Welcome to the Christianity and Business podcast with host Darren Sheer, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all five issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at ChristianityInbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01On this episode, we're joined by Jeff Holler. Jeff is an author, speaker, and founder and owner of the Capital Chart Room and serves as a certified financial planner for some of the most respected and successful entrepreneurs in Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. He's the author of the new book, Bigger Than Business: Real World Stories of Business Owners Living Their Purpose. And I had the joy of being able to work with Jeff on publishing this book through Hybrid Books. And I can tell you he's uh he's an incredible man of God, loves the Lord, and he, as you're gonna get a sense of in this interview, he really is very focused on doing things for the right reasons. And uh he's been incredibly successful in business, as have his his clients, and he's gonna help us to wrestle with this question of why do we do what we do in business to make sure that we have a pure heart before God. Jeff, welcome to the Christianity and business podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren. It's great to be with you. I really appreciate you having me on today.
SPEAKER_01So, why did you write this book, Bigger Than Business?
SPEAKER_02Okay, that's a great question, Darren. And I'm I'm chuckling a little bit because I never intended to write a book. Uh it was it was the last thing I had ever thought about. Uh the person that suggested it, Alan Sears, who is the founder and CEO of Alliance Defending Freedom, uh, he and I were having dinner one night and we were talking about business as ministry. I really believe that God created each of us for a purpose, and that purpose is to serve him. And those of us that are in business, he created us to serve him right where we are. We don't have to be in the pulpit or be in the mission field uh to serve God and to be in ministry. As a matter of fact, glorifying him through how we conduct our business and what we do with our business can be just as important to the kingdom as writing a great praise song or a great sermon. So we were having that conversation and talking about some clients I have and people I know that have the same uh belief I do, that my business is my ministry. And uh Alan simply said, Jeff, you need to write a book about that. He said, There's a lot of theology around that concept, but there are not really many books about people actually doing it, how they live their purpose through their business and why they do it. He said it would be great to provide some examples. And I said, Alan, I will never write a book. And he just he looked at me with a serious look on his face. He said, Well, I just had this feeling almost like the Holy Spirit was telling me that that you need to write a book. And I said, I'll never write a book. It must be indigestion. And he said, Why do you say that? And I said, Well, I'm I like to write, but I'm very slow and deliberate. Uh I I love to read, but again, I'm a slow and deliberate reader, and I just think it will be an absolute beating if I ever wrote a book. And people have suggested books in the past, and I just don't have an interest. And he said, Well, you know, again, I I think the Holy Spirit really is moving me to encourage you to do this. Uh, he said, Would you pray about it? And so the first mistake, Darren, that I made was to say never. God does have a sense of humor. And the second mistake I made was to agree to pray about it. And I'm one of those that when I tell somebody I'll pray, I actually do. And that's one of the few things I'm really good at is praying. So, yeah, I started praying about it. And interestingly, uh, I had been working personally to give control of my life over to Christ more and more and to follow him, to seek his will and submit to his will and follow the path he has prepared for me. I'm one of those that uh in the past, uh, I thought being a good Christian was to uh make my plans and take Christ along with me. And uh so I could have him there when I needed him. And what I learned uh through through my own growing process and through my business and some setbacks I have was that uh God wants obedience and that he's already got a great path prepared for us, a wonderful path. And and all we need to do is seek his will, and and then once we have clarity about that will to follow it. So I had been been working on that, giving total control up to him. And so I started praying about it, and he placed on my heart that yes, I should uh write this book. I I had to I had to uh be obedient. I just had no choice, and and I so that's I decided, okay, God, I'll I'll write the book, but it's yours. I'll be your vessel. If you want to prove you can do anything through anybody, uh I'll I'll write this book and and but I need your help. It's it's your book. So uh you just lead the way and I'll follow it. And that's that's how I got into it. I have one person uh that I knew I would have as a subject in the book. It was David Green, owner of Hobby Lobby Swords. He's a longtime personal friend, mentor, and and uh client. And and uh I knew his story was one that needed to be told. But beyond David, I had nobody else in mind. I had a blank slate.
SPEAKER_01And it's really the question of why do you do what you do in business? Isn't that really the the underlying question of this book that you were asking these uh the subjects of the book? And and I also wanted to point out here, you you mentioned how there's one thing I'm good at, it's prayer. And I don't think there's any coincidence there that out of prayer and spending time with the Lord, you really do get uh a very deep level of introspection of, you know, Lord, search me and know me and see if there are any unclean ways in me. And and nowhere is this more important than when you reach these incredibly high pinnacles of success in the business world. Um, what what was really uh driving that question for you of why do you do what you do?
SPEAKER_02What I wanted to do through the book was was to provide the reader with clarity about what it means to live your God-breathed purpose through your business, to actually look at your business as ministry and give examples of people that are actually doing that and and why they do it, what's their motive as well as how they do it, um, some practical applications of how they do it and and some of the things they have in common and and then how they're different. So, but but that clarity, I wanted the reader to be able to have clarity about what it means to understand that you God has created you for a unique purpose, his unique purpose to serve him. And he's probably created you to do it right where you are. If you own a business, you know, you probably start it because you have a passion for what you're doing. And that's a good indicator that that's what God created you to do. And so it was uh to help readers understand, you know, how to take that passion and use it to glorify God and in ministry to Him through your business.
SPEAKER_01So as it relates to some of your own preconceptions about business, what surprised you the most about what you learned from these entrepreneurs during the course of interviewing them?
SPEAKER_02One of the things that surprised me the most, there, and that's a great question, was just how transparent and honest they were. I uh traveled to their location, I did a lot of research. Uh, I actually did a lot of networking to find the right stories. And um, through that networking, it ended up being a global experience. I never intended for the book to be global, but God led me first to South America and then Indonesia and Africa, and I ended up having uh a story, there are eight stories in the book. Uh six different continents are included in the book, every continent by Antarctica. I couldn't find a business owner on Antarctica. Um so uh, you know, God God worked through me, and what I found was through the interviewing process that even though everybody's story was different, everybody's business was different, everybody had a different why they they do what they do, a different uh understanding of their purpose, they were totally honest and transparent and very, very humble. These are these were high achievers, very, very high achievers, but that understand they have a higher calling. And the higher calling is to serve God right where they are. And they're super humble. It it just blew me away. Um when you read the stories, uh the very first story, uh most people say this isn't what I expected. Um, Debbie and Michael Rossa and uh their story, and and uh they're totally transparent about issues they had and and uh what those the problems those issues created and and then how they accepted God's grace to to get back on track. So I think that that openness, that that transparency, that humbleness was was a commonality with everybody I interviewed.
SPEAKER_01And and you find that that's really a key to that that plays into their success and their business, that transparency?
SPEAKER_02I think the the humbleness is the number one thing that that plays into the success in their business. They understand that it's not theirs. Every every interview, every subject in the book understands that that they're just blessed. God has blessed them with the opportunity to serve Him right where they are in the marketplace, and that it's not theirs. They don't own it. God owns it. They're simply a steward, and they have to steward what they're doing with excellence. And it's incredible how humble and how focused they are on on stewarding what God's blessed them with, with it with excellence in everything they do. But I think the humbleness is is uh, and then the transparency is is very important too. I I think that's related to humbleness. Um, you know, they're obviously very transparent with God. They they share everything with God, they know God sees everything, and uh they want to please Him. So I and I found them to be not only transparent with me, but transparent with all those around them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you spend a lot of time uh working with and uh just associating with very affluent business people. What what were some of the things certainly this would be one of the uh the keys here? Really is the the foundational key is recognizing that it's all his. It's all it's all God's, his business, any success, it's all it all belongs to him. Uh what were some of the other differentiators among these Christian entrepreneurs that are really not just nominal Christians, you know, they they go to church or they go on Christmas or whatever, they you know try to be good people, but what really were some of the key differentiators between this set of entrepreneurs and maybe some of kind of the if you were to think about just the world's pattern of success for entrepreneurship?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think that there are a number of things that that they all had in common. Um, Alan Sears speaks to this in his his uh forward in the book, is they have open hand, an open hands um philosophy, and that is that their open hands would receive what God's blessed them with and that God owns it. It's not theirs. They don't close their hands around anything. It it all belongs to God, and whatever they can, whatever He gives us, we want to use that to glorify God and return it to Him in some form or fashion. So I think that's that's a critical component. One another thing is um I found that every single person I interviewed, and again, like me, believe that the Bible is undeniably God's holy word and is truth. And they hunger and they thirst for God's word. So they're constantly growing, they're constantly in the word. Um they invest a significant amount of time in reading and studying, contemplating the scriptures and how they should apply them in not just their personal life, but in their business. Um and they don't separate their their faith and and their work. It's not like they a nominal Christian, we say that, a nominal Christian, cultural Christian who might go to church on Sunday or worship on Sunday, and then Monday, you know, it's they're back to work and they're in a different world. Um these people see uh everything they do as being to God's glory and being associated with their faith and their purpose. Um they're all deeply um uh involved in prayer. Uh anything everything they do are considered is undergirded by prayer. Some of the best advice David Green ever gave me personally is never make a major decision until you have clarity from God that that's the direction he wants you to go. So they prayerfully seek God's will in every decision and choice they make. Um they they don't act until they have clarity and they are confident that that they're doing what God wants them to do. They don't lean on their own understanding. There's a there's a great scripture about that. Um, and that's something I I actually uh uh struggle with myself and uh have worked really hard to overcome. But once they have clarity, here's the other thing. Once they have clarity about God's will, they follow it humbly and obediently with with great joy. And they don't see submission or being obedient as an ugly word like our society might uh taint it to be. They see it as being one with God's love. And and I think that's an incredible uh philosophy. It's one I've adopted myself. And and so once they feel like they have clarity, they'll pursue it with a passion and they'll pursue it with with all the tools God's giving them. Um they don't, I guess some other commonalities, they don't compromise their biblically based values and principles. They just won't compromise them. You'll see that in every story. They all had difficult situations where they could have compromised uh their their faith after they'd accepted Christ as their savior. What's one of those that comes to mind? Um I'm thinking of uh uh Dr. Soparno, um, the Indonesian subject, and uh going through the Asian crisis meltdown in Indonesia. It was just a horrible situation in the in the 90s, and uh there was a lot of corruption, there was a a lot of bribery going on, and his family business was not only under great stress, they were on the verge of losing everything, and and he refused to compromise his his Christian values. And the story um uh reveals how God just honored that and how God blessed that and helped them work their way out of it and put the right people in their lives that at the right time. And God, uh God really honored and respected. Another one is is David Green in Hobby Lobby. Uh most the listeners are probably familiar with the Supreme Court case, where the U.S. government um tried to force them to pay for emergency contraceptives that could cause a uh uh fertilized embryo to be aborted. And he was not willing, he and his family were not willing to pay for that, those emergency contraceptives for their employees. They were willing to leave it to the employees' discretion. They weren't telling the employees they couldn't use them. And much to the uh contrary of what the media had to say, they were leaving that to employees. They just didn't want to pay for it. They didn't, as David said, didn't want that blood on their hands. And the government uh came in, and I think the fine was something like three million dollars a day. And it literally could have put them out of business. And they family got together and they prayed about it, and they said, you know, they said legally, you know, you're you know, we could say you're supposed to render under the government what is the government's, but we have to honor scripture and we we believe that life is important and we're not going to compromise our values on that. And so they fought it all the way to the Supreme Court and ended up winning the the Supreme Court case, which was an incredible victory. Yes. So that's that's a couple of examples. Um, and then I'll also say that every every business that I interviewed, their company culture reflects the subject's values and principles, and they attract employees that appreciate that culture, uh, Christian and non-Christian alike. A commonality in all the the uh business owners, and I do the I feel the same way in my company, is they're not Christian companies. They're companies that are founded on Christian values, they're run by Christians. And they hire Christians, non-Christians, other uh people of other religions, but they make it very clear the source of the their values is their faith. And they ask people to respect that. They're not trying, they don't expect people to convert. They believe if they live their faith, people will take notice and and it will touch their hearts. And there are a lot of stories of people converting in these companies as a result of they see the business owner actually living their faith and they know the source of their values. And so their culture attracts people who appreciate honesty and integrity and um do unto others you would have them do unto you, and all the Christian-based type values that these people live in their business.
SPEAKER_01What would be one of the you mentioned how they they are students of the word, that they they just love the word of God. What would be a practical example, maybe one that our many of our listeners haven't heard before or haven't heard often, of a specific Bible passage or principle from the scripture that they were then they then took and applied in a business situation?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would uh boy, I'd have to go back and and look at the stories. I think, I think that um in the Hobby Lobby case, in the Supreme Court case, they uh held on to Daniel in the fire and to not compromise their values. They they said, we'll if if God wants us to go into the fire and and fight this, we will. And if God wants us to be untouched, um that's his business. And it's his, and by the way, their attitude was this is his business. And if he wants us somewhere else, doing somewhere else, and it's taken away, we'll serve him no matter where we are. They were willing to just follow God wherever he led them and leave the outcome to him. And again, not lean on their own understanding. That's that's a Bible verse I heard in almost every story. Lean not on your own understanding. Um, trust the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength. And and these are people that have invested all their trust in the real the scriptures and all their trust in God and in Christ and and are willing to go wherever he leads them.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that is just such an amazing example of how a business can be a tool for discipleship, for discipling not only the people in the business, but the culture as a whole, you know, thinking about that Daniel uh story, you know, that we got a real life example of that in in the news with that Hobby Lobby case, and just seeing how readily the the leaders of the company were willing to just lay it all down for what God had uh led them to do and to to not uh not just cast away their uh their conscience before him was just such a remarkable and and challenging lesson, I think, for for all of us.
SPEAKER_02Darren, that's a it's a great observation, and every story has a some situation like that or some crisis that the the subject of the story went through where they had to make a decision. And the decision was am I going on my own understanding? Am I gonna go my own way? Am I gonna use my own uh wits and and abilities to solve this? Am I gonna do what I think is best and am I gonna follow what the world says I should do? Or should I am I gonna trust God and lean on his understanding and seek his clarity in prayer? And then once I have that clarity to follow with with all my energy, every story has has a situation like that. And God so blesses and so honors uh these honors all of us when we do take that stance and when we do trust him and when we do uh wait on on him and follow him once we understand where he's leading us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, one of the other things that I noticed in the book that was just so remarkable was the incredible generosity of of these entrepreneurs and just seeing what how it really the business just amplifies what's in somebody's heart, right? I mean, it it doesn't put that generosity in there. Uh and and so you know, you see as the business grows, I mean, there are schools getting built. There are uh, I mean, there are ministries being funded. There's just so many different things that these entrepreneurs did with the resources that God had had entrusted to them.
SPEAKER_02Darren, that's a great observation. And I think it it comes back to that open hands concept that they understand that the business isn't theirs, that the God's given them what's called a tree, a a great tree that they're to care for, that they're to steward for. And this tree produces great fruit. And the fruit isn't theirs to hoard or accumulate, the fruit is theirs, it's God. And they they're not only very generous, but they're they're also uh very focused on giving and being generous in a way that God's calling them to serve. So again, God calls each of us to use our abilities to serve Him in multiple cases, one through our business. But then as we generate this fruit of our labor to use it to God's glory in a way that God's calling us to use it. And again, he leads us there. So none of them are just writing checks to ministries, a lot of different ministries. Most of them have a limited number of ministries that they're super passionate about, where God's led them, that they can make a major impact in. Um, so they they again are applying this concept of seeking God's uh guidance, seeking what God has for them in their generosity, where he would have them use those resources. They don't look at it as just money to give away. They don't look at generosity as just something that is to be done to be a good and faithful steward. They look at it as, okay, what would God have me do with this? And where can I use my not only the money, but my abilities and my heart to serve him? And so the things they accomplish is, as you noted, are just incredible. And so I encourage the readers to read the books, could the book, because that's a really important component of it. And it's amazing to see what they're accomplishing. Yeah. And it's and it's because that that open hands concept, and also again, they're they're they're prayerfully seeking how they can use that fruit in the in in a way that they can leverage it to serve the kingdom in really big ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And when I think about these businesses, I think about I think about a a large just oak tree. And but once once the tree starts growing, it's it's difficult to change kind of the DNA of of that tree once once it has already started growing. I'm thinking about in the early stages of these companies, is it is it possible that you could start a company like a Hobby Lobby or or any of the others that are mentioned in the book and really not have that mindset that it's all God's and and have these values that that from what I can remember, they've well not that they didn't have their flaws and have their uh come to Jesus moments in their in their lives and in the way that they were conducting themselves and their business. Um, I mean, is it is it possible to to continue to grow the same company or was there sort of a or do you really have kind of have to start over? If you start to kind of grow the business with uh the wrong motives, where you're not it's it's not bigger than business, it's not a eternal purpose, it's just sort of a profit um motive. Uh, what would you say in terms of how because I I wouldn't think that they all started with just the purest of intentions.
SPEAKER_02No, that's that's a great question. And and you know, I can kind of look to myself as well, because I didn't start my own business with the the purest of intentions that that my business was to be bigger than the business itself, and neither did any of the subjects in the book, probably not even David Green. He he thought he was uh kind of a black sheep of the family because he's the only one that didn't go into the ministry. But what he realized later is he truly was in the ministry. I think um from that perspective, everybody at some point realized, came to understand that uh it wasn't theirs, it was God's. And they just readjusted. Interestingly, I think God had already had been with them, had been preparing them. Um and again, I'll use my example. When I started my business, uh my motives weren't as pure. I wanted to be successful for not always all the right reasons. And but I was doing something I love to do. And I was which uh what we call our firm is unique ability. I was I started a business around my unique ability, things that not only are I excellent at, but that I'm very passionate about. Well, that really is that pretty much defines God's part of God's purpose, why he created me. And so I was doing something God created me to do. I was just not doing it for the right reasons. And so once I came to understand that, it was it wasn't that hard to readjust and make sure that um readjust my culture, readjust my thinking, and and change some of the ways we transacted our business and and and grew it from that point forward. But I was still in the same business. We just got uh a lot better at it.
SPEAKER_01What do you mean you weren't doing it for the right reasons? What did what did that look like for you?
SPEAKER_02I think what it what it looked like for me, it was um uh I wanted to be responsible for my success or my failure. I I started my I had a corporate life before I started this business. And uh, you know, my success or failure was dependent on a lot of others in the corporate world, and and I wanted to have the responsibility of of on what I thought on my own, of of either if I was successful it was because of me. If I failed, it was because of me, it wasn't because of anybody else. And that was kind of where I that was my starting point. And what I came to realize is you know, God created me to be here, but my success or failure doesn't depend on what I do, it depends on how um obedient I am to what God is calling me to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, and that that's that's the the struggle, the heart struggle that we as entrepreneurs deal with, right? I mean, it's that we have a a God-given ability and and desire as well to kind of hang out our own shingle and you know start a business. And and but God really has to refine that because there is so much potential. I mean, it really is like dynamite in terms of the the kingdom impact that can be made. You know, when you look at any number of uh these subjects that you interviewed for the book, um, but there's so much that especially I think entrepreneurs need this book, need to learn from these entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_02Darren, I would, I would say this, and and again, back to your original question about do you have to change the business? If if you truly pursued something that you are passionate about, that you feel is your unique ability, that you're really good at, again, that's an indication that's something God created you to do. But if you simply pursued a business because you thought that's where you can make the most money, regardless of whether you thought it was the best use of your abilities, if it was solely focused on um the money or the wealth or the power or uh some of those things, then you may truly have to change. Um you may be in the wrong place. And so I think every entrepreneur has to seek, am I it is what I'm doing in my business uh part of what God created me to do? And and an easy way to tell that is do you do you love doing the certain things in your business, which is the reason why you started it? Um is it the thing you're really, really good at, or did you pursue it for totally worldly uh purposes? And if it's the totally worldly purposes, you may have to start over and reevaluate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, Jeff, as we wrap it up, what would be a parting piece of advice you would leave with our Christian business professionals today, especially the the entrepreneurs?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I uh of course I would encourage you to read the book because again, I think it's gonna give you clarity about what it means to live your God-breathed purpose uh through your business. I think it'll give you confidence that with God's help you can do so. You can you can live that purpose. And I think that once you read the book and you see the examples of these others, and by the way, these aren't all big businesses. I have a small business in Africa that's a a uh sewing cooperative, that's a $16,000 a year revenue business. We have businesses of all sizes in in the book. So anybody can relate to one or more of these stories. But I think after you read the stories, you'll also be willing to make a commitment to follow Christ and relinquish your control of the outcome to the creator. And and I think that's my number one piece of advice because it's very personal to me. I get on my knees uh in prayer. Um the people in the book won't compromise is their prayer time, their devotional and prayer time. It's amazing. As busy as these people are, Darren, you've read the books, you've seen all the things they're involved in in their business, in their inner ministries, and in their families. Um they are some of the busiest people on the planet, but they always find time to pray. They make the time to pray every single day. And most of them have a quiet place they go to, they're on their knees and they're in prayer after scripture, and that sets the tone for their entire day. And part of that uh time they spend is is to seek the creator's help and turn over, turn control over to the creator and and seek his direction and follow him. Um and I think that's the best advice that I can give folks is to give give that time, set the time aside to spend with your creator, to to turn your life over to him, to build that relationship, uh, to be in scripture, to to seek what God has for you and to learn how to be obedient, to have the patience of mind to wait for clarity. Once God provides that clarity in your heart recognizes it, to have the heart and mind to follow it with with uh a passion with everything you've got.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful. Well, biggerthanbusiness.com is the website. People can get the the hardcover paperback ebook, and now an audiobook version. We know our listeners love audio, so definitely go and check that out on iBooks, on Audible, uh on Amazon. Uh any other things you want to say about what you're involved in, how people can get involved with what you're doing, Jeff?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you go to the website, um, we are starting to speak around the book. Um, and uh I've done a fair amount of speaking in the past, so this comes pretty naturally. But the book has done just exceptionally well. We're we now have people recommending it to people, giving it as gifts, and uh it's it's incredible how well it's done. It's being used by an MBA uh a course uh teacher at a Christian college, is uh one of their textbooks. It's being used now by a church for a small group study for business people, uh, because the church is a lot of churches don't connect well with business people, so they're using it as a way to bring business people into the church and have a small group study. And God's just using it in amazing ways that I could have never anticipated. So um, in parting, I I would just encourage you to read it, go to the website, um, and if you have any ideas or thoughts, you know, I'd love to hear from you. My my email address is on the website and in the book.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Jeff, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your wisdom and your heart with us. And thank you for being faithful and obedient to go travel around the world. I know it took countless hours and and just time to reflect and to write uh and share what the Lord was speaking to you through these entrepreneurs, and uh may God continue to bless these efforts and everything you're putting your heart into.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren. I really appreciate it. Appreciate your time today and appreciate your great questions.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.