Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Sheer, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders integrate their local values into business. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all pages of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at ChristianityInbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01On this episode, we're joined by Fred Stevert. Fred is the retired president of the New York Life Insurance Company, which is clearly no small company for uh pretty much anyone who lives in the world has probably heard of this company. It's a Fortune 100 company. Under his leadership, New York Life first achieved a number one market share ranking in the sale of life insurance in the United States and repeated that distinction for seven years. Following his retirement from New York Life in 2007, Fred attended Yale Divinity School and was awarded a master's degree in religion in May of 2011. And he's the author of Grace Revealed: Finding God's Strength in Any Crisis, and the book God Revealed: Revisit Your Past to Enrich Your Future. Fred, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren. Glad to be with you.
SPEAKER_01At what point did you realize God wanted to be involved in your work in business? That God wasn't just a Sunday morning God, but that He truly wanted to be involved in your work.
SPEAKER_03Well, Darren, pretty early on in my spiritual journey, uh I got to know Christ very well. I felt uh uh this week, actually, with Pentecost coming up, uh I really felt pretty early on in my career that uh the Holy Spirit would be guiding me and directing me. And so I relied heavily on the Holy Spirit, not just in my personal uh my personal devotions and in my spirituality, but also at work. Uh, so I I really felt uh when tough decisions came up, when things were too complicated for me to figure out, uh, you know, I called on the Lord very, very often. It wasn't uh unusual for me to pray 10 to 15 times a day to usually short prayers, uh simple prayers, even in the middle of a meeting when it was a tough meeting and I was in a position where I had to make a big decision. You know, I would often pray to myself, uh, Lord, I don't know how to handle this. You you got to give me some guidance. And I really believed that the Holy Spirit would guide me and direct me. So uh the Lord has been on that journey with me throughout my lifetime and especially during my career days.
SPEAKER_01So, as the president of one of the largest companies in the world, uh New York Life, what opportunities did you have for ministry at that role?
SPEAKER_03Well, it's interesting because New York Life, big company at the time I was president, we had 65,000 employees and agents uh in 12 countries. So essentially every uh imaginable faith was represented uh among our employee base and our agents, uh, you know, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, you name it, every every imaginable denomination of Christians. So I had to be careful not to look like I was proselytizing, trying to convert anyone from their own faith tradition to a new one. But everybody that I dealt with understood that I was a Christian. I someone the other day was asking me how often I was giving speeches to large and small groups, and this really is not an exaggeration. I felt like almost every day I was speaking to some group, whether it was an employee who was retiring or uh uh a small group who were talking about the strategies or the vision of the company or a big convention of 5,000 agents, I was speaking to groups all the time, and I made it very clear about my faith. And they they all knew I was a Christian. So when I retired in 2007, because we were in 12 countries, I think I had at least a dozen retirement parties. And since I retired early at age 59, you would think a lot of people would say, What happened? What went wrong here? You know, why is this guy leaving as president at age 59? Nobody said that. Everybody understood. It was very gratifying to me. It was a real blessing that people weren't surprised that I was retiring early to go to divinity school. And it's because I expressed my faith often. I mean, it people understood what God meant to me and what the Lord meant to me. And the first book I wrote, God revealed, was 31 stories of my encounters with God over the course of my life, and probably a third or more of those stories were work-related experiences. So it was very natural for me to tell the story to a big convention of agents and also bring in the fact that I felt the experience was a message from God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What would be one of your favorite stories that would specifically resonate with our Christian business professionals listening? Uh, one of those stories that you shared in your book.
SPEAKER_03Well, the the one that was most inspiring to me was uh we had a joint venture company in India, and I was uh I was a ranking member of the board. We had a partner, and I traveled to India once a quarter for a number of years to those meetings, and our partner owned hospitals and uh clinics. And on one of the trips, the chairman of their board said to me, How would you like to visit one of our uh cardiac our new cardiac facility? And you know, I wasn't keen on uh the traffic in Delhi and getting to the hospital, but I said, sure, let's go. Then we walked into the atrium of the hospital, really a very modern hospital. And he said to me, as long as you're here, how would you like to observe a procedure? And I really didn't want to do that, but I thought, well, I'm gonna be in a surgical amphitheater, you know, 12 feet above the operating table. So I said, Yeah, okay. Well, unbeknownst to me, they marched me into the scrub room, had me stripped down, put on a cap, a mask, a gown, and booties, and walked me right into an operating room where they're gonna perform a quadruple bypass surgery. And by the way, this was coming at a time in my life when I was thinking about should I retire early? Should I go to divinity school? I kind of felt my spiritual education and development was deficient. So they marched me in there, they asked the anesthesiologist to step aside, and they put me right at the head of the operating table, my stomach's two inches from the top of the head of the patient. And when they open up that chest cavity, and I saw the beating heart in front of my eyes, like only a foot and a half away, this was a profound spiritual experience for me. I mean, how often do you really think about your beating heart? And I'm watching this heartbeat, and I'm starting to cry, and I was worried that my tears are going to fall into the face of the patient, except the surgical mask was absorbing my tears. But I'm thinking to myself, how did this ever happen? You know, how can this God's marvelous creation right in front of my eyes? And I never even thought about this before. And how can any doctor, surgeon, not believe that this is God's remarkable creation? And I mean, it was just a profound experience. It sort of reinforced my thoughts about going to divinity school and doing a deep dive in the Old Testament and a deep dive into the New Testament. And you know, there's a work-related experience that you know I didn't have to do anything other than observe. But, you know, I'm just I'm just really astounded by life in any form. It changed my whole outlook on life. I called it getting a glimpse of God, and it really changed my outlook on life. I see God everywhere now. I mean, I'll go out for a walk and just look at the trees and animal life and the cosmos and plants, and you know, it's amazing. I don't know how anybody cannot believe in God and his creation. You know, I was trained as an actuary, which is uh, you know, very much into probability, statistics, insurance mathematics. So my mind works that way. And you would think I'd be biased more toward science than toward religion. But I'll tell you what, uh, to me, it is far more probable that God created mankind than mankind evolved from a single-cell amoeba over billions of years. I just don't buy it, and even if I bought it, I'd have to ask the question where did the amoeba come from? Uh, you know, you start thinking about these things, and it's really a remarkable process your mind goes through and a reinforcement of your beliefs.
SPEAKER_01Have you ever actually, because I know that you hire researchers and do a lot of actuarial research uh nowadays, even on um topics that don't typically relate directly to the insurance industry, but on uh people's stories and so on. Uh, have you ever done any actuarial analysis on uh, for example, the um the existence of God, things like that?
SPEAKER_02Uh uh that's a challenge. That maybe that'll be a book I write down the road, but no, I can't say that I've ever done that.
SPEAKER_01We've heard uh, you know, for guys Lee Strobel is a faculty member at uh Houston Baptist University. You know, he's coming at it so a great story, uh yeah, from a journalist standpoint, but it'd be interesting to hear it from uh an actuary's standpoint. Uh yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_03Well, Darren, you've given me a new idea now. I uh I when you started saying research, I I did hire a researcher for my second book, which is about people in severe crisis. And and I hired a researcher who did a spectacular job. So when you enter in each one of these chapters in the book, one you know, I have a chapter on uh sexual abuse, addictions, uh depression, PTSD, loss of a loved one, all that kind of stuff. And I I purposely hired a researcher to look at the prevalence of those things, so I because I wanted the reader to read that that research so they realize they're not alone. And believe me, sexual abuse, any of your listeners, you are not alone because this is so prevalent, it's shocking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I went to business school at Pace University, not far from your New York College building there in uh lower Manhattan. I and I remember the um, I never took any, you know, actuarial courses or anything like that, but I I I I it was very clear to me in my discussions with my professors and and fellow students that mathematically the actuaries really were at the highest level, like of all of the uh the business uh disciplines. So I have a lot of respect for that ability because I was not a math guy.
SPEAKER_03Um and it's a it's a pretty intense training uh regimen you have to go through. I think I took nine very, very long exams, yeah, some of them six hours long, uh, over the course of above four years to complete the certification. So some people called it harder than getting a PhD in math. But you know, I quickly uh moved into management ranks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So so if you were to it, it almost sounds like when I I've watched some of your interviews and hearing you talk, it almost sounds like when you left, when you retired, it was like this enormous weight just came off you, and and and almost like almost like an escape from the marketplace. Did it feel like that?
SPEAKER_03Well, I was sad to leave because I love my job, and my passion has always been to impact people's lives in a positive way. So I wasn't sure how I was going to use that coming out of divinity school. Um, but uh it was a relief in the sense that I was kind of uh on call and working 24 by 7 by 52 weeks. I mean, it was an intense job when you have that many people under your leadership. Um but I I really felt, as I said earlier, that my spiritual education and development was somewhat deficient. Um, so I really was anxious and enthusiastic about going to divinity school. I'll tell you a funny story. I was 59 years old, and uh I'm going to school for the first day, and I'm walking out of my home in Connecticut to go up to Yale, where I went to divinity school, carrying my book bag, and my adult daughter was visiting us, and she's in the living room, and she yells out to me as I walk out the front door. She says, uh, don't don't uh she said, play nice with the other kids and don't forget to share. And you know, it was funny at the time, but I was thinking about that as I was driving up to Yale, and I thought, you know, it actually is kind of profound because what I found since retiring and going to divinity school and writing a couple of books, that there's so much power there in spiritual sharing.
unknownSure.
SPEAKER_03It's it's remarkable the impact that that has. I'll tell you one quick story. Before I even wrote the first book, um the guy who ran the men's group at my church came to me and he said, Fred, this men's group is becoming nothing but a social event. Can you come up with some ways to generate spiritual sharing? So I thought about that, I prayed about that, I worked with the minister. We set up a session with like 65, it was a men's group session, 65 people at a dinner sitting at tables of eight. And I got up and mentioned the book I was writing, and before they served the salad, I said, uh, I'm gonna tell you uh I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you something out of my book, and I'm hoping that you will share around the table after I've told the story. So I I first started out with something very safe for people to talk about, and that was uh, how do you balance faith, family, and career? And I talked about the ways in which I tried to balance faith, family, and career, and there was a lot of engagement around each table when I asked them the question have you do you have any coping techniques? Second thing I did was I told this story I told you about the uh epiphany in India, the seeing the open heart surgery and getting a glimpse of God. And I said, When have you gotten a glimpse of God? And again, the engagement around the table was really strong. And I I by the way, I preface this whole thing by saying, you know, I know men sometimes are reluctant to share their faith and they don't do it very often, and you can get very emotional. But I said, Listen, crying is totally allowed, and if you want confidentiality at your table, I'm sure the men at your table will grant you that. And then the third, before dessert, I told another story which I won't go into now, but it was about an experience I had, it's also in the book, where uh it was so improbable that it had to be providential. And so I asked them to think about their own background. And was there anything in your life that was so improbable that it had to be uh providential and not just a coincidence? Again, heavy engagement. But here's the punchline, Darren. I get home that night and I get an email from one of the guys who was at the meeting, and he he said, Fred, I sat at a table tonight with guys I have known for 15 years, but I really didn't know them till tonight. And that that's the power of spiritual sharing. And sometimes it's difficult to get people to verbalize and to share it. But I've told that story that just the way I just told it to you and your listeners uh in groups of ministers. I did a speech at the New Canaan Society in Manhattan, and there were about four or five ministers in the group, and three of them came up to me afterward and said, We need to do that at our church. Will you come to our church and do a similar kind of event? And since I published the first book, I've probably done that same sort of event 15 to 20 times, and it always generates the same level of sharing. And part of it, I think, is when I got up and shared my story, it gave the members in the audience permission to share theirs, and it triggered in their own minds things that had happened to them that sort of answered the questions that I posed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, Fred, knowing what you know now, having gone through seminary, written these two books, and really been on this uh highly introspective journey since uh since retirement and leading into retirement, uh and I know that you do a lot of mentoring with young business professionals as well. Uh, maybe we'll have a book on that soon. Um but if you were to go back into the marketplace uh and and kind of coach your younger self, how would you how would you express your Christian faith differently if you were to kind of go? Because I've I've asked this question to other um you know very highly influential business leaders who have kind of gone into retirement, retire from very prestigious positions and so on, and uh, you know, now they're working in nonprofits and that kind of thing. I literally, one of them said when I asked him that question, um, basically, that I would not, I would not go back into the marketplace knowing what I know now. Um, which it kind of broke my heart because here I am trying to figure out how to serve the Lord in the business world, uh, as is the case with probably you know 97% of the world's population works in a for-profit company, at least the working um the working population. Uh so how would you coach uh in in light of what you know now, uh what would you do differently?
SPEAKER_03Well, I would go back uh because we learn so much as we age, you know, and as we go through, we're we're we're a product of our experiences, good and bad, successes and failures. And I've learned a lot. So uh I'm actually working on a third book, which is gonna combine some business-related tips. It's especially designed for people entering the workplace for the first time. Uh, now that may be young people, it might be adults, you know, uh women or even men who've been staying at home and want to re-enter the workplace. And it's it's gonna start with five tips I've given to my daughter and others on how to fast start your career and get noticed. And it's also gonna have a section on spirituality and how to bring that into the workplace. And and you know, yeah, I've sort of, as I thought about doing the book, it's forced me to think back through my experiences, what I did right, what I did wrong. And basically, it's gonna have four or five tips, six maybe tips. And and and I'll give you a couple of them now because I think it would be useful for your listeners to hear this. Because if I were going back in, I would focus on this and make sure that I was doing this every day. And some of it I did every day anyway. But one was you gotta bring Jesus to work with you. I mean. I view Jesus as a powerful business partner. I mean, he told us in Matthew 11, 30 that, you know, uh my yoke is easy and my burden is light. I love that imagery of being yoked to Jesus. And you know, through the Holy Spirit, you know, I've got a partner, a business partner that created the universe. You can't find a better business partner. So that that would that's gonna be one of the tips. Another one is praying often, pray very often for guidance from the Holy Spirit. It wasn't unusual for me to pray 10 to 15 times a day. And it usually was a very short prayer. It wasn't about getting making more money, getting a bonus, getting a promotion. It was never about that. It was always about doing the right thing, acting with integrity and strong ethics, and being a good role model for my employees. And it would be very short prayers. I mean, I could be in a meeting that was difficult, where it's a decision had to be made, and I'm the guy who's got to make it. And I say, Lord, I'm not sure what to do here. I'm not smart enough to understand this. You're you're gonna have to help me. And I really believed, I didn't hear an audible voice, but I really believed that the Holy Spirit was speaking to me and guiding me and directing me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And Fred, I got a similar piece of advice recently on that point about having those regular prayer times and frequent prayer times throughout the day. Um, uh, the CEO of through an organization called C12, I don't know if you're familiar with them, but a group of Christian CEOs. And uh, one of the things that he advised me to do, and something that he well really he was just saying what he does, and I just jumped on it, is to set three alarms throughout the day at 10, 2, and 6 to where for 60 seconds you're just gonna hold your hands out and just surrender the business, surrender your uh your your worries, surrender everything that's going on in your life, your family, just give it over to God verbally in those 60 seconds. And and it has been such a liberating thing for me. I I implemented that and been doing it ever since, and has just changed my life to realize, like you said, that's when you really make the reality that you are yoked with Jesus, you start to really feel it. It's more than just theology. You really start to sense that in your daily life that he's with you.
SPEAKER_03That's a fantastic practice, absolutely. Uh, another thing that uh one of the stories of my second book, which is about people in crisis who really were in severe crisis, reached out to the Lord, felt grace, the Lord's grace, God's grace, and then ultimately gave back to others through some form of ministry. But there's a guy in the book who really succumbed to temptations in the workplace, you know, to cut corners, to uh do things, to lie about certain things and negotiations, to you know, to do things that really were wrong. And so I think you really always have to act with strong values and ethics and with biblical principles in mind. And one of my favorite verses for a long time has been Matthew 8 36, which is what good is it for someone to gain the whole world yet forfeit their soul? I mean, this this is biblically based, uh, you know, and I and I I really think that's extremely important. And this guy tells a great story. He actually went to prison over what he did. Uh, and now he's he speaks to groups about you know setting your moral compass and doing things right and worshiping and praying in the workplace. So, you know, there's a lot of uh, you know, I've been making up a list because I'm gonna be writing a book, and I've got a list of about 15 or 20, you know, sort of biblically based principles that I could pull into the book. Uh and you know, your your yours yours may be another one I had.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, bio setting setting the alarm, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I certainly didn't originate it. So yeah, run run with it. It certainly is a way to make it practical. You know, the verse about pray continually. Um it's just one, and I was meditating more on it, and it you know, how we we really need to have altars in our life. Yeah, we need to cut like our lifestyle is worship, right? But there are those moments and times and places. And I think really for us, that's that's those are the altars of our life. And and it could just be setting a simple alarm on your phone that just buzzes, you know, once or twice. And it doesn't have to be like a loud you know, interruption where it's like, okay, we got to stop the meeting right now, and uh, you know, I'm gonna do my thing. But um, but it's it's a it's a it's so powerful, so powerful. Um, well, Fred, uh storiesofgodsgrace.com is the website. Is that the best place for people to connect with you and to learn more about your books?
SPEAKER_03Yep. Uh I also have a big following on Facebook. Uh it's at Fred Sieve, Fred S-I-E-V, and the number one. At Fred Sieve One. Uh, I've had something like a quarter of a million likes and people following that. I do postings most uh every day or every other day, and it's getting a lot. But the website they could order the book. I mean, it's easiest to order the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, but they could also order it on the website, Stories of God's Grace, no dots or dashes, storiesofgodsgrace.com.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well, we'll have that linked in the show notes as well as the the full book titles, but it's Grace Revealed and God Revealed are the books for now. And we we've got a third one on the way. I'm excited about that one as well. Uh well, Fred, thank you so much for your time and for uh your your commitment to helping, uh, just just helping us navigate uh this life to to discover what um to truly encounter God in a personal and authentic way as you have uh and to do that on a on a daily basis. We appreciate you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me on.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.