Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dave Kale. Dave is uh now this is he's a three-peat guest on this show. This is actually a record. So congrats, Dave.
SPEAKER_02Um we're gee, I didn't I wasn't aware of that, Darren. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01Dave is the author of the good book on business and exploration of the Bible on business. He's been a Bible teacher, elder, house church leader, short-term missionary, and executive roundtable leader. For 30 years, he's been one of the world's leading authorities on sales and sales systems. And in that regard, he has spoken in 47 states, 11 countries, and has authored 13 books. Dave, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren. It's always a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01So we're going to talk about one of the books that you've written is titled The Heart of a Christian Salesperson. And in this conversation about marketplace Christianity and how do I honor God in business, one of the issues that comes up again and again is from salespeople that are that are trying to live out their their vocation, their profession as salespeople in a way that honors God. What are some of the unique challenges that you faced as a Christian sales professional that non-Christian sales professionals don't usually face?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, you know, I like to tell, I'd like to tell a story about when I was hired for the for my first professional sales position, because I think it I think it capsulizes some of those some of those issues. And it's a it's kind of a longer response to your question, Darren. But uh when I was hired, I was I was interviewing, and um in the course of the interview process, the uh who was eventually my manager said that uh the reason they were replacing this position, they were replacing someone who they had terminated from this position, and the reason they terminated because he was dishonest on his uh call reports. So so I mentioned in the interview that uh thinking it was a strength, you know, I mentioned, well, I'm uh so I'm a Christian, and I won't, uh, you don't have to worry about me being dishonest on call reports. Well, so uh then I got a call from the recruiter who said, you know, he was gonna offer you the job at that, this is a lunch, he was gonna offer you the job at the launch, but when you said you were a Christian, he he didn't. And he's rethinking the whole thing. And I thought, wow, um this thing about being a Christian salesperson is gonna be tricky. And so that's uh that's really how I start the book with that story. Uh the Heart of a Christian Salesperson is my story about about being a Christian salesperson. It's tricky. It's tricky because there's there are um there's a sort of a conventional wisdom about salespeople, that they're fast talkers and you know, they're kind of um not always to be trusted, and and so on. And so there's there is uh among a certain segment of the population, there is that idea. And if you have that idea, it's really tough then to be a salesperson and have that idea of them. You know, so so one thing that you gotta that you have to uh so go up against is the world's view of a salesperson, and in this particular case, my manager's view of a Christian as a salesperson.
SPEAKER_01So do you think a lot of companies nowadays actually would prefer to hire salespeople that are, shall we say, um uh less than honest?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't think so. I mean, sure, sure there are some. You know, there are some really uh uh high pressure, schlocky situations. Uh but for the most part, you know, I I work uh primarily in the world of business-to-business sales. So these are organizations, distributors and manufacturers and big service companies who have sales forces of uh five to two hundred, let's say. And um, you know, for the most part, uh almost almost exclusively, the people who uh I interact with, the the uh chief sales officers and the leaders, the vice presidents and the CEOs of those companies are are good, whether not whether they're Christians or not, they're good, honest people who understand the role of honesty and integrity in the in the uh in the world of business. So I don't think anybody, well, I shouldn't say anybody, but for the most part, uh, you know, well-established companies are not gonna be hiring, intentionally hiring people who who aren't honest and and uh and uh you know have a lack of integrity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'll never forget, I had just finished giving a briefing to our wing commander back when I was uh a lieutenant in the air force. And there was there was something I said at some point in the in the briefing where afterwards our our our operations officer, he came up to me and said, you know, you might not want to be quite so honest about um some of those metrics. I don't he might not have said honest, but it was you might not want to be uh quite so forthcoming about certain, you know, some of those certain statistics. And and and that's just in the that's in the Air Force, you know, when there's when there's money on the table and you have an opportunity to um make a quick sale by withholding some information. I mean, that seems like a great temptation, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02It is, it is, yeah. See, that's that's the issue with uh with sales, and that's why that's why there's such a need for Christian salespeople. Uh and and the issue is that in the world of sales, you're dealing with a lot of people and you're dealing with a lot of money. And when you so either one of those by itself is uh a source of a lot of temptation. But when you put the two of them together, now you got now you got a world where that is just full of all kinds of temptations, whether they be uh financial or or otherwise. You know, it's it just comes with the territory. And that's that's why I I believe it's a special ministry for a Christian to be a salesperson. I mean it's a it's a special, special ministry, special place in the kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you know, there's uh I don't remember who said it, but uh somebody said nothing happens until somebody sells something. So really, in a lot of ways, the whole um marketplace ministry movement kind of in a lot of ways sort of hinges on salespeople getting out and selling something. Otherwise, there really isn't a marketplace.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's so true, you know, and um salespeople are are essential to to the whole idea of a kingdom business. Um and you know what from my personal experience, I I would occasionally look at this number, and what I've discovered is that generally speaking, in the world of business to business, which is which is the world I live in, in the world of business to business, one salesperson generally supports four or five employees. So if you you know, if if uh if you got 300 employees divided by four, and that'll tell you how many salespeople there are, typically, you know, just as a rough rule of thumb. So that makes that makes um that's a lot of responsibility, and rightfully so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So Dave, how should Christians approach sales differently than their non-Christian uh peers?
SPEAKER_02Well, I don't know that I don't know that it should be differently. Uh well, I I suppose it should in the sense that you are you are a representative of the kingdom, and uh you you want to uh you want to do your work with excellence. Now, ideally, you'd want that for somebody uh who was not uh in the kingdom. You'd want them to strive for excellence, but I think it's it's mandatory for a Christian salesperson. You know, in Colossians 4.23 says, whatever you do, work at with all your heart is working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you'll receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. Uh and and I I really believe that that speaks specifically to Christian salespeople. I believe Christian salespeople have a responsibility to be excellent, to strive for excellence. Because in in the world of sales, if you are excellent, there comes with it some, there's some perks that come with it. Not only do you make more money, but but you get respect uh from your colleagues, your customers uh look on you with the same way, with respect. Your your opinion is asked by the managers and owners, uh, you know, so so there is an impact larger than just dollars and cents that comes with being excellent in sales. And I believe that uh Christian salespeople need their whole life to strive for excellence, to continually improve. So they be they become the head and not the tail. They're the ones that people look up to. And uh, you know, uh Peter said uh when someone asks you, be prepared to you know to give a reason for your faith, basically, and and when you're excellent and people see that in you, they want to know why, and it gives you it gives you um you know a place to start from to share why you why you strive for excellence. So now again, in an ideal world, everybody would, but it's but but very specifically, I think Christian salespeople should.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and of course, we're not in a agrarian age anymore. And a lot of the examples and parables and uh and contexts that are used to in the Bible and discussed in the Bible are kind of coming from farming and agricultural um examples. And and I think there are probably few professions that could relate to that more than a salesperson, right? Because when it comes to what what do they say, like the the average person doesn't buy until like the seventh or eighth contact, some something like that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, something like that, yep.
SPEAKER_01And and so what but what are some of the the principles that kind of guide you as a as a Christian from the Bible, even if it's not necessarily the tactics of selling, but you really have to have a strong faith to even stick with it and not just kind of rely on your ego.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, that's one right there, is that is that um in everything that you do, you you do it with faith, understanding the Lord's got this and He's He's got you, you know. I I I would say there's there's a couple things. Number number one is um to focus on the customer. I I believe that's biblical, you know, uh as we're we're told to uh you know be act certain ways to the world and so on. And I think uh a Christian salesperson would really, really work on getting to know the customer very well so that um he can he can provide uh quotes and products and services that are precisely designed for this or precisely fit to this particular customer. You know, in in my in one of my books, um how to sell anything to anyone, any anytime I I have a um sales process, and the sales process goes like this um uh engage with the right people first, make them comfortable with you, find out what they want, show them how what you have gives them what they want. And and that that show them how show them how you what you have gives them what they want, that's see that's crucial. And when I say focus on the customer, that's exactly what it means. So uh so a Christian salesperson is going to focus on the customer, understanding the customer. Now, is that a is that a best sales practice? Absolutely. And do best salespeople do that? Absolutely. But Christian salespeople have to be best, have to be in the best. And so should they do that better than anybody? Yes, they should. So that's that's one, you know, and um there's a there, uh, you know, there's a there's a challenge, and and this is really one of the challenges, I think, of of uh sales, Christian sales as well. And uh and that's this that we're you know, we're told in the Bible to uh trust uh God for results. And we understand that, you know, and there's a lot of effort done so the Lord will take care of the results. Yet in the world of sales, I mean, we are measured by results. I mean, and we are measured very precisely uh by the results that we get. And so to become good at sales, uh what that means is that you get measurable results, you get better measurable, quantifiable results than uh the average. So, how do you, as a Christian, how do you put those two things together? How do you understand your profession rewards you for results, and yet you're not, you're not, as a Christian, you're not to focus on results. How does that work? And that's a challenge, that really is a challenge for a lot of Christian salespeople, is to kind of negotiate that path between those two. And I think I uh you know, and I think I have a a response to that. And and it's uh and it's in doing what you do with excellence. If you do everything, you know, if you engage with the right people, make them comfortable with you, find out what they want, show them how what you have gives them what they want. If you do those fundamental sales things with excellence, the results will follow. And you do them not to get the results, you do them because you're working for the Lord. So but those those two go hand in hand. When you when you act with excellence, you get excellent results. So you don't have to focus on the results, focus on the process, focus on doing what you do really, really well, and let the and let the results remain with the Lord, and He will, He will bring greater results.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Well said. And so you started this scholarship fund, um, well, what's a thousand dollar scholarship for sales professionals to to go study selling sales at college. Correct. Tell us about this scholarship you're offering.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it's it's for college students uh who are studying to be professional salespeople, and uh for Christian college students. And um, so in the last 10 years or so, uh the unit a number of universities have gotten involved in training uh salespeople. And now they have majors in selling. And my alma mater, University of Toledo, is where I discovered this, where they called me. They saw my name uh as an author of a book and saw my background. They said, ah, we've got an alumni here, let's give them a call. And next thing you know, I'm at the University of Toledo and I'm speaking to the students in their sales program. And I was just absolutely overwhelmed with uh how what a great program it was. You know, when I was that age, there was no such thing as a major in selling. There's a lot of marketing stuff, but not selling. So what I discovered in my uh conversations and interaction with the University of Toledo is that there's a number of universities who do this now, who have programs for professional salespeople. And so what I want to do is reach into that world, find a Christian, a Christian who wants to be a professional salesperson, studying to be a professional salesperson, and I want to help that person. And uh, and we can, I mean, we're set up, we put together a fund, and we can help them, we can help somebody for $1,000 a year, just you know, for uh tuition and books and all that sort of thing, somebody who needs some help. And that's what we want to do. We want to be, and because we want to encourage, we want to encourage Christian sales as a very specific and special uh work and a ministry in the kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, that that speaks volumes of of your message, just the fact that you're offering this scholarship and shows how much you believe in what God is doing through salespeople and just the potential of salespeople to represent him in the marketplace. Uh and so how do people go about applying for this?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, they can just send an email, info, info at dv.com. Info at Dave Kale, K-A-H-L-E dot com, and uh put in the subject line scholarship. And we'll we'll take her from there.
SPEAKER_01Okay, perfect. Anything else you want to let our listeners know about, catch them up on uh that you're working on and how you they can get in touch with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, we're you know, uh a couple of years ago we uh we put uh you know, I'm a sales trainer and I've uh I've trained tens of thousands of salespeople live and in video and stuff like that. But but uh I was always concerned with what I call the gap between idea and action. You know, you can go to a seminar, you get a great idea, but actually putting it putting it into action is a is a whole different thing. And because that's where my mind goes, you know, I've I've constantly kind of worked at how to bridge the gap between idea and action. And so we came up with a uh with a methodology we call immersion. And um what we do is we immerse uh a sales person, a sales force into a set of concepts, uh, one at a time, one uh one a month. And um there's various pieces to the system. It's a it is a learning system that uh base is basically videos and podcasts and blog posts and uh practical exercises and a meeting that your manager holds every single month, which we script for him. And so it's it immerses the salesperson or actually the sales force into uh very powerful selling concepts. And we're getting we just get just uh uh way beyond anything I expected in terms of the results. I mean, we have people telling us you're you're transforming our company. We had uh we had one uh company that uh had uh about 100 salespeople, and uh they were up 20 percent. Their their key account penetration was up 73 percent. 73%. My goodness. And so that's the kind of stuff that we're getting using this immersion program. So we've got we've got a program for distributor salespeople, we've got one for business to business, and now we've got two more, one for new customers, and I'm working on what I'm working on right now. I mean, uh even today, is a time management program for salespeople. So, and we're all in this immersion methodology, which is just getting incredible, incredible results. So what's that? That's what so thanks for asking. Yeah, that's what I'm working on.
SPEAKER_01Of one of those um those principles, those kind of monthly principles that they get immersed into.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, what was the question?
SPEAKER_01What's an example of one of those? You said there's a different focus for each month. So, what's an example of uh of a monthly focus?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, so here's one. You know, we're talking about uh Christian salespeople and the process, and one step of the process is find out what they want. Okay, that sounds so simple, but it really is uh there are layers and layers and layers of depth. So we have two months, two months on connecting with the customer and finding out what they want by the use of all sorts of, you know, by good questions, by active listening, by responding to comments, by note-taking. And so there's a whole set of tactical skills that fall under the concept of find out what they want that really separates every separate somebody who's good at it from everybody else. So that's so that's one month. Just uh well, actually, that's two months. Part one and part two of find out what they want, and here's how to do it with very, very specifically.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great point because a lot of times we want to start out giving them what they need instead of first finding out what is it that they want, you know, and once you can tap into what they want, then you can follow up with what they really need.
SPEAKER_02From your That's such that's such a great uh insight, Darren. And it's and uh you would think it's glaringly obvious, but the world of sales is full of people who just want to push what they want to push and not put the customer at the top of the list.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, Dave, this has been uh a great conversation. I I I know as we pray before this uh this interview that especially those who are listening who are salespeople, uh, and if I mean a lot of us, if if if we're not selling, I mean, we're probably not seeing a whole lot of revenue coming into our companies. So um most of us, I would say, probably are salespeople, even though that we don't always think of ourselves in that in that way. Uh, but uh we just pray that people have been encouraged through this, and I know that they have, I know I have on a personal level. So sure appreciate you, Dave. It's always a pleasure chatting with you.
SPEAKER_02Well, you're welcome, uh dear Knight. I uh it's it's my pleasure, and uh thank you for having me back.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and we'll do it again soon.
SPEAKER_02All right, you got a deal.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.