Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Shear, an initiative of the R. G. W. Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all fishes of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_03On this episode, we're joined by Shay Bynes. And if you're in a season of workaholism, striving, and loneliness and business, kind of feeling like it all depends on you, you really need Shay Bynes. I like to think of Shay as the antidote for the workaholic Christian business professional. And she has really stayed true to the message of just, I mean, a business should be fun. Business shouldn't be drudgery. And uh and and all that can happen whenever we just really prioritize grace over grind, like she talked about in the previous interview on this show. Shea is the host of the Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur Podcast and founder and chief fire igniter of KDE's community of entrepreneurs. She's the author of several best-selling books. KDE's mission is to activate a community of entrepreneurs that will demonstrate the power, presence, passion, and purity of God in the marketplace. And her most recent book, which is going to be the subject and inspiration for this interview, is The Kingdom-driven Entrepreneur's Guide to Doing Business God's Way. Shay, my friend, welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks. Always good to spend time with you, Darren.
SPEAKER_03Shay, how would you explain the difference between your approach to business and some of the most common approaches to business out there today?
SPEAKER_01And in the realm of Christianity or in the realm of entrepreneurship overall?
SPEAKER_03Let's say, yeah, I'm, I mean, I think uh whichever way you want to go with it. How about that?
SPEAKER_01All right. Because I think I'll answer both. All right.
SPEAKER_02So in the world of entrepreneurship as a whole, the whole culture behind being a business owner is like, I'm on team, no sleep, you know, I'm gonna grind this thing out, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work till I'm dead. I'll sleep when I, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead. You know, for right now, this is what I'm about, right? And there's this whole mentality, and it's almost like a badge of honor to just operate in business in your own strength. You know, you make things happen, right? And so that's kind of the culture of entrepreneurship as a whole. And then in the realm of Christians and entrepreneurship, you have, because we learned entrepreneurship, most likely in the in that larger culture, we then find this weird balancing act of trying to like do business in the culture of operating our own strength, but then saying, But I love Jesus and I have faith in Jesus and trying to balance that out. And oftentimes that then turns into almost like a I hustle, but my hustle is holy. I grind, but my grind is godly. But really, you're still fighting the way of how you learned to do business and your identity in Christ, right? And so with kingdom-driven entrepreneurship, we're very specifically saying that your entrepreneurship, your entrepreneurial endeavors are driven, meaning motivated by and propelled forward by the kingdom of God. It's all rooted based off of Matthew 6.33, right? Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And that's not the standard way. I would say that is overwhelmingly not the way that many people do business, Christian or not. And so part of the thing that God has on my heart, which is why I will not shut up about it, is that there is God's best. And God's best is when we work in partnership with him, right? By the infinite power of his grace. So that's some of the nuanced differences in our approach and our mindset in business.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And you know, Shay, lately I've been reading a lot of uh a lot of audiobooks, biographies in particular, and just curious and fascinated by the lives of you know, those that our culture would consider really the kind of pinnacles of success in some of their uh their respective fields, like, you know, Elon Musk, he's like trying to colonize Mars and you know, getting people to switch, you know, over to electric cars, things like that, and then uh just George Washington's biography, which is like over a thousand pages, apparently, because this audio keeps going on and on and on. But you know, just like as I as I read these stories, listen to these stories of these people, I mean, I'm just getting exhausted, like listening because of how busy and hectic these lives are. Um, and I and I think there is there is a sense in our culture that it kind of has to be that way. It's like, yeah, you can you can kind of get by and be uh average, mediocre, whatever. Um, but but to really be a standout, you know, there's this idea that Christians should be the tip top standouts in terms of worldly success, but they should just do it uh, you know, in a in a godly way.
SPEAKER_02So that's right, with integrity based off of biblical principle.
SPEAKER_03With with integrity. So what do you think about this this notion?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I still believe that even if you're saying, hey, I'm gonna grow this business based off of you know high integrity, I'm gonna operate based off of you know product excellence, you know, various things like the fruit of the spirit in action, right, in our business, I believe that's wonderful, right? That's a great model, but it's still, I believe, not God's best, right? And I think that we should all be going for God's best because if we're talking about revealing God's glory on the earth, then it should be to God be the glory, not to us be the glory. And quite honestly, when we build these things operating off of our own strength, trying to make everything, excuse me, make everything happen on our own, whether it's rooted in biblical principle or otherwise, if we're not doing it with God, if we're not doing it in partnership with him and allowing him to be our promoter and getting divine inspiration from him, right? And being able to operate by his grace, then we're still missing out on his best. And his best isn't just what's best for you, his best is what's best for you and everyone who's in your sphere of influence, right? Because we're talking about revealing God's glory on the earth, not revealing our glory on the earth. And a lot of times what I see is there are people that, you know, Christian or otherwise, it's like they'll they'll build something absolutely amazing, but their testimony is one that you would still look at it and say, they'll say to God be the glory, but someone could say, man, yeah, if I if I did that, you know, I could see how you did that, right? But I feel like God's best is when it's like it it is marked by him. It's like you it can't help but reveal the testimony of who he is. You can't even look at it and try to justify it, make some type, no, you have to say, wow, clearly, clearly God was involved in that one, right? And so that's what I believe is his best, because he has everyone on his mind. So that's that's my that's my perspective on it anyway.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha. So do you think that Christians should their businesses should be the top of their industry? You know, that they should be like, you know, the the Elon Musk. It's like, you know, what why is Elon Musk and Steve Jobs and and these guys, like, why are they that like it should be Christians that are, you know, on the cover of Forbes and Fortune and all the rest. Like, is that do you think that's the mindset that that we should have?
SPEAKER_02I think if that's our mindset, that we could still start operating outside of the grace of God on our lives and what he has for us. When we look at something as like, well, I like the Lord didn't even place us on our heart. It's not even your it's it's not even what you're supposed to be doing, but your mindset is on, but I should be at the top of my industry, then that's uh that's like a surefire way to grind, right? Now you're trying to promote yourself in your own strength to the top of your industry, and that might mean that might not even be the path God has for you. So I think it's the wrong starting place to say, well, I feel like, you know, if I'm in this industry, then I should be aiming for the top, right? If that's what God has for you, then you'll make yourself there. You'll make your way there with him. And he would have elevated you, right? But I don't think it's the right starting point to think that way. I mean, I think a lot of people, there could be really interesting conversations around, you know, the the concept around, you know, Seven Mountains and all of those things. And it's like I agree with some of the things that are coming out of that, but I also think that it puts some people in the wrong mindset and how they approach their businesses. I really do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, and you know, sometimes we can use biblical passages to kind of advocate for this kind of grinding mentality, like, you know, looking at at uh where where Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, like in every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in the in the in his whole kingdom. And so we can see that and say, oh, well, that you gotta be as a Christian, you're you gotta be 10 times better, 10 times better, work 10 times harder, like be 10 times faster, make 10 times more money. And and yet, but when you look at that passage, it's it's in every matter of wisdom and understanding. So like that's really the starting point. And you can't have that outside of what you're talking about, which is relationship.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Those are like those are heavenly assets. I talk about that in the book, actually, that whole thing around knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. Like those are heavenly assets. And when we try to operate, you know, an earthly wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, that'll get you in the grind. If that if everything has to be based off of that, you're gonna do a whole lot of grinding.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, be 10 times better in in those heavenly assets. Yes, absolutely. That's right. If you're wanting to know, like how should we be the standouts 10 times better in those heavenly assets that Shea talks about? Yes, you know, because and yeah, you we might not look like on the we're on the cover of force, because oftentimes, like the pattern of scripture is typically, you know, we're like the number two guy or gal. We're the and God has a way of keeping us humble because sometimes what would happen is, you know, if we were really the the tip top, like if if Israel was the largest landmass in all the world, uh, you know, with the most expansive borders, then like how easy would it be uh for that to kind of go to there, even with such a small nation, how how there's been a struggle with that, you know, no matter what size of success and blessing we have, um so easy. But yeah, I love how you define success in the book.
SPEAKER_02Actually, why not I want to hear you you say it about radical faith and radical obedience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, radical faith plus radical obedience equals success. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02So, because this whole concept of success, a lot of times people think that success is like this particular outcome. So if I reach this particular thing, now I am successful. But in the kingdom of God, if we are operating led by him, we are operating in faith, right? And we're also operating in obedience. So as God's calling us to do certain things, there's the obedience, which is just this is what it says in the word. And then there's just this walking this thing out with God and being able to make decisions and to change decisions and the course correct based off of his leading. If we are operating in that thing, we are already success. You might not have seen the manifestation of what's on the other side of that process yet. But I I really believe that if we have the mindset that that's success, then that puts us in a healthy place. And then we begin, as we walk that out, to see all the fruit, all you know, all the manifestation that happens as a result of walking with God that way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, because we're definitely called to have influence. I mean, that's what discipleship is all about. It's just that, you know, God's from God's standpoint, success is probably gonna look different. Um than what the what you might see featured in Forbes and and um you know, we see this like college admissions scandal going on. Oh yeah. Like there's like that's that's kind of where that ultimately leads that approach.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's like smoke and mirrors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. It's just it's just not real. Yes. You know, I I just had somebody um, you know, as you know, published books for a living, and um somebody was asking me about this other company's model, and um, and it's basically like we're gonna make you a number one New York Times bestseller. In fact, I got a text message. I I can't stand those like you know, bot text messages, but it says you have two hours left to become a New York Times bestseller. Literally, like in two more hours, this window is gonna close. Will not become a New York Times bestseller, but sanity. There's just so much appealing because it it really appeals to the to the flesh, right? Like, I mean, this is what you're talking about, is really the antidote. Uh that's right.
SPEAKER_02And I don't think we should confuse position with influence at all, right? I mean, kingdom influence is not the same thing as positioning from the world's standpoint.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's so good. Wow, can you unpack that some more?
SPEAKER_02Because we were talking earlier about this whole thing around being at the top, being at the top, being on the cover of this, the cover of that, etc. You can have massive kingdom influence, right? Kingdom meaning the ways of God, you know, God's way of being, God's way of doing, God's way of doing and being, and all of that, right? You can have kingdom influence in an industry and people's lives and your entire sphere of influence, yet still not be in a number one position as the world would see it. Number one on the Forbes list, number one in Entrepreneur Magazine, number one on the New York Times bestseller list. Whatever that looks like, it's not the same. They are not equivalent at all. We're talking about something in the realm of heaven and we're talking about something in the realm of the earth. And those are two separate things. And I think we put way too much stock in the earthly things and not enough in what's happening spiritually, which has an impact on the earth.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially entrepreneurs tend to be very competitive. Uh, I know I'm that way, and and so I want to be better than I was yesterday. And the better I'm, you know, I want to make sure that things are moving forward financially in the business and so on. I think we're for the most part, that's how we that, I mean, it's hard to build a business if you're not looking at some of those things, but it's it's a matter of like what what are the goals, what are the metrics that we're looking at. That's right.
SPEAKER_02What's driving you, what's leading you, and what's driving you? Because there's a healthy way to want to progress, right? I mean, in the word says we go from glory to glory. We should, the whole idea of progression, that's a scriptural way of doing things, right? It's to progress in the things of God, to progress in the things that we're doing, to progress in the dreams He's put on our hearts. That's a good thing. But being driven by that progress will also lead you into the grind. Yeah. Will also lead you into doing things that you have no business doing in the timing in which you have no business doing them.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I love how you use the term heavenly assets, uh, because when we look at, you know, a balance sheet, it's it's hard to quantify that. Like your accountant does not is not gonna ask you, okay, so you know, we're doing your assets and liabilities right now. Like, tell me about your heavenly assets. You gotta make sure that we have this thing, you know, looking the way it needs to. That's right. But that's that's the that's the challenge, is that the world, at least in the short term, doesn't really care about that. Um that they but from God's perspective and what really matters in eternity, I mean, that's we should we should be like it's like it says of of Daniel and his friends, like 10 times better in these in these aspects. Like, yeah, seek to be 10 times. In fact, they were quite confident in their the fact that they were 10 times better. They're like, you know, well, hey, let's let's put it to the test. You know, I think about yeah, and Elijah, like he was very confident that his God would answer by fire. Um and so like there's there's definitely it's it's okay to be competitive, but just for the right things, right? Isn't that what you're seeing?
SPEAKER_02And there's they were confident in their God, they were confident in their identity and how God works through them. They were confident in him, right? That's where their confidence came from, right? So I think it's all a matter of just where's what our mindsets, that's everything in Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur is focused on what's our mindset and what's our heart posture. I mean, because those things make all the difference in terms of how we approach everything, including business, right? So it's almost like there's, I know some people use this term like confidence, like there's confidence, but then there's confidence, right? You know, I don't use that phrase, but I understand the high whole idea behind it, which is just like my confidence is rooted in, you know, uh and in my God and mine my alignment with what I'm supposed to be doing. And so I know that God's working through that. It's not me just trying to, I'm not just competing for a competition's sake and just well, well, they've got this, and so I want to get this, and then you get all off, all off your own alignment and doing stuff that's other people's stuff, right? But it's like, no, you're confident with where you are and where you're headed and where God's where God's leading you. And when you're there, and I gotta tell you, I know a lot about this because I've done a lot of things a lot of different ways, but when you are in alignment, there is so much freedom in that, and just standing in that and just watching how God moves through that alignment versus you trying to chase after everything and try to compete with other people based off of what they're doing, which has nothing to do with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, that confidence is is so huge. And and to even really stay in the gift, stay in the the calling that you have, and that's that's what you're real big on. And and that there is the fruit of that is collaboration. Yes, like it opens you up to uh to to be able to to work with other people and to tap into some of those other skill sets that you just either you don't have, you don't have in the same measure, or you don't have the time or the calling to go that that direction, and you're gonna be able to help somebody else grow in that uh in that calling, in that, in that role, in that assignment. That's right. The body of Christ. Yeah. Body. Exactly. So you're working with so many kingdom-driven entrepreneurs. Um, within kingdom entrepreneur, how do you cultivate this this approach uh in these Christian business professionals and any examples that you could share among the tribe of somebody that's really living this out?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the way we do it is kind of we have a kind of a three-fold approach, which is inspire, teach, and mentor. So on the inspirational side, it's like putting out the invitation. And that's what we do through media, through our podcast and now through film as well, is just let's show examples of what it really can look like if you actually do business in partnership with God. It's yielded to God, He's the ultimate CEO, but you are doing business with him, right? What does that look like? And how could that impact your life and your business and others, right? So it's almost like that's the inspirational invitation. Then if people are inspired by that and they're like, wow, that actually does sound good. I'd like to see what that looks like. How do I do that? Because no one teaches how to do that, right? Then we actually have a course that's called Firestarter School. And so we kind of take people through just some practical foundations of what that actually looks like. And then for those who are just like, man, this is great, but nobody around me is actually operating this way. I need community around me. I need mentoring. I like need like I need a family of people around me so I can seriously walk this thing out and grow in doing business this way, then we have our igniters mentoring program. And so it's been really great because then once people kind of come into that fold and igniters, it kind of opens up a whole nother, you know, a whole nother slew of things that we do with igniters to help them to grow, uh help them to get aligned and stay aligned and grow and collaborate and all of that good stuff. So everything that's kind of in a book, you know, our Graceover Grime book and my, you know, doing business God's way book, all of those things helping people to just walk that out in the context of community. And it's been really powerful. Um, some of the things you're asking for, examples, it's interesting because some people will come into something like igniters with a preconceived notion, which is, okay, I'm, you know, my business is doing this right now, and I want my business to be doing better. And so I'm gonna join this program and we're gonna focus on my business so that I can build my business. And then they'll show up, and what they'll realize as they're growing in intimacy with God and learn to be led by him is that God wants to speak to them about their marriage right now, right? It will have nothing to do with their business. And then when they're getting certain other things in alignment, all of a sudden it's like, wow, I just got this really great idea in business. Oh, wow, God just really brought this person to my life, or you know, those various things.
SPEAKER_01So we've seen so many kind of cool things happen where some people come in with one expectation and in the process of kind of going through things and working through things, they realize that, oh wow, there's some other things that need to, you know, get in place.
SPEAKER_02Some of my favorite stories are one of my team members actually, she's a mentor now uh in Igniters. But when she came in, she was a had a particular type of business and a vision for the future that seemed so bizarre and like, I don't know how in the world that would happen, type of thing, right? It was seemed so far from where she was right now at that time. And so it was like a couple, it was like a good two or three years before she's starting to see, wait, okay, I can kind of see how maybe some of these things will come together. And she made a shift, she completely abandoned her other business, stepped into the new thing that God had for her. And every day, I mean, I literally get a message from her every day how she is in complete and utter awe about how God is moving when she got into alignment, when she switched the season, because the season for the other stuff was up. And when she was bold enough to step into the new one, how God is just pulling all the pieces together for her. So those are like my favorite stories when people really get into alignment and something that they thought was just so crazy, and I have no idea how God would use me in that way and what that's gonna look like. And to watch them walk that out is so beautiful. And in her case, she not only has a particular assignment for how she helps people, but she also has an assignment for shifting the way things are done in her industry. And so to see her walking that out is beautiful because we're talking about kingdom influence. She doesn't have to be the number one person in that area. Perhaps that's what'll happen in the future, but she doesn't have to be. But yet I'm sitting here watching the influence that she's having and the shifts that people are making in their businesses and getting aligned with kingdom thought and kingdom ways and how they do things in a business like you know, in a in a business in an industry that's completely jacked up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. What you're saying about alignment, it made me think of that saying alignment before assignment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, like when we get aligned and really get the like it's interesting, like one of the biblical terms for skill that's used in the Bible, it it's not just sort of the um, you know, like um, like I know how to do taxes and I know how to like make a widget, things like that, but it literally means understanding and wisdom.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And and and that's what we need to be 10 times better at than than anyone, like than yourself last last year. Like be 10 times better than you were last year. I like to think of competition, like competing against who we were last year, you know, who we were yesterday. And uh, and and when we get that, that's what precedes the assignment. That's what you're talking about. Like, because until you get that alignment with God and your priorities right, then it's so it's impossible to truly know, or at least to truly be confident that you're doing what God's best plan for your life.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. And then a lot of times you just there's certain things you're just not going to access because you're just not in a you're not positioned or prepared for it, right? And so getting to a point where that's why it's like, how are we led? Like our friend, you know, Dr. Jim, right? Like, what's leading you? How are you being led? I think that's that's really important in all of this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So kingdomdriven entrepreneur.com is the website that everybody needs to go and check out. And the book that uh we've kind of been unpacking a little bit in this uh in this interview, there's so much, so much more. The Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur's Guide to Doing Business God's Way. Shay, as we wrap it up, what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our listeners today?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say a parting piece of advice would be that if you're listening to this conversation and you're saying to yourself, that sounds interesting. Um, I don't know exactly what that looks like. The very first thing, the very first tip I like to give people is to get in a place where you actually invite God into your work and what you do and have and be willing to have actually time where you'll actually have your plans before him and actually lift those plans up to God and ask God his thoughts on what you're doing. And even I I dare ask you to try having your little to-do list and asking God which of those things you should start with and what things you have no business doing that day. Just inviting him, just in little simple ways, because what that begins to do is kind of cultivate just uh greater intimacy with God, inviting him in every aspect of what you do. And for some people who don't think that God's really speaking to them, you'll actually realize that he is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Amen. Shay, this is uh it's always such a pleasure chatting with you, always such an encouragement, and uh just appreciate you, appreciate the message you're bringing to the body of Christ, to the culture, and may God continue to bless uh everything you're involved in.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Darren. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.