Welcome back to the Theology of Business Podcast with host Darren Shear. This is the show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God in business to help you make disciples of your company, your industry, and your community. If you want to learn more about how to do business for the glory of God and shape culture through discipling the business world, this show is for you. You can get more of the Theology of Business Institute's interviews and teachings like the one you're about to hear at theologyofbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_02On this episode, we're joined by Mike Sherrow. Mike is the president and CEO of C12 Group, the nation's largest network of Christian CEOs, business owners, and executives. And before joining C12, Mike owned a healthcare strategy consulting group and served as an executive pastor for a church in Texas. So now, how many members in C12, Mike?
SPEAKER_01We serve a little over 2,100 right now.
SPEAKER_02Okay, wow. And to be a member, I heard somewhere or read somewhere that these are CEOs of companies that are anywhere from $10 to $50 million in value in revenue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's all over the map. I think the range as small as a million up to, I think our largest is about a six billion dollar company, but most are going to be in the five to a hundred million dollar range for sure. Our minimum is it we're definitely focused on businesses of teams. So you know, 10 plus employees.
SPEAKER_02Got it. And um about how many employees are represented under the leadership of those CEOs?
SPEAKER_01That's a great question. It's it's probably around uh four or five hundred thousand U.S. employees and a little more. Um that's that's a that's a tricky number for us to keep up with. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um not to mention all of the vendors and the board members and all the other stakeholders that come in contact with those companies. So I I mean you're you're really like a bishop of a bunch of marketplace pastors. Is it is it okay if I call you bishop, Mike?
SPEAKER_01That's actually a that's a funny joke. We have uh I'll decline on that, but I'll say it is pretty awesome if you think about um one of our favorite exercises is to get a bunch of business owners in a city together and have them just do the math on their employees, like you asked me, their customers, their key suppliers, and just to quantify that and then to uh to help them realize this the the mission field they steward. I was in Nashville a few weeks ago and I did that exercise with a group of business owners there, and I think we had uh 30 businesses, and those 30 businesses had 2.4 million people that they were like directly intentionally connected with on a monthly basis. And I said, okay, that's you could put all the mega churches in Nashville together, and it wouldn't touch a fraction of what this congregation is collectively. So what are you doing with that mission field? And that's a pretty sobering perspective.
SPEAKER_02Wow. And and so you've been you've worked in the local church as an executive pastor before you uh you really stepped into C-12 and started your company. Uh, but then before you became CEO, I understand that you led the fastest growing region of C-12 in the world because you guys are now global. And and so you've seen the transformation and the impact that happens in the lives of these of these people, these business owners. And I also heard you, as I was uh prepping for this interview, I heard you say that you're seeing more discipleship happening in these small to medium-sized businesses than what you've seen in 97% of today's churches. So, what do you mean by that? And how is C-12 making disciples of Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a bunch of stuff. I'd actually have to turn the reins over for the fastest growing area, our fastest growing uh region would actually now be Curitiba Brazil. So I've been I've been blown past, which I hope I hope I've dropped the bottom of the list. Um and I was part of a financial services startup and then worked for the a big Fortune 50 company, Walgreens, for eight years before doing some church work. Um that's really worked out faith and work stuff. When we talk about making disciples, um part of it's just a given. Um Crown Ministries did a study years ago with Barna on the CEO's mind share of people. So if you think about it, people spend way more hours at work than they do in church. And a lot of non-safe people are going to work, they're not going to church. So you've got a very different mission field of a lot more intensity. But yeah, our typical small business, small medium business, is seeing anywhere between four and seven salvations every year, um, and then is discipling between 28 and 35 people a year and doing about $200,000 of missions work. The average U.S. church sees less than two salvations a year. And so you've got you've got bright spots, you've got church planting uh congregations, you've got some really missional churches that are blowing the bell curve on that. But these uh these little small businesses are really becoming for-profit gospel enterprises that are you know uh winning business awards and growing. In fact, I just talked to a marketing guy, we're doing a little slide on um like a higher percentage of C12 CEOs made the Inc. 5000 list than any other peer group in America. So their their for-profit businesses are growing, but they also happen to be reaching tons of people. And that's and and in the process, making the CEO um, I had lunch with a CEO yesterday. He's five months in C-12. I asked him, What has C-12 done for you? I wanted to like say, like, I'm done, I'm I'm leaving lunch, this is a high. He said, It helped me refine Christ. What do you mean? He's like, Well, I've been in church, I thought I knew Christ, but I was not walking with Christ in my business. And when I began to walk with him through my business, it is I either didn't know him before or now I really do know him. And so Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, and and that stat you gave about the salvations. I mean, somebody might say, well, uh, that's what we have these stadium meetings for, uh, you know, packing people in the stadiums and and having the altar call. But but what that part misses is the discipleship part, which really is only even possible in the throes of everyday life. And so much of that happens in um in the workplace, which is why this is such a powerful model of discipleship. Um, what would be an example, one of your favorite examples from uh maybe one of the C12 company CEOs of how they're actually making disciples in the workplace?
SPEAKER_01Oh man, so many. Um, I just I mean, I literally uh I was just in Dallas last week and I was meeting with a CEO from Florida who runs a construction company called Dallas One. So it's in Tampa Bay, Florida, but called Dallas. That's its own story. And someone asked him, Well, how missional is your business? It's a construction company. He's like, Well, we've we've shared the gospel intentionally directly in person with about 10,000 people, and we've seen 500 people accept Christ through our business. You go, okay, uh, how's that? And he's been so strategic that from the moment an applicant enters the door to interviews for a job, that they're getting to know the story and testimony of the owner and his motivation for doing this business. And then they've got chaplains and Bible studies, and they've got programs and they're caring for people's marriages and they're doing financial stewardship stuff, and they're just all along the way. As he he would say, he had um he had uh an analyst from India doing a project as a consultant for him. And at the end of the project, the analyst from India said, Can I could I stay and work for you? And he said, Why? He said, Because you actually love me. I've never felt loved in a workplace, and the things you guys have poured into me here, I've just never experienced anywhere else. And so we have member companies that are seeing hundreds and thousands of people saved, but like you said, not a rally. These are not hands raised in a big rally. This is relational, and then hey, let me walk with you. And usually those decisions are happening in a process, and then they get to continue the process. And I was at a warehousing company picnic a few years ago for a big 700-employee warehouse company, and one of the doc workers came up and he said, In 27 years of kind of being in and out of church, I've never been shown what it looks like to follow Jesus like I have here, where it's not just a Bible study that they have those, it's every business meeting. How are we doing this in a way that honors God? And what would a biblical principle be for this? And um, and then stopping going, hey Darren, I know you don't agree with me on Jesus, but I want you to let you know I love you, and that doesn't stop me from wanting the best for you while you're here. And so things like that.
SPEAKER_02Wow, and I know that there are stories like that in every company. I've I've met a number of C12 members and I've heard similar similar stories. And it just if if only our churches could not it's not an either or by any means, of course, but just locking arms with these business owners in particular. And really, I mean, that's probably where at least 85% of the Christian workforce in the US is spending the majority of their waking hours, and it's more around the world where they don't have you know private sectors and uh such large public sectors, uh, but just the the power and potential. And you guys are are really uh first fruits, I think, uh, in a lot of ways, of at least with this new generation of what God is doing uh to reach the the culture beyond just the the four walls of the church. But you also use this phrase permission to play, uh to have this level of influence with employees and in the culture that your members have, uh, companies need permission to play. And you were you were kind of describing that as a lot of these awards that the culture looks at to say, okay, I can there's val I'll give them validation. They're they're doing good stuff aside from any of the Jesus stuff. Yep. I mean, this is a best place to work, this is on 500. Do you have some stats or or or even just to give us an idea of for the C12 companies that that show how they're performing compared to their peers in various industries?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we've um we're a for-profit model. So that was by design. Our founder wanted to make sure that if we weren't delivering the kind of value that was worth someone paying dues for, that they would leave. And we have a money-back guarantee that if you don't, if your business doesn't make more value than you pay to be a member, then we'll refund you all your dues. So that all from the beginning has created a results matter orientation. And then our membership plaque says Matthew 5.16, you know, let your good works shine before men that they glorify the Father. So we take seriously that if we're doing this well, uh, we should be winning Inc. awards and best place to work awards and all those kind of things. So what we oftentimes see when someone says, well, because we'll we'll share the stat that C12 members over time are typically three times as profitable, grow faster, weather recessions better, and they'll go, well, how? Why? I mean, it's not like we know something secret about business that you couldn't learn from Harvard or any other good peer group. Um, part of it's our process. We've got a process for perpetual accountability and learning that helps create faster learning cycles and uh creates leader humility, which is intrinsically helpful for any business. But there's also things that when you're connecting with purpose and uh driving the kind of cultures we create, employee engagement goes way up. Uh turnover drops down. You know, when someone feels uh loved and is actually loved, the uh they don't leave and they work harder and your company navigates problems better. And so, like in Houston, there's a big logistics company that watched their employee engagement go from um 39% to 76%, which is huge in the world of employee engagement. Um, that drives absolute performance advantage over all their competitors, um, gets them all the awards you get, and then people you get a chance to give a reason for the hope you have. You know, I remember one of my favorite things that this can't be boiled down to a formula, is a guy watched his turnover rate drop from 300% to about 100%, and his margins triple due to how he's treated people. And a peer in his industry called says, Hey, what's the secret? And he said, Man, I don't mean to be cliche, but about four years ago, God has broke my heart that I was using people and looking at people, but not seeing people. And I began to really love them, and it's just changed our whole company. And the guy said, Well, what was your trick for making them think you loved them? And he said, Well, uh, I actually do. Like the gospel made me actually love them. The trick. Wow. And he was like, Oh, so it's not a program. Like, no, you you actually this has to come in here. Um they outperform and they um yeah, it's it's part of the both and we believe business as ministry, so God's glorified by a healthy culture. It's I think it's just as uh reckless for a Christian to put a fish on the wall and mistreat their employees and have a you know a poorly managed PL as it is to have a morally clean business and not be talking about Jesus. Like it's a it's a both and proposition.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think sometimes when I hear faith in the workplace, uh the um trying to honor God and the way you lead your company sometimes just kind of gets camped out in the employee care programs aspect of it. Yep. But it it's not just the the love aspect. Obviously, that is you know paramount, right? But also even just the practical nuts and bolts issues. Like I got to uh uh be a part of um a meeting there in Houston, here in Houston with uh you know Steve Vano's group. And um, and it was there were literally decisions and aha moments, light bulbs going off that were half a million, uh I mean, yeah, half a million dollars. I would I think I tallied it up somewhere around $600,000 worth of revelation pertaining. I think that particular day, there was uh um, you know, like a loss prevention kind of security, employee theft, things like that that don't often enter the conversation in the faith and work arena in my in my experience, but it was just a highly practical teaching combined with the the heart matters, you know, and and those kinds of motivations. And so why would you say that members come and why do they stay? If you had to really boil it down.
SPEAKER_01It's a great question. So members come usually because they they want to grow in some way, and they're trying to figure out how to do it in a way that honors God. So they've usually at some point they're either naturally a learner and just hungry to learn, or they're lonely and going, I don't know what I don't know. Um, but they're looking for results, and then they stay because it changes their life. Um they they stay because it changes their their marriage, their walk with God, the reason they do business. I was I was meeting with a CEO of a manufacturing company on Thursday last week, and he said he was in a secular peer group for nine years, and he had come to see 12 a couple years ago, and and he said, Wow, I came, just wanted to know, do you guys have any best practices I've not seen yet? And it'd be good to do it in a God-honoring way. And he said, I it's changed how I do my business, why I do my business, who I'm doing it for, the way I think about it, uh, the whole disposition has changed for him. And so they stay because of a whole bunch of things that get unlocked. But really, we're like if you're just wanting to coast, we're not, it's not a good old boy club, it's it's a hungry place for getting results. We just did a series on pricing strategies this fall. And I mean, I got emails from key players. We have a program for about 600 executives in the country that are for the management teams of these companies. And I got an email from saying, Man, I took the lesson from this week's meeting back to my company and I made us $250,000 of gross margin in the last five days. My boss loves me. Thanks. You know, so it's real business stuff, highly practical. Um, because again, it's an integrated proposition.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think for me, walking out of that meeting, the thing that struck me in terms of wow, you you really can't get this anywhere, was the level of accountability and the way that the members would, when they would say that they're gonna commit to something, they would actually write it down and and it would be tracked. So you show up to the next meeting, you either did it or you're gonna pay, you know, put a $20 bill in the hat. And you know, and then they would take the money and give it to uh some some sort of uh charitable cause or something like that. Yeah. Um but I I mean, obviously, the it's it's not about the $20, but just you you have people coming with a growth mindset, yeah, which is just so powerful and so rare. And and then these are people that are willing to, and there's a but the system that you guys have in place to help them stay accountable and to follow through on the things that because it's so easy to just say, oh yeah, that that that's a great idea. I know I need to do that. But then if you don't come back a month later or a couple weeks later and have to, you know, really own up to that, then it can so easily fall by the wayside. Because given how busy these CEOs are, right? I mean, so what would you say is the role of accountability? How much of a factor is that?
SPEAKER_01So it's funny you tease that out, Darren. I didn't know you were gonna ask that. Um, because I'm I'm a stat guy, and as a marketer, one of the funny things is if I was to say, come to C12 for accountability, no one's Googling, like, I want more accountability in my life. Um, but if I say the single thing that drives the value for members, uh the average incoming CEO, I've monitored this for years, their natural predisposition is to execute about 63% of the things they say and know they should do. 63%. About a year later in C12, they're doing about 87%, and really mature members get like the 95% range. Well, that that performance gap closure is incredible. Like that's incredibly valuable. And so, yeah, we we we teach tons of stuff and we got great tools and resources, but I think the the peer accountability in a process to help you choose what's important, turn off some of the chaos factor, let's scale things, get you to a place of working on it, not in it. Um, but then actually holding you accountable, say, hey Darren, last month you said the most important thing for you to do as a steward of that company was these two things. You didn't do them. Like you're accountable for that before God. Like, let's you put your word out there, fix it. Um, that creates a healthy pattern that is a performance lift more than anything else. And sometimes I feel like 60% of our program is the justification to help a CEO explain why he's gonna spend a day with us, knowing that there's two or three special things in our meeting that's actually gonna be the 10x delivery of value.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. It seems because you can have the greatest content in the world, but you guys have amazing content and and people that are there for the right reasons. But if there isn't that facilitator and in the system to hold people's feet to the fire, uh to help them follow through on the things that they already knew they needed to do, then it it just doesn't fit it'll just fizzle out. I and I think uh people would just leave if because the transformation wouldn't happen. But that's a powerful stat about the 63%. And and these are that's among CEOs, right?
SPEAKER_01Right, Christians, Christian CEOs who are serious-minded. The problem is as as uh as leaders, everyone's asking you for stuff. And if you're a Christian, you have this grace compulsion where you wanna you want to say yes. So one of the biggest challenges is most CEOs say yes to everything, and they need to say you need to say yes to the very important thing with clarity, so you can then say no to a lot of other really good stuff. And so this kind of terminal niceness, we call it sloppy agapy, where uh out of love you say, sure, yeah, yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, I'll follow up on that. When you know you can't, you don't have time to. And so part of it's helping bring disciplined and uh diligent focus to a CEO.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So this so now C12 is how many years old? 26. 26 years, and you stepped into this role what a couple years ago?
SPEAKER_01Two and a half years ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, two and a half years ago. What what has changed in in terms of going after the next generation of CEOs? What how how have how has the model or the content or the delivery, any of those things, how have you had to adapt for the for the future?
SPEAKER_01So yeah, our model's been going through a lot of innovation cycles the last number of years. So we've um you know, we've gone from uh you know refreshing and reformatting our actual content delivery to incorporating video and technology tools and interconnectivity between meetings. Um we've changed a lot of our vision to be around creating high performance uh communities of peers within a city. So our our focus before used to be on having groups in as many cities as possible. We certainly our vision is to still do that, but we've changed our pacing to focus on going. Deeper in cities to create communities and tribes that can really be kinetic and transformative on that community. And that creates a different kind of energy. Our average demographic of both our chair, leaders, and our members has dropped about a decade in just the last 18 months. And so I actually think our model is primed to be most relevant for this next generation of leaders. Gen Xers and millennials are increasingly not the boomers who may have had a success-then significance mindset. They're kind of intolerant of a delayed significance, looking for purpose today. They're hungry for mentorship and learning and accountability and let's go change the world. And that's that's our MO. And so I actually see an increased interest level and a quicker adoption of a lot of our core product. We've decided we've innovated delivery and style and tools and uh things like that. But it's been um we're just talking, we call it how to build a rocket. We've been in this constant innovation cycle for the last three, four years.
SPEAKER_02So I graduated from Regent University, and from what I understand now, you can actually get credit in the business program, right? Yeah, you I could have saved you time and money, man. Yeah, gosh. Where were you where were you back then? Yeah. Um, but but that brings up another point that the model of these round tables, I think, in reaching the millennials, uh I mean, really anybody for that matter. Uh, we just kind of done the the um kind of the guru model standing in front of the class for so long. Yep, but the next generation, they want to be heard, they want to talk it out, they we want to uh be participating in our learning, not just sort of you know, kind of uh regurgitating facts that we uh heard from the um from the guru. Yep. And and so I I think that's another aspect of the model that's so powerful. Uh, what would be a parting piece of advice, Mike, you would leave with our uh listeners today?
SPEAKER_01So A, I believe um, Jesus never sent his disciples out in groups of two, church planners out in groups of two. There's really not a biblical model of doing things alone, and yet most CEOs feel very, very alone. So I would say whether you're in you know Alaska where I'm from, or whether you're in a metropolis with group options, get other believers in a group and be wrestling together on best practices and learning. Don't let what you don't know limit what you could know, um, find others, and then be careful about who your wise counsel is. So it's so often for people to just go, well, you're a CEO, I'll take counsel from you. But if their definition of success is just money, if they lose their family, lose their friends, you know, this is not our God, that's bad counsel. So choose your counsel, be in a group of some kind, and um step back and go. It's it's so easy to say stewardship, but if I believe that Jesus, I belong to Jesus and my business is his, then I should then he's the actual owner and I should ask how he wants it ran. And that's um not enough owners stop and really ask what does that mean? And that's a that's a that's Alice in Wonderland's kind of rabbit hole. That's a pretty big question that takes years to unravel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well said. C12group.com is the website. Mike, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. Uh, encourage people to go if if you're if it sounds like you're in the market for a group like C12, um definitely go and check out, find out what's available in your area. Uh, they are there, it's the real deal. I I can attest from my own uh just even that one meeting that I was a participant in. Uh, but you guys are doing great work. May God continue to bless the work you're doing, your family, and thanks again. Thanks, Darren.
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