarship that integrates the Christian faith with business principles and practice. Prior to his academic career, Rick spent six years in the U.S. Navy operating nuclear power plants on surface ships. He has a PhD in management from Texas AM. Rick, it's been a long time coming. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_03Well, thanks for having me, Darren. It's uh this will be fun. I look forward to talking with you.
SPEAKER_01Me too. So as we get started here, uh our theme here is gonna be innovation. How should we think about innovation from a biblical perspective?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, um any anytime we think about business and and doing well in business and doing good things in business, um, innovation is at the at the top of the list. And it's in general, innovation is increasingly necessary to remain competitive in most industries, um, especially as uh you know technological development um doubles every few years. Uh so we need to teach one another what that means. We need to teach one another how to engage in innovative practices. Um, and we have to understand what it means and we have to define our terms. And when I talk about innovation or when we teach about it, when we uh work with others to develop that capacity, basically we're talking about an improvement uh in one or more aspects of our technology tools or methods uh for interacting with our environment or with our world. Um that's a broad term, but uh improving uh those technology tools or methods um that creates value. And and this is something that we're all called to do is to create value. Um, Christians uh or not, we're all we're all going to be better off when we create value. And and the thing is, it's not obvious how to do innovation. It's not obvious how to do it. It doesn't come naturally to everyone, but the value is significant. It's uh, you know, for for believers, we understand that innovation is a natural extension of reflecting the image of God, uh, the God who is a creator, God who is a designer, God who is a builder. Uh, and he's called us uh to reflect that image in the marketplace, in business, uh, and all the things that we do. And innovation is a big part of that because it really makes things new, it creates value. So there's a lot of ways of understanding uh the impact and the benefit of innovation from a Christian perspective. But uh again, it's not just a Christian thing. Um when once we get into you know exploring what innovation actually means and and where we see it, um, we recognize that uh it's just a double-edged sword. And that's uh a big part of where our Christian principles come into play. We can do a whole lot of innovation, we can come up with a whole lot of things, but what we do with that, uh that creates deeper conversations when we put a biblical perspective on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It it seems like the the secular humanist has has basically high, I don't know, hijacked the concept of innovation or if the if the Christians have just sort of abandoned or or kind of looked upon innovation as being something that's like unbiblical. Um I don't know if it's because for the for the humanists and the whole push of um of evolution, and then the Christians, oh, anything that's like evolving or or technological development must be must be bad. It must be something that is is um that God is not is not into. Uh is there anything in scripture to support the notion of constantly pushing the limits of technology or the being disruptive innovators and just being on the bleeding edge of kind of the next thing in technology from a from a Christian perspective?
SPEAKER_03You know, excuse me, that's a great point. Um, that uh, you know, as you know, politically speaking, even culturally, culturally speaking, as Christians see themselves more and more as conservative as though that's what we're supposed to be, uh, does that mean we're just supposed to do everything um the old way or the same way? Of course not. That's that would be silly. Um biblically speaking, you know, when when God uh put the first humans in in the garden and and gave them the charge to to create, to do, to work, um inherent in that is is to build, uh build anew, constantly build anew, constantly create. We have uh we are, as I mentioned, created in the image of God, and and God, his nature is constantly creating order out of chaos. And uh without going too too far down the the path of uh the concept of entropy, uh, we live in a fallen world. And and and we live in a world in which, you know, to coin a not I'm not coining the phrase, but to repeat a phrase, things fall apart. Uh we live in a world where uh if we walk away from things or leave things or neglect things, they just fall apart. So we're constantly having to put things back together. We're constantly having to reclaim value and salvage value, but at the same time, we are constantly having to create value. That's part of what it means to create order out of chaos. That's valuable. Um that that's something that we all value is creating order out of chaos. And there are new ways, new orders to be more efficient, to be more effective, to do something in a new way in a better way. You know, for instance, uh, well, and we can get into this later, but you know, the greatest commandment to love the Lord your God and to love your neighbor, a big part of how we love our neighbor is meeting their needs. And uh meeting somebody's needs uh implies doing it better and better and better. And that's where innovation comes into play. Christians cannot uh simply sit back and play the conservative game. We have to create and create and create in a way that honors God. And uh sometimes that's gonna look a little bit different than people who are not believers, who are not followers of Christ. We might solve problems in a different way, we might reject some of the solutions that the world offers, but we are definitely called to better and better serve uh serve people and uh to love our neighbors uh through meeting their needs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But isn't the term create something that only applies to to God? Like I mean, because the idea of creating is isn't it uh bringing something out of nothing? And I think there are a couple of different terms used there in the in the creation account, right? One is create, where God truly did bring something out of nothing, but then when it talks about how he formed man, it was it was a nut it was a a different term and the idea of of making. Is it important for us to really think about how we're using these terms?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sure, absolutely. And it you know, God is the creator with a big C, uh, and and we never actually engage in creatio ex niolo, creation out of nothing, uh, because God has always given us something. Um, but we do create, even if it's with what God put before us, we create solutions to problems um that we didn't know about before or that did not exist before. Uh, we create value uh that did not exist in our realm. And again, God allows us to do this. Uh it's nothing that God couldn't have done on his own, uh, but he you know calls us to be partners in in the work with him. And a big part of that is discovering solutions to problems, discovering new value, et cetera. So it's not exactly creato ex nielo, uh creation out of nothing, but um to us, uh from our perspective, uh, when when we didn't know how to do something before and and now we do, that's that's a creative act on our part. That's creation with the little c. And uh that's that that brings glory to God. So we definitely want to engage in that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, because there's nothing new under the sun, right? As it says in in Ecclesiastes, we're really just repurposing what God has has already made. And that that's a very humbling thing. And I think it it maybe that would um minimize the just the arrogance that comes and I know you've written about um bat the tower of babel and that whole uh scenario, and how that we can so easily fall back into that. Um, how do we avoid that?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I think in the end, we don't. Humanity won't avoid that. Um, the the hubris that we're starting to see uh in in the world around us, there there are some amazing things going on in this world, things that are actually uh you know incredibly exciting. Uh finding solutions to problems that we thought were unsolvable, finding new ways to do things that uh never would have occurred 15, 20 years ago. There are some exciting things going on, and we either give God the glory for that or we glorify ourselves. And we're starting to see uh the rise of um the scientific community, people in uh uh other communities that are wanting to take the credit uh for the creation that we're seeing, for the innovation we're seeing, for the solutions we're seeing. Uh you know, I've I've been writing and exploring recently about the the celebration that uh secular humanists are are having now about moving into the post-human world or the transhuman world, where our scientific uh discoveries are so great that basically we've moved from being subjects of evolution to masterminding our own evolution. Uh, and and basically we're God in that perspective, and from a secular human perspective, we don't need a God because we are God. Um, yeah, that's hubris. Um, but from a biblical perspective, we recognize that everything that we do is to bring glory to God and glorify the name of God. And to the extent that he allows us to innovate and and research and design and discover and engineer, et cetera, the to the extent that he allows us to do that, um, again, glory to God. And uh we recognize that this is all part of um the path that God has been leading us in and showing us how to how to uh reflect his image, but not everybody recognizes it the same way. So that's a good point.
SPEAKER_01Rick, what are you optimistic about from a from a Christian perspective? What with all of the I know you talk about the the molecular economy and and there's a lot of things get that can be very when you think about the sanctity of life and uh the the innovations that are happening and biology. What are you optimistic about when it comes to the technological advancements of of our modern times? Um because it it would seem to be very easy to be kind of pessimistic about the the horizon ahead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I I'm optimistic about the fact that um that God allows us to continue to find solutions to problems, that God continues to allow us to create, uh even as we continue to approach our Tower of Babel moments ourselves. Um I'm not I'm not uh entirely optimistic. There's still it's boy, it's hard to be optimistic in the current day and age, isn't it? Uh it's um it's tough. But I I do believe we're gonna continue um as a as a society, as a culture, continue to find solutions to problems. Um the question is, what do we do with that? Um, where does the glory go for that? You know, um C.S. Lewis anticipated this dilemma uh, you know, 60 years ago, uh, when he wrote The Abolition of Man. And a big part of his story in the abolition of man was that humans eventually will abolish themselves uh by becoming their own gods uh through thinking they are their own gods through scientific development, where some men use those uh scientific developments to uh to control all other men. Um and and it's just fascinating seeing 60 years later uh that what he was saying uh is absolutely coming to pass. Um so the hubris is there, but the scientific development is no less awesome. And uh it is our job uh to continue to to innovate, to design, to develop, to do the things that God allows us to do for his glory, and to continue to remind ourselves and remind our culture um who's who this serves, who this glorifies, what you know, what to do with it, what not to do with it. That's our job. That's a big part of why we're here. Um, and I would suggest we have not done that very well. Um what am I most optimistic about is is the fact that even as we continue to become more and more and more secular as a society, even as we continue to go down this path of glorifying humanity and rejecting God, I am optimistic that God is preserving a remnant of his church. And those of us who have knowledge, skills, experience in the business world, we're gonna have a special role in the church. And uh that's that's something we need to be encouraging one another about and building each other up. So that's that's gonna be a fun process.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's good. That is encouraging. So, of course, most of our listeners are probably not working in a laboratory, they're probably not molecular biologists and everything. When you're speaking to the kind of the average small business entrepreneur from a from a biblical Christian perspective, what are the what what's some of the main guiding principles that we need to be really thinking about as we appro as we approach innovation? I I think probably for a lot of us the the temptation is to just kind of rest on our laurels, whatever, whatever has brought us to a certain level of sustainability to pay the bills, make payroll in our businesses. We're just kind of content with that. Um what what is the really the biblical call? What is God's call uh to us to bring us out of that?
SPEAKER_03You know, there's a couple of ways of answering that. One is to recognize that that when you and I, and all of us, we talk about innovation. Um, most people think of technology, but you know, that's that only works as an understanding of innovation if we recognize that technology is not simply things we plug in, it's not things that have circuit boards. Technology is simply the collective ways that we know how to do something, uh, given the tools at our disposal at any given point in time. So technology is not a computer or a phone or whatever. Technology is how we know how to do something. So when we talk about what we can do, uh when we talk about innovation, um you're you're right. Everybody's not in a lab, everybody's not a researcher, um, but every single one of us has scarce resources at our disposal. And and innovation uh is coming up with better ways of accomplish accomplishing what we're doing, uh, more efficient ways, more effective ways, uh, or new ways altogether. And every single one of us can be thinking about that. I um uh this all gets back to the question of what is what is the purpose of business? And uh I don't know, Darren, if I were to ask, I'll turn it around. If I was gonna ask you that, what would what what do you what are what would we normally hear as some of the answers for what's the purpose of business?
SPEAKER_01Um well from not a Christian perspective, one of the famous answers is to maximize shareholder value. Um, I think, I think for me, it is to it is to reflect God, who is God, Jesus. And so therefore, our calling is to make disciples. Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. And we do that in business on an individual level as well as uh as on a on a cultural level. And I think the business really ought to at some point begin to reflect the ways in the and and really the person of of Jesus. So that's what I think it is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's that that's great. And uh uh, you know, for us as as believers, we we approach innovation, we approach improvements in a way that brings glory to God, because that's everything we do is in intended to bring glory to God. That's that's what we're supposed to be doing. Uh but as we get at that purpose of business, um, I've I've always understood it. And this is this is the thing, not just the purpose of business, as I'm going to be told in my finance class and an MBA program or something like that, but God's intended purpose for business. God has an intended purpose for all human institutions. We don't necessarily live up to that, but God's intended purpose, not just a made-up derivative purpose, but his intended purpose is to meet the needs of our neighbors in a way that they can't do for themselves. And some of this comes from a really good book by Jeff Van Duzer called Why Business Matters to God. But we we meet the needs of our neighbors in the a way that they can't do for themselves. That that's God's intention for business. And God's intends for us to provide meaningful work for people. Once we're outside the realm of the garden, the work continues. Uh, the the mandate uh to work continues, even if it involves toil. But God wants us to build businesses that provide meaningful work for people so they can live out their calling. But the third thing is really critical, and and that is Our work and business, our businesses in general, are a part of our partnership in the ministry of reconciliation. Every single believer, once we become followers of Jesus, once we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, doesn't matter whether we're business people or not, whatever we happen to be, there's no reason for us to stay on this earth once we're redeemed, except that God has a purpose for us, a plan for us. And we're called to be partners in the ministry of reconciliation. So the question is how can we use our businesses? How can we use our work in business? How can we use our jobs, our employment to be a partner in the ministry of reconciliation? Because that's it. That's why we're here. That's what brings glory to God in different ways by providing meaningful work, by meeting people's needs, etc. But um that you know, that innovation, innovative purpose, every single person in the business world can can make uh his or her uh workplace better, can can do a job more efficiently, can find a new way of solving problems for uh a neighbor, right? For for a customer, etc. So every single one of us has that ministry in front of us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I mean, because it's it's not about this this concept of disruptive innovation is so positive so popular, and it's like people are setting out to be, I want to be a disruptive innovator. What industry should I go into? And that's just not at all the the heart of God. I mean, God is into reconciling, he's into restoring things that were that were lost, not in like this, you know, Luddite sort of a sort of a way, but in a way that is really advancing and and restoring creation back to its really optimal, optimal state. And um, and and so I it just seems like there's such a um a problem with the way that we set out to uh to innovate. It's not innovation for innovation's sake, but like you said, it's the golden rule. It's do unto others, um, maybe not just what they can't do for themselves, but what they don't have time to do or don't don't want to do, you know, all those things are uh adding value to their to their lives, and that's what that's what God is into, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so it becomes a question too. I mean, how do all of these innovative practices, uh processes, how do these um influence and impact the the ministry of reconciliation? I may I may be innovative in my work and my job, I may own a business uh where we're coming up with creative solutions, et cetera. And that's great. Uh praise God for that. Um, how does that also translate into um enhancing uh our our efforts in terms of uh evangelism, in terms of building up the church, in terms of meeting people's needs? So um, you know, you you used an interesting term, uh disruptive innovation. And uh, you know, that's for people who study innovation and entrepreneurship, that's that's that's pretty exciting stuff, right? That um, you know, punctuated equilibrium and and uh those watershed moments in in the economy, those watershed moments, you know, 2007 is known as a watershed moment. It it's known as a punctuated equilibrium. And what we mean by that is, you know, there was life before that and there's life after that. And 2007 is because so many things were um invented, innovated, designed uh in that time period, including the cell phone, right? Where we we live cell phone lives right now, but that was you know 14 years ago, is um that's that's it. And even the smartphone didn't come along for another four or five years after that. So that was disruptive, that changed people's lives. But one of the things that um I have been really interested in that's fun to talk about, that's fun to study, that's fun to think about. But one of the things that I've I've been concerned about is that disruption, you know, God is great, God allows us to innovate, to to serve people, etc. But if it's what what if it's too much, right? And and and what is too much? And and what happens if it's what it how do we define that? Well, we know that over the course of human history, innovation happens and happens and happens, and then people adapt to it. But we've finally gotten to a point in human history, in in the human narrative, where innovation is happening. Uh, innovation that changes the way we live our lives is happening at a pace that is faster than the human ability to adapt. We know that. Um, yeah, you know, there are some ways of looking at it, there are some numbers associated with that. But uh is that good? Uh, you know, what how do we deal with that? And I don't have all the answers for how we deal with that, um, but I just find it fascinating that we're at this point now where uh this what some people call disruptive innovation is outpacing people's ability to catch up. And we live lives of stress, it means lives of anxiety, it means we've got laws that that have not and regulations that have not caught up to what people can do with with uh with those innovations, uh, etc. etc. So um that it's an interesting time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, one thing we know when because it is outpacing our ability to adapt, that creates more opportunities for innovation, right? To help people adapt. And so it, you know, there's just endless ways of of um of innovating. I think disruptive is just more of a byproduct. Uh I think from what I understand about Clayton Christensen, his he kind of regretted even using the term disruptive because of the the connotation that it's taken on is just sort of like this um, you know, neutron jack sort of approach where we're just gonna try to you know annihilate the competition by coming in and just disrupting everything. That's not necessarily. I mean, if if your heart is really for the for the customer, I love what you're pointing out in terms of reconciliation. I was just thinking about how that really is what a business person does is reconciles um a customer with with their need. And and there's a transaction that takes place all throughout the uh throughout the marketplace. I mean, anytime something is sold in in a way, and I'm I'm haven't really thought too much about it in this in this term, but that's a reconciliation that happens, am I right?
SPEAKER_03That's exactly right. And that's actually um uh you know the subject of of some of the uh the things that I've um talked about with students is is the fact that, especially for marketers and people in the marketing field, marketing function, um, they're they're working towards a mutually beneficial exchange um between a provider and and a receiver, provider and a customer. It without that mutually beneficial exchange, then then you have one person taking advantage of another. But where we have that, that creates conversations, uh conversations that can lead to that ministry of reconciliation. Um on the one hand, we are reconciling uh people who are suffering through a problem or working through a problem or a need, we're reconciling them with solutions, and that's a good thing. And and that that creates a relationship uh and a conversation that we can have about um reconciling them in in other ways that are more important, especially reconciling them spiritually with God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So yeah, yeah, that's good. I mean, and and it's and it's not just in uh an eternal sense of restoring people so that they can get saved and go to heaven, but it's even on uh just on a daily basis. I think the Christian innovator looks for those gaps, those those opportunities to wow, there's um um people are lack, they don't have time to do a certain task. There's an opportunity for a business, uh, so that you can kind of reconcile. Maybe they need more time with their family, maybe they need to spend more time on other things that are that are important to them. So to come in as a service provider to be able to give somebody some time back, I mean, that's uh that's a powerful aspect of of reconciliation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we we live in a world of scarce resources, all of us. And and one of those is time. And anything that we can do, um, and we don't have whether we're business people, whether we're professors, whether we're ministers, whether we're uh mothers and fathers at home, whatever, whatever it is, what anything we can do to become more efficient at things, to to give people time back, um, it is critical. And and that that's a blessing. But that having been said, that that create that leads us uh to some of the more important challenges that we're facing uh in a world where some of the innovation, some of these um, you know, you you mentioned that Clayton Christensen, you know, kind of regretted using that phrase disruptive innovation. Yeah, and a better one maybe uh is is punctuated equilibrium, meaning kind of the same thing. Um but something that really has been a disruptive innovation has been social media. And so we have our cell phones and then we have our our smartphones and the internet, and we get to the point of social media in this world, and it is it's for for lack of a better term, it's a disaster. Um, for the impact, negative impact it's having on people's lives. Yes, of course, there's a positive side to social media, but uh on balance, um, it's getting away from us. And um that how can we help? So it's not just a matter of time, it's a matter of um people having their lives impacted to the point where it changes who they are and it changes who we are as humans and what we want and how and how we interact with each other. How can we help people reclaim that? How can we help people reclaim their lives? How can we help people reclaim their relationships, reclaim society? How can we help people reclaim the time that they've lost uh to social media? Now, many of you listening to this may not struggle with that a whole lot, but I can promise you, your kids or your grandkids um have been changed into people they they would not have been by social media. And uh so as Christians in in the Christian community, we recognize the the brilliance of the innovations of the technology, of the business models, uh, the monetization, etc., of of social media. Okay, but the cost, what do we do about that? How do we speak out? Put people who are addicted to social media in a good place to where they can be reconciled to God through Christ, and and I I think that's a hard, hard place to be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it really comes down to who are we seeking to reconcile them to? Are we trying to is as a Christian, are we trying to reconcile them to God or are we trying to reconcile them to our company or our um just sort of uh uh an agenda that is not Christ-centered, right? Is is that a simplified way of thinking about it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I um uh you know, this is kind of on my heart simply because my wife and my daughter and I watched that uh just an interesting uh Netflix documentary called the The Social Dilemma, which um is is a very, very critical look at at what social media has done to people uh from a lot of the people who were former executives in these social media companies. Um and so that's that's kind of on my heart. And and the language they use is that the social media algorithms, the social media um artificial intelligence, the platforms, the models that they use are aimed at and designed to reconcile the user with his or her account uh on an ongoing basis. So if somebody is away from looking at at the account or looking at the uh the social media product um for too long a period of time, uh they engage in all kinds of actions to reconcile them um with that account because the longer they're on, the more money they make. Um they they they sell that person's they sell that person's time, uh, they sell that person's life to an advertiser. Uh, and the longer they can keep them on, the more money they make. Um so really they're they're engaged in the business of reconciling people to the to the social media product. And it's it's it's very difficult to get people to uh glorify God when they're in the process of either trying to glorify themselves or glorify whatever it is that social media is leading them to uh to to worship, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01Well, Rick, you've really given us a lot to think about here and and some really helpful terms. I know for me personally, the just this concept of the ministry of reconciliation is something that I'm gonna really dig into. Um by the way, that's Second Corinthians chapter five.
SPEAKER_03That's the best place to go there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh as we wrap it up here, what would be a parting piece of advice you would like to leave with our actually before we do that? Um, where can people connect with you? And uh, what are you working on right now?
SPEAKER_03Well, of course, I'm um blessed and honored to serve at North Greenville University. Um and so they can find me through the uh College of Business and Entrepreneurship at uh North Greenville University. Um and the this kind of the kind of stuff that I'm working on now, uh I'm really, really, really concerned about um the future of Christian higher education. And that's not just me. I mean, there are things coming down, coming down the pike here that we have to be concerned about. And so I'm thinking through and mapping out and modeling um uh new ways of doing Christian higher education given the changes that are about to happen. And so, what does Christian higher education look like in the next 15 to 20 years or so? So, and it's it's going to change whether it's going to change, like it or not. Um, the question is, how do we get ahead of that? And how do we how do we ride that wave? How do we change Christian higher education in a way that honors God and um responds to the changes in the marketplace um and in the economy and in and in and the regulations? Um, so that's a big part of what I'm thinking about and and uh exploring, but also this idea of post-humanism and transhumanism and a Christian response to that, very concerned about that. Um because secular humanism has gained such a foothold that as we know, um Christianity and a Christian worldview is becoming not only less prevalent, but um it's being the you know, the we live in a hostile world that that is hostile to the Christian worldview and and Christian truth, biblical truth. Um so given that, how do we prepare the next generation to do business in this hostile world? And and I'm you know, some people are interested in saying, well, people are gonna have a chip implanted in them, and there's the whole 666 thing. I don't know what uh you know, I God has not revealed to me how that's gonna play out. So, but in the meantime, I I do know that that God is God is building up a remnant of his church for this time to come. What does what does business look like in that remnant? So it certainly there's a business that is going to be, you know, Christians will run businesses that are simply in the marketplace, but what happens when when they take that right away? Uh, so these these are things to think through and think about. I'm I'm really interested in the future. I love I'm a history buff. I love learning about the past, but I mostly love learning about the past to try and figure out where we're going. And uh, so that's uh those are the kind of things that keep me busy.
SPEAKER_01Well, I know you're gonna be back uh because we got a lot more to talk about. Um, Rick, what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our listeners today?
SPEAKER_03Oh, probably the main thing would be um to remember that we have no reason to be here on this earth anymore, except to bring glory to God and to do what we were talking about, to be the partners in the ministry of reconciliation. So, what does that look like? Try to understand, pray about. Um, search the scriptures about what that means for you in in your job, in your business, in your calling. What does that mean? Stop trying to stop trying to compare yourself to what people in the secular world are defining as success. Uh start comparing yourself to the person God wants you to be as as part of that. I've looked I only have X number of years left on this earth, and I know God does not intend for me to uh to play the the the secular game. God does not intend for me to compare myself to to people who who he doesn't know. God does not intend for me to waste one moment of the time that he's given me here. Um, I need to know who I am as as this partner in the ministry of reconciliation. And and so I I would encourage everybody to try and understand where you are in in that term.
SPEAKER_01Well said. Rick, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today. Everybody can go to ngu.edu to check out more about uh what the North Greenville Business School has to offer and um and get in contact with Rick there and find out when his book is going to be coming out. Uh, because I know he's got a lot of books he's gonna be uh publishing in the hopefully not too distant future. Rick, we sure appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Darren. It's it's been great. I look forward to having more conversations.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.