Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Shear, an initiative of the R. G. W. Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all visions of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_02On this episode, we're joined by Steve Van Udigam. Steve founded the successful motivational speaking company Universal Seminars of America Incorporated, and he's run it now for uh 25 years. And his current role is as the Houston area chair for C-12, which is the nation's largest invitation-only executive roundtable for Christian business owners and CEOs. And over the years, Steve and his wife Carolyn have purchased a business and started two others. And he was a member of one of the three original C-12 groups founded in the Tampa Bay area by Buck Jacobs several years ago. And I actually just got an opportunity to go out to the C-12 conference, and Steve has uh so hospitably allowed me to visit some of his groups, and it is it's a it's a dynamic group, and every time I go, I've been now twice, I've walked away with things that have uh shifted things in a very significant way, even some things that I was doing earlier today. I'll just give an example. Um, I was in a the the last C-12 meeting that I went to, there was an idea put out there. One of the guys was talking about how he had started applying this 10, 2, and 6 concept, which is just at, you know, we can we can get very lonely and feel like if it's to be, it's up to me, and and stop trusting God as we get into that rat race. And so what he started doing was at he set three alarms on his phone during the day, and at 10, 2 and 6, he would just hold out his hands for 60 seconds and verbally just surrender every care he had in that moment to the Lord. And I've started doing that, and now it's to the point where my five-year-old son knows when it's 10, 2, and 6, he will make sure that I'm aware of what time it is. And so we'll, as a family, we'll hold out our hands and just uh thank God for uh for his blessings and just surrender any cares we have to him. You know, just an example of uh how God is using C-12. And uh Steve is dedicated to helping Christian business owners and CEOs and presidents to build great businesses for a greater purpose. That's what C-12 is all about. And he's also a power lifter, so maybe we'll get some weightlifting tips in this interview. Uh Steve, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_01You're very welcome. Pleasure.
SPEAKER_02So, for those who aren't familiar, what's C-12 all about? I know I shared a little bit in the in your introduction, but uh from your perspective, what is what is C-12 doing that's making such an impact?
SPEAKER_01Well, it it's it's really tapping into something that Billy Graham said right before he passed away. He said he believes the next great move of God is going to be in the marketplace. And Barnard Research uh found several years ago that the average sized church in the United States is just a hundred members. We gotta have to forget about Houston. And the average number of salvations per the average church in a year is only one. So that means that the not yet believers are not in the church right now. That's not to be critical of churches, but they're not there. They're in the marketplace. They're employees, their customers, their vendors, and so forth. So that tagline, building great businesses for a greater purpose, is very important. The greater business part is certainly learning and implementing MBA level best practices, which is what C12 helps them do. But the greater purpose part is to point people to God through Jesus Christ in ways that are legal, winsome, and appropriate. So we're bringing forth the gospel into the marketplace. Results of that have been have been amazing because we discovered that even a small company can influence five to ten thousand people for the kingdom. So it's very serious business, it has eternal consequences, and it's a lot of fun to watch it happen.
SPEAKER_02And so you got involved in 1994 in one of those first groups that uh Buck Jacobs was was leading, the founder of C-12, for anyone who's not familiar. Um, how much of the C12 stuff were you? I say C12 stuff, uh, you know, very uh as a as a blanket to kind of encompass all the amazing things that are being taught and the models and best practices and all of that founded on the word of God. How much of that C-12 stuff were you doing before you got involved with C-12? Because you were running several businesses.
SPEAKER_01Well, from a business practice standpoint, uh, since I have an MBA, there's there's all kinds of things that I was doing. But I I learned what really affected our company more than even the best practice part was the spiritual part, because that's what changed my life. My wife's my wife has always been the president of our companies, I've been CEO. We worked together, we were both in C12, and that changed our perspective from something of a zero-sum mentality of we've got to go out there and get something, and if we don't, we'll lose it, to an abundance perspective and an eternal perspective. And so our employees became more important to us, our customers became more important to us, the crowds in our in our seminars became more important, our vendors, and so forth. And in the Bible, it says the kingdom of God's like a mustard seed. So it doesn't take much to start, but it can certainly grow. And it absolutely transformed our lives and gave us more peace. It gave us bet wisdom and discernment and a different place to go for wisdom and discernment that we didn't have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And in the last meeting that I was in uh with you, Steve, here in Houston, uh, one of your members spoke up and said, guys, and and gals, because there are it's not just men in the in these groups, um, he he was saying that there's this model that you have developed, this process that you take the members through uh contrasting the two kingdom reality. And he was just saying that it was so transformational for him. And he's he said to all these other business owners, and by the way, the these um owners, you know, their companies are tens to hundreds of millions of dollars. Uh, I think there might even be a billion, a couple billion dollar companies in there. I mean, hundreds of employees. He said, You've got to go through this process with Steve. What is that two kingdom reality model?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um, I learned this about five years ago, and it it took me to a different level of trusting God. And I learned this through a Bible study um from conducted by Dr. Keith Bauer, who is a pastor here locally. Uh, he's brilliant. And what he brought out was this the the God operates in a binary way. And in Deuteronomy chapter 28, this is all backed up by scripture. Deuteronomy chapter 28, he details blessings and curses. Um, he made men and women, uh, we can obey or we can disobey. And so there's two kingdoms that are a reality right now. And I didn't really ever think like this, and most of my business owners never think like this. The first kingdom, if we had a piece of paper and we we put a line right down the middle of it, the left side, let's just call that the world, the kingdom. So a kingdom needs a what? A king. A king. Well, the king of that, the word world is very sanitized. That's Satan's kingdom. And that's something that God is allowing him to be the God little G of right now. And in that kingdom, we we label that is death life. And that's in Romans. So the death is a death to the relationship with God, and the life is the life that we're going to lead because of that, not only here, but eternally. And we're going to stay with Satan's kingdom for a minute because Jesus told us what the business plan was of his kingdom. It's in John 10, 10, the first part of that. And Jesus tells us the thief comes only, the thief is Satan, comes only to steal, kill, and destroy. That's the objective of the world. No matter how we dress it up or look at it, that's really what it is. So now we move over to the second half of John 10.10. Jesus says, But I have come to give them life and life abundantly, or life to the full, whichever translation you're reading. So let's look at the God's kingdom for a second. That's the second one. Now we're on the right hand side of the page. God's kingdom is called life life. And this is a life under grace. In Satan's kingdom, it's the life under the old written code, which is the Ten Commandments. And we do think we try to keep the Ten Commandments. And nobody on earth can keep the Ten Commandments. So that's why it's burdensome, but it was also their design to define sin and show people that they've got to be better in their life, and they can't do it themselves. Romans 8 1 says, there is now therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Well, it goes on to say, and most people don't read this part of it, it says hang on one second here, let me get back to this. It says in verse 2, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. That's Satan's kingdom. For what the law was powerless to do, in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. Now, what that says right there is that we when we're when we accept Christ, we actually receive something that we lost in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had everything. They had a body, soul, and they had the Holy Spirit. Everything was provided, it was all perfect. And when Eve and Adam sinned, what did they lose?
SPEAKER_02Well, they lost the first of all the opportunity to be in the garden.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And the main thing is they lost the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And from that point forward, everybody was born as intelligent, selfish animals. And they are automatically in default in Satan's kingdom. So when somebody accepts Christ, the wonderful thing that happens is we get the Holy Spirit back. We're automatically in God's kingdom. Now let's take a look at what's in God's kingdom very quickly. Ephesians 1:3 says that we have all the blessings in the heavenly realms are given to us. Automatically, we have access to God. We have access to the throne of God. Jesus is interceding for us. Now, when we have access to God, what do we have access to?
SPEAKER_02Everything we need for life and godliness, the Bible.
SPEAKER_01We have his protection, we have his provision, we have his prosperity, we have we're not the head, we're not the tail, we're the head. We have his discernment, we have his protection, we have we have all provision. All of this is there. It's rich, it's wonderful, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generalness, all of that, and a lot more I can't even describe, is in God's kingdom. Now the problem is that line we drew down the middle of the page separating God's kingdom with Satan's kingdom, there's a little revolving door in the middle of it. Because we actually have the opportunity to do whatever we want. God gave us what? Free will. Free will. So we can make a choice to be stupid. And that's why, that's why in Deuteronomy 28, he said, I call heaven and earth to say, look, I'm offering you blessings and curses. I think you ought to choose life. Yeah. We don't necessarily do that. And this is how we step over into Satan's kingdom. This comes into the business world now. So we're saved. We're over here in God's kingdom. We're not going to lose our salvation. Now we decide that we we have a problem and we want to do something about it. And being business owners, we always think we know better than everybody else, and we also think we know better than God. So what we do is we try to we we figure a plan out and we try to execute it and we pray about it. Now, what do we pray about?
SPEAKER_02God bless my uh my plan, bless the decisions that I've already made.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, show yourself mighty here, and it doesn't work. And so we're over in Satan's kingdom, and when we're over in Satan's kingdom, we get whacked. Yeah. What whacked means is it's steal, kill, and destroy. And you say, Steve, how do my members always ask this, how do I know when I'm out of the kingdom? How do you how would you say, Darren? What do you think?
SPEAKER_02Well, you can't hear God's still small voice.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02And you're not even necessarily interested in hearing it either. That's the worst part.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. And and here's the indicators for me and most people. They're angry, they're frustrated, they feel oppressed, they feel stressed, they feel like the world's on their shoulders. And Buck Jacobs founded C12 on a couple on three truths. Here they are. Number one, it's not your business, it's God's business. Number two, we're going to be held accountable for how we run that business. And number three, it's a platform for ministry. Now, that first one's a big one. When I do one-on-ones with some of my C12 members, I can tell when I walk in that they're having the world on their shoulders. I can just see it. They're humped over, they look tired, they've been working 80-hour weeks, which God doesn't want us to do. And once we review the fact that God owns the business, if God owns the business, He owns your business, Darren, that you have right now, all the problems you have, whose are they? His. Where's the answer? Him. It's him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So what really matters, and by the way, once once that that light comes back on in somebody's head, all of a sudden the pressure goes away. Right. So the real the real challenge for business owners or anybody really is to know how to tap into that wisdom and discernment. And God provides everything for us. It's in John 15. Jesus says, I am the true vine, and my father is the gardener. He goes on to say, um, if you don't abide in me, you're not going to be able to produce any fruit. You have to stay with me. So that abiding in Christ, notice I didn't say the Bible. We don't abide in the Bible. Right. We abide in Christ. We do it through God's word, certainly. Yeah. But it's not worshiping the Bible, it's worshiping Christ.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's not the Father, Son, and the Holy Bible. It's the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01That's right. I love that. And I'm going to go to Galatians here for just a second because there's a there's something in Galatians. It's it's it's chapter six, verses seven and eight. And this really sums it up. Here it is. Do not be deceived. Who's the deceiver? The devil. Yeah. He's the father of lies. The world lies to us. Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Now listen to this. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction. What was Satan's plan?
SPEAKER_02Rob, kill, and destroy.
SPEAKER_01Destroy. There it is, right there. The one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life. Hence death life, life life. So when my members figure out that they can tell when they are out of God's kingdom, we got to get back into God's kingdom. And in his graciousness, he gives us a way to do that. It's from John 1 9. If you're faithful and just, and if you confess your sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us all our sins, not half of them, all our sins, and purify us from all unrighteousness. Isn't that beautiful?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01God says, let's go, Darren. He's always there. He's always ready. He's always got this. We're not alone. He's been with us before, all the time, before now. He's with us right now during this interview, and he's going to be with us forever. That is such a beautiful thought. Most people have never heard that. Most people do not understand what that is. And there's all kinds of other scriptures I could go into, but we do not have time. The principle here is do not go over to the kingdom of Satan.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And the way the world deceives business owners is number one, you got to grow. That's not necessarily true. It depends on what God wants. And the world says you got to grow. And the world says it's a zero-sum society. I mean, if you've got a competitor and he takes a customer from you or something, hey, you've just lost. Not necessarily. You've got to go to God with that. Let me give you a quick example. We have a member here in Houston, a C12 member, who had 40% of their business was with one customer. And this is almost a $200 million company. 40%'s a lot. Well, this customer they had called in a bunch of uh Ivy League MBAs, and they decided they were going to go renegotiate all their contracts around the United States. So they gave them this little RFP that was about this big, and they spent a year and a half filling this thing out. And instead of being fearful about that, and they kind of, this company kind of gave them veiled threats that if they didn't really cut things, they were going to lose the business. That's Satan, by the way, fear. They prayed about this. They got their management team, got on their knees, they prayed. They said, God, we want what you want. Give us your what do you have to say about this? Note that question. What do you have to say about this? Don't we want to keep the contract? Bless us because we keep the contract, keep the contract. Uh-uh. And what they did is they became neutral. Now, here's another concept. Neutral means all you want is God's will for situation. Because God's will is best and there is none better.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's in the kingdom. We only receive these blessings when we're walking in the kingdom. And these blessings overtake us and they bless other people so that we can be a blessing and that passes through. So they prayed that. They said, God, all we want is what you want. What do you say about this agreement right here? So this agreement has some pretty harsh stuff in it. Everybody across the country, and this is a major company that was their customer. All the other vendors signed this agreement, which had a part of it that was just really stupid. It made them liable for anything that would ever happen with that product. God said, no, don't do that. Now the management team, there was a lot of discussion around this, a lot of prayer around this. They didn't do it. They're the only company that didn't do that. They still have that business.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not only do they still have that business, it's increased. Wow. Because, see, here's a principle. When you we obey God, he blesses us. And Hebrews 11:6 says, without faith, it's impossible to please God because whoever goes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. They were earnestly seeking him. And here's what's really cool: when you obey him like that and you have faith, you know what he gives us?
SPEAKER_03What do you think he gives us? Life.
SPEAKER_01He gives us more faith.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is that the coolest thing you've ever heard in your life? Isn't that wonderful? And God is so gracious, yet we think we know more than he does. And the temptation all the time is to operate out of our flesh. Yeah. And that's really the battle right there. So that's death, life, Satan's kingdom, life, life, God's kingdom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's such a blessing when we walk over here. And this is where God wants us all the time. And once once I knew this, I immediately started checking myself. See, wait a minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm angry here. What am I angry? God, what am I angry about? He tells me. Well, what do you what do you have to say about that? Blah, blah, blah. Oh, okay, didn't realize that. Well, what do you want for that person? Boy, watch this now. What do you want for this C12 member? What do you want for this customer? And now I have a different perspective, and the pressure is off of me. And for many of the C12 members that have learned this, uh, the pressure's off of them. Now, this isn't the only thing they learn in C12, but it's a big concept. So I I hope that answers your question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, because they're not going to teach that in business school, that's for sure. And they're not going to teach that in Fortune magazine and and all the rest. But you know, this is I think this is where the spiritual disciplines are so critical because you can't really uh adopt this mindset without some spiritual disciplines going on, which is why that 1026 uh practice has been so uh effective for me. Something that I picked up in your C12 meeting. It's just and yeah, and and even if I was to say I'll re I gotta do this at 10. uh 10, 2, and 6, it was the setting of my alarm that really made the difference. Yeah. Because that buzz went off at 10 o'clock this morning and it was it was hands out, you know, at two o'clock, same thing. And and so it could be it could be anywhere, but that's the what are some of the the the ways that you encourage your people to go about doing this because I mean the the whole the whole world is against them in this in this regard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah that's a great question. And here's the problem before C12 I'd go to church and you know it's a nice sermon and I really I really enjoyed it. But when Monday came I felt really subconsciously almost like I had to operate differently that I I would be weak if I was a you know really a nice person and always looked at the other person and all of this stuff. That's a life in the bowels of hell right there because gospels for everything. I and what I did is we brought our faith we brought our business rather to our faith not the other way around and we integrated it. So the way people integrate something is to remember it.
SPEAKER_02Did you ever play sports or anything in school or I did yeah football and wrestling.
SPEAKER_01Oh well let's take wrestling okay very difficult I hated wrestling okay well here here's the thing you learned a lot of things in wrestling you learned some moves didn't you and when you were wrestling you didn't have to think about those moves because they were all muscle memory true true that's what it has to be with this too. Yeah and and it it all roads lead back to a quiet time it's not a devotion on the phone that pops up every day and we look at it and say oh that's really nice. Uh-uh this is a relationship through Christ through God's word and oh I'm gonna read the Bible in a year okay well if God calls you to do that that's great. But we've got to and so the the the the quiet times we recommend and it's all up to the person because God designed this differently but but the principles are ask God questions. What are the top five questions you have for him right now? Okay now go in your Bible reading plan and just start reading but have a journal next to you because he's going to show you a verse that speaks to that. And when he shows you that verse stop and ask him more about what that and maybe cross-reference it. And now what we have here is we have an interaction with the God of the universe in a quiet time and I'm telling you that's a lot more than checking off a box because I read a chapter today in the Bible. So the quiet time is really important and we recommend that the person does that every day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah if I get away from a quiet time one or two days I'm done what's one of your favorite examples of uh you you shared one already but another maybe another one of your famous example favorite examples of one of your members making this shift where they they were just and I've seen it on people as well like you said they walk in and they're just there's just weight pulling their shoulders down their head down they're they're just in the dumps and you can just only imagine what they're like when they're not in the room um and what they're doing to cope with that what what's one of your favorite examples of somebody making that shift that's a great question.
SPEAKER_01I want to say one other thing here too we're talking about business here but when somebody really understands this two kingdom concept this affects their family this affects their kids this affects their relationships and God's priority is our relation with him through Christ. The second is family and the third is what we do outside of that which work is a big part to him the world has turned that upside down. Yeah and the family's being torn apart and so forth. So so in our quiet times and all this we've got to keep those three priorities intact and this is going to come to my example we had a brand new member uh he was um he was really excited about it and he came in and he's going through this this company's been around for 75 years he's the fourth generation CEO in that company and this is happening throughout the United States right now that these other generations are coming on board and he had all we didn't know this at the time but he had all kinds of conflict with his dad because his dad was holding on and his mother has Alzheimer's and he's got a brother who's older but he's not the CEO because this guy our C12 member is and his brother doesn't do much and he had friction with his brother and he had another brother that's becoming an alcoholic and all this stuff. We didn't know any of that. So he came to his first meeting and we had some prayer time where we go around and do prayer requests and he started saying something he said no I I don't I don't I don't think I'm gonna mention that somebody said you're welcome to go ahead and mention that all of a sudden he started talking about this and he started weeping and that played out and somebody said would you mind if we pray for you and so we did we prayed for him and all of a sudden he just stopped weeping and he said well thank you so much I feel so much better. Well he went back into the office that afternoon and when he walked into the office everybody said what the heck happened to you turns out he did not have a relationship with Christ he was actually got saved in that meeting that's awesome. That doesn't happen every day he got whacked in a good way he got whacked in a good way yeah and and what's happened since that time that was several years ago his relationship with his father has totally his father's not a believer uh uh is totally transformed I believe that he'll come into relationship with Christ um his his relationship with his brother has improved the company has improved because of that because everybody sees this again kingdom of God is like a mum seed it comes in and it spreads so that's one of my favorite things to share right there and I have permission to to share that from him too yeah I love that wow well I think anyone who's listening you know you might you might have a relationship with Christ but you know how's it how's it going? Why don't you go ahead and speak to our listener right now Steve and in light of what we're talking about here as we wrap it up but what would be your parting guidance for them well number one is make up your mind who owns things uh it's God who owns them he owns everything your body your family your possessions he owns everything and he is a good God from the sense of not that he's a willy-nilly God but he wants the very very best for you and he has customized a life for you and if you're a business owner that's included that particular business you've got to make up your mind if he owns it the second thing you've got to make up your mind is that all you want is his will in every decision. Now not what shirt am I going to wear today of course but any decision of significance you've got to go to him you've got to seek him and Jeremiah 33 I love this verse call to me and I will tell you unsearchable things that you do not know. And it's all there he's always with us. So those are the two things that I would encourage them to keep in mind. And then if they don't have a quiet time they need to get it done. Don't tell me you can't journal yes you can don't tell me you can't memorize scripture yes you can if you want to do that. It's all what God leads you to do. But you're missing it if you're not doing that right now. And I just hope and pray that your listeners will do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and I would add to that whatever you know whatever time of day or times of day that quiet time is happening set alarms on your phone you know because maybe it's just maybe you're not quite there yet you know it's going to take some uh this is not willpower but it's you know it's how you want to design your life you know do you want to align how do you want to align it and um but I have found that setting those alarms on your phone you know first thing in the morning several times throughout the day have been a great way to put put that quiet time into action. So is C12group.com is the website for the national C12 group if uh someone wants to reach out to you Steve and is uh because we have a lot of listeners here in the Houston area sure and of course there are groups all over the the country and now going global what what would you advise them?
SPEAKER_01Well the general on the C12group.com and they can find if they're not in Houston they can find groups all over the United States uh the Houston one is c12 uhuston.com or they can call me at 813 2302651 and I'll be very happy to answer any questions that they might have.
SPEAKER_02Wow well Steve is as good as they come as a as a as a chair for one of those C12 groups he'll definitely uh give you a squick uh a swift uh kick in the pants when you need it and um it's just been a a tremendous encouragement every time every time I interact with him so Steve may God continue to bless you and your family and your groups and thanks for sharing with our listeners today.
SPEAKER_00Well you're very welcome my pleasure we hope you've enjoyed this episode and if so we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness dot com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business