This episode of the Theology of Business Podcast is sponsored by our friends at GWT2 Energy. Do you want to increase the profit margins of your restaurant or retail operation? One way to do that is to lower your energy costs. With over 20 years' experience helping restaurants and retailers reduce their energy bills, GWT2 Energy helps owners and operators create a customized energy savings plan that will achieve up to 25% energy savings. To start saving and become more profitable, visit gwt2energy.com. That's the number two, gwt2energy.com. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Theology of Business Podcast. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps marketplace Christians explore and apply God's will for business, which I'm convinced is to cultivate company cultures that reflect and reveal Jesus Christ. And that's with whatever measure of influence we have in our company companies, whether you're at the entry level or you're the CEO of the company, like our guest Joel Manby has been many times. Joel, uh drawing on over 25 years of CEO experience of major corporations, Joel wrote Love Works, in which he introduces us to the power of agape love. That's the God kind of love. That's not just if you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back, but the God kind of unconditional love in the workplace. Love Works has sold over a hundred thousand copies, and a new expanded version was just released a couple of months ago. Previously, Joel was CEO of SeaWorld and served as CEO of Hershen Enterprises, an entertainment company with brands such as the Harlem Globetrotters and Dollywood. Additionally, he spent 20 years in general management in the auto industry. After he went undercover on the hit TV show Undercover Boss, which was a great episode. Y'all ought to go back. I'm pretty sure it's still on uh Hulu or Netflix. Netflix, I think. Yeah, you can definitely get it out there. His episode was the second most popular program on all of US television during the week it aired, and second to only American Idol. And I think, Joel, it might have been number one if you had done that Johnny Cash routine I saw floating around on the internet. Um, but he he does just uh a great sort of cover of uh prison blues and um except it's coveted. Yeah, except it's covet. It's covet, and he's got some genius lyrics uh to just you know just sing in the blues about this uh COVID COVID experience that we're going through right now. Joel, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_03Hey Darren, it's great to be on the program. And uh yeah, I think if you just google YouTube, Folsom Prison or Cul COVID Prison, I think it'll pop up. I know Undercover Boss is on uh YouTube as well, uh, if it's not on Netflix. But anyway, thanks for that introduction.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, this thing's going viral. And um, and so we we really want to camp out on this concept of love works. And I think, Joel, before I came across this book and heard you on some different shows um even years ago, uh I had not really heard this concept of love show up in the in the workplace. It just seems like something that you might hear about in church or in a marriage conference or something like that. But in the in the workplace, why is it hard for business leaders to talk about love in the workplace?
SPEAKER_03It's it's a great question because I actually spent the first 20 years of my career, Darren, looking for this kind of leadership. I was I was in the auto industry and it was very autocratic, very fear-based. And even as the leader of Saab, North America there, I just didn't see role models. And I kept thinking, I had this huge angst inside that I want to lead a better way, but I didn't have any role models. And so it wasn't until I got to Herschend and went to the theme park business there as CEO and chairman that I really was taught by the Herschans that you could love and get great results. And I think I'm not the only one that feels that angst all the time. You know, I think there's a lot of people that long for better leadership, long for leaders they can really respect and get and that treat them the right way, but they don't see it. I think the reasons why are there's a lot, but I think the top couple are most leaders are afraid of how they're going to be perceived because they perceive love as soft, and as we can get into, it's not soft at all. It actually is hard to do, and it also gets great results. Um I think people are afraid of how they'll be perceived, again, along the line of being too soft, or they're afraid that it's not going to work because they haven't seen it other places. Um, it's certainly not because they don't think it's important, because Jesus made it really clear it's the number one commandment of all, yet for some reason we're afraid to take it in the workplace. And that's why I'm thankful for my experience at Herschel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, and if we're not leading with love, and you've really pioneered this phrase, if we're not leading with love in our organizations, what are we most likely, what's left? What are we leading with?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think it is either our own power, we're trying to lead with our own just IQ competence, which can be very self-serving and maybe too focused on ourselves. I think that, and that's what you end up with either fear or uh fear-based leadership, autocratic leadership, too much control. But when you start leading with love, you actually transition, and this is a tough transition for most people, and some of it's age thing, but you start transitioning to my job as a leader is to make other people better, to make them great leaders, not to do well myself. And that's how you can grow and scale a company. So I think that's another big point of why love is such an important leadership principle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we're gonna get into some of the practical applications of what this looks like. But uh first for those of our listeners that might be still a little bit skeptical about this sounds a little bit too soft, Joel. I don't think this is really what's gonna move the needle for us. How effective has this Love Works approach been for you?
SPEAKER_03Well, let me step back to answer that because it's it's a really important question. I'm glad you asked it. And that most people wouldn't perceive it as being really a great thing for the numbers, too. And let's face it, in business, we have to hit the numbers. Um here's an interesting stat from Gallup. Gallup's been doing customer survey, basically employee engagement scores for 50 years. And for about 50 years, it's remained pretty flat that only 30% of employees give the top score on their engagement. So only 30% of employees feel they're engaged in their work at the top level, which I think is a really horrifically bad score. But when we would go into Herschel properties, we would buy something and put these Love Works principles in place within three years, and it typically takes three years, we would see engagement scores go from as low as 15% or 30% all the way to 70 or 80%, which is absolutely world class. 80% of people fully engage, that's like Disney, that's like Apple. These are world-class scores. And yet, usually the frontline people didn't change. It was the leaderships who had to, the leadership that had to change. We saw turnover go down, we saw profitability go up, cash flow go up. And at the same time, the most important thing is our engagement scores went up with our frontline. That made our guest experience better, and our guest experience scores went up. In fact, in Stone Mountain in Atlanta, which is one of the properties we ran for the state of Georgia, they were at 70% engagement. And three years later, they were the best in our entire enterprise at 85% top box engagement scores. That's just one example of the power of putting these principles into place. Um and what I'll add to that is I that I think, and I'd love to get into this more if we have time, the key reason I think it works so well is we don't just talk about do goals, meaning you got to hit a profit margin or you've got to hit a sales goal or how many people on a podcast. We also then that's kind of what you do every day. We also spent just as much time talking about the the B goals. What kind of leader do you want to be, and how do you go about doing the what? And that those the the what compared to the how is is really how we differentiated it. The how was defined as these seven words of love. So we taught our leaders those seven words, and we actually held them accountable to them. And so it it did really get results and um the it's the proofs of the numbers.
SPEAKER_01And you said something so powerful, uh, many things there, but one that stuck out to me was that you replace you had to replace the leadership, not the not the front line. And so I think maybe a lot of uh the there may be some myths out there in the minds of some of our listeners and and certainly, you know, probably none of our listeners, but uh around, you know, in other companies that, well, we just need to get better people. Um, and and really it's the leadership that's that's the issue. Can you uh expound on that a little bit?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I'm not saying certainly there were frontline folks that weren't working out and you say you have to make a change sometimes, but for the most part, it all starts at the top. It really is true. If your leadership doesn't support, if your management team doesn't support it, it's gonna be much, much harder for the frontline to make it happen. Having said that, there are multiple examples, and I give a few in my in my book that talk about what a great impact you can have no matter what your level is in the company. But having said that, to make transformational change in the whole company, your leadership needs to be completely on board. And the good thing is typically, I'd say 80% of the time, those people self-selected out because it it was more difficult. Sometimes, you know, it's easier just to live by the numbers and say, if you don't hit your attendance figures, you're out, and I'll find somebody else who can hit that number. That's kind of the auto industry. Whereas in in our our company, success was both the do and the be. You had to have a balance. And if people didn't buy into that, they tended to self-select out, although sometimes we had to have difficult decisions. But um, I would say at Stone Mountain, probably 40% of the leadership turned over, including the number one person. Um, but that that wasn't always the case, but it was often the case. And I as I'm hearing my words, it sounds a little crass, I can tell you. There's there's never been a firing or a release that I felt good about, that I enjoyed. I hated every single one of them. But in the end of the day, you know, if they're not backing the company's strategy on culture, you know, it's time, it's time to make a change. And I think that's important for anyone listening to know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because ultimately you're not just marketing products and services, you're marketing culture.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03Right? Especially in today's world, Darren. I mean, you know it as well as or better than I do. You, your generation, the next generation after you are even more concerned with how the employees are treated, the guests are treated, whether it's all all the issues out there today, right? We could touch on all of them. You have to be a better company, I think, than than when I was growing up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially in the in the service industry. I mean, you your culture is your product.
SPEAKER_03That's exactly right. And you're right. It's not maybe in some other technology companies, it's not as critical, but I think I still think it's critical because it all comes through somehow. Right. You're right. In service industries, it's indispensable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so you've written this book, Love Works, Seven Timeless Principles for Effective Leaders. And these principles are timeless because they come from the Bible. And there's seven because they come from First Corinthians chapter 13, the love chapter. Yeah. A business book based uh an organizational leadership book based on the love chapter. And and so for those who there just to refresh anyone's memory, love is patient, love is kind. And so you've gone through and and identified these seven principles: patient, kind, trusting, unselfish, truthful, forgiving, dedicated. Which which one of these would you say is typically the most difficult, or maybe which one or two of these is typically the most difficult for uh business managers and leaders?
SPEAKER_03Well, uh I'm willing to answer that, but let me start with one thing about those words because uh and what the book the book goes into this, but each one in and of itself may not be understandable at on the surface or maybe misunderstood. And I'll give an example. But we had three to four behaviors for each word, so call it call it 21, three times seven, twenty one behaviors that we taught. So, for instance, to get to answer your question, um, for me, truthfulness was always the most difficult one because I'm a people pleaser, I'm a three on the Enneagram, so I don't like to disappoint others. I tend to tell them a little bit what I what they want to hear versus what absolutely they need to hear. Now, I've learned as CEO, obviously you can't do that. So I learned away from it, but my natural instinct was to not always tell the absolute truth. So in one of the behaviors was does your employee know exactly where they stand? Because there should never be any surprises, especially in Christian organizations, frankly, and I've been on a board of many, I find that that's their biggest weakness is there's a tendency to be too nice and not hold people accountable, and then the good people leave because the bad, the people aren't so hot, stick around and aren't held accountable. That is a very, very common tale. And so if you said the one word for Christian organizations, I would say make sure you're being truthful. And the book goes through how to do that. There's a way to do that and still leave the other person with their dignity. And um, for instance, under patience, we always had one of the definitions or behaviors under patience was to praise in public, admonish in private. Very, very common sense point. But the truth is, many people don't do it, right? They admonish people publicly, they embarrass them, they they do it without leaving the person's dignity intact. And you know, it happened to me at Saab, even when I was CEO of Saab, I traveled to Sweden and got beat up for an entire four-hour period for for missing a quarter. And literally, I'm emotionally checked out on that. Even as CEO flying back, a headhunter called me or a search person called me two weeks later, and I was open to it. And I left, if but I would have said no to that call if I hadn't gotten so drilled unnecessarily. And so patience is is really important. And then kind or truthfulness, I think, is the one that's um toughest. And even though you didn't ask us, I'll add one more um if you don't mind, yes, is kindness, I think, is the most misunderstood word. Because kindness sounds like what we're talking about, our fear of being too nice all the time, right? What it really means is encouragement while you also give the truth, because truth balance kindness. So it's kind of grace and truth kind of balance. Research says, and Dr. Henry Cloud writes a lot about this, you need five positives for every negative to see yourself as an effective employee. The truth is our minds are wired and human beings are wired. We tend to go to the negative, we tend to be negative to other people. And if we if we aren't five to one positive, negative, they'll probably slowly sink away. So it's really important to be spend that time encouraging other people. Um, Jack Herschend did it through handwritten notes that he would send out three a day, you know, over a 40-year career. There's thousands of handwritten notes from Jack Hershand out there. That's the kind of purposeful leadership that I'm talking about in the book, is that it doesn't just happen by happenstance. You have to have good behaviors, good skills, good quiet time. This very purposeful set of behaviors that we're teaching. So that's that's a long-answered question, but I think it's truth. Patience and kindness are the either the three toughest or the three most misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01Love that. What are some of the other some of your favorite stories and exam examples maybe from Herschel or you know, CWorld or anywhere you've um experienced the on a on a positive note or a negative uh uh aspects related to any of these these seven principles?
SPEAKER_03Cash and I've never been asked that before. I love that question, but the answers are jumping into my brain quickly, and that is um the one that's the most positive is probably on selflessness. Um after in the 2007-2008 implosion when the world was going out of business and Lehman went out of business, and the theme park, we had 35% drop in sales in in a week. And we had just bought three companies, we were up against our debt covenants, we were looking at maybe you know having a real cash crunch issue. So we had to cut literally 50% of our cash flow, and and the team got together, meaning expenses. I said cash flow, but 50% of our expenses to preserve cash. And our team got there in about 30, 37 minutes, but part of the plan was to lay off about 300 people. I gave them a day to think about other options, and the management team came back and they said, well, we'll not only will we all take pay cuts, because we did discuss the management team taking pay cuts, but that still led to 350 layoffs. They came back and said, the entire management team and the next level down will all take payout pay cuts so we don't have to lay anybody off. And then that went to another park and another park, and pretty soon the whole company, um, other than some a few corporate jobs, we didn't have to lay anybody off. And that was, and even in even that, I'll just say this about the corporate positions. Even there, we gave them six months' notice. We let them look for a job while they had a job, and everyone but one had a job before the six months was up, and we helped that one person get one. So it's it's how you go about doing it that's selfless, and I was so proud of our team. I think um on the other side, trust. Um I just took trust for granted, obviously, there, or not obviously, when I was at Herschend, I was there for 13 years. I loved the Herschel family. I I loved working there, I trusted everybody. When I went to SeaWorld, I I forgot or underestimated what it's like to work for a board and a few senior leaders that didn't buy into a Love Works kind of culture.
SPEAKER_01I was actually gonna ask you about that because you went from a privately held Christian-led company to, and I don't know what the ownership dynamics of C is it publicly. Is it public?
SPEAKER_03It's public and it's it was a mess. And uh I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to interrupt you.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, no, no, no. What was that?
SPEAKER_03What was that like in and it related to the principle that you were gonna so um I think the first question that you didn't ask for, but it's kind of like why did why did I even do it, right? I mean, I love I love the Herschens, I love what I was doing there. Um, part of it was personal. I just felt I had done what I was supposed to do there, but part of it was because I really wanted to put Love Works in a public company, right? It's definitely harder. No one would argue it's easier because you have 90-day results to to the Wall Street hounds that don't care about culture.
SPEAKER_01And this is when SeaWorld was really in trouble in the in the negative spotlight, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we we uh the the CEO before me uh was was asked to leave because they lost you know 50% of their cash flow. Blackfish was out, negative film about the company. We were um we had some negative legislation that was actually trying to outlaw breeding of killer whales in the whole country. Nancy Pelosi was behind not Pelosi, but um Speinstein, sorry. Um anyway, that we were in some real hurt. And what so I wanted to bring these Christian principles into a public company. And the truth is, if you if if I had time, and we don't, but to really dig into the numbers, our our engagement scores went up every year. And when I left, our our sales were up 12%, California was up 50%. We had had a bad year the year before, but we were really trending in the right direction. Where I got into big trouble was I I got into trust issues with the Board. To make a long story short, I didn't agree with what they were asking me to do. I thought it was not in the best long-term interest. They had their opinion and they're, you know, they're fine. We disagreed. And not with the whole board, but with a couple key ones. And I think the board turned over 100% while I was there. I had two different chairmen. So there was just never an opportunity to build that unified team. And so that's the part of my story that changed in the second book versus the first. I would tell all your listeners, you know, if you if you can make it, you can make a difference at any level of the company. And even if your ownership is just passive and they're not, you're not sure they support you on it, but you're getting the job done, everything's quiet, you're good. But if you have someone that you feel is actually not looking after your own best interest, has really their own best interest in mind, not maybe the company's, and you don't trust them or they're abusive to you verbally, that's the time to cut and run. And I think if anything, I maybe stayed too long trying to make it work, and it costs me, it costs me very dearly. Um my health, uh working all the time. I mean, we to make a long story short, uh, within six months, I had been married, I had been married 30 years. I lost my marriage and my job at Sea Level within six months because of a lot of my own unhealthy decisions, unhealthy and just numbing the pain of it, uh, working 20 hours a week, seven days a week. So it costs me so dearly that I feel like every podcast I'm on, every time I communicate, I want to be able to tell young leaders, be careful what you wish for, on one hand, because if I had just said, I'm where God's calling me, I don't need to leave, I don't need to prove anything about being in a public company. I think having that on my checklist or bucket list of being a public company CEO was just in the end of the day, cost me a great, great deal. And I see so many young folks that are all talking about being entrepreneurs and you know making millions off the internet or whatever. That's not bad in of itself, but I think we just have to be careful, be careful what we wish for. And um, I go into all that in the book. I don't mean to belabor this podcast with that, with that tough story, but it is there's a way out. The good news is I'm five years out of the darkness now, and I'm I feel I'm getting back, but it was a really, really tough, tough period because of I think not being aligned with people that I should have been aligned with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that principle of being unequally yoked, right? I mean, you you got as a CEO, you were so used to being able to uh working with with owners that had a shared worldview, and now you're with people that they don't see it that way, right?
SPEAKER_03Right, right. And and uh you know the good news is I at least was able to help with the frontline folks, and we we did turn the business around, but the speed at which we were doing that, the owners wanted something more dramatic, and and uh that's their right. And I'm not looking they made their decision, and that's fine. It all worked out tremendously well for me. I'm certainly glad I'm not running theme park company in this pandemic, but oh my god, I just I just didn't want to go that um without at least touching on that issue that it is the best solution is to be around owners and senior leaders that support you in leading with love, but you still can have a huge impact even if they don't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And and it sounds like uh just a very painful experience. Um but but now you're you're you're teaching, you're coaching, you're you're consulting, speaking, writing, doing living the dream in a lot of ways. Um, what what do you what's keeping you busy nowadays?
SPEAKER_03You know, it's exactly what you said. My passion, uh as I hope you can hear in my voice, I I lived 20 years, I feel doing it the wrong way, and still had I had secular success, but I didn't feel at peace every time I went to work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And once I learned the principles that the Herschens taught me, which is obviously Jesus' number one commandment, I shifted from here's the best way I can say it. So many times in church, the preaching is you must go out and disciple people. They talk about the Great Commission. The facts say only about 3% of secular Christians proselytize or try to convert people. I think that's actually true. It's probably 3% or less, because the only way you really proselytize is to love other people. So I shifted from being guilty about not fulfilling the Great Commission to feeling completely fulfilled because I felt like I was fulfilling the greatest commandment and how I treated people. So I want to spend the rest of my days on this earth to help other companies with love works, speak about it, that people know if they're a young person like I was working in the auto industry, there are ways you can do it. You can minister to anybody, no matter what role you have in life, whether you're a parent of a family or whether you're running a Fortune 500 company and everything in between, I don't think God asks us to love just at church or just at home. He asks us to love our enemy. And that's a tough, tough calling, but the love works principles show that it can be done. So that's what I'm doing. I'm just I'm I'm loving it and I feel very, very blessed.
SPEAKER_01How can people get involved with what you're doing?
SPEAKER_03So I the probably the easiest is my website, uh joelmanby.com. Uh I I blog, I write about this issue. Right now we're focused a lot on crisis leadership, obviously, with Corona. So if they um with the COVID virus, if they um if they want to buy the book through the website, that those are three-part series on crisis leadership that comes free with that. It's the same price as Amazon and all that. But um that's probably the best way to go. Um, the book's available on Amazon and Autoball as well, but that's where they can connect with me and would love to just to know how I can help people take this concept further. I think the the one thing that I probably didn't make as clear as I need to is almost everybody has a set of values on a plaque. You know, as Cheryl Bashelder from Popeye says we have a plaque problem, and 90% have words on a plaque, only 10% of organizations have processes of how to back those words in their company. And then when I talk about we taught it, we paid people, we discussed it with them. You had to have the be goals and the do goals right to be um successful at this, and that's where the magic is. It's not just the words, it's the process behind them. And that's where I spend most of my time consulting and helping other companies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And in this COVID crisis environment that we're in, uh, what is, as we're wrapping it up here, what would be your advice for business leaders on, because I know you you teach a lot on crisis leadership. Uh, what is your message right now for for business leaders?
SPEAKER_03How long of an answer do you want? Two minutes? Um, I'll give you the two-minute version. I could go for more on that. Um, you know, I'll I'll apply them back to the words. I always like to apply them back to love. On the truthfulness side as one of the words, I see leaders that I talk to on the phone, they want to be truthful, but they also feel like they want to give certainty to their employees. You know, they I don't want them to think they might lose their job, or I'm I'm not, but I don't know what's gonna happen. And so instead of giving them certainty, I think we have to give clarity, and there's a difference. None of us have certainty about what's gonna happen. But if and they can read uh a lie or a uh putting frosting cake on a pig, so frosting on a pig in a hurry. So you must be dreadfully honest and give clarity, not certainty. I think the other thing on trusting, which is another word of the seven, I see so many leaders take control. Um the more we're in crisis, the more autocratic it becomes when actually that slows decision making down, especially in bigger companies. So it's actually more important to delegate. And the tip I would give there that I've seen be really effective in a crisis, instead of sticking to your normal org structure, I've seen the most successful companies kind of break up the what do we have to do today to save the business in the crisis, like the operating team, cutting costs, just doing the best you can, versus the team that's look looking at the vision of how do we pivot based on this pandemic. And if you try to put that all in your normal management team structure, I've seen it just not work. It moves too slow, the the skill sets aren't right. So those are just two off the top of my head things that I've seen in this crisis. And um, the last thing I'm gonna say, because I think it's a great way to end as you're trying to wrap, is forgiveness. But it's not forgiveness of others, it's forgiveness of ourselves. And none of us feel like we're leading like we want to lead right now. It's very fragmented, people feel left out, the Zoom calls are driving us crazy, we can't have the water cooler conversations as much. We are leading in unprecedented times, and I think we have to forgive ourselves, we have to get our rest. You know, an exhausted leader is not a great leader, and take care of ourselves, or we're not going to be able to take care of our own employees. And I see a lot of people that are on the edge of completely burning out, really frustrated. I think you know, suicide race, depression, all those things are going up. So I I beg of people to you know take care of themselves and remember God, God is the only one. Jesus' love is the only thing that can give us contentment. And there are no certainties in this world, and there never really have been. So those, I think just forgiving yourselves for not being perfect and then um loving on your team.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I love that that principle about providing clarity, not certainty, because who can who of us can provide that certainty to people? We don't know what is going to happen in the markets tomorrow. We don't know what's gonna happen with the government tomorrow, but uh we can just we can trust God and be clear about uh the just the reality that we're that we're facing.
SPEAKER_03And um and and also be clear about um that that there are better days ahead, that there's hope that there's you know, in the end of the day, there is hope, Darren, because there there will be a vaccine to this thing within six to twelve months. And this I think we're gonna bounce back really quickly, but it's gonna be extremely painful on on certain sectors, and we just have to get through it. So it's uh I feel for a lot of people right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, love works, seven timeless principles for effective leaders is the book. And Joel Manby, M-A-N-B-Y dot com, is the website where you can uh read some of Joel's articles and uh and I know you can also get the book there as well. Uh Joel, this is just packed with value. Uh thank you for your time and your your leadership and and uh just providing an example of of what's possible for uh kingdom impact in the marketplace. Sure appreciate you.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate you, Darren. I really am I'm really captivated by what you're trying to do as well. Obviously, you're singing the same from the same hymn though, so keep doing what you're doing and just know that you're you're right on target. You're spot on with what you're trying to accomplish. Thank you, brother. All right, thanks, Darren.
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