Welcome back to the Christianity of Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunn College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, as always, Darren Sheer, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders integrate biblical values into business. And on this episode, we're joined by Sam Boris. Sam serves as the executive director of the Center for Biblical Leadership and also Professor of Leadership at the MacArthur School of Leadership at Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida. Very beautiful place. Prior to academia, Sam had a 30-year career in various roles of senior leadership and humanitarian industry, serving as global director for leadership and organizational development of World Vision International. I know many of you are familiar with the great work World Vision continues to do. Sam is passionate about working with leaders, their teams, and organizations to achieve exceptional performance with a focus on delivering specific strategic support to assess capabilities and expand successes for increased effective leadership and team growth aligned with organizational mission and values. That's a mouthful. I can tell you put some time into that. He holds a PhD in international development education from Florida State University. And he's the author of several articles and publications on leadership, international, and community development. One of those articles he co-authored recently in the latest issue of the Christian Business Review Academic Journal. And though you hear us talking about that on this show, it's a publication by the Center for Christianity and Business. The title of that article is Leading from Within Modeling Biblical Transformation. You can go check that out at Christianityandbusiness.com. Just click on Christian Business Review and that latest issue will pop right up. You can also order that issue on Amazon. Sam, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Good to be here.
SPEAKER_03So the Center for Biblical Leadership, what Sam, what would you say are is the key practical difference between biblical leadership and other types of leadership?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think number one, biblical leadership grounds us as leaders in why we're leading and who we are as leaders. So that from a biblical worldview, if you will, our identity as a leader has to do with who we are in Christ, which starts with who God is, our view of God, and coming out of that, our view of ourselves.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it mostly focuses on the differences, the identity of the leader as a as a Christian leader that that kind of sets you apart from other leaders. Is that kind of what you're saying?
SPEAKER_02Definitely. Where do we get our real worth and value from? Does it come from the leadership itself, the position, the title, the achievement? No. It ultimately comes from who we are in Christ, God's value for us. So we're not looking for value in leading others. We're not looking to get certain kudos and certain positions and climb the ladder and get a title, so that our identity and our sense of purpose and value and achievement is all tied up in, quote, leadership and our roles. No, our identity and value comes from God, who we are in Christ, what He's done for us. And so we're really leading out of a genuine attitude worldview of serving others, helping to grow and develop others. It's not, it's not just about us. And it and it's not only about identity, it's also about why we lead, but also how we lead. We see biblical instruction for leadership in the scriptures, and we see examples of both good and bad leadership in the scriptures for which we can learn.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And there's there's hundreds of thousands of leadership books and leadership models and thousands of leadership conferences, and there's so much teaching out there. And you said in this article that you published with Lane Coey, who was also interviewed on this podcast. People can go back and listen to that one. Um, but you say we suggest that the biggest enabler is not found in another external system or model, but in behavioral change rooted deep within the leader's identity. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02So, to your point, lots and lots, in fact, $360 billion a year is spent on leadership training and development of one sort or another globally, $160 billion in this country alone. Yet the evidence would show that those programs don't produce the results they purport to, and meaning there's no real change in the leader. Leadership effectiveness does not improve as a result of that training. And the difference ultimately is change, transformation. And if the leader themselves is not willing to hold the mirror up and recognize where they need to change, whether that's in their attitude, in their behavior, how their leadership really impacts others, uh there will be no effect. And unfortunately in our society and culture, success of leaders is often determined by producing a task or making money and creating a profit. Now, both of those things are important for leaders to achieve, but they can never be the sole measure of success. So unfortunately, I I can I can I can be a pretty bad leader and make a lot of money. And making that money will just reinforce the fact that I think I'm a good leader when in fact, according to those that I'm trying to lead, I'm not a very good leader at all.
SPEAKER_03And you and Lane have done a great job of showing really what you mean when you talk about the leader's identity and how shame, pride, and this um this search for approval can really just wreak havoc on the leader's identity, which ultimately wreaks havoc on the organization. What is, and you illustrate this in this in a model, what is the shame pride approval model? Can you kind of uh illustrate that for us?
SPEAKER_02Well, it essentially it's a negative cycle, if you will, where my behavior is either being driven out of shame, pride, or approval. So either I'm doing something or not doing something to seek approval from somebody so that everybody likes me. I'm I'm the good guy in the room, I can do no harm. Uh so therefore I refuse to confront somebody, for example, on their performance. I'll have somebody else talk to them while while I'm patting them on the back, telling them they're a good person. So I'm I'm seeking that approval. Uh or I'm I'm not willing to say I'm sorry out of pride. My God, I'm right, I'm the leader, I got the position, I got the title, you know, there's consequences in me being the leader, and it's, you know, I got the right to always be right. And that can come out of pride. So that lack of vulnerability and authenticity uh and willingness to say, I'm sorry, I got it wrong, uh will will make us less effective.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And and in that model, you you were illustrating how the leader is receiving all of these um these the the input are the statements of approval and disapproval. And then the leader is going to process that through the the way that they they feel shame, the way that their pride manifests. And and so it turns into this approval addiction and disapproval avoidance. Um, what what's going on there?
SPEAKER_02Well, here again, that goes back to our uh identity. What where does our true sense of value and worth come from? And and whether it's uh our upbringing and our relationship with a parent or a teacher, and insecurities that resulted, and therefore that need for approval or the shame that we experienced in relationship to an authority figure, uh that cycle will continue to play itself out until we find that really our worth and value is truly in Christ, what he's done for us, and our motivation now to lead others, what what gives us satisfaction in the end is not avoiding shame or uh trying to receive approval or out of pride, but really truly to serve and to help others grow and develop. I would also argue a key piece that's not mentioned here, but that's critical is the addiction to achievement. Uh some of us by personality or workaholics, we get we're satisfied when we're doing something. And that task-drivenness can can blind us to the needs of people. Uh, and and we kind of run over people in the name of getting something done. But we're we're feeling good, and we might get a high mark from our suit because we achieved something, but in the meantime, you know, we we we left a pretty big wake of uh damaged people along the way.
SPEAKER_03And so you talk a lot about self-deception. Where is the self-deception in this?
SPEAKER_02Well, by nature, by human nature, uh, we could argue, and I think the social science would show this, that we're we're we all tend to be self-deceived. And we know biblically by nature, by sinful nature, in the fall of uh human beings, we we we are deceived. And the Bible clearly tells us that over and over. And and what happens is particularly as we go up in leadership, we we tend to think that what made us successful at one level of leadership in one circumstance and condition will cause us to be successful in another. And it's just the opposite. What helped us be successful at one level will in fact often cause us to fail at another level. And so we we either get self-deceived by because we've been we've done so well at this level, uh uh we were knew our job, we were technically experts. Get out of the way, let me do it. I can do it better than anybody else. Then all of a sudden, my job is not doing the job, but developing others to do the job, and it takes a different set of skill sets. I'll give you a personal illustration. Um in one of my early supervisory roles, we did a 360 assessment, and uh this is where, of course, you get feedback from other people on how they perceive your leadership. 360 meaning people you supervise, your peers, and your supervisor. Well, I had a couple of people that I supervised who rated me very low for listening. They said I wasn't a good listener. I was very mad, I was very upset when I read that rating and basically said, where do I get out of this room and call these people? I'm gonna tell them who's a good listener. They're gonna find out who's a good listener right away. I'm gonna let them know. Now, the good news was I went home first. And uh I looked at my wife and my kids and I said, you know, can you believe it? This person rated me down low on listening. I'm a good listener. I've I've taken courses in listening, I've taught other people how to be I'm a good listener, aren't I? And they, of course, they looked up at me, my kids and my wife, and said, Duh, Dad, honey, you're a terrible listener. You you you never stop talking, you you interrupt people, you're terrible.
SPEAKER_01You know, and it was a wake-up call, right?
SPEAKER_03And he and he found, so what'd you do about it?
SPEAKER_02Well, let's just say I slept on it before I called anybody or or or gave any feedback. And then in the end, even though it it hurt, right? It hurt because I thought I was a good listener, and to be told I wasn't hurt. It challenged my self-perception, which was false. Um in the end, I had to thank this person. Thank you for being honest with me. Thank you for risking my air or, if you will, my, you know, which which she would have gotten if I if she'd have been nearby. Uh but uh I I this is what I needed to hear, because I would not have gotten better had I not recognized that in fact, you know, what I thought was true was not.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And and so as Christians, how are we to to handle the shame and and the pride as well?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think it it it starts with confession. And this is where it gets really to the core of the gospel, because if I'm not willing to come before God and realize uh I'm incomplete without Him, I need help, I'm not an independent, self-made person that can do anything you put in front of me. No, I I I need God. And no matter how successful I've been in the world's eyes, whether it's building something, making money, uh, quote, leading people to some destination, uh in the end, I I need help. And so it really starts with that again, self-awareness and coming to Christ in a very humble and honest way, uh, which is not easy for a lot of self-made uh people who have been successful in this world.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And is there a biblical example you like to share? I know you shared uh several of them in the article.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, you you you you take uh a leader like Nebuchadnezzar, I mean, think about, and if you've ever watched any of the replays of the history of that era, and and you could you could go to Pharaoh, but but those grandiose leaders who had so much power, uh so much wealth, it would make uh you know the Palace of Versailles look minsky. Uh and and so by every stretch of the imagination, they had power, wealth. And then God comes into the picture and says, Hey, you're gonna eat grass and you know uh be a crazy person for a while because you've not recognized who's really in control here. And I think if we looked around the corporate world, if you will, of quote, very successful, very wealthy people who we we could see example after example again where where people fall. Jim Collins wrote a book, in fact, to that point, of hubris and pride, how the mighty fall. And it ends up with the lack of recognition of the need outside themselves. And for us as Christians, it's a need for God.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And are there some other modern examples that you would point to of leaders who have gotten this right?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, one that immediately comes to mind, although he's recently passed away, uh, is a gentleman by the name of Peter Drucker. Uh and uh he's of course known as the father of modern management, uh, written dozens and dozens of books. A lot of people, because all of his writing is corporate and and is that wouldn't know that he he he was a Christian, a very firm believer, in fact, had studied theology. And uh one of the things that struck me when I had the privilege of of knowing him and working with him for a period of time, was how genuinely humble he was. And um he he lived in the same little ranch house for 50 years, you know, had no appearance of all the uh accolades and and uh things he had done and achieved and accumulated, and really did genuinely seek to serve in his leadership. Um another one that immediately comes to mind is my current uh president, Dr. Deborah Schwinn, who is the new president of Palm Beach Atlantic University. And uh she, in my estimation, coming into this role right as COVID hit and being faced with all the challenges with a new team and uh uh challenge to keep the university going, despite all of that stress and pressure of budget shortfalls and enrollment and all the rest of it, really has led out of a place of faith security and really focused on building that team and serving others in the midst of those challenges and stresses.
SPEAKER_03And what are some what's some of the practical things that we can do as we um start to wrap it up here? What are what is the call to action for the leaders right now that are listening?
SPEAKER_02I think it's really uh being willing to step back and hold the mirror up and ask for feedback. And that feedback might start with from your spouse or your children or some significant other or even close friend, and it has to go to the people you work with, whether that's again your board, if it's a supervisor, your peers, and especially those you are espoused to be leading. How do they really perceive? How do they interpret your leadership behavior? How does it impact them? I think that it's a very simple and yet often very hard thing that a lot of people do not do. I I uh worked with a lot of corporate construction leaders uh going up, becoming more senior in very large organizations. And one of the things that I found was so powerful, and if you haven't done it, undergo uh a personality assessment to give you some objective feedback on how you're really wired and often how your behavior impacts others, and the 360. And I can tell you at the end of this very intensive program, I often had these rough, cussing, tough construction leaders sitting across the table from me in tears, bawling like babies, because of the feedback they had gotten, and the realization all of a sudden that the issues they were having at home with a spouse or children in their relationships were the same issues they were having at work because it it had to do with them, had to do with them needing to change, not everybody else. So, how how do I hold up that mirror?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so so what do you how do you hold up that mirror? You go and you ask um, you know, your right hand person, your spouse, your your kid, like what do you what's the right way to start that conversation?
SPEAKER_02I think it is. It is the simplest and right way is simply to ask, how am I doing? And of course, we have to mean it. We really, we have to want to know, right? And we have to be willing to accept what we hear and not defend ourselves. So it starts with the attitude that uh I'm going to receive the gift of feedback and see feedback as a gift, and then not again fall into the pride trap or the shame, uh, etc., that causes me to then to want to rationalize or defend myself. But but yeah, ask. And I would say, secondly, from a faith point of view, one of the things that we struggle with, and I'll confess it's something I struggle with in my own journey, was really sitting before God and seeking to listen to him and hear his voice. As an activist, as an action person, as a doer, and out of the Protestant tradition, my devotions, my time with God became a task. I would check off the list, studying a passage, uh, reading a passage, memorizing a passage, preparing it to share with somebody else, but not sitting quiet and really learning to be silent and be quiet long enough to hear God's voice from the point of view of the spiritual discipline, if you will, of solitude. And really letting him speak to us, because I think that's what the Holy Spirit does. It convicts us, he convicts us of where we're not being honest with ourselves or honest with him.
SPEAKER_01You're muted, Darren. Sorry.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for that. Um trying to make sure my chair is not making noise here as I'm as I'm rocking, trying to stay moving here. Um the best place for people to get connected with the center is at pba.edu. And I I know they have to kind of drill down to find it. Is there a faster way to get there?
SPEAKER_02Well, it would be pba.edu slash C B L.
SPEAKER_03There you go. That's short and sweet. PBA.edu slash CBL, and people can learn about what the Center for Biblical Leadership is doing. They're at Palm Beach Atlantic University. Anything else you want to say about how people can get involved?
SPEAKER_02Well, they could pray for us as we continue this journey. And if they're involved in any effort that includes integrating their faith with the scriptures, their spiritual journey and leadership best practices, we certainly want to engage, collaborate, and even partner. Uh, because that's that's what we're looking for, our groups to to support and partner and collaborate with.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Well, Sam, thank you for coming on the show today and and sharing this wisdom and and reminding us to really go to the Lord and hold the mirror up to his word to so that we can see what we actually look like. And he's given us uh peep other people around us to help um speak through, to reveal if maybe we're not doing so well at listening or we're not doing so well at offering um, you know, affirmation to the people around us in all the different things, areas where we we struggle as leaders. So this has been uh uh a really encouraging and challenging um uh teaching for me today. So we appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02Well, you're welcome. It's a pleasure to be with you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.