Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Scheer, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all features of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at ChristianityInbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01On this episode, we're joined by Grant Bottma. Grant is the founder of Stewardship and the leader of its nationally ranked team of top producers. Thanks to a thriving company culture, Grant's team has won numerous awards, including national performance rankings like top 1% and top 100. Grant's leadership has also grown stewardship to be an Inc. 5000, fastest growing company in America, one of those coveted awards by small businesses. And he's the author of the new book, which is actually coming out uh right at the pretty much the time of this recording. Title of that book is The Problem Isn't Their Paycheck: How to Attract Top Talent and Build a Thriving Company Culture. Grant, thanks for joining us today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm excited. It's gonna be a blast, Darren. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_01So, as far as I can tell, and and anyone who has uh come across your content on on uh YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, you're doing a great job of really educating people on uh personal finance. Um, but and as far as I can tell, you would consider yourself, uh your company to be a a Christian financial advisory firm. Am I correct in saying that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, uh, we're not a uh not-for-profit institution that is uh quote unquote doing vocational ministry. Yeah. Um, but myself and the other co-founders all have some sort of Bible college background. Uh, we're all believers, and uh, all of the uh basically our ethos of what we're doing, how we're doing it, uh is all taken directly from God's word. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's interesting as I've studied this faith and word movement, I find that a lot of companies are reluctant to kind of take on that label of we're a Christian company. And you know, there's that saying out there that there are no Christian companies, there are only Christians, and and then I'll say, you know, well, well, yeah, your your company might not be born again as a as an institution, like the brick and mortar is not going to heaven, uh we people go to heaven, but hopefully if you go to church, you go to a Christian church, right? It doesn't mean that everyone in the church building is going to heaven or that the brick and mortar is going to heaven, but it's just a lay a helpful label that we have to kind of understand the worldview. And I found that more than most industries and professions, it's become somewhat popular to market a company or oneself as a Christian financial advisor. Why do you think that is in this particular industry? Why do you think there are more and more? I think there's this network of Christian, actually, I know several networks of Christian financial advisors. What is it about personal finance that where where there seems to be a need for this?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that there's uh two different things that are happening. Uh, one is if we break down God's word, Jesus talked about money more than he talked about heaven or hell. And money was extremely important. And as you kind of break down why it was important, is because Jesus was smart. He loves us. And uh he really wants us to have amazing relationships. And he knows that sadly, money can hurt or prevent relationships. We know that money is the number one uh cause for divorce. You know, money fights are that. Um, money can impact relationships with children. Um, money can even impact your relationship with God. But the opposite is also true. Money can enhance a lot of those things as well. And uh it's because it's talked about so frequently in God's Word. I think that's why there are some companies out there who have decided to uh not shy away from the label of a Christian financial services firm. Um, the other portion of it is a kind of a new kind of phenomenon in popularity, which is basically called uh biblically responsible financial management. And this has to do with a couple of different things. One is your investments, right? So if you were uh have a retirement account, a 401k or an IRA, and um there are some funds in there, so you you are literally taking ownership of certain companies when you buy stock of companies. Most believers are not going to want to own stock in a company that does not align with their values. They may not want to buy or own stock in a hotel that has a large percentage of their profit from basically pornography that happens in their uh hotel rooms. Or maybe they don't want to own stock in a company that provides things to places like Planned Parenthood for abortions, things like that. Um, so that's one way, uh the biblically responsible investments, but then also, I think, biblically responsible health care options. The Affordable Care Act uh is a government-mandated thing that has uh required many of us to take on health insurance that um has our premiums paying for things that aren't necessarily outlined in the Bible as okay, right? Um, and uh providing additional options for people that align with their biblical values has become very important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, it how do you actually vet these companies? Because I mean, I as far as I know on Yahoo Finance for the prof profiles on these companies, they're not necessarily really making an effort to clarify the worldview held by the the majority shareholders in these companies. You know, typically it's how how is the what's the financial bottom line? How are they performing and looking at acquisitions and all these kinds of things? Like how are you able to uh as a Christian uh wealth advisor, how are you able to convince your uh your clients that you truly have vetted these companies and that their money is not going into something, into a company that is is is doing things that are not in agreement with their worldview?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's a lot easier than you would think, uh, mostly because, again, this has become something that's been popular. Uh the human brain is wired for purpose. Like we want to do things that make an impact. Um, and whether you're a believer or not, uh most people want their investments to do good in the world. The money that they're putting towards in their investments, they they they want to have positive things happen as a result of that. So there are a lot of different firms out there that provide research, that provide real data, that take people through questionnaires, entities through questionnaires to make sure that the investor and the investment company or that company or that mutual fund, those things align. Um so there's a lot of ways that are that you're able to do it. But for us, practically speaking, it has to do with partnering with other companies and entities that have the same worldview as us that are willing to ask some of these hard questions. And then we take the answers to those hard questions and we can put them together in reports and allow people to read through that, see that, and understand the real value that's happening.
SPEAKER_01So, what does that look like with what maybe give us one company or one fund? And like who do you who do you look to for that information? And then what is what what are some of the things that you would find in that assessment?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the things that you look for is um basically what the the why behind the company. Why does it exist? Um, businesses as a whole do not exist unless they have found a need in our community and they're filling that, right?
SPEAKER_01So this is easy with private companies, right? Like it's easier with private companies like Chick-fil-A, but with a publicly traded company, right, they don't necessarily always bring that to the forefront because they've got, especially when it comes to religion and things like that, because they don't want to upset any other shareholders. Uh so yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to just throw that in there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So, you know, some of them are more transparent and available with the information than others, right? Um, uh, but the ones that are have nothing to hide and are a lot more transparent with the information are the ones that are put into you know these particular mutual funds. Um, and and here's the really the good news about a lot of this stuff. It might sound weird, and people who are listening were like, uh, but what about my returns, right? Like, how's this going to impact my retirement? Like, well, this is a big deal uh for us. We we actually uh were able to interview one of the kind of leaders in this area. His name is Robert Netzley. He's actually even written a book on biblically responsible investing. We interviewed him on our podcast, and he was sharing statistics that that show that when there are funds and there are investment companies and entities that are genuinely putting moral authority um as a priority, they actually have better returns over time, you know? Um, and you might be able to find some quick wins uh in investing in other areas if you kind of put that moral side out of it. Um, but the most people are looking to invest for the long term. Um, you know, if you wanted a quick win and you didn't really care about moral stuff, you would give your money to drug cartels and they would probably get you a decent return, right? But that type of relationship and that type of uh uh need that they're filling, that what their business model is, isn't sustainable, right? And there's there's other things that are involved with it. But yeah, it really comes down to just finding that information of what is the need that they're filling in society and um what does that look like and how does that align with you as an investor or an individual in society with your values?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And this is really difficult to do when you're not picking single stocks, right? You're having to rely on these other uh agencies to to that are putting these funds because I mean a lot of the funds out there, right, they're gonna include like RJ Reynolds and you know, companies that probably are not going to, they're probably doing some things that aren't in alignment with the Christians uh worldview. So what is one of those organizations that you that you look to?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean you're you're 100% correct. Think about most people who are getting a 401k. Um you know, you when you're talking with your HR company, you're saying to yourself, oh, I either pick the conservative, the medium, or the growth model or whatever, right? And you have no idea what those companies are that are in that fund or if they do align with your values. Um yeah, there's there's uh you you have to be careful with that. You have to really try to understand what are the stocks, what are the the different entities or um things that I'm putting my money towards that are in this mutual fund. Because whenever you are investing, that's quite literally what you're doing. You are funding uh what this company is doing. So yeah, I mean, it's it's important to have that understanding. And and I mean, as far as like individual companies that are out there that are doing it, to be honest with you, there's a lot. There's a there's a lot for us to choose from. And as an investment advisor who is independent, um, we try to find that particular option that's gonna be best for that particular investor. Um, some people are a lot more conservative or draw harder lines with some of their um not just morals, but even things that they're passionate about. Because biblical responsible investing is more than just, hey, I don't want to invest in X, Y, and Z, but it also is I really like A, B, and C. I want to make sure I'm helping fund these types of things. So I want to make sure my money's going towards helping people, you know, build wells where people need water in different villages or you know, who are really working to try and uh cure cancer, whatever it is they're passionate about. So that's why there's no real one answer of like, yeah, just go check out this company here, Darren, and that'll help all your needs. Because it's it's more than just protecting what you don't want to invest in, it's also making sure that you're investing in the things you want to invest in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's great. I mean, because this boycott approach to Christianity is not really moving the needle. Uh, I love that approach of finding the companies that are getting it done in alignment with our Christian values. And so you're you're not only advising people on investment matters, but also on borrowing, lending, uh, debt matters. And so this is this issue of debt, as we know, is uh a kind of a hot button issue when we talk uh Christian personal finance. And and you you've said, and there's a post that I found on the internet where you said in a video that that uh a very prominent uh personal finance guru, Dave Ramsey, is wrong by saying debt is dumb, cash is king. And of course, many of our listeners could probably finish the rest of that statement because it's opener to pretty much all of his uh his episodes. What do you mean uh that that Dave is wrong? Because we're talking like papal authority and you know Christian personal finance. So what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, uh a prerequisite is is this. Look, I I have taught Financial Peace University in the past. I think it's a great program. Dave Ramsey's done a lot of awesome stuff, and I don't have a whole lot of bad things to say about him or his institution. Um, but I do not necessarily agree with that opening statement that he has. Debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off house is uh replacing the BMW as a status symbol of choice. Um, what he teaches in his financial peace university class is um helping people with their behaviors and understanding and managing and controlling your behaviors is a huge way uh to have some success and get peace with your finances. Well, if you start treating um inanimate objects and start giving them authority in your life, um, that could lead to non-financial peace. So saying that cash is or can be a king, or saying that debt can be dumb or smart, that's not wise because it's a moral. As he says in Financial Peace University, it's like a brick. A brick can be used to build a hospital, but you can also throw a window through it. The the thing that determines if the brick did good or did bad is the person right behind the brick. And that's the same of cash and that's the same of debt. Debt can be dangerous and it's like fire. And if you hold on to it for too long, you could get burnt. But if you contain fire and use it wisely, you can power engines. You know, that's why cars are going down the road, right? Uh, the same is true of cash. Cash, it it can be really great if you have a lot of it. Uh, but as we know in the parable of the talons, the the person who just put the cash in the ground, Jesus had some really strong words to say about that particular individual, right? Right. Um, so we need to understand that uh we cannot give uh credit to inanimate objects. We have to focus on our behaviors, we have to focus on our thought process because it's us that can do good or bad with these things. And more importantly, I just really have a problem with saying that uh the paid-off house is replacing the BMW of a status symbol of choice. I believe status symbols are unhealthy. And uh we should not um have our identity uh wrapped up into anything like a BMW or a paid-off house. Our identity should be in Christ Jesus and the things that we're doing or He's doing through us and the fruits of the Spirit that are lived out through us. Um look, if you've paid off your house, celebrate. That's a really big deal. It's really, really cool. And uh it should be celebrated, but it shouldn't be a status symbol.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So so you're uh you're a Bible scholar. What you went you studied uh Christian ministry and and also you double majored in Christian ministry and personal or business or was it personal finance?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I double-majored in Christian ministries and business administration, correct?
SPEAKER_01And business administration. So I so how do you square this with these passages like uh you will lend to many nations but borrow from none? And the borrower is slave to the lender. What what what are your is going into debt not unbiblical?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say uh context is how I uh square those. Uh one of the things that happens often in evangelical societies, we'll take portions of scripture and then say it and repeat it without context. Um, and it's not necessarily wise. Um, I mean, even the most uh famous piece of scripture of all time, John 3.16, uh, should likely often be said with uh John 3.17 afterwards, uh, which is talking about how Jesus didn't come here to judge us, right? And if we would be repeating John 3.17 after we say John 3.16, I think that would change the way that our society is seeing us now. So how do I square it? I square it with context. What is the author really saying? Why is it there in scriptural scripture? And what are the real words? The truth is, debt is something that was uh exhibited in scripture often. But the way that debt was done back then was actually through quote unquote slavery, servitude. Uh people would voluntarily uh admit themselves into servitude to somebody else uh to earn something. So if you wanted a piece of land uh and you didn't have the money for it, you would say, Hey, I would like this piece of land, uh, Mr. Landowner, and I am willing to work for you for X amount of years under your servitude, and after that period of time, then the land will be mine, and you can negotiate terms as to what you could do with that land as a result. And um, that type of arrangement and agreement is repeated many times in scripture. Uh so debt isn't necessarily something that is evil, and it's not something that says uh that is is you know like one of the seven deadly sins or is uh said by Jesus Himself that you should not be doing this. Um it's something that can and should be used wisely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well said. How else does your Bible school education influence your work as a financial advisor?
SPEAKER_02I think the biggest way that it influences uh my work, uh, not just as a financial advisor, but just my work in general, is that I believe work is worship. Um, many times people think that we have to work and toil the earth and all those things because of the fall of man. It's like we sinned, and as a result, now the earth sucks and we have to work, right? Uh but the truth is God created us to work prior to the fall. Uh, and God created us to worship. Uh, so as a result, work is worship. Um, a story that um I tell often is uh after graduating Bible college, I was kind of in a circle with a bunch of my other fellow graduates, and we were there with you know some family members and different things, and people, the the older family members were asking us, hey, you know, what are you guys gonna do with your education afterwards? And I told somebody, well, hey, I think I'm gonna start a finance company. And uh somebody responded with, Well, isn't that a waste of a Bible college degree? Aren't you gonna go be a missionary or a pastor, you know? And our society sadly has uh created uh this allure or this pedestal for vocational ministry. It's not necessarily healthy, not healthy on a number of different levels. One, because when uh people who have been working in vocational ministry should be working somewhere else or need to step out of that particular calling or particular vocation, they literally have more anxiety because they believe now what they're doing is not as important. Um and also if if you know you're not working in vocational ministry all too often, people separate who they are and how they think when they go to church on Sunday and say Wednesdays, but in the middle of the week at their office, well, it's quote unquote business, right? And uh it shouldn't be done that way. Work is worship, and I can argue that a person who's digging ditches throughout the week, that work, if done right with the right heart and the right mind, um, is more valuable to God, more important to our society than what a pastor does on Sundays on stage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I and I did this uh followed a similar path, went to business school and went to seminary. And when I explained this to uh this this person at I I think it was like a Rotary Club event, uh he said, Um, okay, so theology and business. So that must mean you're Gonna become a televangelist. And so he at least had some uh he at least I'm just glad he didn't say, Man, you just you're wasting that degree for going into business. He at least had some imagination. Um, so tell us about your new book, Grant. The problem isn't their paycheck, how to attract top talent and build a thriving company culture, right? Because this is so key in as a as a as a wealth advisory to attract the top talent, uh, just very smart people, as well that have your worldview. Um, what's this book about?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so this book uh is uh mostly about the uh paradigm shift that we as managers and leaders, um, and even people who are are looking for a place to work, um, that we need to have. Too often we believe that the primary motivation is money. Um, but there are three things that uh motivate us more than money. Those three things are freedom. Uh, we all want autonomy. Uh they are also affirmation. We want to be masters of a craft. We want to know if we're doing it right. Uh, and then lastly, purpose. We are created for purpose. And I believe that all entities should have a unified purpose that unifies a team together uh to actually do work that matters and make a positive impact. So the book is about that motivational hierarchy and how to apply that within your business. Um, and if you're not a business leader uh or manager, it's uh it gives you a way and an opportunity to kind of articulate uh things that you would want to see in your future employer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, excellent. And so people can pick up a copy of that uh on Amazon. And what's the best website for people to go?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they can go to culturecourse.com forward slash book, culturecourse.com forward slash book. Um that will uh provide a um web page where they can see a little bit about the book and learn a little bit about it with along with a link to how to purchase it on Amazon. Um, but yeah, I mean, as you mentioned before, if people just want to follow me on social media, I'm very active on on Instagram at Grant Botma, pretty much doing a uh Instagram story almost every day and posting just about every day as well. Uh so those are two great ways where people can get in contact with me or check more about the book.
SPEAKER_01How would you say this book is differentiated from the other culture type books that are out there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I would say uh it has a lot to do um with uh having intentional actions. A lot of us are have the best intentions. We we really want to be amazing leaders and managers and have an awesome culture. I don't know anybody who's like, no, I don't want to have a good culture, or no, I don't want to be a good manager, right? We all have the best intentions for that. This book helps you um create, schedule, and apply the intentional actions to back up those intentions. The best intentions require intentional actions. And uh this book uh helps outline what those actions should look like uh so that you can apply them and experience wins with them.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well, it's coming out uh on the 9th, correct?
SPEAKER_0219th, yeah, November 19th.
SPEAKER_01November 19th. Okay, so people will be hearing this episode probably right when it releases. So that's gonna be perfect. Great. Moneywellrooted.com is the website. Any other websites you want people to check out?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so our company website is moneywellrooted.com, and that will allow you to learn more about stewardship and how we help people with home loans, insurance, um, and investment advice with wisdom and love. And then uh culture course is where I, you know, have an online course that teaches people about company culture and they can learn about the book. But really, if if people just want to follow me on social media, again, I'm I'm giving out free content and information all the time, and I'm constantly engaging people and answering questions and direct messages. So feel free to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or or Facebook.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well, Grant, thanks for your time. Thanks for continuing to uh just honor the Lord and your work. We need more of this going on, and uh this there's definitely a movement that's been afoot uh where um and and exciting to see this happening in the in the financial advisory world and applying God's principles for finance. I mean, there was actually one a quote that I saw on article on your website, maybe it was an article that you wrote, but pointing out that uh the fear of the Lord is a beginning of wisdom. So when you're looking for uh a wealth advisor, you want somebody that has the fear of the Lord because that's the beginning of wisdom. If you want truly wise financial decisions and it's all found in God's word. Uh so Grant, we do thank you and uh may God continue to bless uh and and and prosper everything you're doing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Darren, thank you so much for having me on and really uh kudos to you. I'm grateful for you for having a podcast like this uh where you're uh willing to perpetuate information about the Bible, about God's word, about Christianity uh to the rest of your listeners and audience. It's an absolute honor to be on something like this, and uh grateful that you're creating an audience that can consume information like this. Super important. Thank you. Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianity and Business dot com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.