Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Shear, an initiative of the R.W. Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all fishes of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast. On this episode, we're joined by Dave Cale, a good friend of mine. And we actually did uh an episode, uh, several episodes back called What Did Businesses Look Like in Biblical Times? So I think you'll find if you've listened to that episode, I would recommend going back and listening to that for sure. Um, but this is going to be sort of a part two of that interview. Dave Cale is the author of The Good Book on Business, an exploration of the Bible on business. He has been a Bible teacher, elder, house church leader, short-term missionary, and Christian executive roundtable leader. For 30 years, he has been one of the world's leading authorities on sales and sales systems. In that regard, he has spoken in 47 states and 11 countries and has authored now 13 books, which have been translated into eight languages and are available in 20 plus countries. And you can learn more about Dave at DaveKale.com. And his last name is spelled K-A-H-L-E. Dave, thanks again for joining us.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's always an honor, uh, Darren. So thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01So just uh kind of a a recap of our previous interview, you introduced a concept that I really had not heard before. Uh you you introduced me to it, but this concept of the household, the biblical household as a business entity. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I mean uh the biblical household was the business model in uh you know in the early days of of mankind and actually all the way through the New Testament. And and the household was an economic entity that uh consisted of, of course, the the uh head of the household, but also his family, extended family, but also uh servants and slaves and employees. And um it it was it was the not only how business would uh was done, but it was the economic uh basis of society. I mean society began with households uh and and kind of uh evolved from there. So a household is a is a unit, an economic unit comprised of individuals and uh against uh slaves, servants, employees, extended family who work together for some economic, for the economic well-being of everybody in the household. And uh, you know, when uh sometimes you know we we we just kind of gloss over scriptures and uh and then we come back to it and see it in a different light. And where where the you know where the light came on for me was uh reading in Genesis uh the story of Abraham, who as you recall, uh Lot was captured, Lot and his family was captured, and Abraham is gonna uh gather a group to go get him. And uh and the Bible says, and and Abraham gathered 318 trained men who had been born in his household and went off after Lot. I thought, hey, wait a minute. 318 trained men who had been born in his household. How big was his household? And I and and then you know that just opened opened uh my eyes to see how uh big an issue households or i.e. biblical businesses were in the biblical story. You know, uh we we hear a lot that uh well uh Abraham's household uh a household is a family, but in this particular case, Abraham's household, I mean what how big was his family at this point in time? Well, he had he had no children at this point. I mean he he had his his wife, but no children. So and yet he had a household that was able to produce 318 trained men. How many untrained men? How many women and children? How many too old, too young? Obviously, he had a business that extended into the thousands. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so the the argument of, well, you know, I'm just running my business to take care of my family, you know, and referring to your maybe uh your spouse and and a couple of kids isn't the biblical model. Because when when you think about the business as your household as a business, I mean, the people that work in your company, if you're a business owner or or or not just if you own the company, but if you have any responsibility for anyone and anything in your in your organization, I mean, are you saying to view that as part of your household?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Sure. Sure. So so uh, you know, so I use the words household and biblical business in interchangeably.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02They're to me, they're they're they're uh there's the same same idea.
SPEAKER_01And somebody might be saying, well, that's that that was Abraham's Old Testament. What about Lydia?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Tell us about Lydia.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so this so uh again, the the issue of uh biblical household or biblical business is a theme that runs throughout the entire Bible from the from the very beginning to the very end. And in the New Testament, we see we see the role of households or biblical businesses in the in the growth and expansion of the early church. And there are uh four different uh examples of households uh being converted to Christ all at one time, everyone in the household. So there's so Lydia is is a great example. As we know, Lydia was a business person. Bible says she had a business uh selling in purple. I I don't know if that's just dye or fabric or whatever, but that was her business and she had a household. So using our definition, that means that uh she had uh probably family and uh servants and slaves and employees who worked with her in this business. And when she encountered uh the apostles uh preaching the gospel, she she uh uh was converted, was baptized, and her entire household was as well. So the so what happened, and that was that's one of four examples in the uh in the New Testament where an entire household follows the lead of the head of the household and converts to Christ in mass. And what's what's interesting about that is this was this was uh one of the primary means for the expansion of of the uh of the New Testament church. The apostles found groups, and those groups were households. And because of the closeness and the culture in the households, the people who were in the household uh followed the leader in converting to Christ. So we see so we see that as a theme. Again, it's it's not just once. I mean, it occurs over and over again, several different occasions, where the entire household uh was converted, and that was you know, gave grave uh uh like uh injected fuel into the fire that was the growing, the growing church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And for given that I'm sure there was at least one person that was kind of a rebellious, like I don't my my parents believe this, and so I'm not gonna convert to your God, but it it wasn't really probably an option, right? For a lot of these people in these households, like in Cornelius' household, how everyone uh got saved there, and Lydia, everyone got saved there. Um, what is what does this look like in our 21st century uh um context where there is there is more freedom and the and there's um you know HR laws regarding uh discrimination in the workplace due to religion or or or anything else? What are what are are we talking about corporate culture and and how do you what what is it that how does this translate?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're we're we're very you're exactly right, uh Darren. We're very specifically talking about culture. And yeah, when you look back at those examples, of of course, there was a uh sort of an expectation uh of the times that put pressure on people to follow the lead of the of the uh owner of the household, the head of the household. But at the same time, there had to have been an incredible amount of respect on the part of the employees and and uh members of the household for the head of the business to say, well, since you do it, we we're we're going to two. And that that translates to me in 21st century uh Western society as a uh culture, as as a business culture. And I think that's a challenge to Christian business people in in this world is suppose you could create a culture such that if you said, guys, I'm gonna convert to Christ, many of them would say, Well, since you are, we are too. Wow. I mean what what what kind of a relationship would have to have been established for that to transpire that way? I mean it it it would be it would be a culture and a relationship between the head and the others in the household that that really would eclipse what you know what we what we uh uh hope for today. But I think it's I think it's an an ideal to strive for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and and while it is an ideal, the consequences of making that kind of a cultural shift where you're just going all in for Jesus with your company might not always have uh a positive outcome in terms of ROI. I mean, we've had some several stories shared on this podcast uh where the the owner got saved and implemented a lot of these things like corporate chaplaincy and prayer in the business. And I mean, some people might leave your company, right? I mean some because it's not like in the case of probably with with Lydia and some of these first century Christians, where there was a lot more one, there's probably more of a communal um approach to working, right? I mean, it wasn't just me and my career, but but then just the the power that was held by these business business owners and household uh leaders was probably a lot stronger than it is today. I don't know, I don't know for sure, but what are some of the the pri you talk about an acknowledging God in your foundational documents as a way to instill and provide a foundation and a North Star for this type of this type of a culture? What how do we do that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I you know, it's a it's it is uh it's a commonly uh uh understood best practice that uh we should have uh a mission statement, uh a vision statement, a value statement, you know, as as what I call the foundational documents of a business. They they put the foundation in place, and uh all all of the decisions of the business are then compared to those documents uh so that they stay they stay within the vision and the mission and the values of the owner or the head, the head of the business. And that's uh perfectly appropriate and it's and it's a best practice. You know, there's there have been studies that show businesses with mission statements do better than those without it, and so on. So it's a best practice, well established. My my issue is that if we're going to be a Christian business, then we need to acknowledge God in those documents as as of it's part of the foundation upon which this business is built. And uh, you know, there's there's lots of different ways to do that. That's up to that's up to the individual and the interaction with the Holy Spirit to come up with a with a way to do that. But I I I think that if you're gonna if you're gonna be a Christian in business, if you're gonna own a business, you know, or have uh have influence on a business, that one of the places that you begin is to include an acknowledgement of God's uh role in the business in those foundational statements. Now, in my own case, you know, I did this, I'm dating myself here, but I I did a uh a mission statement, vision statement, and a value statement in 1994. And uh and uh in the in the mission statement, I said, we are you know this business is is uh owned and dedicated to God. We want to be, we want to be in everything that we do, we're gonna seek to be in the center of his will. And and then I went on from there. But uh that document was given to everybody who interviewed for it interviewed for a position, you know, and it was so as part of our interview documents, it was part of our um uh employee orientation documents, you know, everybody got that. And I did, you know, I didn't have to beat it to death, I just said, here's who we are. You need to know who we are, here's who we are. And if and if and if that uh if you have problems with that, it's okay, you can go elsewhere. But if but you need to know who we are. And that's um, you know, I I think that's essential. I mean, that's that's a foundational step in being a Christian business person in in our world today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Excellent. And embedding prayer disciplines into the business is another thing you talk about. And by the way, you have uh put this into an ebook that's available. Can you just give everyone the title of that book and and how they can get it before we move forward?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Seven seven key initiatives to transform your business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Seven key initiatives. And uh the webpage is coming up, I think, this week, and we'll we'll have a webpage. But it but uh you'll be able to find it uh by uh going to DaveKale.com and we'll we'll have you know we'll have places there. But anyway, it'll be a free download. But uh yeah, back to back to uh so uh so I have a number of different key initiatives. Uh one of them we've just mentioned that is uh acknowledge God in your foundational documents. Another is is quote, you know, embed prayer disciplines into your business practices. So every, you know, every word, I'm a I'm a wordsmith, so every word's got meaning. Embed prayer disciplines. So okay, what are prayer disciplines? Well, they're they're disciplines, you know. The the Christian life is a is a life of discipline, among other things. And there are things you do, uh, you make a commitment to do, and then you continue to do those things regardless of the situation or the or the uh ebb and flow of circumstances. And so uh embedding prayer disciplines, and I have some very specific examples. Now, that doesn't mean you tell everybody we're all gonna pray. No, no, no, no. It it means that you embed certain disciplines. So um I uh I would recommend that you seek out uh others in your business, uh employees or leaders or someone, and invite them uh to a regular uh prayer time. And uh in my little business, you know, I I never had more than uh seven or eight employees, uh, but my my head of customer service and I was a was a committed Christian, and he and I would meet together at 7:30 on Monday morning, and we would we would pray every Monday for the week before business hours began. So it wasn't, you know, it didn't impinge on anybody, but they were but uh he was invited to join with me. And so that's a thing you can do. Invite uh other Christians, it's you know, it's not for everybody, to join with you in a regular time of lifting up to the Lord the issues that you're facing and the challenges and decisions you have to make. So that's that's one of the disciplines. Another discipline is to seek, personally seek. So I you know, let me go back a little bit. I'm a b I'm a believer in the role of a leader is to lead. And um I, you know, I I generally don't like um key decisions to be made by others. I think I think key decisions are the role of the owner. And so uh the key direction for the business, the mission, the vision, the values, those are those are ownership's responsibility. And so uh one of the disciplines is to seek uh the Holy Spirit's involvement in all the key decisions of the business. And that that's um that's not an event. That is a discipline that uh that you grow into over time and and the the words I use is uh seek to go from uh request to conversation. So at so at some point you grow so close to the Holy Spirit in your discussion about his business that he's allowed you to run that that it's a conversation. And that conversation is a regular conversation. You I mean the owner has a regular conversation as part of his discipline with the Holy Spirit about about the direction and decisions uh for the business. So that's another. Here's one more. People find this to be kind of interesting, and that is to uh to uh over time acquire a prayer team. So I I have a prayer team, and and basically what this means is uh from time to time I run across people who appear to me to be intercessors, have the ability to intercede for people, and I'll ask them would you would you consider taking one day a week and praying for this business? And so I have a I have a group of people one for Monday, one, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday through Friday, um who are committed to pray for the business. And this so this forces me into a discipline of every s every Saturday morning I send out a prayer list. These are the issues we're facing, here's the decisions we're making, these are the things we're doing this week, and uh the prayer list goes Saturday morning to all the prayer warriors, and and uh it is my expectation that each is praying uh on their day for the issues of the business.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah, so powerful, you know, and even if you're not running the company, I I remember going one time, actually I I've been twice, there's a prayer meeting that happens at the UN. So these are not people who are uh uh in charge of the U. They're not the the president of the UN per se, but they have they have authority, they have responsibilities uh for their nation in the UN and they meet these these Christian brothers and sisters from all over the world, meet in uh a little break room there at the UN and New York City for prayer uh every week, and and they worship together. And so, you know, even if you're in one of those big organizations or an organization where the owner doesn't have this kind of ideology approach to business that Dave is talking about, you have an opportunity to still gather with with other believers. I did the same thing when I was in the military, you know. When I first came in, I was thinking, you know, I had that Elijah complex of, oh, there's no one, there's no other Christians here, you know, and because I was kind of used to the bubble that I had just come from. And and then the Lord spoke to me and where where Jesus speaks to Paul in the red letters when he comes into Corinth and says, do not be afraid, for I have many in this in this city. Because Paul was thinking the same thing that you know there's uh there's just so much wickedness and and nobody loves God, and nobody's even interested in God. And um, and you know, and just finding finding he will sh will lead you to those other believers because they're because they're everywhere. Um we're everywhere.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So uh so here's a little story that just confirms that. Uh, you know, we were uh we all recall the uh events of 9-11, and um I at that time my office was in a uh office building downtown Grand Rapids. We it was a six or seven-story building, had a big atrium in the middle. But uh I was on the second floor, and you know, you you'd you'd say hello to people in the elevator, but you know, you don't really know anybody. And there's there's a couple hundred people maybe that work in that building. So uh after 9 11, I just just felt the need. Uh so that in we had a basement, a basement was a public area. And uh so I just sent out so I did up a little brochure, a little uh flyer, and put it on every office door that said, Hey, on Monday or Tuesday, whatever day it is, at noon, I'm gonna be leading. a prayer session in the basement at 12 o'clock. You're welcome. And uh, you know, I thought maybe we'd get two or three people. Honestly, there was over a hundred people out of the out of the out of the people in that building who I didn't even know who showed up to be to pray. And you know the the the the the there's a little there's a lesson in that that very specific to what we're talking about here. And that is the role of leadership to to to go first to say I'm doing this please join me. The world is full of people looking for somebody to do that and business people are particularly well suited for that because they are already leading they are already uh viewed with uh respect and uh viewed as people who are very capable and so it's the natural it's it it's incumbent in that position that they use that leadership visibility and respect that they have to lead people towards Christ as well.
SPEAKER_01And the world is full of people who will follow them as is the example in the Bible of Lydia and Cornelius and you know these the heads of the the uh uh jailer you know his whole household so there's a there is a there's a role for Christian business people to go first and set the stage and be the leader and galvanize people because you already have that yeah so good and by the way my uh my five year old you probably just overheard uh he came and said daddy are you done he's knocking on the door so our our listeners you know have been listening to this show from uh have have probably heard from time to time some little kids in the background but um they they're they're very gracious and they uh they try to keep it quiet but sometimes we have those uh those moments there so but so powerful the just making prayer the I mean that's that's our that's our the way we talk to God that's what how we hear from God. I mean I I heard a great quote that prayer is your spiritual breathing. I mean how about if we thought about approaching our business that way that that there's no life in the company there's no life and and and true uh spiritual insight into our business decisions is aside from from prayer. And I love that you're helping us to be intentional about that. Something else you talk about in this uh in this book which it's amazing that you're giving away the this for free uh but but one of the other things you talk about is is goal setting and I was struck by a passage there in that particular chapter where you said that when you asked one business owner about setting goals, she replied we are a Christian organization. We don't believe in setting goals but instead we react to the opportunities that God brings to us. But what do you think about that approach?
SPEAKER_02Well you know when I I when I was when I came across that it was a phone call where I was interviewing a number of CEOs for a consulting project and it stunned me. I like I I never considered that I would uh because I had come out of this world of goal setting and so on and and so uh honestly it floored me I I I I'd never heard that and I gave it some thought and and since then I've really given that whole thing a lot of a lot of thought and I and I've written pretty extensively on it. I have a number of uh blog posts and podcasts on that issue of goal setting sh and and the question is should a Christian business set goals? And my answer is maybe and when I say say maybe I'd say uh if if the goals are uh uh as a result of communication and conversation with the Holy Spirit and and you and he's given the you those very specific goals then okay but I have I have another concept that I think is is more uh applicable and that's a concept I call FOFS F-O-F-S and that stands for focus on first focus on first so what uh again you know I'm like so I'm a guy who's really thought deeply about goals because I teach it in sales management classes I teach in sales classes I teach in business people it's it's been a part of my routine so I had to so I had to really dig deeply into it and uh one of the reasons you set goals honestly and and uh I I know this this is going to sound like uh really off the wall but you don't set goals to meet the goals one of the reasons you set goals is to go through the process of winnowing through all the possibilities and determining what's most important. And what's most important in a business typically becomes quantifiable and turned into a goal. And uh you know I'm a great believer in in in the use of quantifiable goals in certain places and and and so on. I just wonder whether a quantifiable goal doesn't limit God in in saying Lord if we want a 10% increase well what if you want you to have 15? You know so so uh so again uh the issue here is it one of the purposes of setting a goal is to go through the process of prioritizing what is most important. And typically what's most important turns into goals. I'm saying let's let's think about this a little bit differently and turn it into a FAF which is a focus on first. In other words I'm gonna like so in my business you know we we uh we create uh online training programs for salespeople for the most part and so so I can say I well Lord uh we're gonna have a 10% increase in sales of this product category I'd rather say Lord we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna focus first on increasing the sales in that category and we would love for you to uh be a part of that and and we think that you're directing us to do that and so what uh so uh a faux off is maybe uh five or six at a time you say these are the five or six things we're gonna focus on first and and when we feel that we're we're done with one of them then we add it then we add another one and it's not a matter of a quantifiable goal which there's a little me that's a little bit of me that says I don't know that I want to tell God what I want to do. I want to have him tell me what I should do you know and so there's a little bit of that in the whole goal setting thing yeah and you know it's it's um I do I believe in the process yes do I believe in identifying things to focus on absolutely you know in this uh time time management demands us to prioritize and focus on that which is highest priority most effective so there's a whole I mean we've I've got a whole body of content around that and uh I I'm just uh uh uh the uh the identification of what to focus on in your business is absolutely a best practice now whether that takes the form of a quantifiable goal that's a different story yeah yeah but comes down goes back to prayer and having the right foundation and the and just having that open line of communication with God right and yeah but it's it it is interesting in her statement she sort of implied that that setting goals and uh listening to God are mutually exclusive because maybe God will will give you I mean it it says in um Isaiah believe it is that a noble man makes noble plans and on noble plans he stands.
SPEAKER_01And and so it it is and and yeah like if you were um you know the children of Israel in the wilderness and you said we're gonna set a goal to build a a golden calf like that somebody set that goal right yeah yeah and and obviously it wasn't uh inspired from uh from the Lord so it's it really does come down to who are we uh dialed into.
SPEAKER_02Yeah exactly so I would say if if we say this is the goal God has given us great we say the goal God this is the goal we want to achieve that's a different thing you know so yeah it really comes down to uh communication and a conversation it's it it is his business and you're just running it you know so you ought to you ought to take his direction on what's the next what's the most important thing next you know what's what's what's what should we focus on first. Yeah yeah and uh you also you wrap it up talking about uh including the family and the business yeah yeah why did you why did you wrap it up with that instead of uh you know some other sort of call to action because because it's uh it's a um it's uh people don't think of that you know they think uh uh you know I want to uh build a spiritual powerhouse here or something like that and so I'm gonna build prayer okay got it acknowledge God got it you know and some of the other things but um one of the one of the things about a biblical household is that the family was very much involved and um one of the things that I've I've learned that over my over my years as being in business you know and and as a salesperson and uh consultant and trainer and so on for gee I'm gonna say about 50 years or so um one of the things I've involved is a business is a great place to uh involve the kids you know and the family and we saw that uh in the biblical households you know there there wasn't a like today we talk about finding balance between work and family and uh as as if they were mutually exclusive but in the in a biblical concept they're not mutually exclusive they're sort of incredibly intertwined and that's a mindset I mean we can change our mindset and say okay how can I get the family involved instead of thinking about family on one hand business on the other how can I meld those together and make the family a part and parcel of this biblical household this you know that happens to be a business how can I do that and uh you know I uh I I didn't come at it through scripture I came at it from a very practical perspective but I discovered that principle of bringing the family involved in in the business. So you know here's here's a couple little things that I did and do I have time I mean or am I going over here? So so for example during the summer I uh uh when I was selling as a salesperson I would take one of my kids with me for a day and I I had a day once every two weeks uh I mean I was for the most part selling in the city of Detroit I I wasn't gonna take them down in the in the heart of the city but but I I had a day when I uh had accounts I would go visit up in the thumb of Michigan and they would come with so I'd take each of them to come with me that day. It was a big day come with dad yeah put a suit and tie on you know had to put your best on we're gonna go to lunch together and you know and and you're gonna come in with me in my accounts and they're gonna you know they're gonna see you and you're gonna see them and uh it you know they just got a better idea what dad does for a living I think that was very important. Later when I was you know I'd do things like this um I think every I think every one of my children worked for me in the in the business in the in the uh uh what I call the sales authority business and so anything from uh creating websites and doing emails and that kind of thing for the more advanced to uh when the kids were small like we'd had letters of recommendations uh remember this so we'd get letters of recommendation for people and we uh hard copies and we'd send them as a packet you know when somebody was gonna hire me for a speaker we'd send a packet of these and uh what we wanted to do is highlight certain things on the letters of recommendation so this would be a photocopy of a letter from somebody and you know these three sentences we're gonna highlight so I had so I had one of my kids highlight them you know so hundreds of pages just highlight take a yellow marker and highlight this and you know that was a job and and uh made them part of the business and you know those are just a couple little things here there's a whole list of things about about ways that I brought my kids into the business but and I think the issue here is don't think of business and family as separate think how can you bring them together how can the how can the family be part of this business they're invested in it they understand they you know it I mean the the positive benefits that it brings is huge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah so think a little creatively and and Jesus got baptized but and Jesus also got discipled and where did he get discipled as a young as a young boy young man it was in his father's shop right I mean it was in it was in the family business and somebody might be thinking well probably a lot of people are thinking well I don't own the business and so uh you know that's nice Dave that you you were able to do that for your kids but I'm I'm an employee at a company well you're you're still self-employed you got one um one client that's your you know that's your the company you work for but there's still opportunities perhaps to bring in your kid to I mean staple papers there's yeah like oh exactly yeah exactly yeah yeah like anything anything that can be can be done it's not just uh you know from a utilitarian standpoint of like what how can they actually be useful but just bringing them in so that they can experience what uh what your life is like and and how you you know maybe while they're in their stapling papers that one of your coworkers will come over and your kids going to be watching to see how do you talk to that person. Exactly exactly just so many so many opportunities I love that you that you address that in this book.
SPEAKER_02Well Dave as we wrap it up here what's the best place for people to hear more from you and we'll have we will have the link to this um this ebook uh but davle dot com right k-a-h-l-e dot com anything else you want to direct our listeners to yeah so we have a couple we actually have three websites so the davekale.com is the granddaddy uh but um we have another website called the Biblical business resource center the biblical business resource center dot com and uh we have a lot of a lot of this uh these uh uh downloads and uh free things on the biblical business it is what it says it's a it's a resource center for biblical businesses so I'd I'd uh recommend people uh check that out and then uh on the on the uh sales side you know I'm again I've I've made my living for 30 years as what I call sales authority speaking and training and uh helping people sell better so uh a lot of our materials uh courses and things like that are at the Sales Resource Center dot com so the Biblical Business Resource Center the Sales Resource Center two separate websites for both of those and uh you know we so we have uh I have easines uh I write a lot so we have one for salespeople we have one for sales leaders we have one for Christian business people and uh if you go to the davale.com uh you'll find a place to sign up also have podcasts and I do a weekly podcast uh uh for the same three channels as well so there's lots of stuff out there yes indeed well everybody go check out those links in the show notes and uh Dave thank you so much it's it's always uh a pleasure chatting with you and uh always new insights uh you you challenge my thinking in in many ways and I appreciate you for that and I know our our audience is feeling the same way so appreciate you brother it's always an honor thank you Darren I I uh thank you for the uh opportunity and again I'm always encouraged by the conversation with you so thank you again we hope you've enjoyed this episode and if so we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes.
SPEAKER_00You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianitybusiness.com thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business