Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Shear, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all features of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_00On this episode, we're joined by Denise Daniels and Shannon Vandeworker, authors of the new book Working in the Presence of God: Spiritual Practices for Everyday Work. Denise Daniels is a professor of management at Seattle Pacific University, which is doing a lot of innovative things in this conversation about faith and work. She earned a PhD in organizational behavior from the University of Washington. Denise is the co-principal investigator on a $1.5 million research project funded by the Willie Endowment, examining how Christians in the United States understand and engage their faith at work. And she serves on the corporate board of a fintech company. And for those who aren't familiar with the uh, you know, the Silicon Valley Speak uh Financial Tech uh company on the board of two nonprofit organizations as well. Uh Shannon Vandeworker served in the Cascade Fellows Program at Fuller Seminary, where she designed theological studies and practical exercises to help disciples explore the integration of their everyday work with their discipleship. And she blogs on such things at Shannonvandeworker.com. And that's W-A-R-K-E-R, is the end of the of the name. And we'll get that in the show notes for you so you can click on over to it. Denise and Shannon, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Darren. It's good to be here.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Darren. Absolutely. I'll pitch this uh first one out to Denise. What is liturgy? This is not uh so this is something that you talk about in the book that really for me is kind of a theme uh for the book. What is liturgy and what does it have to do with the workplace?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think a lot of us have heard the term, and and many of us maybe may go to churches that have a liturgy or are more liturgical. Um and in that context, in a church context, a liturgy is just the kind of repetitive sequence of activity that you might go through in the course of a service. Um And so you might have a high church that has a very routine kind of uh practice in a service, which might be quite different from some other folks who have an experience with less liturgy in their church context. Um, what the way we are using the term certainly borrows from that notion of church, but it really is more focused on this idea of kind of what is the pattern of your life? What does your day, what what is the rhythm of your day? What is your what is your um activity like throughout the day? And how can you understand that activity and orient it in a way that lifts it up to God? And so we want that liturgical term to have a resonance with the church experience. But um for our purposes in this book, it really is talking about the rhythms of your life and what are those rhythms and how can you make sure that those rhythms are consistent with and oriented to um thinking about reflecting on and recognizing God's work in the world around you.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. Well, Shannon, why do you think liturgy has been confined to Sunday morning church services and even more specifically to very specific uh denominational uh you know can confines as well?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it goes back to that concept of the sacred secular divide, that um what is deemed as sacred has been um placed in in the church context. Um, and even in a high church context in some um Anglican, Episcopal, Catholic um settings, even Presbyterian settings. Um and so people have started to think of liturgy as oh, that that is separate, that is saved for Sunday morning, that is saved for a church service. And we really wanted to draw that out and um help people see that all of life is sacred, that there is no sacred secular divide, um, that God has um has deemed these really mundane, everyday, ordinary things as sacred, not because they're sacred in and of themselves, but because God's presence is there. And because God's presence is there, those things are made holy and made um, those everyday things are made sacred because we encounter God in them. And so as Denise talked about, um, we really are wanting people to see liturgy as something that can be lived out. It's not just something of going through the emotions in a in a church service context or sequential um context, but it can be your everyday, ordinary life can be lived out um in the presence of God in a sequential way to help you become more aware of maybe where you missed God, maybe where um God's presence hasn't become known to you yet, um, but can become known to you, even in those really ordinary um ways in the midst of your meetings and your emails and your commute and and all of those things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And this book, Working in the Presence of God, isn't just a theological book, it's it's a highly practical book, which really that's what theology ought to be is practical. I mean, if we can't apply it, it I mean, I don't know what what good it is. And one of the ways that you you you help people understand the practical application of liturgy is this concept of the liturgy of commute. What is that, uh, Denise or Shannon, whichever you want to take that?
SPEAKER_01I'll jump in. This is Denise. Um, so so the first chapter in their book is actually focused on a liturgy of commute. And Darren, you're right that we we were intending to write a very practical book. And so virtually every chapter is a different spiritual practice that you could engage in in the context of your work day that helps to reframe or orient yourself towards God and God's um presence in your life and in your work. So the first chapter is liturgy of commute, and we're we're focusing on how you can use the time in your normal everyday life, how can you not engage in spiritual practices as one more thing to do, as one more add-on, but how can you go about your day and use the time that you're already spending and orient it to God's purposes? And so the liturgy of commute is just what it sounds like. As you're commuting, as you're going from your home to your work, how can you use that time in a liturgical way? How can you use that time in a way that orients you to God's presence? And so I've I've practiced this um in in my own life. And so as I'm I'm leaving the house, I'm thinking about um lifting up my family to God and recognizing God's presence in the family. Um that's kind of a touchstone for me as I'm walking out the door. As I'm passing certain streets, I um remind myself to pray for or lift up to God certain people or certain events or certain activities in my um in my work life to God. Now, my commute is quite short, so this is not a long liturgy for me. Um, other people have really different experiences and have, you know, definitely the length of your commute can change this really substantially. Um, Shannon and I were talking a couple of weeks ago to a woman who engages in this practice and she commutes on the freeway and in the morning, the freeway in in Seattle, where she lives, is quite backed up and crowded. And she says, you know, she enters the freeway on that entrance ramp, and all she can see is red taillights as far as the eye can see. Um but as soon as she enters into her liturgy, that experience is no longer red taillights, but she feels like she is entering into a cathedral. And so her image of the freeway being a cathedral, I thought was really powerful and really moving and obviously very different from what most people experience on the freeway. Um, but as you're going through this liturgy, and that liturgy is going to be different for every person because you're going to create it depending on what you need and your commute and so on. Uh, but as you enter into it, it really makes holy that time that otherwise might really just be a time of frustration or irritation or zoning out or whatever else it might be.
SPEAKER_00So, Shannon, when we actually get to work, uh what um what are some of the liturgical uh practices that we can apply when we're actually at work?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so another one of our um practices that we talk about um uh in the first section of the book, which is called Orienting to Work. It's kind of how we start work, is called uh Workplace's Holy Ground. And we um really dove deep into the story of Moses and um the burning bush. And um, what's interesting about this story is that it's it's become very familiar to a lot of us um who have um been around the church and and um the storytelling of the Bible for a long time. And so I think we gloss over this um piece of Moses' story, the fact that he was at work when God showed up in the burning bush. He was tending sheep on a mountain, and that was his vocation. And um, he was going about his everyday, ordinary life when it happened, and yet God showed up and you know, he says to Moses, Yeah, you know, take off your shoes, this is holy ground. And so um kind of playing on that story a little bit, um, this practice is a practice of as you are entering whatever workspace you are in. Um, for many of us, it's an office space, it could be a cubicle, it could be a vehicle for people who um drive around a lot, um realtors and um delivery people and and all of that. Um, but whatever that workspace is, as you enter it, it's this practice of recognizing that that is a space in which um you are given work to do. And that work is um can be worship. And so as you engage in that work and as you're worshiping, you you recognize that this workspace is a space of holy ground because it's a space where you are communicating with God and where um where God is deeming your work as sacred and set apart for his purposes. There was a woman in one of the these uh discipleship groups that I um was a part of in Seattle who really took this um concept to heart. And she um she works in accounts payable at a tech firm and she does not have a cushy office space, she has a cubicle in the midst of cubicle city. Um and she um took some duct tape and she taped the threshold of where she walks into her cubicle as a reminder to her as she's like walking in and out that she sees this, and she sees that as she steps into her cubicle, that that is holy ground. And um, as she kind of started practicing this practice, she started thinking about the fact that it's not just holy ground for her, it's holy ground for whoever walks into her cubicle. And it really transformed the way that she thought about um interruptions when her boss comes and brings her more work when she's already overloaded, when a coworker comes and asks her a question and interrupts um kind of her workflow and all of those things, and it transformed the way that she interacted with these people because she recognized this is holy ground, but it's holy ground whether these people know it or not. And I can um be transformed by the power of the Lord and his presence here in how I interact with them.
SPEAKER_00Denise, what are some other ways that we can uh weave liturgy into our actual job? Our friend Scott Ray, I remember hearing him say that most people's faith to work practices only include the things that they're doing when they're not actually doing the job they were hired to do. Um, you know? And so, like, how what are some other ways that we can weave liturgy into our actual job?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, as Shannon said, we've got this book is broken into three main sections. And so the first section is orienting to work. And so we talk about a liturgy of commute, we talk about workplaces, holy ground, and we also talk about surrendering the calendar and reading scripture at work, um, which is quite different than when you're doing it at home because your your context is different. And so you may encounter it, it's it's one thing to be reading scripture, you know, in your comfy chair by the fireplace. It's something else to be reading scripture and have an annoying coworker walk by. Um, it really does reorient and reframe how you might think about loving your neighbor, for example. Um, so that's the beginning part of the book. The middle part is engaging at work. And it's exactly as you're suggesting, Darren, the idea that in the middle of your work activities, how do you encounter God? And how do you um how can you keep focused on the idea that God has you in this place for this time for a particular purpose? How does that impact the way that you do your work? We have a chapter on um affirmation of calling and helping people to think through what is God calling me to and understanding their job as an aspect of their calling. We have a chapter on gratitude and celebration and how that can play out in the workplace in a way that honors, honors God and honors the way that God has created us to be and honors other people who God has created to be in a in their particular ways. We also talk about confession and we talk about lament. Um, both of those, I think, are, well, confession in particular, I think we sort of set aside outside of work. We don't really think about that in a workplace context very much at all, um, if at all. Um, but it's one of those things that if we really did as Christian people, if we were really more serious about recognizing our own fallenness and our own sin and were able to confess to each other, to God, um, and in our workplace itself, I think would be incredibly transformative. Um, confession's hard. Um we we tell the story in the book of um when our when my kids were little, um, we actually both Shannon and I have signed with our with our kids when they were small. Um, because as kids are learning to speak, they can often sign more readily and quickly than they can actually articulate words. And one of my kids in particular was a really quite a proficient signer. Uh, by the time he was 18 months, he I stopped counting when he had about 60 signs. Um, and he was only speaking three or four words at that point, but very communicative nonetheless. And the way we would help him sign was to shape his hands and show him what a word was, and then he basically had it and he could use it from then on. And he did this really, really well with every single word we taught him, with one exception. And that one exception was the sign for I'm sorry. And he would, he would, he refused. I mean, I would make the shape of his hand and try to do the little circle on his chest, and he would fight me. He did not want to say he was sorry, even at 18 months. He had a real sense that that was not a place he wanted to go. And I think frankly, it's a really good image of all of us in many ways. Um, that's a really hard thing for us to acknowledge that we're in the wrong.
SPEAKER_00And um especially with lost people when we're working with people that are not are not brothers and sisters in Christ. It's like, I don't why do I need to apologize to somebody that's, you know, it's not like I'm confessing to a priest or something like that, right? Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. But it is also an element of honesty and an element of allowing God to um allowing us to recognize the truth of who we are in front of God and in front of other people in a way that I think could be really transformative. And we've got a couple of stories in that chapter of people whose lives were really profoundly impacted by the fact that, first of all, they needed to confess because in both cases they had engaged in in behaviors that were not just morally wrong, but were actually legally problematic. Um and then second of all, how it how it impacted them and the people around them when they uh were able to do this in a in a very overt and systematic way. So confession is one of the practices. And then lament, um, you know, again, I don't know that we talk about this very much because oftentimes we think about the Christian life and we want to be all positive and optimistic and God is on my side. And the truth is that we oftentimes have have um experiences that just aren't fantastic, or where we're in anguish, or where we're frustrated, or where we're, you know, the the workplace feels like we're suffering. And lament is a way of just being honest before God about that as well. And it's it's recognizing that God is big enough to hear that, to hear that from us. And um and we can take to God all of our experiences that might be painful at work, not just the good things, but also the the really troubled things that we may be experiencing, whether it's due to our own fault or whether it's through no fault of our own at all, but we're in a context that's just very, very difficult. And how do we um engage with God in that? And so lament is another chapter. And then the third part of our book is focusing on reflecting on work and how do we um are there ways that we can, as we're going home from work, as we're at the end of our workday, reflecting back on the workday or the work week and trying to see where God was, um, what things God wanted to us to pay attention to, what things maybe we missed. Um, and so we have a chapter on solitude, a chapter on the prayer of examine, and then also a chapter on Sabbath, which for me has been a really instrumental practice in my life over the past couple of decades.
SPEAKER_00So good. And this focus, the focus of the book tends to be on the individual and your your personal liturgy. Uh, but then there's this this also this corporate aspect. And we we have a more and more business owners and and and people working in companies that are being dedicated to uh being Christ-centered. And so there, I think, are more and more opportunities to actually have a liturgy for the company. Is that a a concept that that you're um developing as well? What would that look like for, say, a Christian business owner who wants to, who's doing a lot of these types of things kind of on a personal level, who wants to now start to infuse this into the corporate culture?
SPEAKER_01Darren, this is a great question. And it's not something that we really address in this book, uh, but I think it's a really important question for from a cultural perspective and from a large systems perspective. Um, as you may know, I'm also involved in a project at Seattle Pacific called Faith and Co., which is a series of videos focused on understanding kind of profiling businesses that are doing exactly what you're talking about, um, trying to take really theological principles and apply them in their business practice, um, not at an individual level necessarily, but much more at that corporate level. Um, I would say from a spiritual disciplines perspective, that um if you were trying to start this, I would really emphasize and focus on opportunities for gratitude, opportunities for celebration, um, and opportunities for reflection and allowing people to have time and space to think about and reflect on what things are going really well, where God is present and what things are challenging and troubling, and where um God may be present, but you're not experiencing that presence, or you're not fully uh being able to see what is happening in a in a positive way or in a way that's advancing God's kingdom. So I think those practices in particular could be pr could be very useful. Um, but I would also say that because we didn't look at this, I don't know that I have a lot of a rich repertoire of examples to to give you or to provide on this. Shanna, did you want to add anything about that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's actually a nonprofit um down here in San Diego um that is um trying to do this called Flourish. And they have um communal uh times of uh prayer and scripture reading um in the morning and then also in the afternoon. So it's not just kind of uh an orienting to work time, but it's in the midst of their work where they come back together to um try and practice these things together. And I think that's been a really powerful thing for their organization to uh not only be transformed um just through the Holy Spirit, but also to really listen to. Where God might be leading them in their work in kind of the day-to-day aspects of that. We have a practice in the book called Surrendering the Calendar, which is basically taking a to-do list and taking a calendar and really praying through that, lifting those things up to God, and then listening for what God might have you add to that. Or if there's something that you're missing that God would want to kind of reorienting, reorient you towards. And I could see that really being a powerful practice in a business or in an entrepreneurial kind of setting where corporately you're listening for where God might kind of guide and direct the day, the week, the month, the quarter, whatever it is, but really taking time to listen and to affirm that this is really God's work. And so we need to be directed in it as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And but the focus of your book on the individual is is so critical because any any kind of cultural systemic change is going to start with a couple of people that really just go all in on turning their workplaces into a sanctuary of worship. And, you know, they turn their going to work into a worship service. I mean, really, in a lot of ways, it's more of a worship service than on Sunday morning because everybody has an opportunity. You know, you're not just coming to sit in a pew, you're actually going to make you know use of your of your gifts and your abilities there in your in your workplace for for God's glory. Um, so as we wrap it up here, and um Denise, we'll start with you. What would be a parting piece of advice uh you would leave? Any anything that was uh left unsaid here that really you you want to leave with our listeners?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think there is one caveat that I want to communicate whenever I talk about this book, and that is that it's probably not a good idea to try to do everything at once. And so if you do read this and you start to look at all these practices, and we've got 11 that we're presenting in this book, trying to do all of them will feel overwhelming and will make you not do any of them well. And so my encouragement would be to think about your own life, to think about your own rhythms and to think about what could work for you in your context and start to incorporate one or two of these practices into your life in a way that hopefully can be sustained over a couple of weeks and work work at it for a couple of weeks and then reflect on it and say, did that, did that work? Was that helpful? Was that useful? And if not, don't feel guilty about that. You know, let it let it go and try something else. Our goal with this is not to make people feel guilty about what they may not be doing, but to give them ideas about ways they could use each of these practices almost as a gift, as a as a way that God is allowing you to um sort of engage with God in the midst of your life, um, in the midst of the reality of what your what your life really is, um that there's this gift, there's this freedom, there's this openness to say there, there's a way for me to hear from God, to recognize God in the midst of this. And um I wanna I wanna focus on that. So choosing one or two, trying them out, practicing, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't, and and letting go of things that don't work is is perfectly fine.
SPEAKER_00And that would be my encouragement. In terms of an action item, what what would be, I know it's hard to say, and but then again, you know, the way you've organized the book, uh I may have some idea of what you would lead off with, but what would be just something that somebody could kind of uh test drive even uh you know in the next hour or two as they're heading to work, maybe?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would say um start to think really intentionally about your commute as a time to offer the day to the Lord. And it might take a little bit to kind of create a liturgy for at certain um intersections or um certain places of business, you pray for different things. Um, but start to craft that and see how God might transform your commute, whether it's six minutes or 16 minutes, into a space where you can um offer the day to the Lord and listen for where He might be guiding you and um and then also praying for your city, your neighborhood, your family, uh the people that you work with, um the businesses around you.
SPEAKER_01What one other thing that I would suggest is actually um expressing gratitude. And maybe this is at the end of your day, uh, reflecting back on the day and trying to identify the places that you're grateful for an interaction that you had. You're grateful for the way that God showed up and really articulating those, identifying those. I'm actually working myself on, I'm not so good at doing this at the end of the day. And so I've started to keep a file on my phone so that throughout the day, as something happens, I can grab my phone and I have a little file where I type in what I'm grateful for. And it's just a way for me to document um places, really small things at times, but places where God is showing up in my day.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's so good. Well, one of the ways I've been able to kind of shift that mindset that my workplace is uh is a sanctuary of worship, is I I set three alarms on my phone and and it just says open hands. So at 10, 2, and 6, I when that when I hear that buzz, I just open my hands and verbally just surrender everything to the Lord in that moment, you know, whatever care I have in that moment. It really has become like a like an altar, you know, those you're talking about surrendering the schedule, you know, it's just been one of the ways that the Lord has uh and I got that insight from another Christian business, uh business professional. And there's just I think if we start to get more intentional as you're encouraging us to do, uh, we can develop our the our own liturgy uh for our for our work. I mean, if if if our work truly is worship, then we need to design our lives and our work life according to that. You know, it's it doesn't just, it's not just gonna happen because we we quote a verse. That's right. Um Shannon, what would be your parting piece of advice for our listeners?
SPEAKER_03I would say allow if you do engage in any of these practices, allow them to not be just another thing to check off the box, but allow them to become a conversation with God. Um that's truly what these practices are meant to do. They're meant to open us up to uh where we maybe have missed hearing from the Lord or we've deliberately um closed off a part of ourselves or a part of our work um to the Lord. And so just allow these things to enter into a conversation where you're curious about where God might be working, where you're open to hearing God's voice, and where you're training both your mind and your heart to um become more aware of God's presence throughout the day.
SPEAKER_00Yes, well said. And ShannonVandeworker.com is the is that the best place for people to connect with you, Shannon? Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Everybody go check, uh check out that website. And then Denise, where's the best place for people to uh hear more from you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't have a website, so I don't have a place to go. But if people are interested in hearing more about maybe my research or some of the Faith and Co. videos that I mentioned, um, or even just having a conversation with me about the book, um, the best place to reach me is by email, which is ddaniels at spu.edu.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. Well, ladies, thank you so much, uh, Denise and Shannon for being so generous with your time and and uh just sharing this message the Lord has put on your heart and and uh for being so faithful to develop it into something actionable for us that we all need so much.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for uh talking with us, Darren. We appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00And again, the book is working in the presence of God's spiritual practices for everyday work. And I know you can get that at Amazon. So everybody go and uh check it out. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thanks so much. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.