Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dave Buring. Dave is the founder and president of the Lion Share Leadership Group, a nonprofit organization aimed at igniting and equipping leaders to fulfill Jesus' great commission of making disciple makers. He's the author of several books, including A Discipleship Journey and the forthcoming book, The Great Opportunity: Making Disciples of Jesus in Every Vocation, which, if you go to Lionshare.org, you can get an early copy of that book, which is uh gonna be available here in the next month from the time of this recording. So if if you're in October or later when you're hearing this, go on over to lionshare.org. They won't officially release until March, but you can get that advanced copy at Lionshare.org. And Dave can also be heard regularly on Lion Share's podcast, Wisdom Unlocked, The Ways of God. Dave, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Darren. It's really good to be with you.
SPEAKER_03So this is uh as we've uh discussed, and we actually just uh made the connection that we're both uh alumni of Regent University. And um, and so we got a lot of good, good uh teaching there about discipleship, but this really began a lot earlier for you coming up in uh in YWAN. Why don't you tell us about how you became so passionate about disciple making?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so first of all, uh I grew up in a home where my mom was the 4:30 in the morning intercessor. She'd get up and pray for the nations and the family. And and dad, when he was about 39 years of age as a business guy, felt like he was to leave business for a while and go back to Bible school because he was so hungry to know the Lord. So in the early 70s, my family moved from the West Coast uh San Diego area back to Minnesota where dad could go to Bible college. Uh, following my high school years, uh, as you said, I jumped into Youth with a Mission, thought it was going to be a year, then was going to go back to the University of Minnesota into journalism, and it ended up being a seven-year stint instead. And during that time, I had the privilege of being invested in by uh a man by the name of Lauren Cunningham. Lauren's the founder of Youth of the Mission. And at one point when I was traveling with him, Darren, there was there was one of those uh moments as a 20-year-old that marked me. Uh, we were on a plane, and uh he, you know, he asked me, What do you think your gifts are? You know, and at 20, you know, what do you know? And I just was telling him what I thought they were, and and he made this statement that kind of ruined me for the ordinary. And he said this he said, Dave, it doesn't matter how big the groups are that you will lead or the size of the audiences that you teach. The way that God will measure the fruitfulness of your life is have you invested to the third and fourth generation. And he quoted to me 2 Timothy 2,2, that talks about Paul, first generation, to Timothy, second, faithful ones third, others fourth. And ever since that time, Darren, for me, it's been how do I disciple four generations deep?
SPEAKER_03Wow. And so you are with this new book, you're really honing in on the importance of discipleship in a vocational context. And this term uh vocational disciple making, what is that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a new term. And I think when people are hearing that, there's a little bit of huh, because it's a whole new connect. But, you know, um, as you and I were talking a little earlier, disciple making is still Jesus' original plan to change the world. And as you probably say as well, Darren, it's not the great suggestion, it's the great commission. And the idea is I I love the word commission because I like to intercept it a little bit and put a CO-mission. It's meant to co-mission with Jesus. And and one of the things that I've watched over the years and have had the privilege of doing is walking alongside leaders in society who sincerely love Jesus, but they will look at me and say, like, how am I supposed to know what God wants me to do? They they haven't either been grounded in scriptures, nobody's ever taught them how do I hear God's voice? Like, how do I know when it's the Lord leading me? You know? Um, and so we talk about those kinds of things. And so whether it's someone that's serving in education or media or sports, whatever area of society or vocation they're in, I believe that a significant way to change the world is to have followers of Jesus walking in God's ways, reflecting his character, not only as they live, which is the starting point, but as they lead. And so um, so the book is really kind of a there's lots of stories in it of people that we've walked with, but it tries to envision and equip people to think differently in that regard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And you, I I read a kind of a little uh snippet of the book that was shared because I haven't seen the entire book, but um, but despite that this is not the great suggestion, it is the great commission. Um, and and you quoted this research from Barno where when asked what a question a Christian's responsibility in the workplace is, the deliberate expression of disciple making did not even make the list. So there were a lot of good things on there, like you know, do excellent work um for the glory of God, which you know, we hear a lot of that in the marketplace Christianity movement to you know, where your work is worship and demonstrate morality and act ethically and uh serve others, 79% said, and uh share the gospel was 44%. So at least, you know, evangelism kind of made yeah list. But why is disciple making not even in the vocabulary here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just think it's uh, and and I know this will sound um appropriate for what we're talking about, but I think the lack of discipleship is catching up to us. And as a country, we've been more committed to Bible studies than discipleship. And when I say that, I'm not lowering the Bible or Bible studies at all. I'm just trying to raise the banner of disciple making. I have found over the years that as we're helping churches with disciple making, they often get stuck because they want to relegate everything to just a study of the Bible where there's no heart application. So, Darren, one of the ways we try to remedy that is uh in the methodology that we use with our tool called the discipleship journey, is we ask two questions. And the way we do it is someone watches a video on their phone or tablet for 15 minutes, and there's about a 45-minute to an hour journey with their Bible and our content that they're in uh on their own. Then they get together with their small group, and the two questions that are asked are this so what did the Lord reveal to you? Like, in other words, what did you see? And secondly, how are you going to obey that in your life? And so the real focus is not information, but really is transformation of the heart. And so, you know, regardless of what tool you're using, that methodology uh repeated over a period of a year every week causes there to be real life transformation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But but why do you think that the term disciple making is it it just doesn't really enter? I mean, on the shows that on this show and and other shows that I'm involved with, we certainly talk about disciple making, but it it doesn't really enter the conversation often in even when we're talking about living out your faith in the workplace. I mean, what why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I let me let me tell you about I'm a part of an organization, it's kind of a network called discipleship.org. It's actually something I'd like to tell you more about because I think you're you have a role in it. Um, but it's a it's a network of some of the top disciple-making organizations in the country. When we first pulled together about five or six years ago now, there were 10 of us, and the guy that was hosting it had uh asked us to come prepared to answer this question. What do you think the greatest hindrance is to disciple making in the United States? So we get together, we have our meetings, and at some point he pulls out the big, you know, three by two sticky pad and starts saying, okay, guys, let's write this stuff down. So, you know, the first guy, Bill Hull, real well-known disciple maker guy, probably the most prolific writer on disciple making alive right now, Bill, who's in his 70s, he said, I think it's because we're trying to disciple people in our churches who aren't even Christians yet. So, in other words, he's saying, So the truth is not even sticking, you know? And and it went from there all over the place. Well, when we were done, the 10 of us sharing, uh, Bobby, who was hosting, said, Now, what I want you to do is not pick your own answer, but I'm looking for a consensus. Like, what are we together saying? And here's here's what it was: the number one hindrance to disciple making in our country is senior pastors. Not one person said that critically, and many of us in the room, including myself, have served in that role. But we know all too well that from Bible school to Semine, there is no disciple-making 101 course. There is no practice of it. And so, therefore, most of our dear, dear, precious, committed, sacrificial pastors, they've never been discipled. So they reduce everything to the education department. And there's they don't know how. So I will be talking with the senior pastor, and I can see kind of when it's coming over him that he realizes I don't, I have never, and they'll say, I've never had this, so I don't know how to do it. It's like, okay, would you let me help you? Yeah, man, I don't know how to do this stuff. And I and I think because of that, and again, Darren, I say that um that's the reality of it, that 80 to 90 percent of senior pastors have never been discipled. We should never hold that against them. It's the same thing for all of us. Right. But the reality is that's part of the root of it, so it's not a part of our church life. And when you look at the book of Acts, one of the things that I see in Acts is that it in the dynamic here is Jesus asks us to go make disciples, not to plant churches, not to change culture, not even to really to win converts. But here's the thing I've noticed when you start with making disciples, you get tons of converts. Churches are planted and culture will be changed. I'm 61, Darren, and I've lived long enough now to hear so many people about talking about we got to change culture. But if I'm really honest, I would say it's gone backwards. We haven't gained ground. And in my opinion, is because we haven't obeyed the last command of Jesus to make disciples, we don't have enough godly people that God can strategically place, i.e. Esther and Daniel.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And the scary and disturbing thing for me is that uh people are already being discipled. It's just a matter of what's discipling them, right? Yes. I mean, can you speak to that about how how are people currently being discipled in the marketplace for the purposes of this uh yeah, and I and I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01It's like oftentimes I find, Darren, that heart intentions are really right, they're really good, but there's um uh a thinness of what's being passed on. And of course, we should walk in integrity. Of course, when it comes to the books, we need to be, but there's other pieces to this, like for example, and you may have seen some of this in the taster I sent you on the book, is like, I don't think we realize that our vocations are rooted in the character of God. So business, like God was the original business guy in the sense that he thinks that way. So the way business people, and I love how they think, you give a business person something, and they're like a dog, dog on a bone on it, man. They're gonna ride that thing till it gets done, and gets done well. And well, you know, the Lord has those things within him. And so business is really a reflection of God's character. Yes, of course, he's the shepherd, but he's also the creator. So you have the artist, he's also the builder, you have the person who in business is in construction, you have all these different pieces. And I think um when someone realizes that their calling is just as important and as valuable to the kingdom of God as a pastor, as a missionary, which we oftentimes put on pedestals and say, well, this is a higher calling. No, it's not, it's just our obedience point. And so if God's called you to business, it's just as holy as someone being called to go to the nations.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, wow. Um of the things that you had said earlier um is that I'm trying to remember his last name was Hull, the the author on Bill Hole, Bill Hole, yeah. That that you can't disciple people who aren't basically that aren't born again. Yeah. Um, I'm I'm wondering about that, uh especially as it relates to making disciples in the marketplace, because I mean, you don't always know who's yeah right right away. And so what you and then I'm thinking about Jesus, like at what point were Jesus's disciples born again?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No choice we knew the answer to that one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but like, but I don't think he waited to begin the discipleship process until they had kind of signed on the dotted line, you know, yeah, gone up front and you know like completely sold. I mean, there were there was like a it was a progressive uh obedience, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. And I and I think the way that I look at it, and here's what Bill's context was. Bill was saying if the spirit of God is not in them, it's hard for those truths to stick and become life-transforming.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so, so the dynamic that I look at is, you know, there's is when someone says, is evangelism a part of discipleship, I would say yes, it's the first step, you know, in the sense that at some point there is the turning towards Jesus. And then that with the spirit of God residing in you, it allows the spiritual velcro, if we could say it that way, to really allow the truths to become real. Until that point in time, I think as followers of Jesus, like in the business realm or arts entertainment or government, it's there's a splashing over of our lives that they see. And so this, let's say, for example, in the area of relationships, as a business person, let's say you tend your staff and your team well and your clients and customers, people notice that. And if they're not a Christian, they would in a big way they'll notice, like, wow, you treat people really good. Yeah, that's the principle out of Romans 12 about you know, uh treating one another in honor above the other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, and and so I think there's a lot of splashing over that happens. But I think Bill's point was you can't really move the ball down the field seriously or fully until the inner man is changed and the spirit of God, like Velcro, lets it stick. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03And it and it would certainly be you know virtually impossible to truly become a disciple maker until until you know you have the spirit living inside you, making those those truths sticky. But in terms of that beginning that process of because I I think um one of the things is missing from uh a Sunday morning service is that it's a Sunday morning service, and and that's that's it's uh you know, maybe an hour, maybe if your church is going longer these days, you're maybe an hour and a half service. Yeah, but there's not a whole lot of time to really model a lifestyle, which is really what you need. And yes, people aren't going to say, I want to, like Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like it's it's hard for a pastor to say that to, you know, one to many, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Well, how do you actually live? I don't know. Like I hear what you say on Sunday morning, but I don't know how, but in the marketplace, that's where you can actually see that. You can actually um see if this is the kind of person that you want to imitate, which is why it's and that's why I really believe that everybody's being discipled right now. It's a matter of are you being discipled by Jesus and one of his followers, or are you being discipled by the the way of the world and the world's systems? And and so there's no nobody's neutral in this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're you that's a great observation. And I I find that to be true, and you see that a lot, particularly in our younger ones, where there is a real like maybe more than ever, media is a huge disciple-making expression. And and until we can um, like what what trumps media, what trumps some of these various things, it's relationship. And it's like it's exactly what you're saying, saying, Darren. It's like if like when I preach and teach, and I have the privilege of doing that all over the place, and for me, I always try to build some level of relationships before I go in. Why? Because I just find when I'm teaching and there's a level of relationship there, again, it sticks because I know Dave.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And versus just being a stranger, it doesn't mean God doesn't use us when you're there for the first time. I don't mean that, but what I do mean is reinforcing what you're saying. There's a greater connect that goes on, a spiritual um passing on when there's a level of relationship there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think there's things that like you were talking about the media and how we learn so much from the media. And then like if you're watching a TV show or a movie where there's clearly an agenda behind it, it's not always because they're like preaching at you through the characters, they're just they just put a certain character in there that they might not even say anything, but they're making some whether it's a lifestyle or whatever, is just normal, like it's normal. Like that, hey, of course, somebody that that acts like this, talks like this, that uh has this kind of a lifestyle is part of the um the show because this is real life. Like this is this is normal. Like, yeah, um, and and so if you like, regardless of what the general the the the cross section of the general population is, what the cross-section of demographics in this show, we're gonna make this what we want it to seem normative, right? And and that's how it works in the in the marketplace, because we we observe more lifestyles. We observe how people cheat or don't cheat, or how they treat each other on a regular basis more than the little things that you can pick up in church, like, hey, you know, when when we come into church, there's gonna be a uh time we're gonna stand up and we want everybody to turn around and shake somebody's hand. And and like that, like that kind of thing can become normative, even if people feel like automatons where they're just like shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, you know, like don't actually like talk or engage with anybody. Um, it's just so different in the marketplace, this discipleship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think the the church's role in all this is like the the word I like to use, Darren, is I think the church can be a disciple-making hub. And and the the unique role that I think the church can play in this, it's the only place where you have followers of Jesus representing all these different low vocations end up kind of showing up repeatedly. You know, sometimes we are at a ballgame or we go to school or, you know, whatever, but you know, some 40 to 50 times a year, this same group of people who are called to that particular Christian community show up. And I think if the the way that I often encourage pastors to think about it is look, when you're preaching on Sunday morning, don't just kind of do it through a preaching lens. Be deliberate of how that adds layers to the discipleship that you're creating and in your communities within your church. And and when pastors catch that, I've had one pastor say to me, this has become fun again, because they're actually seeing lives transformed. It's not just about getting up and preaching, the preaching is one method of helping to make disciples. It's not the whole show, it's not the whole enchilada. It's it's a means to an end rather than an end in itself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally agree. So if for somebody that's listening right now and they've heard this term discipleship maybe come up a couple of times at their church, or they they just heard it through the grapevine or whatever, like, but they're wondering, how do I actually be a disciple maker in my workplace? Yeah. What what is your what is what do you how do you counsel that person?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you for asking that. I I have a friend of mine one time, Darren, that said this, he asked me this question. And this is a question I often have people start with because it gets them to think is in whose ears are your words big? So let me say that again. In whose ears are your words big? And I have found over the years that, you know, we all wish there was, you know, our words were big in certain people's ears sometimes, but they're just not. But there are people in our lives. And so if you're a business owner, oftentimes your words are going to be very big in the ears of those that you're, you know, working with and living with in that way. And let's say you're an employee, in whose ears are your words big that you work with? And here's what I mean by that. When you say something, they listen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When when you say something, they do it. When they, you know, when they do it, they see the fruit of it and they come back to you for more. When that's happening, you need to pause and recognize the Lord's giving me favor in this person's life. How do I use that now for God's glory? How do I use that to help them become, you know, a more effective disciple to the point that they can reproduce disciples? And so for me, that's a starting point. Then what I often encourage people to do is I use the word fast or the acronym just because it's mind easy for me. But I look for people who are faithful, available, servant-hearted, and teachable. So let me explain that. So by faithful, I mean the opposite would be flaky. You know, if you say, hey, do you guys want to get, let's say the five of us, do you want to get together every Tuesday morning at 7:30 before we kick into our jobs at nine, we'll meet. And the person says, I'm in. I'm looking for people that are faithful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And one of the things we have to realize, um, Jesus didn't chase down the rich young ruler after he said, sell your possessions and give them to the poor and come follow me. It says that Jesus was saddened because he loved that young man, but he didn't chase him down and say, okay, dude, I'm just kidding, just give a third away, we'll call it good. But we've so lowered the bar of disciple making that it's just it's not even close to what it's supposed to be. So I look for people that are faithful. If they say they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it. I look at people that are available, which to me translates to I'm getting this on my calendar. It's a real thing for me. It's not theory, I'm moving other things out of the way so I can be there. Um, servant-hearted to me means that whatever you get passed on to you, you're gonna be willing to pass that on to others. And then teachable speaks for itself. Like you never like to pour into somebody that just says, Oh, I know that. You know, you want somebody that's open, humble, teachable. And when I find the combination of my words are big in their ears, matched with someone who's at least got three of three of those four, I'm willing to work with them. And so um, when you're looking at that in say your business place, who are those people where your words are big? And then begin to create an opportunity to build first relationship. And then as relationship and trust is built, then say, hey, would you like to go a little bit deeper? So that's kind of some of the process that I encourage people to walk in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So maybe people for for someone who says, Oh, I know somebody just like that, um, what is the next step?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So then what usually I do is so let's just say there's that one person, or maybe they've got three or four. I I've learned probably as you have, Darren, I think disciple making, as far as how many you do, is is kind of more on your wiring. Like my wife, three or four is max for her. Um I've got other friends that say, man, I like one-on-one. I'm more of a maximizer. I like to do 10 or 12 because I'm feeling like if I'm gonna do this for one, let's do this, you know. So I think it's wiring. But um, let's say you got a couple of people, two, three, four people. The next step is once you've identified that, okay, God's giving me favor with them, don't go announce to them that I want to disciple you. Just again, build relationship if you already have it there, just say, hey, um, I've been praying about just hosting something. Again, maybe it's 7:30 in the morning before the work hour, maybe it's an evening, whenever it is. And I'd like to invite you to pray about joining me in this. And I usually am very upfront with people and say, now this is a little bit different, and I'm gonna require greater commitment. And so I'm so if you're gonna be there, I need to know you're gonna be there. And uh then we usually pick out a tool. Uh, we often use our tool, the discipleship journey. It's a it's literally during a one-year walk that covers 12 topics that you kind of marinate in one topic for a month. So it really gets into their lives, relationships, the character of God, hearing God's voice, spiritual warfare, stuff like that. And um, and then we we begin to walk them through that process. I ask for two hours a week. And the way that I'll do it, especially when I'm working with men, is I'll say, Hey, I need 184th of your time. And they'll look at me and go, like, well, what are you talking about? I said, Well, before I tell you, like, how much time do you sleep? And they do the math at about a third or fourth, okay. How much time do you work? Uh, maybe a fifth or so, okay. How about watching TV? I don't want to tell you, you know, and we kid about it. I said, I just need one eighty-fourth. So then they finally say, Well, what are you asking for? I said, I'm asking for an hour on your own that you're gonna take your Bible and use our tool to go deeper. And then a second hour in the week, I'm just gonna ask you to gather with three or four or five, or however many, and we're gonna gather together for an hour and we're gonna talk about how this stuff actually applies to our families, our relationship, our business, all the facets of our lives, so that a year from now, there's genuine transformation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And do you have uh maybe a testimonial of somebody that went through this process and when they went back into their workplace specifically, things were just different?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So let me tell you the story of um, I don't know if you're familiar with this name or not. She's a Grammy Award-winning artist. Her name is Mandisa.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And Mandisa, I've been her pastor for about oh, 15 years now. So walked with her through American Idol, and she's come out the back end of that, where we've poured into her, discipled her, and now she has in her workplace, which is Arts Entertainment, she's got a group that she calls her sisters, which is young 20-somethings, mid-20-somethings emerging artists that most people are not familiar with yet, that she's pouring into them the very same thing. So one day I hadn't met them yet. I said, When am I going to get to meet my granddaughters in the Lord? And so, so recognizing, you know, the daughter relationship there, the granddaughter relationship there. And so it it works. There, it doesn't mean it's easy, and you know that, Darren, it's not easy. There's a lot of obstacles. And um, I think the enemy of our soul knows that this is so much what Jesus did that he does everything he can to keep us from doing it. And we get our fingers involved in so many other things. But until we get back to this, like looking at our country where it is right now, um we we don't have leaders that have been discipled around God's character, meaning they look more like him uh along his ways of how he actually does things. And so to watch young artists now, because in the artist world, whenever you're you can be promoted, you know, uh and marketed, it's just they jump into everything and anything. And instead, what we'll teach them is look, this platform you have is not a stage. The world has a stage because it's all about me. If you're a follower of Jesus, it's a platform that God has given you to display Himself through your music and through your life. And so now that other art she's discipling other artists to think that way, as I've discipled her to think that way. And so you see that transform. So whether it's in business or done that in government or in media, the ramifications of a life well lived before the Lord, influencing others, let that effect happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, she's she certainly has lived it out. And that's exciting to hear that you were kind of behind the scenes in her journey. And um, and thank God for people like yourself that that are willing to go behind the scenes that aren't the ones that are necessarily out uh in in in front on the platform per se, um, but that are advising and and discipling um these um these influencers. And and and that's as Lauren Cunningham said to you long ago, that that's really what's gonna impact the third and fourth generation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, so wow. Well, Dave, what's something that you're working on? Obviously, the book is coming out, and anything else you want to say about that or anything else that you're working on that people can get involved with?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, the the great opportunity. We're excited about that. I I think it's um a unique time right now in history in our country and in the world where we need to go back and look at how do we actually raise up godly leaders to serve in society. And um I think that that hits a hits a good tone where people are right now. One of the other things that's a um kind of a project that we've been chipping away at for several years and probably won't be ready for another year or so, is we're working actually on something that's a discipleship tool for children. And so for kids six to 12 years age to help them, and so we've taken our uh discipleship journey when people use it, they shorten it to A D J, the initials. So we've created two characters, A D and J. And the two of them interact as a brother and sister, adopt like adopted children in animation. And so a child can watch this two to three minute animation, and there's a tool that whether it's a parent or it's their um Sunday school teacher, can actually get them be, you know, build on Bible stories they've had, but actually flesh this stuff out in their life. So that's kind of a project we chip away on. Um we also do something that's called a leadership journey, which is a six-month walk that I do with it's usually a dozen to 15 leaders for a six-month window to help them process some of the things you and I have been talking about. So it becomes a part of their lives, their relationships, and their leadership. So there's uh a lot in our our hands to do right now. We're excited about the the privileges that God's given us to serve.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And lionshare.org is the website. We'll have that in the show notes. Dave, thanks for your time. Thank you for the work you continue to do to uh to really just bring forth this message that Jesus gave us uh so long ago that really should have been right there front and center all along, but that is kind of fallen by the wayside, sadly, of making disciples uh that's that's follow, follow me and I'll make you fishers of men. I mean, it's it's really that that basic. One of those simple but difficult things to do, but maybe not so difficult if we uh start to to really tap into uh his his ways and how he did it. And you've certainly provided a lot of great resources for that. So again, lionshare.org is the website. Dave, we sure appreciate you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Darren. It's good to be with you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity in Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianity and Business.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your book.