Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Sheer, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all features of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_02On this episode, we're joined by David L. Winters. David is the co-author of the award-winning book Taking God to Work: The Keys to Ultimate Success, which he wrote with Pastor Steve Reynolds. The focus of his writing includes bringing a biblical worldview to contemporary problems. And his other books include The Accidental Missionary, A Gringo's Love Affair with Peru, Sabbatical of the Mind, The Journey from Anxiety to Peace, and Five Christmas Plays with Joy Inside. And he's a regular contributor to guideposts, CBN.com, the Institute for Faith and Work, and many others. In 2016, he retired from the Department of Homeland Security, where he served as a division director and policy analyst. His government career also included more than 20 years with the Office of Naval Research, the research and development arm of the U.S. Navy. And so he has a unique perspective in a very large and I can attest bureaucratic organization, having served in the military. But he the Lord has just downloaded some wisdom and insight along with his co-author, Pastor Steve Reynolds, on uh and just what the Lord's plan is for our work. And so, David, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_01It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02I thought it was a uh an amusing story that you shared at the beginning of the book where uh you had uh a subordinate, he had a big problem going on, and and your response to him was you have to look at the big picture here. We are only on this planet for a relatively short time. There's no reason to get upset. Think about our higher purpose. And the guy says, Don't give me that God stuff. How did you how did you react? And uh kind of where was that response coming from when you know he's the guy's boiling over, and uh, and that was your reply.
SPEAKER_01Well, um going from the Navy, uh, where everything is pretty regimented and people operate generally within a certain emotional um framework, and uh, you know, it's it's basically there's not that much excitement, like people are under control and more and more disciplined to Homeland Security, which um uh was the result of 22 agencies being put together and most of them civilian agencies, uh, there was a big change in culture. And uh one thing I met there, which I didn't really meet much in uh in the military, was a real resistance to uh faith and any kind of attempts to uh uh to bring God into a conversation. Uh it's not like I talked about God all day long, either place, because it was work to do and specific uh tasks to be performed. But in this particular case, uh this guy was just being completely unhinged. And he was one of my managers, so he had progressed in the organization, and uh he was um uh just very stressed out. And um uh, you know, we all have you know eight hours or ten hours or however long we work a day, and we cannot do better than our best during that time. And I really felt like this guy was giving his best, but he felt so frustrated uh that he um uh you know just voiced that to me. And what he wanted was me to tell him he didn't have to do uh the assignment or he didn't have to complete uh in this case uh the number of buys that he needed to make. But we had a billion dollars to spend over the course of a year, and basically everybody had to do their part to get the money spent. And so he went so crazy, and I'd never seen anything like it to the point, you know, he literally is climbing on his chair.
SPEAKER_02Uh, you know, I and he wasn't government problems for you right there. You know, we we got we're trying to make uh pay make payroll in the private sector and the governments are oh gosh, we're so stressed out, we got to spend a billion dollars. How are we gonna do this?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. It's like the other side of the great problem to have. Yeah. And the uh the guy was a um, you know, really pleasant guy to work with normally, but he was a uh very much even more than an atheist. He uh hated uh any mention of God because he had been raised in the church and um for various reasons he had left faith and um you know he was still bitter about the whole experience.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, but you said you were calling him back to his higher purpose, but then you had kind of uh um some some recoil and a little bit of fear kind of set in of well, is the guy gonna file uh equal opportunity complaint? Uh, you know, is what's the the fallout gonna be from this? And and you said that and that was that was an introduction to the book and and kind of how you set up the remainder of the book and talking about how that this was kind of uh a formative point in your journey toward understanding God's plan for work, right?
SPEAKER_01That's correct. Um the the guy uh was you know living a gay lifestyle and um you know he had very much um the ear of the EEO uh sector of our organization. And um, you know, and I didn't know if he would uh take out his frustrations at God on me. And because I was relatively new um being his boss and having that specific job, I didn't want to start with a big personnel problem, you know, as my uh my welcome to the organization. So um, you know, that let me see though, that I'm not the only person uh in the workforce that wants to make an impact, wants to love their employees, their coworkers, their customers, and yet um, you know, I felt certain barriers uh to doing that and to sharing my faith. So that really energized me as I wrote the book because um this is a very practical book to try to help people who are in the game right now uh that go to work every day, they're trying to feed their family, they're trying to honor God with their lives, and how can they do it the best following God's word? Uh the book is crammed with uh with scripture because you know, obviously God gave us a lot of hints, a lot of roadmap about how to handle every situation in life, but especially work. It's uh spoken about over and over in the Bible, and um, you know, and all we have to do is kind of put the pieces together and do our best, and uh we'll find amazing results.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And often the episodes that we record for this podcast tend to focus on business owners. Um, but one of the things that I like about this book is that it's for it's for everybody in the workplace, especially if if you're not running the company. And uh one of the sections in here that's uh applicable to most people in the workplace, you have a section called Your Boss is a gift from God. And I know that's uh probably a cringeworthy statement for a lot of people. Um, maybe you're on your way to work right now listening to this and thinking about as you're, you know, you're you're trying to listen to David, and then you're thinking about going to face that boss this morning. Um, what do you mean your boss is a gift from God?
SPEAKER_01Well, everyone uh or people who've uh been around the Bible a while know that um the powers and authorities in our life are put there by God specifically for us. Uh they're not a terror to the good things we want to do, to our good works, but they're there to help be a schoolmaster, uh to teach us self-discipline, to teach us um really commitment to our tasks. Um, they're there in uh, you know, in the biblical sense as covering to protect us uh from things that uh other people outside the organization and even above us in the organization might try to do to harm us. There's a lot of biblical purposes of our boss. And uh what we wanted to get across in the book is that a lot of people resent their boss, they uh play mind games with them related to authority. And um, there's a lot of release that comes when you just accept the fact that everyone has a boss, that our boss was put there with God's okay, and that whatever time we spend with that person, whether they're a great boss or a terrible boss, God wants us to learn something about it, uh, about the experience. And also, maybe there's things we can teach our boss if we have the right submitted loving attitude towards them.
SPEAKER_02Well said. And so another interesting thing about this book is that you co-wrote it with your pastor. And and one of the the ways that that Pastor Steve was able to bring in some research for the book is he he pulled the congregation and said, What is your number one temptation at work? And I I believe the the list was at least 12 that were mentioned in the book. But could you give us just kind of the top three? And then, you know, think about that list, you know, listeners, as you're listening to this. Um, what is your number one temptation at work? What would you say? So now, David, what what would be the top three that came in on that uh on that poll?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let me just um give a little bit of background to that. Steve and I uh wrote the book together um for two reasons. One, um, Steve, as a pastor, didn't feel like he had as much authority as he wished he had uh about operating in the workplace, even though a church is a workplace. Um, and so he liked having someone who had been in the business world for quite a while. Um, secondly, um Steve uh had has done polls of pastors, and almost 95% have never done a single um sermon about work. Uh they have not focused on work in uh as the the purpose and the uh the uh subject of a single sermon in their whole careers, 20, 30, 40 years, they've never preached about work. Why do you think that is? Uh I think there's a couple reasons. I think um uh he, you know, I'm I really am leaning on his opinion because he uh you know is the one that goes to all these things with other pastors, but he thinks that first, um, they don't feel qualified or adequate to talk about it. They're afraid that their opinion won't carry as much weight with their um members. And then secondly, he also uh thinks that um they don't understand completely what God's purpose is for work because they've never really studied it. Um they have a special calling, but um everybody has a special calling, which is to use their job to take care of God's world. And so um, you know, that's kind of a uh a big deal. But in in the temptation area, uh, we have a congregation that's about 800 uh people that come on Sunday morning, and those folks are very normal. You know, there's people from office jobs, there's people that work uh one uh tree company, uh the cashier at the local um grocery store. There's all kinds of people. So here's what they said. Number three, misusing technology. You know, in this day and age, sitting around playing on the internet is uh a major sport uh for many, many workers. And it's easy to fall into. You know, I was a worker in an office. I know there's busier times and less busy times, but um, you know, really we're there to do a job, and there's almost always something to do, no matter what your job is. And so um uh, you know, using technology in ways that your uh employer is not really expecting you to use them is um, you know, defying authority, and it's also uh, you know, not appropriate as far as uh being productive, and you don't want to steal hours and hours from your employer uh, you know, doing stuff that isn't helping with the job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and you know, I I think that's uh it's an important point to to camp out on. And I know a lot of employers have taken the the action of blocking certain websites from, you know, like Facebook. You can access Facebook on company computers and things like that, but everybody's got a computer in their in their pocket now. So that's I mean, I I I went to uh to get some clothes last night and you know went to the the dressing room. I was um, you know, they want to see how many items that you have. So make sure you you go in with six, you don't, you know, um they can account for all six of those when you walk back out, you know, stuff them in your pocket or something like that. Well, the the person was was asleep at the switch, and well, not asleep, but she was on her phone, and I had gotten all the way into the the dressing room. By the time you know I walked by, I was like, I'm not gonna interrupt what she's doing. Um, and I just went on into the dressing room. She's like, wait, wait, wait, I gotta, I gotta count your items. And I'm thinking, uh, you were just on your phone, probably not what your employer uh had in mind for you, but but there there is so much of that, and that that is tantamount to theft, right? You know, let's let's call it what it is. Um, you know, is that the way that you would that you would frame it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And you know, none of us are perfect. Um, yeah, we don't want to put people on a big guilt trip, but um, you know, if you wonder why your career maybe isn't going the way you want it to, uh, you have to find that motivation that keeps you working uh diligently every day. And yeah, the old saying is that if you uh have a job you love, you don't you never work a day in your life. Well, you know, to some extent, we need to be in charge of our career and our lives enough that we seek relief if we're in a job that really doesn't meet our needs uh for as far as fulfillment goes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well said. So what's the number two item on the list?
SPEAKER_01Okay, gossiping. And I don't think this is a big surprise uh to people. Um, you know, even if we aren't as given ourselves to want to share things about other people, sitting and listening to others uh run down uh the coworkers, uh, the boss, whoever, uh, that is not productive for our spiritual life. Uh there's kind of an icky feeling uh that we get uh that I believe is the Holy Spirit telling us don't, you know, don't speak negatively about other people. Um you know, we need to uh you know really seek a higher level of um uh of operating in the workplace. You know, many of us uh when we were young, uh we listened, we didn't know for sure when somebody would pop into our office and start telling us a big tale about about another person, when it was gossip and when it was uh something germane to the uh to the job. But as a manager, um I got to the point where I seldom entertained um people talking about someone else. Uh generally they could tell me what their impressions of a meeting were, and that was just fine. But when they just went into this person never does that, and that person never does this, you know, that's a way um employees try to use to make themselves look better and make their coworkers look less. And um, as a manager, that doesn't build the team, you know, that doesn't help the whole team be more productive or more um uh, you know, to do things in a more excellent way. So what I found was uh I said, you know, I hear what you're saying, but you know I'm gonna talk to them about the situation as well, if you if you want to bring them up. And um, you know, if you're comfortable uh with them sharing with me their uh view of the situation and all that, then um, you know, go ahead and continue. And you know, some people would, you know, they'd go ahead and and finish what they're saying. And I did go to the the other person and and ask them how they were feeling uh about the meeting or whatever. But you know, in in procurement, especially, and I think in a lot of fields, um, you get badmouthed by your customers, by all sorts of people in the process who are or are not doing their part of what it takes to get the completed product out. And um, so you really want to deal with accurate information. And I was a big metrics guy. I think there's a lot of people like that. If you know the facts about how long it's taking to do each part of your process, uh then you can improve the process uh with um without just using anecdotes and and maybe trying to fix the wrong thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02A friend of mine named uh Ford Taylor, he actually has uh an article on this topic of stopping gossip in your workplace, which we put out on um hbu.edu. People can go and check that out. Um, but he has a policy to where if somebody's gossiping, he will actually pull out his phone and say, let's call, we're gonna call that person right now and we're gonna talk about it. It and he says, if you will do that, it only takes you know one time. They will stop gossiping to you. That they'll they might keep going to others, but they're gonna know that you are not uh gonna be on the receiving end of that kind of garbage. And I mean, that's where it really has to start. I think for those, you know, we know it's wrong. So if, but if we keep listening to it, we're just feeding it. And you know, and it becomes just cancerous. And and so I I can definitely r relate to that being number two because it is a temptation. You want to have you want to be able to talk about interesting things with your coworkers around the water. Not that we have water coolers anymore. Um, I don't know, maybe we do. Uh but but and and making we want to make ourselves look better, and we want to do that by uh making fun of somebody else sometimes or just say, oh, did you see how that did you hear what they said in the meeting? Like, did you know, like, how about that? Like it's if you're if it's not if you're not part of the solution, then why are you talking about it? You know, so so thanks for pointing that out. What's the number one point on that? Uh that the congregation reported as being the number one temptation at work.
SPEAKER_01Well, not surprisingly, perhaps, it's sexual misconduct or romance. And um, these are good Christian people at our congregation, I swear. Uh, they're very, very nice folks, but um, seriously, uh everybody looks their best, they smell their best, many people are on their best behavior. It's no wonder that uh occasionally attractions develop. Um, there are folks with all kinds of different moral codes uh at the office. So some are going to understand the importance of uh conducting their relationships in a biblical way, but there are also others who have no qualms about uh meeting someone for You know, not necessarily a long-term relationship, maybe just they want to, you know, date or something briefly. And in uh the course of my career, I saw many, many people uh run onto the rocks uh by getting involved in uh really inappropriate relationships at work. You know, there's nothing wrong if uh you're single and someone else is single uh of you deciding, hey, uh, you know, this is a very interesting person to me. Let's go out after work and um, you know, meet and go to a restaurant and get to know each other. But um it's not wise, you know, it's not really a wise career move uh to be involved with someone at work because you know, most relationships don't pan out for the long term. So you're uh basically creating a minefield uh for yourself by having people who may or may not have felt the same way about ending your uh failed attempt to relationship. So there's just a lot of problems with dating at work, but uh, you know, that's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about uh when you engage in behavior, uh especially sexual behavior, that doesn't live up to your moral code at work. Um we had a man at our church who was uh uh strong Christian. Uh everybody at work knew he was a Christian, and uh one time he felt a temptation with this uh this woman, and um she ended up uh having a baby. So uh that was an embarrassing uh situation for him, and it ruined his witness uh at that particular job, and he had no interest in pursuing a long-term relationship with the woman, but now he has a daughter with her. So they um he's uh done what I think is the right thing, which he not only supports his daughter, but he's been a father to her. Uh, it's very cute watching him walk her to children's church, uh, you know, at our church, but he got up in front of our whole congregation and told his story. And uh, you know, it's a cautionary tale that um, you know, you may think, oh, I'm just doing this thing one time and it doesn't really matter, but it can have very long-term consequences. So he eventually had to leave that job because you know, they all started making fun of him, and I'm sure that would have blown over eventually over his Christian beliefs, and uh, and yet here's the outcome. So, you know, we need to be careful uh at work. Uh, we need to have whatever rules we need for ourselves. Uh, I used to have a two-foot rule, which got to be kind of a joke with other people at the office, but I just didn't like people crowding me, you know, and now you know I'm a 60-year-old man, so it's not quite the temptation it was when I was in my 20s and early 30s. But I used to ask people just, you know, stay back. Uh, you know, there's no reason we need to be on top of each other. It's a a big office with plenty of room. So just uh stand back a little bit. But uh, but anyway, I I met a lot of wonderful people uh through the years. Uh I never dated anyone from work uh because I just, you know, had made up my mind ahead of time not to. And that's what I'd encourage people to do is uh just um you know keep work uh separate from your dating life, you know, meet somebody at church or uh, you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, and especially for people who are married, there is so much temptation there, which is why it shows up number one on this on what people say are their temptations. I'm assuming this was an anonymous survey. Um, but you know, you're we spend so much time at work, and most people spend more time with that person they're fantasizing about than they do their own spouse just because they work in the same office. And um, but there is no there is no separation of your work life from your personal life because we are uh we are unified beings, you know, we're not we're it's we tend to want to kind of fragment things and like, yeah, I just kind of I kind of do this thing over at work. And then when I'm but when I'm at home, you know, I'm a good father, I'm a good um, you know, I try to treat my spouse nice, but if this is going on at work, there's no chance that's not affecting your home life. So thanks for sharing that uh that cautionary tale. And um, but I think you know, that's not something it's it's not like the guy is just uh super Christian, you know, 364 days out of the year, and then just that one time slips up. You know, this is uh a progression. There's there's you're thinking about it. I mean, the every thought is gonna turn into an action at some point. So we just have to take those thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ, like the Bible tells us.
SPEAKER_01Well said. Yeah, and I, you know, I think there's um uh you know, there's a need within each of us to take God to work as a um uh a partner in everything that we do. You know, it's not like uh Sunday morning we're really busy thinking about God and uh and you know our relationship with him, and then through the week we put him on the back burner and we don't really uh include him. Uh our book encourages people to pray God into your day at the beginning of each workday, to look over your calendar, to ask him to join you for meetings that you're going to uh to help you solve difficult relationship problems. You know, we can all um, you know, we're human beings and we can all move into kind of our secular mode uh from time to time, but really to God there is no sacred and secular divide. Uh as you well said just a few minutes ago, you know, we're uh very much um Christian beings all the time. And uh, you know, some people kind of laugh at the title of our book, Taking God to Work, like, oh, well, of course I take him to work, you know, he's inside, you know, in the Holy Spirit inside me. But um frankly, uh if we're not centering our mind on God, it's very easy to uh let other thoughts uh invade.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very true. So as we wrap it up, Dave, why don't you tell us um give give our listeners a pitch for the book and and uh what you know why did why did you write it and what's it gonna do for our listeners?
SPEAKER_01Okay, taking God to work is uh a soup to nuts look at God's purpose for work and why, if you totally understand that, that you can find endless pools of motivation to help you do your best and be your best at work for your whole career. Um, we cover topics like finding a job you can love, uh, about what to do when you make a big mistake, about how to know when it's time to move on from one job to another, and about how to transition from work life in your first career to what your work life as a retired or as a uh a person who doesn't really need the money anymore might do. Because a lot of people are going through that stage where they've been a success in their first career, but they don't know what God really wants for them in their second career. And there's a lot of opportunity out there for you to be twice as uh as productive for the kingdom of God after you've given up your uh your initial career. So um, you know, there's a lot in the book. Um, we have 13 chapters, uh, we have questions at the end of each chapter. Uh, we also have um uh personality profiles of Christians who took God to work and uh what they did. Some of these people are hilariously funny in uh in some of their comments. Um, but basically, this is a book for the person who wants to do their best for God uh in their career and in their work. Um just, you know, Steve and I are very proud of the final product. Uh so many people helped us create it. You know, we had test readers, uh, we used it, uh, the material for it in our growth groups in our church before we ever put the book out. Uh, we cold the questions at the end of the chapter down to the ones that are most relevant. And I really think it can uh, you know, it can boost a lot of people and it makes a great gift for people that uh you wish understood. There's really no, you know, you at work and you at church. It's the same person, both places.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Excellent. David, thank you so much for uh sharing your time with us today and your wisdom. What's the best website for people to go and learn more?
SPEAKER_01Uh taking godtowork.com. That's taking godtowork.com. You can go there, you can look around, you can uh buy the book. There's a link to Amazon. Obviously, the books on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all those kind of places too. But uh we just um yeah, we'd love to hear from you. If you've got a work situation that uh uh you need a little help from, there's a contact uh point through the website and we we answer emails. You know, I'm doing this full time as uh uh as somebody who's retired from my first career, and now, you know, my intent is to love people through my books uh in this phase.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful. Well, may God continue to bless this season of your life and and this book project. And uh we thank you again. Appreciate you, David. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.