Welcome back to the Christianity of Business Podcast, an initiative of the RCW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Aaron McClung. Aaron is the founder and principal of AM, a full service branding, marketing, and technology firm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. For over two decades, AM has served businesses and nonprofits of all sizes, including Carrier Corporation, ATT, Sonic Restaurants, Philip66, the North American Mission Board. So a lot of diversity there from church world to the business world, Goodwill Industries, Toby Mack, an incredible performer. Kaiser Musical Instruments. As a guitar player, I was excited to see anyone who uh is uh familiar with what a capo is knows that Kaiser is the uh uh they're they're the the the ultimate when it comes to capos, as far as I know. Passion Conferences, NFL Hall of Famer, Ray Lewis, and hundreds more. AM was recognized by the SMU Cox School of Business as one of the hundred fastest growing companies in Dallas in 2009. AM's work has also been recognized by the Dallas Society of Visual Communications and the American Advertising Federation of Fort Worth. Aaron, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Aaron. I appreciate you having me on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for coming on. How does your Christian faith impact the work you do in business? I know you had you went to a conference that just kind of rocked your world uh not not too long ago, and it's just really kind of shifted the way you approach your business and how you help your clients.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the agency has been around, AM's been around for uh 21 years now. And so uh for the first 18 years of that, roughly, I was running things the same way and just trying to show up and do a great job for our clients, and and God completely blessed that and took care of us. Um, but the uh I guess about, you know, like I said, three, four years ago, I started to realize that things were changing in the marketplace and um what we what we did to to create a successful company wasn't necessarily gonna be the way that we got to the next wave of it. And so I started to ask questions that I really never asked before of the business because it was I just never had to. So we always had plenty to do. Um we were in the right space, technology doing all kinds of things. There's always a need, right? And so as that started to change, I started to ask questions and I I realized that I just didn't have the answers to them. I didn't know what I was supposed to do next. I didn't even know how to find that out. I didn't know who I needed to talk to, didn't have a lot of mentors. Um, but then I started reading more in business and um studying, and I assumed uh I honestly just completely missed the fact that God actually had the answers to those questions. And so it just wasn't, I just never made my faith that practical into my business. Um, always try to treat our people fairly, and don't get me wrong, we did that and we worked with a lot of ministries, as you can you notice in our list there. Um, however, I just it never got real to me that God had the answers to my questions about the business specifically. And so I I got involved with a business leader's group through my church and um their content, their events, and started learning and understanding that uh God wanted to speak to me, he had a vision for me for my life that I had no, I haven't really tapped into yet. And he had vision for the business and he wanted to run it. And so it was gonna be, I was just like, well, that sounds, I mean, haven't I already done that? Like haven't I kind of committed that to God? But then the deeper I dug into that, I just realized I just wasn't hearing him and wasn't asking specific questions, and I started to do that and get confidence in that. And as that grew and grew and grew, I swear I'm like addicted to it now. I love it. I feel like God's commun communicating to me. Um, and he's guided me to new things and a new vision that I never even thought possible. And so I look forward to kind of sharing more about that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So practically speaking, what what was one of those questions, an example of one of those questions you had about a business issue that you know you just had not thought about it in the way that once God started to do that revolution in your heart uh and and in your your mind and approach to business, you just saw it in a different way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great. So the question was really what's next, right? Like, how do what what am I what does the agency need to do next? Do we need new technology, new services? What is it? And being a my profile has been more of the operator of the business. Like I get way into it and I actually help do the work. Some business leaders are like visionaries and they're like, they've got an idea every second. That's just been my my on the other side, it's been more about practical come in, do the business, let's tweak it, make it better, make it better. But coming up with something out of nothing, I never had really that wasn't really my thing, except for more doing that client work and things like that. But that's the question I started asking God, what do we do next? And he basically um began to unpack the idea that um that my purpose is completely in him, and he's given me exactly what I need to fulfill it in me. I wasn't just yes, I didn't have the visionary profile, but he basically communicated started communicating that he was the visionary that I needed, and that if I just listened, he would start unpacking that for me, and he did. And it we basically have an entirely new uh business model now, different services. Um, we still do the same core kind of agency type type things, but we have a completely different uh angle on it to where we're helping uh businesses and ministries uncover their specific purpose. And so we had to figure out like that's what I got first, was inspire and equip others to fulfill the purpose that I have for them. I'm like, what is that? That was as vague as it sounds like that just sounded like you know, deep thoughts or something like that. But I needed to like make that real and practical, so I kept digging in, and my personality profile is one to turn that into a system and a process that helps people actually do that and bring it into their business to help them be uh inspired and fulfilled in their work they're doing, and then communicate that to their audiences.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so you're really helping these companies and and nonprofits to articulate what their culture is, right? And what what they're how they're being perceived in the marketplace, like what how they want to present themselves in the marketplace? Um I mean, the because that culture is really they're they're marketing more than just products and services. Ultimately, they're marketing a culture. Um But you you also point out kind of the distinction between product focused branding and purpose-focused branding. I'm curious, should business branding be product focused or purpose focused?
SPEAKER_02Um, it should be um you said that's a great question. You can win either way. You can make money either way. Let's put it that way. You can be successful. There's brands that will just talk about, you know, this is the uh let's just take insurance, for example. So we we sell insurance, we sell it to this many so many people, and we focus on doing it at this price, and you're gonna save money. Well, that's a very what focused conversation. It's not about why they do it or why they show up every day or what motivates them. And I'm not asking them to connect with uh a specific um audience or niche or purpose or anything. So take like USAA, right? They're all about serving military families and making, and so they're all their marketing is about we understand what it's like to be uh put your life on the line for your country and serve others and to do to make sacrifices, right? And we understand like what it's what the cost is for your family. We're gonna be there for your family, and we're gonna help you take care of them. That is a completely different message than what I just said about you know, saving 15% on your next phone call, right? So that same product, completely different message, connecting with a completely different customer in a completely different way. One's all about loyalty and long-term relationships, the other is about transactional relationships, and there is no loyalty with that. It's who's ever going to come back with a 16% discount is going to win, right? So it's completely changing uh your conversation with your clients and your audiences, or if it's the nonprofit, same place. So it's it's why do you show up and can I build a tribe around me of patrons, customers, employees that want to show up and do that with me every day? Because if I can get into that part of their heart and their brain and how their God's created them, then they will want to line up and help me achieve that vision with me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I needed it's interesting you pointed out that distinction between uh USAA and and Geico, really, you know, save 15% on your car insurance. I I went into Home Depot the other day because I needed to get a new electric ratchet, and I was gonna get this nice Milwaukee electric ratchet that I saw on Amazon, but I wanted to get it quick because you know, getting it next day prime isn't quick enough these days, right? Um, and so I went in there. The the ratchet was literally almost double uh what it was on Amazon. And you know how they they claim they do the price matching and everything, and they're like, Well, we don't price match against Amazon because Amazon's not our competitor. Interesting, um interesting statement. Because like I literally walked out to the parking lot and bought it on Amazon for like the same exact drill, you know, half the price. But I think there's something to that though. Like I don't know how much you how savvy you are on Home Depot's whole branding, you know, approach and everything. But um it sounds like there's a difference here between the product focused and and the purpose focused in the way that, for example, companies have to keep keep up with Amazon. I'm like, how could you do how can you I I remember hearing that Walmart has uh a big banner on their factory floor that says you can't out Amazon Amazon. Um and so and yet a look at what they're doing is very much like what Amazon is doing actually. But for all the other companies, like you have to have this purpose focus, right? To to be competitive, yeah. Be competitive.
SPEAKER_02So that's that's a question we we typically start asking is like, what do you want to win with? And if you're saying you want long-term customers, you're saying you want them to stick with you, you're saying you want to attract your employees to a mission that they want to show up for and be fulfilled with it's it's in the past that's been like this, you know, thing that we hope we get to one day in our in our businesses. Like we can just you know get to a survival level and then we can start thinking about purpose. I think that was very um maybe Gen X and before. And you're hoping that one day you get to the place where you can create a company that's purpose-minded and cares, actually cares about your individual employees. And so that's fine. But you know, millennial generation and younger is coming out expecting both purpose and profit. They want to make meaningful and uh have money and meaning in their jobs, and so um the competition for just employees is gonna be different. So um the the same people though are buying products, and so the if you see, if you go look around, there's tons of examples of of companies, let's say like a chipotle or somebody like that that's really getting that. Like they food with integrity, and they've even had to stand up when they've had issues behind their integrity. And so, but there's people like saying, I don't care, I want chipotle, I'm in it for life. Like that they they've created this culture around the product because they're not just talking about burritos, they're talking about um all the things that went into that burrito, the the way that they sourced it, the people behind it, um, the healthy results of eating that versus eating something that's more fast food. So they're building a product around this culture, and there's a culture that wants it. And so more and more people are buying based off of uh the product, the story, the brand's story. What am I aligning my life with with this purchase today? And so they want that kind of meaning. And so you can see how that would uh if a Christian business owner or leader recognized that that's how the culture is today and was being a good um missionary to the world, let's say you've got to learn that content and then apply it to your brand from just from a missional standpoint. Um, and so getting it, it's yes, it works from a profitability standpoint and keeping your people and your customers aligned, but it's also um it's just begging for meaning. And so, and as Christian business leaders, we know that that's part of our calling is to deliver that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I noticed in the article that you wrote about product focused and purpose-focused businesses that Chipotle was kind of the shining example of the purpose-focused business, and and and then on the far other extreme of product focus, you had Geico, and then in the middle you had Chick-fil-A. Um, why was Chick-fil-A in the middle instead of more toward uh one or the other?
SPEAKER_02That's a great question. And and when we ask uh people in a room, like, who do you think of as a purpose-driven brand? Almost always Chick-fil-A comes up. And I I I don't argue with that at all. I completely agree that they are. However, in their communication, in their marketing, and what their messaging is, it's usually not has not very little to do with that, right? It's it's chicken and cows and very what focused. And um the they just had, you know, decades worth of time to tell me that story that there's a purpose underlying, where most of our clients in the real world don't have decades to get this message across. So I'm saying, yes, they're a purpose-driven brand, but you wouldn't know it unless you dig in quite a bit into the to the culture, and they've kind of permeated that message over time. Um, whereas me making a decision whether I'm buying this product today that I've never heard of, um, you've got to to put that purpose story up front if you want to uh tie into some of this kind of science that works this way. So that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, because they've got, I mean, if you if you're a big fan of Chick-fil-A, you probably know about Truek Kathy and the dwarf house and and and just the the whole traditional values of being closed on Sunday and all of those kinds of things are are important to you. But for those of us that are maybe just starting companies nowadays, we don't have we don't have time really to share too much backstory because there isn't much backstory if you're just uh starting out in the marketplace. Uh and and so you've gotta you've got to you've gotta build it right and and really bring that that story and that identity to the forefront. Do you think that that organizations can tend to get too focused on their own story? And I I'm thinking about like this whole story brand approach where they're so focused on they could be so focused on themselves as being the hero of the story that they've kind of lost sight of the the customer's part in that story.
SPEAKER_02Um I think that's possible. I think um I'd say most likely uh the balance is probably not that off track like that to me. Like they're not, I don't see a ton of people going too far with that. Um, but it's possible. If you if you took literally and said, Oh, we just need to talk about our our why and and leave it at that, uh, that's not what we're we're suggesting. We're saying you've got to align yours with theirs. Your your why and the customer, the audience, the members, whatever, their why has to, you have to create a brand and create a story that's worth investing in, right? And so um it's it's telling both sides of it, like there's got to be a reason why you started your business. And so the more you understand that, the more we can figure out what's unique about that and what sets you apart from your competitors or your what are the other options? You know, if my dollar goes this way or that way, why should it go with you? Um, and so we we want to help understand why. Let's just take Chipotle, like why did you you know have to have uh you know naturally sourced food products? And so what's driving that? Like, what about what's so great about food with integrity that we've got to understand that so and how it applies to me buying this burrito today? And so, because I've got my own why. Um, and for some reason, uh that buying that burrito today or that that bowl is gonna make me feel good about myself that I bought it from this brand over that other one. And so bringing them both together, I know it's kind of like surface level on a burrito purchase, but at the end of the day, it's it's how I feel about myself at the brand. And people uh buy spend what two or three times the cost of a product like Apple over a Microsoft product, and they do it every day and they don't question it. It's because of how it makes them feel. And so uh Apple has a why. They don't necessarily go crazy with leading with it these days, but back in the day it was all about empowering when Steve Jobs is creating it, it's empowering the individual to challenge a status quo. You see, their early advertising is all about that. We're gonna go into education, we're gonna give teachers and individuals the tools to fight big blue, right? And to change the world. And so that's a passion that drove them for decades. Um and it it basically became a luxury brand on this, you know, ladder half when the iPhone came out. And so um, if you do a heat map on where the you know the most expensive places to live and where the iPhone is most popular, you can see it overlapping. So it started to become a luxury brand. And um it's basically said, I want this type of thing to be aligned with who I am. Like when I go buy this product, I want it to say something about me, subtly or overtly, the whatever it is, people make those decisions, and um, it's not about the cost anymore, it's not about the the product. Most Apple users couldn't tell you anything about what Microsoft does, what Samsung phones do, better or worse. They just don't care. And so it's just creating that type of loyalty. Um, it's it's working based on um purpose and and they're using it for things that maybe aren't as uh meaningful to us. Um, and so I'm suggesting that you can use the same thinking and methodology and apply it to how you uh bring your faith into your business, possibly.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. I mean, a lot of times you go into a company's website and it says something like, we're the best, or we're the highest quality, or it just basically is like, look how great we are. But one of the things that I love about Apple is that slogan, think different. They're not they're not just saying we think different, like we're we're the most different thinkers in the whole world, or it's more like think different. Like, are you the kind of person that thinks different? If so, you probably want to use the products that we're making because we also think different. And we're gonna be on this journey together of thinking differently, and maybe even to the extreme of being contrarian, you know. Um but but that's the it's like it's more like an imitation. It's not look how great we are. I mean, I think that that in and of itself would help a lot of uh organizations with their branding if they just stop focusing so much on how great they are and start to speak the language of the people they're trying to reach.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Look how great we can be. We can look how great we can help you become, right? Yeah. That's that's the idea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So what are some of the other biblical principles of branding we should be thinking about?
SPEAKER_02Um, well, I the process that we we've call uh created for this is called overflow, and that comes from where Jesus is talking about just out of the overflow of your heart, your mouth will speak out of the abundance of your heart. And so the authenticity is what we're looking at there. It's like, can we get a can we get a brand to really look at itself and uncover what drove it, uncover what God's put in you, your spiritual gifts, your talents, your abilities. He's he's given you the tools to live out the life in your personal life, in your business life, um, to do exactly what he's called you to do. And so, can we can we create systems and processes for branding that pulls that out and says, tell this story out of the overflow of this authentic thing that's in me, this is why this company exists. And um, that's the kind of stuff that people will connect with. And so, just to me, marketing may be like uh people have a negative opinion of it sometimes, like it can get a bad rap if it's not authentic and not accurate, and so um just those simple truths of you know, don't lie, right? It's just like those kind of things they apply to your your marketing, and so we're trying to dig in and tell an authentic message, and so it's really important to us that we um because we believe that if God's put it in there and he's given you vision around it and it's all from him and it's for him, then there is an important message to tell. And so we just got to get in there and figure it out. So, what what is coming out of the overflow? That's an important one, uh, for sure, um, about the way that we approach branding.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that is powerful. And um What are some of the the examples of companies, organizations that have kind of gone through that process and are really getting it right in the marketplace?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so we've we've worked with uh quite a few and um over the years, and then as we started to do overflow with them, um which is our kind of our signature process now, it's um it's helped them a lot. So um we worked with a lot of uh medium, small, small to medium-sized businesses um through these kind of processes. And uh uh couple have come to mind. So uh there's one that's as simple as a concrete company here in the in the Metroplex that you'd think that'd be the last place that you'd think they would have this really amazing branding story, but Colt Concrete uh is a Dallas-based concrete company that we we took through in the process that the business owner uh came in and was trying to felt like God was calling him to do something meaningful because his he basically worked at this company out of just a broken life. And so all these awful things happened to him and um just pretty much lost everything and then worked his way up in this company because his dad had owned this company, and so he went from the crew to the CEO over a series of years and then felt like God was saying, Hey, I want to um make this a place of redemption for others too. And so we started unpacking that story and like how do we tell this story about concrete and this story of redemption? And so we start digging into these this story and um basically started to see that that that message overlapped, like you're repairing and restoring surfaces and parking lots, and you're also trying to do that for people. And so you can see how we start to find that purpose story in there, and then we start applying it to messaging and branding. And so um we said we came up with this phrase called paved for good. So um that was the the conversation, the purpose conversation starter. We said, uh, no matter what conversation you're in with a client or a prospect or whatever, and you're gonna you're you're going in there to sell concrete services, don't get me wrong. So you've got to you've got to say this purpose starter piece and see where it goes, right? So the idea is that we are we're called concrete, where we do worry free pavement repair, and it's paid for good. And it's not just the good quality that it's gonna last, but it's about the people that we're impacting. Um, and starting with you, property manager, who's ever you know the contact is. And so we're starting to like, we want to help you succeed. And here's how we do that. And then we because when we do, then our families succeed and the people that make an impact, and we start to see lives changed, right? So I'm telling that's just a simple 10-second story that could go much deeper, or could go if the client in them situation says, That's cool, can you just tell me how much the price is? You can still have those kind of pivot points, but it's just introducing purpose, just like if you're trying to convince them of the gospel. It's like tell it, what is God doing here? How where do we pivot? What do we need to do? But it's just helping uh they could really align and connect relationally with someone uh so easily. And so we try to show the impact that people are having through their businesses because at the end of the day, purpose is all about how you transform other people. Yeah, that's what God's all about. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you happen to remember off top of your head what that company's previous tagline was before you started working with them?
SPEAKER_02Um, they didn't really have one. I'd say it's more about just the best pavement company in DFW, those kind of things like you're saying earlier. And so it's just a lot of generic text and nothing set them apart and nothing to remember, basically.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And does he feel like now when he goes and he starts talking about the company that he's getting a different reaction?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, it's it's uh with you working with clients, it's like you never know like what they're gonna if they're gonna connect with something like that or not. Um, but uh it definitely happens and it it usually happens over time with the on the customer side. With the employee side and the recruiting side, it happens immediately. Like immediately. And so um it's so hard to get people that are good fits for your organization because people are they're just hitting, you know, the apply button on all these job sites. Um and and so we've we've trained our clients to restate their job listing copy even to communicate their purpose in it. And when they click and go to the website to find out more, it's just filled with purpose-driven content. And and so we're getting clients who are thrilled, people are coming in, it's like vetting them, it's like a polarizing thing. It's either gonna either gonna be excited about it because people are talking about how we impact lives of this company, and you're gonna be wanting to be a part of that because where you're at now doesn't care at all. Um, and you come into an organization that's and where that when they walk into the interview, they're saying, Hey, I read this, it's it's meaningful to me, um, and I want to be a part of it. Now, people still come into the company and do interviews, and if they don't mention any of that, you pretty much know may not be a good fit. Like they're not gonna want to join this tribe that we're trying to build here. So that's what we see an immediate reaction on. The customer side takes longer, you have to do more impressions, just like in any general uh marketing branding kind of effort to build it up. Take over time, it starts to uh represent um correctly though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, there's there's such impact and and significance in the work you do, and um you know, and maybe it's underappreciated by a lot of CEOs and business owners that they don't understand what they're missing by bringing in a professional like yourself to help them think through this. And I I've seen it as well. I mean, it uh it will transform a company when they start to rally around uh just a couple of statements that define, as you said, the the overflow, what's really in their heart. They they know that it's been there, but they've never really been able to articulate uh the overflow to use the the term that you're using. Um what do you what would you say to somebody who's listening that is um kind of on a fence about maybe just going all in on bringing it and and really thinking through and articulating what their brand needs to be.
SPEAKER_02I would say it's the same thing I would say to myself previous to doing all this. That's why I feel like God gave me this process because he needed me to walk through it so that I could help other people do it. Um and I was the last person either thought would ever reorient their whole business around other people. Honestly, that's what I'm doing. I'm just not the people are I'm not gonna light up a room necessarily. If you just stuck me in there, I'd be pretty quiet and just go about my business. But basically, God said, No, you're here from for me. This is my business and this is my vision for it, and you're the steward of it. And uh, I've put all this in you and it's there. And um, all you have to do is just just learn about it, learn about yourself, understand your personality profile, understand your spiritual gifts. I've given you the tools that you need. I just need you to submit. I need you to follow me, need you to listen to me and walk it out. And it can be um, it's just created this completely transformational company that I work in and show up in every day. And um, we now have so many processes just to help people understand who they are and in their purpose, and then walk it out and then how they do their job every day. And so that just giving hope to the business leader that's that that's possible. That if I what I'm 25 years roughly into my career at this point, and it was it's just night and day between that before that and now, and it's just like um this is what I was created to do. And I just never really thought that God had that much for me in that in the business. And so um I would just encourage them to that there's hope, you can bring meaning to it. Um, these tools that we have are process-based and they take discipline and you got to work through them, and it's it's consistency is key. Like you've got to be willing to focus on it and stay with it and not get distracted by all the things that we kind of can get distracted by as business leaders. But if you do it and you you reorient the whole thing around uh this hunt, this chase is not about dollars, it's about purpose and God and his vision and achieving it and inspiring other people to see that and join in that and raise their capacity while they do that in the company. It raises the entire company's capacity to now we're achieving things we never thought possible. That's all really possible. And so it just excites me. Um, that's the story God's giving me to go and help other people do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Beautiful. Well, Aaron McClung.com is your website. Uh, is there anything else you want our listeners to know about what you're working on, how they can get involved?
SPEAKER_02I mean, the that's my personal uh like blogging website you can get on there. Our agency is uh discoveram.com as well. So we have content, more of the purpose content and the thought leadership thinking is on the airmoclone.com and then our agencies. You can learn more about that there. Um, but no, we're trying to help uh companies take this new idea, this messaging, and bring it not only to their marketing, but to their culture as well. And so um just helping to have a cohesive thought, and we've got uh systems in place to help that, and that's what we're trying to do is is to take this fuzzy thing, this now it could be perceived as an emotional thing and turn it into a structured process as much as possible to help uh be more consistent. So that's one of the reasons I feel like God has given that to me because He's that's how He wired me, is to be structured and to be you know linear in the process and um you know tackle real problems in companies. There's always you know people issues. And so, but this is at the heart of it is a people process. So um it's just so seeing yourself as a in your business as a ministry and and knowing that God has given you exactly what you need to be the leader of that business, um, to not uh to completely believe that it's possible. That's kind of what I want to inspire people to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. AaronMcClung.com and discoveram.com are the websites. They'll be in the show notes. Aaron, thanks for the work you're doing. It's so important, so valuable, and we appreciate you spending the time with us today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. It's been great to meet you and talk to you and share more. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity in Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity in Business at Christianity in Business.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.