Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Sheer, an initiative of the RTW Denham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all pages of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_02On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Justin Kagan. Justin holds a PhD in agricultural economics from the University of California, Davis, with over 15 years of experience working in the field of development economics. He has managed and worked on numerous agricultural social protection and other poverty alleviation projects. And as the founder and CEO of Kagan's Consulting, he has worked in numerous developing countries, several East and West African countries, Latin American countries, and countries of Eastern Europe and Asia. And his consulting company has partnered with several UN agencies, as well as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the UC Davis NGOs, and government ministries. And you can check out his website and learn more at KagansConsulting.com. Justin, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Darren. Thanks a lot for inviting me. I'm honored.
SPEAKER_02Well, tell us about some of the projects you're working on around the world to alleviate poverty.
SPEAKER_01Sure. I'm working in a lot in Africa. I work with uh, for example, nutritionists in uh Cameroon and Ethiopia. And we're trying to design more cost-effective ways to deliver micronutrients like vitamin A, zinc, iron to uh pregnant women and children under five and women of reproductive age. And so I do the sort of economic analysis. The company does the economic analysis, and we we contribute to hopefully saving lives uh with making things more cost effective and figuring out what the best systems might be to deliver these micronutrients. So that's just one of the um exciting projects. There are other projects that we do, like in Malawi and Zambia, to evaluate the a cash transfer program to the poor or the fertilizer subsidy, and to see what that impact economically and on poverty uh those programs do. And so we work with UN agencies like UNFAO, UNICEF, and uh also private foundations like Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, um, private universities, University of California Davis, and things you've already mentioned. So these are some exciting things that we're doing. And um, we've also worked with the Roma um in in Europe, uh, which is kind of an underserved uh uh uh population and um in need of help. And I I wrote my thesis on how the church um can help uh the Roma people to sort of get educated and um alleviate poverty among those that group that's uh uh also known as the gypsies. So um it's exciting to work in this field. It's a passion of mine, and I'm thankful to God that he completely led me in this area. Um I was uh just very quickly, I was praying in Croatia when I was living there. I was praying, you know, what to do with my life, and it came agricultural economics. Uh this was after I graduated from economics, uh, but it came specifically agricultural economics. I never grew up on a farm, but really just felt that leading from God to go into it applied to PhD studies and got into the University of Davis, which is world-renowned for agricultural economics. And so ever since then, I learned that a lot of the poor they work in agriculture, small farms, and so on. And it's been a passion of mine even before I knew God, since I was 10 years old. Um watching Le Miz in this in San Francisco and looking at the poor homeless. Um, you know, I've always had a passion to help the poor, and now I get to do it uh full time. And so it's been really exciting to see how God has led me in this area.
SPEAKER_02So I would imagine that many, you know, a big part of the solution for alleviating poverty is private enterprise. And uh specifically I'm curious how how free uh how frequently do you work with businesses that are uh Christian-led in this effort to alleviate poverty in some of these countries?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm uh I have a um I have a business group at my church called uh Conquering the Business Mountain. It's kind of based on sort of uh the vision uh you probably have mentioned, you know, Seven Mountain vision of Lance, you know, uh Bill Bright and I think Cunningham. Um and so we try to sort of we we think that God is is putting his finger on Christians in business now. Um and we're still sort of trying to work that out. Uh that's kind of a mystery. Uh I also do this sort of um economic diplomacy and integrity forum where we look specifically at what Jesus says about business, uh, about economics, about politics, and we try to get business leaders, mostly Christian business leaders, that that have sort of uh been successful, but also not corrupt, um and you know, not taking bribes and so on. Um and more than that, obviously it's more than that, but but at least that they've then been people of integrity, and uh we can we've shown that to to young people to try to raise up a new generation of leaders. So definitely private enterprise is part of it. On the Kagan's consulting side, I I admittedly have not had um you know a lot of contact uh with private Christian businesses working in Africa or things like that, um, except for perhaps the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which is founded by a private business person, but not a Christian, uh, as far as I know.
SPEAKER_02Um and so would that mean that most of these uh these companies, organizations you're working with are often not Christian-led? And it and if so, uh what what do you think the problem is with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um uh unfortunately I I would say that most of them are not uh Christian-led, although they have you know hearts that and who knows, you know, they may find the Lord. But um I think it's just a bit sad. I think it's maybe because maybe private businesses, Christian private businesses have not sort of fully been aware, at least as far as I've seen, probably there are good examples, but have not sort of fully grasped the need for them to work in places like Africa and you know, work more in poverty issues. You know, they're more focused, it seems, you know, on running the business with integrity, which is great, you know, um, not doing corruption, you know, paying tax as well, things like that, but have not sort of extended that and said, okay, well, what can we do to change society, like helping with the poor and so on, besides just giving our tithe to church. And, you know, I think that we really need to continue to Christians in business need to continue to step out to look at poverty and other problems, environmental issues, things like that.
SPEAKER_02So typically the organizations that are gonna make a financial investment and hiring Kagan's consulting as an example typically are are gonna be organizations that are not Christian led, but they they evidently have probably more resources in a lot of cases devoted toward uh toward this issue of international poverty alleviation. Would I mean is that a fair assessment?
SPEAKER_01I I would say so. Uh it it it does take some resources to also hire us and hire PhDs and graduate students and so on. So I mean, I'm not against um private enterprises and you know would love to partner with some of them in the future. Um, that just has not yet uh happened. Um so I think I'm not sure. Yeah, it would be exciting, of course, to work with Christians on business issues. And I have I have worked a little bit uh on a smaller scale, like you said. Uh maybe it's a resource issue that they're not uh as investing, or I'm not can or I'm not or personally not I'm not connected with you know as many uh Christians in in business, in large businesses.
SPEAKER_02So you and you're obviously very uh very much uh intertwined in the academic community around this subject of how how do you actually alleviate poverty on a macro uh macro level, and and so it it just sounds like it's not uh necessarily characterized by I mean, when we think about the motive of being a Christ follower and following the example of Jesus and caring for the poor and so on, that this is not in terms of who's leading the charge in this area, it it doesn't sound like there's a heavily a heavy characterization of Christianity at the at the forefront.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, I must say that uh I have come in contact a lot, although I haven't worked with them, uh, but I've come in contact a lot with World Vision. Um, and they're doing their resources, I think, are doing you know incredibly uh they are almost equivalent, I think, to the World Bank, like their work, their budget for Africa and so on. So they're they're a nonprofit that I just have not uh partnered with. They're doing a great job, but private enterprises uh that are Christians, um, yeah, I haven't heard a lot. Um, I've heard of churches partnering with Africa. Um but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02They're basically if they're gonna be helping with this issue, they're probably gonna be donating to like a world vision, right?
SPEAKER_01Right. But I think I think like you're uh you're probably encouraging them. Uh, I think that they can do so much more. I think that God is calling them to sort of invest themselves in Africa and so on, because private. Um, well, I I uh I'm trying to work um you know on some of these sort of financial solutions, you know, different ways to do it. But um but I would say just sort of um you know investing in local businesses there in Africa, uh partnering with them, uh there are resources, there are human resources, and so on. So I mean, I think I think the opportunity is large for companies, Christian companies, uh, but uh maybe there's not a model yet. Or or again, Darren, you're probably more familiar than I am.
SPEAKER_02So, what strategies have been the most effective when it comes to alleviating poverty around the world that that you have helped to identify and implement?
SPEAKER_01Uh, I think it's a good question. Um I think I feel pretty confident that um the use of the church uh for developing the Roma people, and I guess this is not private advice, but um but for the Roma people, that I think God wants to use, you know, because they say, you know, what good comes from Nazareth, you know, what good comes from the institutional church in in Europe. Uh, but I think he wants to use that specifically because they're long-term, and like I said, I did a a thesis on this, that they're kind of like the solution there. Um, in terms of Africa, I think that there's a bigger role for private enterprise. So so I mean, in short, the the the solution for poverty is very complex. It's not, I mean, I did a PhD, and there's still many mysteries, and I study this on a on a regular basis. But um, so it depends on the person and the place and the population group, even uh, what might be God's solution and what might be the solution. There is uh there are keys, but there are no, as they would say, cliche, you know, there's no magic bullet. Sure. So it's just about, but I think for Africa, I think private investment will be a big deal. Um, there are great opportunities, I think, to, you know, export goods um, you know, uh that are, you know, uh agricultural goods, um, you know, maybe even technology in the future, who knows? But um, I have not seen it again. Uh I have not seen yet, but I know the Chinese are are very much investing um, you know, in private uh things as well, but they're all they're all government-led, I guess. But but uh but I think that if companies start to invest more in Africa, they'll see, they'll see a solution as well to poverty there, um, maybe in the next 20 years or so. You know, I mean I think uh Shakira, you know, when she did her song for 2010, may have been a prophetic voice, you know, the World Cup, and she said it's time for Africa. I really think that that's the case. You know, corruption is still there, you know, you have to be careful about where you go, but but 5,000, I I know a person in our there's a Nigerian couple in our church business group who owned a dentistry, and they they've started to invest in a brother who's from Nigeria, uh actual brother of his. And they built, you know, with just maybe $10,000, $5,000, $10,000, you know, whole um fish farming activities, uh, maize. Um, you know, they want to expand to pigs. Uh so I mean, it just the money can go so far and can really help them.
SPEAKER_02And how central would you say is the role of private enterprise there? Because obviously you have medical problems, you have um just environmental problems, you have the corruption. But how important is are people going over there to start either either going over there or investing uh in private enterprise in in some of these countries?
SPEAKER_01I think it's it's gonna be so key to their future. And I think you know, um it's gonna be such a blessing to people who do it too, I think. But the key that I found is you have to find a person you trust on the ground or people you trust. So this man, for example, working with his brother. Um, I know another Nigerian who's working uh with his family, and and it's maybe not only family, but friends or even a pastor or so on. But but the trust issue is is is is gonna be big because the risks are large. You know, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, you know, uh there's there is corruption. It is very difficult to even start a business here in the US, let alone in Africa. But if God is leading you to do that, again, the financial cost is low and the benefits may be tremendous. I mean, you can you can build a business, like I said, with $5,000. You can you can employ people, you can you know give them a love for work, and the unemployment rate is so high there, and young people are are leaving their country so much. So, I mean, this is this is the case in any poor country in Eastern Europe and so on, but but it could it it takes a very little amount to invest, and I think the returns are huge, not just you know monetarily, but spiritually, um relationally, and and basically you're you can give people jobs so much easier over there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so now you've developed a course. Tell us about the course and how people can sign up for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we have a course called again called Economic Diplomacy Integrity, modeled after our 12 years of experience uh running this movement, uh basically for young leaders, um young and and and from all over. And um you just need to know English pretty well, and you can sign up for this course on um on uh I think we have the link there on uh edi.platmac.org, plataforma, formats.org. Um, and basically um it's a 10-week course, and we talk about Jesus in economics, Jesus in politics, um, Jesus and and and business. Um we try to go through as well, we try to have uh we try to mentor you through a process of coming up with your own idea or project or business and sort of at least the the beginnings of that, and we try to bring you through that with our teachers and mentors uh a little bit. And so we're we're this is um this is again the product of 12 years of of thinking about these issues, and some of our our teachers are teaching these these these weeks. So we're encouraging you if you want to know more about uh Jesus and economics, politics, and business, you know, maybe this is sort of a first step in in creating your idea and going further in these areas.
SPEAKER_02And so when you say Jesus and economics, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01So I'm thinking not just, I mean, uh, you know, there's there's some written on business ethics already, Christians in business. Uh I'm thinking more of like the foundation of how we think about economy. Um if we've seen like uh in on the left, we see movements of people sort of um running for a government that they're they're they're they're calling themselves social democrats, thinking about socialism. Um we we we are in a sort of capitalist economy. Uh but we also I think want to think about what does Jesus in the Bible say about the underlying themes? You know, what does he say about debt? What does he say about the way money should be handled? What does he say about um issues of usury and um and interest, right? And how does he think about uh taxes, taxes? And these are kind of like the economic foundations not that go beyond sort of uh that go sort of to the foundation of where businesses are coming from, right? Um and what kind of business environment is created. Uh so these are the issues, I think, that that Jesus does address in the Bible and do work even. Um and so we need to sort of dig those back up. The church history has a lot on this. You know, they used to discuss it a lot in Europe uh back in the 1500s and so on. They had a lot of debates about these things, but we've sort of lost that. So we maybe want to go back and dig up some of these ideas. Um, you know, Catholic teaching has thought about issues of solidarity, of subsidiary. Um, Christian, there's there's a thought about Christian democracy. What does that really look like? Um, that's a political idea that's kind of been lost a bit uh from us. So I think we can dig these up, we can we can explore these more and even think about their applications to the modern society. And we can come up with better ways than uh just social democracy or socialism or whatever that's coming up. And I I think we can explore these ideas, and this is part of what I want to do with this online program and the EDI gatherings.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful. Well, KaganSconsulting.com is the the main website, and then I'll also have the link to the course in the show notes so people can check out. Uh as we uh wrap it up here, uh Justin, what would be a parting piece of advice you could leave with our Christian business professionals today? Maybe they're about to go back to work and what's going on around the world in terms of poverty that just is beyond imagination, uh, is just not at the forefront of our minds. What uh what advice would you leave with that person in terms of how they can make an impact?
SPEAKER_01Uh one of the keys that I think God has revealed to me about business um and economy and politics and all of that. Uh I was in Croatia and I was just very shortly, I was praying, you know, God, what can we, how can we get an axe to like a you know, thousands of people coming to Christ, you know, like what, you know, what can we do? Uh, because thousands of people came to Christ from uh from only like 120 praying in the upper room, right? Just with one sermon. And I felt God say, you know, it's my amazing love. And maybe people don't think that business has to do with love, but if you are gonna conquer the business mountain and be successful, you need to know God's love. You need to know this gift. And if you're gonna help poverty and alleviate poverty, you need to know the love of God. So I would pray for that. I would seek that in your life as one of the foremost things, especially if we look at Revelations and where it says that people at the end will become lovers of themselves, of money, and so on. We need to be radically different. We need to be about love. And so we need to be about loving one another in ways that are only supernatural. And as Jesus said, you know, that by by your love for one another, they will know that you're my disciples. So, really, I think the key to conquering the business mountain and for you in business is gonna be love. And so, how you're gonna figure that out, that's for you, I think. That's part of the mystery. But uh, I really believe that with my whole heart. That's how thousands of people are gonna come to Christ and how you are gonna be successful in business.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful. Well said, Justin, thank you for sharing your your passion and your expertise with us today. And may God continue to bless uh your ministry, your your company, everything that you're doing and your family as well. Thanks again.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Dave. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.