Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the R.G.W. Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. William Oliver. William holds a master's from MIT and a Doctor of Management from Case Western. He taught in the undergraduate and master's programs at Brandeis, UMass, Amherst, Tufts, Gordon College, and UC Irvine. Dr. Oliver has founded four companies and invested as a partner in a venture capital firm. He has consulted to senior leadership of big business through Baining Company and KPMG, as well as to government agencies, bringing the benefit of commercial sector experience in outsourcing business process improvement and using data to improve management decision making. And he's also done a lot of great work to help people with special needs and developmental disabilities through his church, the Special Olympics, and as treasurer of an organization that's a mission-focused community where people with developmental disabilities and those who assist them live together as a family and as a sign of hope to the greater community. And he's done a lot of deep thinking on the subject of the fourth bottom line, which is going to be published as uh an article in the very near future. And the subtitle is How God Calls Christians to Praise Him Through Business. William, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Darren. What is the fourth bottom line? And you and you probably want to start with what the first three bottom lines are for those who might not be familiar.
SPEAKER_02Well, we're all very familiar with the first bottom line. We were all raised on Milton Friedman, and uh the purpose of a corporation is to uh increase shareholder wealth uh through net income, through profit. We're all very familiar with that. Really, over the past 25 years or so, the concept of triple bottom line uh is is becoming familiar or corporate social responsibility. Um so the the notion that a corporation can not only make profit, but somehow also help people and planet. Uh so for example, uh if you look at the Fortune 500 day today, 395 of the 500 actually produce a corporate social responsibility report, uh reporting the bottom line on the people and uh planet dimension. Um I like Walmarts because I know the guy or know a fellow who's in their sustainability program. Uh, but if you pick up the Walmart sustainability report, it's actually bigger than the financial report, the financial annual report. So some of the companies are taking this pretty seriously.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So profit, people, and planet. And and so there's a fourth bottom line that that you've introduced. What do you what do you term that?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, I call that praise. And so the question, and it's it's really a question now because it's it's something that most corporations haven't addressed, but um we we Christians want to in all things praise God. So that's not just church, that's not just the offering plate, that's not just social activities. You know, why why wouldn't we spend where we spend most of our day praising God? And and and what really does that mean? Does uh can you make a profit to praise God? Can you serve people to praise God? Can you uh help improve the planet to praise God? And that's that's really the question. Is there a way of um uh praising God, not in addition to business, but through business?
SPEAKER_01Now, is this like profit, people, planet, is this something that you think companies ought to measure or that some companies actually are already measuring in some quantifiable way?
SPEAKER_02Uh quantifying praise is a tough thing to do. Yeah. Uh uh I have not seen I one of the things that as I as I build the business program at Sattler, one of the things that I want to do is is uh develop better ways of measuring praise. But honestly, uh I think a key a key point of the message about the fourth bottom line is why does it even have to be a different bottom line? Uh it's it's certainly possible to make money as a way of praising God. Uh so you can make money as a way of of detracting from God too, but if you look at companies, uh I'll just draw on Chick-fil-A as an example. Uh I think everybody understands that Chick-fil-A stands for praise to God. And um and they get themselves in trouble in the news from time to time, but there's no question that if Chick-fil-A makes a profit, um, that profit is honoring God. If Chick-fil-A helps its employees in some way, that's a way of praising God. If if Chick-fil-A uh switches from uh activities that degrade the planet to activities with sustain and promote the planet, that is a way of praising God. And uh the difference is not wholly different activities, but it's a different focus. So uh what we need to measure as we think about uh profit is um what are the kinds of activities that we see within a company uh that reflect that praiseworthiness, that reflect reflect that praise? Um so and which gets really back to the question is how do you praise God through a corporation? And and uh you know, I I've been giving that a lot of thought. One of the first answers I came up with is who in the world would pray for their competition but a Christian. So is there a way to understand uh at the start, let's start at the personal level, how often do I really pray for my competition versus try to beat them to death? Um and and getting that up to a more corporate level is is much more difficult, of course.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, and and so that's one of the the things that you teach in this article is to combine competition and service. And you say that Christians praise God when they respect, pray for, and honor their competitors, just as Jesus told us to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So are are ought we to think of our competitors as enemies in that sense?
SPEAKER_02Um I think it's applicable. I think there are enemies. I I think they're out to beat us in the same way we're out to beat them in a certain way. Uh and I think that modern um western uh free market capitalism is built on a notion of competition, but competition uh doesn't have to mean hate, it doesn't have to mean that you wish your enemy uh ill. Uh it it can mean that uh you lift them up to the Lord. Uh just in the same way sports teams have figured out that you can pray for your opponent, uh or or some Christian sports players have figured that out. Uh businessmen can do that too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So how what would be um a way to pray? How ought we to pray for our competitors, would you say?
SPEAKER_02When I send out a uh request, when I send out a proposal to a company to do work, um, of course I ask God that I win. But um I also ask God that the best be done for uh the company that I'm um proposing to. And uh I would like to think, and I probably don't do it enough, and and uh I'm sure your your listeners can can uh uh join me in thinking this way, that uh I would like to think that every time I faced uh my competition in some way, that you know, sort of just as Paul prayed uh continuously, I would like to be uh in a situation where I'm never far from asking God to bless my uh the companies that I'm uh proposing against or competing against in the marketplace. But I I I think that um praying for competitors is is one way, uh, another way is acknowledging God. And how many companies um um uh recognize, how many companies would the marketplace say, oh, that's the Christian company? Uh another one of my favorite examples is a company Service Master. Uh lots of folks have probably seen their trucks running around. Uh they've grown grown from a startup to a multi-billion dollar company. And the founder of Service Master named his company Service Master. I don't know how many people know this, because he wanted to build a company that was in service to the master. It is an avowedly Christian company, or what was originally, it's been since since sold to a private equity firm. But there was just no question from the very name of the company that uh that uh he was acknowledging God in the in the in in his decisions and in his successes as well as his failures.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How about how about fulfilling God's kingdom on earth? That's one of the principles that you teach, the characteristics of a fourth bottom line company. How can businesses fulfill God's kingdom on earth?
SPEAKER_02Um so the notion of business is that we do good things for our customers. We make we sell product that's attractive to a customer. That's the very notion. Uh it's the best tool for doing that ever created, you know, compared to any other type of economy that's ever been created. Uh so every time we make food, make a product that's value to valuable to a customer, um uh uh we're praising God. And I like to compare it to the the um uh parable of the sower, uh where um the um seed that falls on good soil grows. And and basically we can uh either uh run business in a flash in the pan way, like seed that was uh sown on the thin soil, or we can run our business for longer-term profit, for longer-term impact, uh, in the way that the seed that was sown on the on the deeper soil. Um another one of my favorite examples, quite frankly, is the parable of the of the talents, of the of, or is in one of the Bible translations I have says the bags of gold. And remember the uh the rich man leaves and leaves some bags of gold or talents with his uh with his uh servants and came back later and and one of them had done really well, had invested well, and had made a profit, and and he rewarded him well. Uh another one had done poorly, uh and he called him an wicked, an evil servant. And I just don't want God to be saying, I gave you the most beautiful planet I ever created, and you wicked servant, you left it worse than than I gave it to you. Uh so frankly, there's another you're talking about measurement, uh, there's another aspect of measuring the way we praise God. We praise God when we honor the bags of gold he has given us, when he honors the people that he has given us uh to be charged over, the the people who work for us. And um, to the extent that we measure how well we treat our people, measure uh the uh the strength of the families we're helping to create among our employees, to the extent that we measure the carbon footprint of our organization, the amount of waste we produce and and dump into the to the rivers and atmosphere, um, these are ways that we can say uh, God, we're trying to return more bags of gold than you gave us. We're trying to um uh do a better job investing than the wicked and evil servant.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really good. And another characteristic that you talk about of uh fourth bottom line companies is that they provide daily bread. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_02Um so the whole purpose of a company is to um is to uh do good things for customers. Yeah, c companies aren't really in business to make money for their shareholders, that's an outcome. They're really in business to provide bread or bagels or automobiles or things that that customers need and use. Um so the the question is what are we doing with our business time? Are we producing daily bread or are we producing smut? We're producing garbage. And um I'm proud to be working in a college that is producing uh uh new folks that will enter into the business world and be effective Christian businessmen. Uh uh before I worked in a consulting firm and I was very proud of the fact that I was helping companies, uh most recently I was working with government agencies to help them do better service, measure the service better at a lower cost to the taxpayers. And if if you're in a business where you wouldn't brag to God that you're in that business, then maybe you need to think about how to tweak that business. Because if you're not providing daily bread, if you're providing scorpions, again to draw on Jesus' analogy, um, then um think about whether you're providing the right thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And and you went as far as to say that some business leaders are like, as in uh Jesus says in John 10 10, they're like the thief who comes only to steal, kill, and destroy. They pursue profit and wealth at the cost of others. Um have have you seen a lot of this in your career?
SPEAKER_02Oh yes. Uh we all have, and I, you know, I don't I don't really want to get into pointing fingers because uh because we've all seen examples of companies that uh are run by businessmen who think um only of profit. Uh and um perhaps perhaps one of the most personal ways, I like to make this personal, you know, because we're we're business, I assume you're you know, I'm talking to business leaders here, and there's a problem among business leaders that uh many of them uh are paying themselves too much, and you wind up with a hundred or even a thousand times difference in the pay to see chief executives versus the pay to the front line. And I'm I'm all for paying people whatever they're worth. You know, I have nothing against paying people lots of money, but I think dropping back and saying, What am I doing to my company? Am I building up my company or am I taking for myself? And um if if I had to report to God that I paid myself um a hundred times or a thousand times what I was paying my individual employees, I I don't think he would say, Well done, good and faithful servant.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02I I think that would be a way to measure am I praising God in the way I'm running my business.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, that's that's a big issue, this income inequality. And um, you know, as we looking to government to fix it, I don't think is is necessarily the even the biggest part of the equation. I mean, it really has to come down to heart changes in business leaders. Yeah, it's not just enough to say, well, I I didn't break the law, um, you know, but but there's there's a higher standard, right? And that's what we Christians are called to do in business, is to set the standard. That's what disciple making is all about. Uh, you you mentioned that the purpose of business is to um is to provide value to to customers. Um, is that how how do you really can you unpack really what what is the prior, if it's not to maximize value for shareholders, what is the core purpose of business?
SPEAKER_02Um, that's a great question. I'm gonna take just a little bit of a step back because it helps me understand the purpose of business, to understand that at 1800, the US only had about 20 corporations. This idea of a corporation is a brand new concept. People like to think, well, free enterprise has always been around. Well, not quite like we see it today. And um as the power, but so by the end of the 18th century, there were tens of thousands of corporations in the U.S. So this is an 18th century, 19th century development, 1800s development. And and it developed in a time when there was a lot of need for financial capital. So a corporation developed around the concept that it was really beholden to its investors, lots of times French investors, people who were remote and you needed to be accountable and you needed to pay them their money. That worked really well for those investors, but already by the beginning of the 20th century, you were getting pushback from labor saying, you know, wait a minute, you know, Upton Sinclair the Jungle, one of my favorite books, you know, uh uh corporations treating people really, really badly, labor unions uh uh propped up during that uh time period. And and what what was missing in the way that new entity was created, the corporation, was a reflection of the fact that people uh are an important part of uh the the responsibility of a corporation. Um and the same thing with planet. I grew up in the 1960s and Earth Day and uh really a violent reaction to corporations using uh the planet, using our rivers. I remember when the uh the Erie River started burning uh because they dumped so much chemicals in it. And and uh so um the purpose of the corporation uh in 1919, when when the board sued Ford Motor Company, the the Supreme Court of Michigan said the purpose of a corporation is only to increase shareholder wealth. Well, that's not true anymore. The corporate social responsibility movement, I mean I think the millennials really are teaching us uh boomers, uh something that we didn't figure out for ourselves, that corporations are in fact uh responsible for uh the soul of the entity as as they were before the corporation was ever created. So um that that's a very long answer to a to a to a complex question, which has been debated in many, many ways over the years. But I think in the past 25 years, uh most people have come to understand that uh the corporation must be for more than just increasing shareholder wealth, that it must have a soul as well. That if we let the corporations uh run the world for short-term profit, we will chop down the rainforests, uh, we will overfish the seas, we will uh cut down the last first growth trimble. That that will be what happened because that's that's what will happen. Um now, in the the 20th century response was, as you say, to let government do it. Uh, you know, create the SEC to manage company finances, create the EPA, create all these various organizations. But honestly, trying to manage it from the outside is like trying to regulate morality. Um corporations, companies need to have an internal morality. They need to have a moral compass of their own. Uh, we can't rely on government to do that because it just is we've proved that it just doesn't work. And then you get political uh tides ebbing and and you know uh and flowing, and and you know, one one uh uh administration goes one direction, another administration goes another direction, and there's no consistency, and there's no there's no purpose. And and I guess the at the core of what I'm saying is um Christians running companies can create that moral compass within companies just as we uh are the salt of the earth outside companies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the so the purpose of business, if you had to really distill it down, you know, into something like maximize shareholder value, what would it what would it be?
SPEAKER_02The purpose of business is to organize people. Finances and equipment in a way that works and makes the world better. It makes the world better because it pays shareholders who, by the way, loan them the money to make that all happen. It makes the world better because it um improves the planet and because it um uh creates a better uh society for us all. But I think for Christians it has one more purpose, and that is it's a way to demonstrate uh 10 hours a day rather than one hour a week, uh, that we are so thankful to our God for giving us for in for investing in us uh the resources we have to work with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So some examples of quadruple bottom line companies. Who who's one of your favorites?
SPEAKER_02Um well, I mentioned Service Master. I just love that company. And uh anybody, anybody who's interested should should have a look at them. Uh there's no question that that they became known as a company which served God and made a lot of money uh uh uh and uh in a way that praised God. Um there are a number of private equity firms that I mentioned in the article uh today that um um uh invest to serve God. But but I think the thing that excites me the most is again a worldly effort, but we can add praise to it, and that's the B Corporation. Uh did you know there are actually 2,500 B Corporations? Now a B Corporation, not everybody is familiar with that term. Uh it's not like a separate legal entity like a C corporation or a partnership or an LLC. It's rather a promise that the company makes to um honor uh planet people, and we're gonna figure out a way to make them add praise as well. Uh so uh companies like Patagonia, Tom's of Maine, uh uh Ben and Jerry's, you know, so big companies, uh lots of little companies, uh make a commitment to the triple bottom line. Uh I'm teaching my students, and I hope Sattler can be part of uh creating, I don't know, maybe it's a P Corporation, a praise corporation, uh kind of the next step beyond uh B Corporation, but I'm just delighted to see uh the B Corporation uh grow by 10 or 15, the number of B Corporations to grow by 10 or 15% every year.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, that would certainly be exciting. Uh well, William, you've given us a lot to think about and um and thank you for the work you're doing and for for uh pouring your your heart and expertise into this research. Sattlercollege.org, S-A-T-T-L-E-R, college.org is the place to go to learn more about William and the the great things that are happening there. This is a relatively new uh institution, um, but obviously they're they're they're on moving on the cutting edge of of some of these topics that we're talking about. And uh you can also connect with him on LinkedIn, uh William Oliver again. And um as we wrap it up, William, any parting advice for our Christian business professionals today?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm reading a book right now called uh um it's about the question, not the answer. I don't think any of us, uh certainly not me, and I'm I bet your listeners don't have the answers of how to praise God in business, but it's all about the question. It's all about uh uh admitting that that's a responsibility, uh turning to God, looking for the Holy Spirit to teach you, to answer the question, how Lord, can I praise you through my uh work and business?
SPEAKER_01Well said. So keep, you know, as much as we want to have those queer, you know, metrics and and everything for measuring this, the question is, what does what would it look like? Uh what does it what does it look like to praise God through our work and business? Uh so William, thanks again for your uh your expertise, your wisdom, your time today. We're we're all better for it.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you, Darren, and I appreciate the opportunity.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.