Welcome back to the Christianity of Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Warwick Fairfax. Warw is the founder of Crucible Leadership, a philosophical and practical breakthrough in turning business and personal failures into the fuel for igniting life of significance. I love that. You really worked hard on that statement, didn't you, Warwick?
SPEAKER_02I did have help.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I like that. He has been hailed by Forbes as offering compelling insights for anyone who would like to wake up feeling inspired by their work, but doesn't. Insights rooted not in a checklist of glib to-dos, but in his own experience at the epicenter of one of the most spectacular business failures in the history of his home nation of Australia, which you're going to hear at least some about during this chat. He shares insights from his experience and interviews other leaders who have leveraged their crucible moments to live and lead with significance on the podcast Beyond the Crucible. And highly educated from some very prestigious university. He holds an undergrad degree in philosophy, politics, and economics from Oxford University and earned his MBA from Harvard Business School. And he's also an international coach federation certified executive coach. Crucible Leadership.com is the website. Warwick, welcome to the show. Thanks, Darren.
SPEAKER_02Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for coming on. Warwick, what led you to start Crucible Leadership?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, that's an interesting question. Um, I suppose the backstory just for listeners, um, you know, I grew up in a sort of crucible experience. I grew up in a 150-year-old family media business in uh Sydney, Australia. Um it had at one point the equivalent, uh the U.S. equivalent of the New York Times, uh, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, at TV, radio stations, magazines. It was an enormous company, very influential in Australia. And what's interesting for listeners, it was founded by, to me, a stronger uh business person for Christ as I've ever come across. John Fairfax, 150 years ago, he um was an elder of his church, uh, you know, great husband, great dad, his employees loved him. And he was very, he, you know, founded a successful company, was involved in launching all sorts of charities. Uh so really, you know, he's somebody that I've admired and to have that kind of heritage. That faith lasted generations in my family. Eventually, more power, more money does tend to erode faith. Um so by the time I grew up, my dad was a great guy, but had a bit more ecumenical beliefs than I do, which is more traditional evangelical. Uh, from my perspective, my faith is more in line with the founder, if you will. But um, yeah, so where kind of my crucible journey started was um there were a lot of expectations from my parents that I go in the family business. My dad, because I was from his third marriage, my dad died in early 87. I was fresh out of Harvard Business School, age 26. And I felt like the company wasn't being run well, was a bit sensational, not run along the ideals of the founder. I didn't mean it doesn't need to say Jesus lives on the front page, but just needs to be run along, you know, uh expose uh good, values, biblical principles, I suppose, at least below the waterline. Like what was what was missing? You know, I think a lot of papers can they can get very sensational, just enjoy tearing people down just for the sake of it. And I don't mind holding people accountable, but um holding them accountable, but you know, a little less, and this may not be accurate, but just my perception, a little less sensationalism, a little more balance. Uh so uh in 87, with all of that happening, my dad having died, I launched this two billion plus takeover. Uh and yes, I was able to change management. Other family members sold out. October 87 stock market crash at our asset sales. Three years later, by the end of 1990, the company uh went bankrupt. And so here I was trying to make the company safe from other people taking it over, bring it back to the ideals of the founder, see it be well managed. And what I did directly uh contributed to um the company falling out of family control. So that was pretty uh pretty devastating. So kind of um what how that led to Crucible leadership is those years in the 1990s were pretty were pretty tough. You know, probably obviously as a believer, you never want to feel like you're um causing friction. I definitely caused friction with other family. Yes, some of them had sort of thrown my dad out as chairman 11 years before 1976, but still I felt like, you know, how could, you know, I felt like what I was doing was right, but uh it seemed like it caused a lot of friction. Ended 150 years of family control. And in, you know, I came to faith in Christ at an evangelical Anglican church at Oxford. So in my youth and naivety, I thought, well, I know what God's plan is. The company was founded by a believer, so surely he would want me as a believer to, you know, maybe be in charge or have a leading position and somehow bring it back to his values and perspective. So when that didn't succeed, I felt like God had a plan and I blew it. And that might have been poor theology, because if God wants something to happen, it will happen. But when you're at that age going through that, I wasn't thinking of that. I was just thinking God had a plan and I blew it, which is absolutely soul-crushing.
SPEAKER_01Why do you feel like you're the one who blew it?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a good question. I mean, it's probably not that simple because there'd been friction in the family for decades. Um, yes, I got poor advice and all, and I certainly contributed. Launching the takeover certainly didn't help matters and causing friction. So it was not a good idea.
SPEAKER_01When you say launching the takeover, what do you what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Well, in 87, when I launched this $2 billion takeover, if I hadn't done that, maybe things would have kept on, maybe it wouldn't have fallen out of family control. Uh, you know, but by once I did that, with the debt being so large, then company filed for bankruptcy and other people, you know, took control after, you know, uh after bankruptcy.
SPEAKER_01So you mean you started selling selling shares of the company to that and and those um those investors started to take over the comp like how how did that actually work?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, no. I mean, it was me single-handedly after the takeover. I and my mother, but pretty much me, I was like you you just bought out the whole company. Yeah, the whole thing. I was in control. Okay. It was it was my deal at that point, uh, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01But um so the so the fan but the family owned all of it, right? But you bought out the rest of your family.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but the family owned 50% and the rest was publicly traded. So I bought out the rest of the publicly traded shares and the rest of my family. I mean, I'd want to get enough I'd wanted to get enough shares to get control, but understandably they didn't want to be in a company controlled by a 26-year-old. Uh so and you know, who would? One of many poor assumptions I made. So yeah, that's kind of how it so yeah, I mean, it w objectively it there are other factors that came in, but it was largely my fault that the company fell out of family control.
SPEAKER_01But a lot of it's me, the the reason why you wanted to do that is because it looked uh from your vantage point that it wasn't being run on the values of the of the founder and the Yeah. I mean that that was my just it it did you feel like it it wasn't well, you were a very strong Christian at the time. Uh-huh. And yeah, and so it just wasn't in sync with your well, you're and I felt like it wasn't being run well.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I brought in a new chief executive, ironically, also was a believer, and he increased operating profits 80% the first year. Now, there was so much debt and interest that it almost didn't matter what he did. But I think that from my perspective showed that the company uh could be better run once we brought in new management. So I think that was a data point, but there was so much debt that um, you know, it was really uh it was really too much. But um, yeah, that was my perception, and other people may think differently in Australia, but um, I think I was well-meaning, um, but naive, foolish, made some silly mistakes. It might have been better to wait and persuade people quietly rather than go in all guns blazing, so to speak. That's not always the best strategy, you know, to be the kind of the crusader and here I go on my sacred cause. I mean, there's a time and a place, but that's not always the best strategy, you know.
SPEAKER_01At what point did the company become half publicly traded?
SPEAKER_02Well, um, yeah, I mean, it the company became uh a public company in like the 1950s or so. Uh so it had been publicly traded for uh quite a few years. Uh but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is that when it started to because is from what I understand about Chick-fil-A, the reason why True Cathy just made a a covenant with his um descendants, do not take this company public is because your your values can so easily be brushed aside by whoever has ownership stake in the company. Is that kind of what happened?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean to a degree, uh I just yeah, I mean, uh you just have journalists and editors, they have a certain perspective and uh they tend to want to uh, you know, pull people down a bit. Um it's it's just sort of modern newspapers are a certain way, so it's it's it's a hard thing. I mean, one of the funny anomalies was around Easter and Christmas, there was an editorial about, you know, obviously the birth of Jesus or the death of Jesus. And somehow, because of tradition, they would always find some evangelical pastor. And the editorials at Christmas and Easter were about as good and a biblically basis as you could ever find. Because it was strange, because it's not like the editors would believe it, but they uh newspapers believe in tradition. So it's like, well, we've always had pastor so-and-so do it, so we'll bring them in and he'll do his thing. And it was a strange thing. So there were still vestiges of that uh faith, even if it was just in the editorial at Christmas and East. But I always wondered how in the world they kept doing that. But I don't know, they just kind of did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and so, I mean, how how fast did things start to go downhill once you took the company over?
SPEAKER_02Well, pretty much immediately because once the family sold out, the debt was unsustainable. So it would have needed everything to go perfectly. And then so once Australia got in the recession, newspapers are very cyclical, uh, you know, very sensitive to the economy. So yeah, I mean, you know, we uh for three years we did numerous refinancings, but pretty much once they did the takeover, success would have been extremely difficult. You know, sustainability would have been very, very tough. So yeah, it was it was not the it was not a smart move to do the takeovers. Probably would have been other strategies. I don't know if they would have worked, but this probably wasn't the best.
SPEAKER_01Did it go to zero because of the debt? Or or or how what happened? The you mean uh the the the value of the the value of the company.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, with the debt, obviously it was privately held at that point. So um uh so um yeah, I mean it wouldn't have been listed on the stock market, but then once it went under, then yes, you know, the shares were worthless at that point, and then you know, sold others, and the company continues to this day, but not in family control.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so you're you're coming fresh out of business school. You've been studying, um you probably studied similar case studies in business school and and um have a lot of high aspirations for, I mean, you've got a lot of boldness to to take over the entire company and have everything riding on yourself, and then everything comes crashing down. What what happened? I mean, there's a lot of people in a crisis right now because of COVID. A lot of companies are have gone under. I just saw something like over half of the restaurants in New York City won't come back into business. Um, but we're talking about a $2 billion company that just I'm I mean, as as a result of this takeover, um, what's going on with your Christian faith in that season?
SPEAKER_02I mean, during that time, yeah, um, it was tough. I mean, uh, I met my wife towards the end of that time, but I was living with a few guys who were believers. And um, yeah, I was pretty much on my knees praying. I was journaling. Um, yeah, it was an excruciating uh crucible. Um, I was in the newspapers on TV all the time. Um, I had editorial cartoons made of me. And, you know, you never want an editorial cartoon made of you because they're never favorable. There was one of the ones that said, you know, how do you start a small business? Give Warwick Fairfax a big one. You know, I mean, they were they were pretty tough. So yeah, it was it was tough. Uh, but um, yeah, I mean, um I didn't go through any sort of feelings like that and God or anything because, you know, I mean, any mistakes that were made, that that was kind of mine, you know, we have free will, but it was just um, I definitely land heavily on him at that time, and as I still to this day, but yeah, when you're going through that kind of thing, you know, you're on your knees more and you're praying hard and you know, reading scripture, and I did all of that. So uh yeah, I think over time that definitely ended up sustaining me. And certainly in the years afterwards, uh, as I was mentioning, you know, the single biggest thing that helped me come back from that is just the fact that God loves us unconditionally. Uh the fact that he doesn't um he kind of doesn't need uh he doesn't need our stuff. I mean, obviously as believers, he gives us works of service, but it's not like our salvation is earned by works, it's earned by takeover of Fairfax media. So I knew that intellectually, and I just in the 90s just left heavily on that. Uh it's funny, there's a scripture that um certainly there's there's been a few that are really focused on. Uh, but certainly one was first John 2.17. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. It's kind of like don't focus on the world's desires. Um, just you know, be close to the Lord and just focus on his will and uh don't worry about all the alluring things of the world that's just meaningless, it's like dust. So there were definitely some key scriptures that I land on and as part of my journey back, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So what are some of the other takeaways that you because now you're doing a lot of consulting with other business owners, what are you teaching them from a biblical standpoint in light of what you've been through?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, um, you know, with crucible leadership, I felt called to talk about eternal biblical principles in a way that um it would draw all people in. I'm very clear about my Christian faith. Um, but I think there's there's some key things we talk about in crucible leadership that uh a mistake, a failure, a setback, you know, the worst day of your life or worst mistake of your life doesn't have to define you. You know, we our self-worth shouldn't be in what we do. As believers, that's very clear. You know, we're called to uh, you know, we're not saved by works, we're saved by grace. But I think the message I give seems to attract a broader audience because sadly today, people aren't necessarily uh believe in religion or church, but the vast majority of people will say, oh, they're spiritual. So they're open to spiritual conversations. There's absolutely a bridge, as we as believers can talk about that and give the opportunity to start a conversation, and uh, which is kind of what I do in a sense with crucible leadership. So um, you know, we talk about when you go through a failure or setback can be your fault or not your fault. On our podcast, Beyond the Crucible, we've interviewed everybody from uh a Navy SEAL that was paralyzed in a training accident to victims of abuse, abandoned orphans, uh, people who've lost businesses. And the thread through all of them is people who they they have a choice. You know, you go through that experience, you can't necessarily change the physical consequences like that. Navy SEAL only had limited mobility. But in his case, he was able to use what he went through and now heads up a clinic for veterans in San Diego that has some of the latest technology to help uh vets get as much movement as they can, more than they get in a regular VA hospital, as good as they are. So sort of using pain for a purpose. So that's kind of when you go through uh a crisis, whether it's your fault or not, you have a choice. You can either say this was awful, this was unfair, this was my fault, but uh it's trying to understand how, as we say, how can we live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others? Believers might say how to live a kingdom life, you know, a life in a sort of a redemptive life, uh, try to bring some uh form of redemption uh on this earth before obviously the ultimate redemption when Jesus comes again. So, how can you be part of, in a sense, God's grand plan of salvation, his redemption would be a biblical way of looking at it. So that's kind of what we uh what we talk about, how to live in the light of your design, how to follow a calling that you feel from a believer's standpoint is one that God is calling you to from a broader point, one that lives a life's significance. So we kind of bridge that gap. We talk about eternal principles uh in a way that people can uh understand and are drawn in. And my attitude is let the Lord do that uh what he wants to. I'm clear about my faith, uh, both in the book that'll come out next year and on podcasts. Every single secular podcast I'm on, if people ask me how to do bounce back, first question, I always say, well, from my faith's perspective, God loves us unconditionally and loves me unconditionally. And the fact that that fact doesn't need my stuff or Fairfax Media, it was still hard, but that was the anchor of how I clawed my sort of self-esteem and self-worth back. I always give that answer. And I'm just answering the question honestly. So yeah. So that's kind of what I do with crucible leadership, and um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Is there uh an example that you would give of one maybe one of your clients, somebody that you've worked with in business where your story was an encouragement to them and you helped them to think uh turn turn their pain into purpose, you know, turn their crisis into purpose?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, interesting question. Um I mean, I do more uh uh writing uh than coaching uh at the moment, but um I think what I'm in in what I'm inspired by is how people bounce back from uh from adversity in in all in all uh all walks of life. Um and so in what we do is you know more than just uh business people. Um but you know, I think whether irrespective of the crucible, uh I think it's possible to to bounce back and live lives of um of of significance. Um so um Yeah, I mean, I'm just uh trying to think. I mean, yeah, we've just we've just had conversations with a lot of inspiring stories. It's not all, you know, business failure, but um you know, business folks will go through business failures, they'll go through personal challenges, you know, divorce, all sorts of things will happen. And so the question is, you know, how how do you how do you bounce back from that? How do you find how do you find hope? You know, part of it is um which it's funny, business people often don't think about this. We talk about forgiveness. I say, Well, what's that got to do with business people? Well, often I think um when you go through a crucible, certainly part of it's your fault, you gotta forgive yourself. It's easy to say God loves us unconditionally and forgives us. Yes, there's contrition, there's atoning. But just really believing that is part of it, forgiving others. Even when they may have done things that are so called unforgivable. You know, when you don't forgive others, you put yourself in your own prison in a sense. They often don't care. So forgiveness is a huge part, you're for forgiving else, forgiving others without condoning. Obviously, wrong behavior, that's key. And there are certain key elements to people who bounce back, whether it's business failure or personal tragedy, there are some commonalities, if not, of of forgiving, forgiving yourself, finding purpose in the pain, living lives of significance. There's every story, whether it's business or personal, they all have that in common. Every person. There's some common traits.
SPEAKER_01What would you have gone back to tell your 26-year-old self now at this stage?
SPEAKER_02You know, um there's a number of things I could have said. I mean, as a coach, I would ask myself some questions. I don't know if I would have listened. I can be pretty stubborn. I'm not that confident, to be honest. Sometimes you've got to go through tragedy. Like you say, sometimes you need to be hit with a tube before to actually wake up. It's just we're very stubborn human beings, you know. Um so uh I probably would have asked my 26-year-old self, is this your vision or your dad's vision or the founder's vision? Nothing wrong with having a media company, newspaper company that tries to, you know, uplift a country and uh do good and stand for what's right. That's not a bad vision. It can be a good vision, but it may not be your vision, you know? Uh so uh Did you feel like it wasn't really your vision? No. I I didn't think about it at the time. I thought, well, it's irrelevant. It's like duty on a country, as they say in the military here. It's my duty to go into it. How could I how could I disappoint my dad and the founder? I'm a believer, the founder was a believer. It must be God's plan. How can I ignore that? It's all irrelevant.
SPEAKER_01Was there something else that you really wanted to do as a 26-year-old other than go take over this company? Or that just I mean, because you've got your duty, and sometimes there's maybe another dream that people put on hold, or was that it for you?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, I I didn't even think about it because it was not a relevant question, you know. Um I it just didn't, it just didn't even occur to me. So yeah, I mean, I would have asked myself, is this your vision or your parents or the founders? Uh do you feel like you have the design to be a take charge Rupert Murdoch kind of chief executive? The honest answer would be no, I'm a reflective advisor. I don't like being in charge of hundreds or thousands of people. That's just not my wiring. I'm not, you know, a manager per se.
SPEAKER_01Did you know that going into it?
SPEAKER_02And you just said No, no, I I thought I thought, yeah, I'd like to be a manager because I wanted to care for people. But I didn't think about the fact, well, it's great to care for people, but there are other ways. And no, it wasn't my vision, and I didn't have the skills to do it. So it was a terrible fit. And I'm basically a reserved person back then, somewhat shy. So to be in the limelight, I hated that. So it was it was a terrible fit for me on so many levels, but it's tough. You know, I had older folks who believers who said, we've been praying that God had raised somebody up in the heart of the media in Australia. You know, Warwick, you're an answer to prayer. What do you do with that? You know, that's pretty heavy stuff. I mean, they were well-meaning, but you know, they might have been praying, but maybe I wasn't really some prophet that God was bringing forward. Maybe that wasn't really his plan. I don't think he'd I believe that God doesn't make mistakes. You know, Psalm 139 were beautifully and wonderfully made. So if he'd wanted to be in there, I don't know, he would have given me a vision, he would have designed me differently, but yeah, again, I don't think God makes mistakes. So I was a terrible fit. Therefore, it's hard for me to see in hindsight that that was really what God wanted me to do. So um, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things I would have asked myself about vision and design. I just, it would have been hard for me just to abandon that because I would have felt like I'm abandoning my duty. And I'm pretty skeptical that I would have listened, to be honest. You know, we'll never know. But I'm not that confident that I would have.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What else would you have told your 26-year-old self?
SPEAKER_02I would say that um, you know, our self-worth should be only in Christ. It shouldn't be in Fairfax media. It shouldn't be, I shouldn't see who I was as part of what I did and part of this incredible legacy. It wasn't, it was a wonderful legacy, a legacy of service at the community. And John Fairfax, the founder, it wasn't like this was all bad. It was good. I mean, for decades, my family, you know, really they became successful by doing good in large part. So, as wonderful as all that was, it's um you you don't want to have your self-worth wrapped up in what you do or even your family or your heritage. Our self-worth should only be in Christ. And that's easy to say. Um, but clearly some of my value was wrapped up in that because when it went under, it's like, well, now who I am, who am I? I mean, that was just yeah, so that's probably another big one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, wow. That's so good. Well, uh, Warwick, as we wrap it up here, there was a question that your publicist, a good friend of mine, uh, he suggested I ask you. In fact, he said, you ought to ask that of everyone you interview. He thought it was so good. I think it's a great question as well. Gary Schneeberger, he asks, what's the one scripture every leader should have hanging on his office or taped to the computer on his or her desk?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, I guess I gave the reveal earlier, but uh it's that what 1 John 2.17. The world's desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. That's basically comes back to what we were talking about is don't worry about the world's values or some cause or mission out there. Just um worry about what you know, what the Lord wants of you. He might have you go on some big mission in the world's eyes, or it could be just something small in your neighborhood, or I don't think God runs around saying, okay, so-and-so is on my A team because they're missionary in Asia or Africa or Europe. And yeah, you know, this other person, he just works a regular nine to five job in construction or accounting, and he's on my C team because he's not really doing it for the Lord. I mean, I just s so don't think that that's the way God thinks about it. It's, you know, he all has a plan for each of our lives, and each of that has, in some ways that I don't pretend to understand, equal value to him. We all have a different path, and we should honor that path and not feel any better or worse about ourselves. Or do even believers do the comparison game, oh, you know, I'm not a missionary, therefore, or I don't have any value. Well, really? I mean, you know, missionaries don't believe that, you know, about those of us who who are not quote unquote on mission in some far-flying place. They don't look at it that way. They don't think they're better than regular folks in church. So just, you know, keep your sense of self-worth separate from um uh separate from what you do, even if it's a a wonderful mission. Even, you know, even in missions, if you're not careful, you can get caught up in saying, I'm pretty hard stuff, aren't I? I'm on the front lines of Jesus. I'm pretty cool. It's insidious, you know, the the enemy is clever. So you just gotta realize it's all Lord, I'm not better or worse than anybody else. Just live the life that God has for me.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Well said. First John 2, 17. I love that. Crucible Leadership.com is the website. Uh, work, anything else you want to say about how people can get in contact, get get follow what you're doing, get a hold of some of your content. And you've got a book coming out next year. So people, I'm sure, want to get on your email list.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So the main way is crucible leadership.com. Uh, we send out blogs a couple times a month. Uh, the podcast is Beyond the Crucible, which you can find on pretty much every um podcast app, active on social media, LinkedIn, and Facebook. And yes, the book Crucible Leadership will be coming out next year. That you'll hear more of my story as well as examples of uh leaders from history, inspirational and biblical leaders that's in there too. Um, so that will be kind of fun. So, yeah, crystalleadership.com is sort of the main way to find out uh stuff about me and crucible leadership.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful. Warwick, thank you so much for your time for uh being willing to be vulnerable uh with your story. Uh, I know you've gone over and over that so many times, um, but it's encouraging to see just how uh the Lord has sharpened you through uh this this journey uh so that you can go and help other people as as we're going through our own crucible. And I know so many are going through that right now in the middle of this pandemic. So we we sure appreciate you. Well, thanks so much, Darren, for having me in.
SPEAKER_02It was wonderful to be here.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.