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SPEAKER_03On today's episode, we'll be discussing can work be a form of worship? And we're joined by Dr. Marjorie Cooper. Marjorie is a professor of marketing at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. Her areas of interest are marketing, consumer behavior, and promotion. And she holds a PhD in business administration from Texas AM University and a Masters of Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Marjorie.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Darren. Thank you for inviting me.
SPEAKER_03Certainly. Well, I'll start with the most obvious question here. How did you become both a theologian and a marketing professor?
SPEAKER_01Uh by accident? No. Actually, um I've always been interested in theology. But in the early days when I was going to school, I uh women women just pretty much did not go to seminary. And um so things happened and I needed um to be able to earn a living, so I decided to go the business route. My my dad was an entrepreneur and then uh he was a pastor, so I guess I've I've sort of followed in his footsteps a little bit.
SPEAKER_03I can relate to that. My dad's also a pastor, and I I ended up following a similar route of somehow ending up in business, but still uh going to seminary and uh and just becoming a student of the word. Um, but interesting that we're both PKs ended up in this position.
SPEAKER_01And and and presumably we're pretty normal. I've some who who uh didn't survive so well, but presumably we're doing all right.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. Well, so so diving into our topic here today, uh as you know, people use a wide range of terms to refer to what God's doing in the workplace and the marketplace today. And one of those, uh one of the most popular among those is the work as worship movement. And um what would you say is the theological problem that you see with viewing work as a form of worship?
SPEAKER_01Well, the biggest theological problem is that work is not worship, worship is worship. Um, worship is directed exclusively to toward God. Work, of course, is directed towards for the most part towards other people. Uh, it's more of a horizontal um relationship. Now that doesn't mean that work can't be a ministry toward other people, but it does mean that work and worship are not the same thing. And of course, there are theological reasons for saying that.
SPEAKER_03So you're saying that because work is done, you're saying that work is not done for God, work is done for other people, but then there's verses like Colossians 3.23, whatever you do, do it with all your heart as working for the Lord, not for men, because it's the Lord Christ whom you serve. How do you reconcile uh concepts like that in the Bible with the idea that that work is not something that can be done unto God?
SPEAKER_01Well, I will not say that work is not something that can be done unto God.
SPEAKER_03Well, as a form specifically as a form of worship, I should say.
SPEAKER_01No, not as a form of worship. Um let's go back to the beginning, because that's really where where it all gets started. There is a presumption that when the Lord put placed Adam in the garden, that his instructions to him were to work, and that's not what the words mean in the Hebrew. Um it's very clear that the two words that are used together comprise a technical term that means that pertains specifically to activities related to worship, the terms used later uh with respect to the Levitical priesthood as well. And um so I don't want to give a Hebrew lesson, but um you know we use collocations today in English. Uh when we talk about the seat of power, we're not talking about a chair and we're not talking about someone's anatomy. We're talking figuratively about um where the um influence and the authority and the and the power resides. Um the two words that are used to cultivate and keep it uh that that are used in Genesis 2.15 of of Adam, they specifically reflect um activities pertaining to worship. Um this is not a this is not a big surprise to theologians. Some of the finest conservative Old Testament scholars out there have recognized this for years. It's it's this is not like this is something I dreamed up. Um that they recognize that Eden is a prototypical sanctuary. Um it is uh place set aside by God to meet with uh his human creation, and that what takes place there is in some sense worship rather than toiling as we think of work today. Uh toiling comes after the fall. And so what was going on in the garden was not agriculture, it was some form of worship and um fellowship with God.
SPEAKER_03Or a task, and but it would also involve a task like, for example, naming the animals, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_03Would that be considered work or no?
SPEAKER_01Not in the sense that we think of work today. Everything we do today in terms of work is tainted by the fall, and so it's always carries with it some degree of negativity and toil. The work that was done before the fall would have been in in compliance with God's instruction, but it was also specifically naming the animals, it was that was sp that was um to transfer the hierarchy of uh responsibility.
SPEAKER_03Would you consider that worship, the work that Adam was doing in the garden? Sure, yes. And so uh how do you define I think this would help our listeners, how are you defining worship as opposed to work? And and what what is it about worship that is not work fundamentally?
SPEAKER_01Worship um is an action that is directed and motivated uh by an attitude that reveres and honors and uh shows devotion to God. So worship is directed toward God exclusively. I mean, we know what it says about worshiping a created a creature. Um worship is just strictly uh towards God, and we know that work and worship are not the same thing. Um why why would God uh give the fourth commandment if they were the same? He clearly differentiates in the fourth commandment work and setting us time aside for worship of God.
SPEAKER_03Well, so it it it's it's about revering God, and but I'm I'm just hearing our listeners who who view you know work as a form of worship um kind of saying that's exactly what I do when I work, is that I'm working for God. For example, and you point this out, and by the way, uh for our listeners, there's an article that Marjorie has written. I'll put this in the show notes that really presents well uh Marjorie's position on this. Uh but you talk about the priestly role of Adam in the garden and how you know we are we are all there's a priesthood of all believers uh nowadays. And and Peter says that that you're a royal priesthood. One of the ways we carry out that role as priesthood is by offering sacrifices, right? And I think one of those one of those sacrifices, certainly Romans 12, offer your body as a living sacrifice, but I think in the course of a work day, for example, when there is an ethical decision and there's an option, do I take the do the expedient thing uh to make a profit or to take advantage of the situation or a customer, or do I forfeit that do I to use a theological term, sacrifice that uh unto the Lord and just let that let that be a sacrifice in the midst of the workday uh to to honor and as an act of worship, is that is could that be considered in your view, could that be considered an act of worship to make that kind of a sacrifice in a workday?
SPEAKER_01We're ambassadors for Christ, so we represent him wherever we are, and we represent him throughout the week in the workplace, and so we should act in ways that reflect well on our Savior so that people, you know, we we are not the cause of people stumbling. But worship is when we meet with God, and I I would not say that you can't worship God in the workplace because obviously you can worship God any place that you take time out to commune with him and to honor him. But work primarily is for the purpose of offsetting the effects of the fall, and so um what I'm concerned about is the lack of differentiation between what we do to offset the effects of the fall and what we do that is exclusively God's. And there is a difference. As I said before, we see that in the fourth commandment, and um we see as far as justification for saying that work is worship, um the Genesis passage that's usually quoted, Genesis 2.15, that's just bogus because that's not what it means. So we have lots of opportunities to honor the Lord and serve him in our work and to represent him well, but work is work and worship is worship.
SPEAKER_03Um and um so you're not saying that I mean it doesn't it wouldn't it be driven by your motivation that would determine what is worship and what is not?
SPEAKER_01I can go in my office and close my door and pray, and I can worship the Lord privately. But primarily worship is to be corporate for the church, it's to come together and worship together, so there's community involved, and there's there's also um a vertical relationship involved. Now, when I'm teaching a class, I'm not usually communing with the Lord on a continual basis, anyway. Why not? There may come because I'm thinking about what I'm communicating to my students, and that's what I'm thinking about.
SPEAKER_03And but isn't it isn't it possible and shouldn't we strive to be more in tune with with the Lord in the midst of our daily goings on?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Listen, I mean listen to what the Holy Spirit's prompting you.
SPEAKER_03As in pr as in pray continually, which doesn't necessarily which doesn't necessarily mean that you need to go get away in your prayer closet, that that you need to bring your I mean certainly we need those times, we need the Sabbath, we need those designated places and and events and special holidays, for example, where we set our mind on on the Lord and and things that he's done for us, but but there is, as Brother Lawrence said, a practicing of the presence that ought to be done in our work. Isn't that right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's true. And I'm not saying that I'm not in any way saying you can't do those things. I'm saying that work is not coming aside with fellow believers and focusing exclusively on the Lord, and that is worship and that needs to be done.
SPEAKER_03Right. But but it doesn't I think because we're looking for the thing.
SPEAKER_01When you make work, here's the problem. When you make work worship, then you descralize something that belongs exclusively to God. Now He has to share it with all of the other things going on in your life.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. Well I guess I'm wondering where where where does that where does that lead? Um I mean I think what you're talking about, at least the way I tend to frame it, is the the sin is to is to worship the work, not to view work as a form of worship. Because again, I mean whatever you do, do it for the glory of God. Uh absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I'm not arguing against that at all.
SPEAKER_03Which is which is worship. You know, that's whether you're singing in church or whether you're preaching a sermon or whether you're f you know flipping burgers, counting numbers, whatever it is that you're doing, do it for the glory of God. Which I mean, isn't the the doing of something for the glory of God worship?
SPEAKER_01I don't think it's exactly the same thing, no. No. I think that worship is directed towards God. See, that's the difference. When I'm doing something else, it's horizontal. It's directed towards this world and the people around me. It's not directed towards him exclusively. There is a Sabbath mandate from the time of creation to come aside and give him our exclusive attention.
SPEAKER_03And what is that what does that look like? Because even if we're in a congregational setting, I mean, like having played on quote unquote worship teams, yes, I mean I like to call them music teams because um I mean like I worship more accurate. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh so it's it Sundays can be some of the most grueling days of people's weeks because of the demands put on them um by their local churches, you know, especially those who work in the marketplace throughout the week, and then they're asked, I mean, I've worked, you know, parking lot ministries, band praxes, like you, you know, we anyone who's been a part of a church really wanting to get plugged in, I mean, you know the demands that can that can be there. And there is, I mean, it sounds like what you're saying is unless you are with well, there's the corporate, there's the corporate aspect of worship, but when there's a corporate, there's some sort of facilitation, there's some work that's happening to even facilitate that. So is it is it worship for those who aren't like engaged in that?
SPEAKER_01I think that's a really good question. I don't even want to touch that one. Because as a pastor's daughter, I know you're absolutely correct. Um I think it's very we're always beating back the fall. Okay. We are constantly trying to overcome the effects of the fall. And what you just described that really interferes with a lot of people's ability to focus on the Lord on the day we've set aside is just exactly the problem. We are constantly fighting against the tendencies of the fall. And one of the tendencies of the fall is to take from God that which belongs exclusively to him. There was a time when Adam was in the garden that he had all of his time to devote to the Lord. Once he left the garden, the Lord had to give the fourth commandment because it's just too easy to get caught up in the things that need to be done.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01You remember remember Martha, Mary and Martha? Martha felt that there was these there was the hospitality things that just had to be done. And the Lord said, No, you're wrong. Mary's chosen that better part. And she's just sitting at the at Jesus' feet, being taught, communing with him, listening to him, she chose the better part. That is not what people in our world would say. If that story weren't in the Bible, they'd look at those two women, they'd tell Mary to get with it.
SPEAKER_03But if you look, yeah, um if you look at it in another another situation, yeah, it probably if Mary was sitting around when it was time to uh to do something else besides go and sit, then her worship would have been lacking in that case, because because the Obedience is such a I mean like you know like the Bible says obedience is better than sacrifice so so which which worship is better the sacrifice or the obedience. I mean the obedience it it it's different in every situation. So it's not just if the Lord says, come away with me and get into your prayer closet, go sit by the river, don't bring don't bring a Bible, don't bring uh you know your the latest best-selling Christian living book with you, don't bring anything, just come and sit. But if worship is not possible in the midst of everyday life, then what are we doing?
SPEAKER_01I mean what what Well I didn't say it wasn't possible.
SPEAKER_03Right. But unless I mean it sounds like you're saying unless you get away and like I said, just go sit by the river or go get away.
SPEAKER_01Just you and the Lord.
SPEAKER_03But what about the corporate setting?
SPEAKER_01Get away to the cor and to the corporate setting.
SPEAKER_03But we know the corporate is not getting away.
SPEAKER_01Well, I it should be. It should be. It should be a time of unity and a time of Well, it is.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't, I mean, at least for me it is, but it definitely does not feel like getting away. I mean, I think people can get a little stressed, for example, on their way to church. Um I mean, some of the you know, oh it happens, especially when you got when you got toddlers, you know, it's uh it's exciting.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I know. Well I only have one, but uh I remember when I was much, much younger, there were four of us, and yes, it could be stressful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, I think you're I think you are hitting on something that we really need to hear here. Um the in your article, one of the one of the parts that really stood out to me was where you're suggesting that the commandment to subdue the earth, take dominion, and rule uh are not about go and strive to make something happen. And and you pointed out the theologian who said it's a little bit like Spock on Star Trek saying live long and prosper. It's right when he tells that he's yeah, it's a blessing. It's not it's not for you to go and okay, let me put a plan of action together to figure out how to go and live long and prosper. It it's just a it's set as a blessing. And and then you quoted uh one theologian who said, The idea of subduing the earth does not go well with the situation of a just created world without any enemies, and with the idea of rich of a rich world of trees and green that gives food to men and animals. And and there's there's uh a theology out there about taking dominion, I mean, you know, dominion theology and and and kind of taking the subdue the earth, this whole commandment and and like a striving approach where we are we're gonna take the bull by the horns and we're gonna really get this world straight for for Jesus. And and and you point out, why don't you unpack like what the the language is there?
SPEAKER_01Well, it says be fruitful and um fill the earth and subdue it. Um the two verbs, uh subdue and have dominion, uh, are the two we're looking at here. So the Hebrew uh verb for subdue is kawash. And um it's fairly rare in the Hebrew Bible. Uh it does occur, but in uh the places where it occurs, it's pretty negative. Um for example, in Micah and Zechariah, it refers to trampling or treading on something.
SPEAKER_03It's like I'm gonna put the kibosh on you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm gonna put the kibosh on you, exactly. And so um scholars have looked at that and said, you know, that that just doesn't comport well with with uh this passage that God would uh be pronouncing a blessing and telling people to trample the earth. Um and so uh if you look a little further, we find that uh kibbosh is a Akkadian cognate, which will just cause your listeners' eyes to cross. But that means it's another Semitic, closely related Semitic language. Hebrew borrows uh a considerable number of words from Akkadian. Akkadian is the old uh Assyrian language, and um so the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary lists several meanings for this word, and um it also means to step into something or to stride or pace off or to walk upon. And um so it usually is used in connection with the land. So um putting all of this back together, uh Kabaj has a figurative sense. The land is not literally trampled down, but rather it's set foot on and entered and occupied. So they're to have offspring and they're to walk all over the earth and they're to fill it. And um this, of course, would if Genesis was written by Moses, as we believe, I would uh resonate with the Israelites who are about to go into the land. Um the verb that's translated have dominion or die is uh off also a difficult verb. Uh it connotes ruling oppressively, but um it's also associated with the role of the shepherd, uh the good shepherd, and in Psalm uh 68, for example, it picks up the idea of how the shepherd leads the flock and supervises the flock and protects it and uh defends it, uh protects the weak from strong predators and that kind of thing. So we're getting an idea that the blessing is this is this is the earth that God has created for his human uh subjects, and he tells them here's a blessing, this is for you. Walk across it, populate it, um, and defend it against those who would destroy it.
SPEAKER_03Um and so it's not like uh a striving or uh even like uh it's not aggressive. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But there there definitely is the sense in which we are called to be on mission and going into all the world and making disciples and teaching, baptizing.
SPEAKER_01Now you know that's a participle as you go into the world.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Um make disciples, teaching them everything that I've taught you. I mean, you really don't teach anybody something by taking an aggressive stance against them. So uh again, it's gentleness and kindness. Um for the most part. I mean, there are times when um we saw Paul rebuke those who were out of line, but in in general, the approach is a a kind one, a one that is um uh works with the natural order of things.
SPEAKER_03Right. Well well, there's no question about the kindness and the fruit of the spirit, but so you it sounds like you don't well you don't like the idea of of the of anything that sounds like that sounds like work in the sense of this is what God is calling us to do to to honor him, to worship him.
SPEAKER_01Well, let me remind you that I went to seminary for eight years in order to get that seminary degree. At the same time, I was a full-time um on the faculty at Baylor, and um I was commuting twice a week the last four years to Dallas. So there are times to be aggressive. That was I can't tell you how hard that was. And um and it was just something I felt like I needed to do. And um I think I think you know when you need to. I don't know, I I feel like the Holy Spirit lays it on your heart. This is something I really need to do. And this is something I need to okay, sacrifice to do. But the the um the blessing of obedience is so much greater than the sacrifice. I don't you don't even think of it as a sacrifice, but uh it wasn't easy.
SPEAKER_03So why don't you think of it as a sacrifice?
SPEAKER_01Well, because I got so much more out of it. I mean, it just um meant so much to me to be able to do that. Um I grew tremendously in a spiritual sense. I learned so much. Um it was something that I have wanted to do since I was 15, and the Lord gave me the opportunity to do it, and He supplied the funds, and He supplied a place to live, and I just I feel like I was overwhelmingly blessed to to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_03So But you don't think that that those long hours in the library that those those experiences didn't you wouldn't equate that to worship. No, that was just that was just plain old work.
SPEAKER_01No, it was it was to honor the Lord, uh, in a sense. But it wasn't the same thing as coming aside and just focusing on him. There were times when I was focused on other stuff.
SPEAKER_03Um so I think that one of the takeaways for us is to to really get more focused on him and every day.
SPEAKER_01That's the thing. Uh I think that when when I hear people say work is worship, first of all, they got Genesis 2.15 wrong. They've got the Garden of Eden wrong, they've got what Adam and Eve are doing in the garden wrong, all right. And they're superimposing a post-fall concept of work on what went on in the garden. So let's get past that. Now we're post-fall, and it is hard to separate worship, you know, it's like you pointed out, there's so many things that you're doing uh on a Sunday that are, oh frankly, they're work. And so uh it's kind of hard to separate the worship from the work in the world that we're living in. But my my my concern about calling work worship, first theologically, they got the Genesis thing wrong. That's a problem. But even beyond that, it seems like an attempt to take something away from God that belongs exclusively to Him and to share it with whoever you're working for. And I I philosophically find that troubling. I'm not saying that everyone's doing that, I'm not saying that at all. I hope that at different times when I talk to my students about things, theological uh perspective on some business issues, that I'm you know, behaving in a way that is honoring to God.
SPEAKER_03Um But isn't this the kind of thing that that makes a business person want to just close up shop and go to and go to seminary and go and become a pastor, quote unquote, and just so that they can be closer to God, at least in their minds, that I can now that I'm a professional Christian, I'm I don't mean to sound uh discouraging, but but somehow I've um I'm I'm just doing a better job of it now. Right. Right. I mean, because that's that's one of to the credit of of those who have been advancing this idea of work as worship, and I certainly do believe uh personally that what I'm doing right now and having that this conversation with you, I mean, this is work, but I really believe, like I can sense the Lord's presence in the in the midst of this conversation. And as we pr we prayed before we got started on this, I mean I would think that we would as believers, we would want to pray, we would want to invoke God's presence, not in the sense of and I don't I don't necessarily see it as a zero-sum game where in the midst of this of this interview that like I'm I'm worshiping God in the way that I'm conducting myself in the midst of this, and just trying to be in tune with what the Lord is saying. I don't see that as me taking away from God and giving some to you and giving some to our listeners. At least that that's just the way that I frame it, and I'm as a lot of other things that I do professionally as well, and r the the down the the the temptation is to worship the work. And and to but and to not view the work I think when I don't view the work as worship, I view I worship the work. I mean to me that's kind of an inevitable thing where I get so bogged down into it that I can't even I can't even breathe spiritually because my awareness of the Lord is has just been snuffed out.
SPEAKER_01I think that's a very real concern. I mean that that's essentially you're talking about going too far the other direction. And that this concept that while I'm working, I'm worshiping kind of reins that in, keeps you from going uh too secular in your motivation. Um and I have no problem with that. I mean I I agree with you completely on all of those things. I just don't like call I I I just don't think it is theologically correct to call it worship. It's other things. And maybe maybe it's worship in a sense. Uh but it's you know, it's that's not uh a reason to neglect what is primarily worship.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I definitely do see where you're coming from. And I'll I so appreciate your emphasis on the Sabbath as well. If somebody is wondering, how can I what is a yeah, we like business people, we like actionable things. What what is one practical thing I can do walking away from this conversation and make sure that I'm not worshiping my work? And that is to take a Sabbath where you're just you're not you're not going to and you point out in your article the Sabbath is not just about going to the lake and fishing, watching football, whatever. But but then again, you know, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It it definitely should be if you feel like you're getting something out of the Sabbath, that makes sense because Jesus said it was made for you. If you feel restored as and refreshed going into your week, and there have been plenty of Sundays where I have not felt refreshed at at the end of it just because of doing things for the church, and I got a hold of that years ago, and it is just it's it's been s that taking a Sabbath has been the best time management and just one of the best spiritual management uh decisions I ever made to to s to just stay out of that rat race.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03What would what does your Sabbath day look like, Marjorie?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, we get up, we go to church, and um then we my husband and I usually go somewhere and have breakfast together. I know there are people who feel that you shouldn't do that, but we enjoy doing it. Then we come home and I usually spend the afternoon doing something quiet and um oftentimes um uh working on um questions I have, you know things that I'm um thinking about theologically.
SPEAKER_03Um I'm sorry, Marjorie, did you say you're working on the Sabbath?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, it well it it varies, but I I mean I might take a nap, but I might um I might work on something theological that refreshes me. So um I often do that.
SPEAKER_03What would be a parting piece of advice to encourage our listeners, uh especially around this idea of of the Sabbath? I mean, how how important is that and what what does somebody need to do? Let's say that Sunday is just I mean, and I I I experience this with clients. I don't know what I don't know if they have another day of the week that they that they set up set off, but I'll get I'll get text messages, emails. I really try to educate them that look, I'm not responding on Sundays, but uh a lot of business people they don't have any boundaries.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, we mentioned That in the article too. Um, I I don't really have a lot of problem with that because of the kind of work I do, you know, being a university professor. If I want to be out of pocket on the weekend, I can do that pretty well. I I sincerely sympathize with the business people, especially those who have a boss that expects them to be working through throughout the weekend, for example.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I've been there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I and I'm sure and I know there are plenty of them out there. Um I can't tell people what to do. You know, you all have to make your decision, you and the Lord, together. I I at one point in my life chose deliberately to get out of the rat race. I got my MBA and I decided I don't want to go to work for a big corporation that's going to eat up my life. I'm going to go into academia where I have a little more control. Um, so I'm sympathetic with people uh that are um wrestling with this, and and um you may you know it's it's not for me to tell them what to do, it's between them and the Lord. I think you're happier if you find a slower pace of life than what we've got going on in our in the business world right now.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Well said, well said. Marjorie, thank you so much for uh taking your time here toward the end of the day to share with our listeners. Um where what would be the best place for people to hear more from you? And we're certainly gonna link up to the article uh that provides some of the inspiration for this discussion. That'll be in the show notes. Um, anywhere else you'd recommend people go.
SPEAKER_01I don't have anything else out there on this particular topic. My co-author is going to be writing on this topic, uh, and but um he hasn't written the paper yet, and then it will be in a theological journal. Um so, you know, I don't really have anything else out on this topic except this one paper right now. Um well it's it's plenty of meat in it for our stuff I've got coming out is on uh 1 Timothy chapter 2 about women teaching in the church. Um had an article in Presbyterian um in spring and another one coming out this coming spring on that passage.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's good that you dig into such uh non-controversial topics.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I know.
SPEAKER_03Well, this has been a great discussion, Marjorie. Thank you so much for uh taking your time out and looking forward to continuing the conversation.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for inviting me. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we'd greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.