On today's episode, we'll be discussing religious diversity in the workplace. And we're joined by Kent Johnson. Kent was a senior counsel at Texas Instruments Incorporated. He was actually there for 37 years and finished as a senior council. And he was in different assignments there over the years. And has had responsibility for legal support of nearly all of TI's worldwide businesses and business functions. And uh I don't know about you guys, but for me, when I hear text instruments, I immediately get flashbacks to uh high school math and my uh TI3 calculator that I had a sort of a love-hate relationship with. Ken is passionate about diversity in the workplace, and he served on governing boards of private schools and churches, and is a frequent speaker on the topic of faith in the workplace. And he got his jurisdictor from Villanova School of Law, and he now offers management consulting services related to religious diversity in the workplace to show companies how to appropriately accommodate religious expression and also advise institutions on how to interact with people of other faith. You can check out what he's doing at religiousdiversity at work.com. On a personal note, I had the privilege of hearing Kent speak over a phenomenal presentation at the Faith and Works Summit this past October, uh actually two years, two Octobers ago. And uh we're delighted to have him today. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Kent.
SPEAKER_02Thanks a lot, Darren. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_01Well, tell us about your former role at Texas Instruments and how you became so passionate about religious diversity in the workplace.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, it's been an interesting uh evolution, quite frankly. I I've worked for TI for a long time as a lawyer, just a generalist in the law and compliance and ethics and product liability, uh during mergers and divestitures, uh employee relations types of things. And at a certain point, uh a group of friends and I uh were involved in founding a Christian values initiative, a group that would be focused specifically on applying our faith to work and uh engaging with um all aspects of the work vocally with respect to our our beliefs. You know, I the reason I'm so passionate about this is interesting. I uh just came from a missions conference from my denomination that was just incredible. It was about 2,000 people from all over the world, and they were uh some of them were dressed in the native uh costumes or you know, normal dress, I guess. And it was an incredibly diverse group, and not just Americans who had relocated in various countries, but indigenous people. And it looked to me like uh the halls of Texas Instruments, literally. The workplaces are so diverse today and growing more and more diverse. And I saw this as I negotiated uh transactions with other companies. It wasn't just my company that was becoming much more diverse, it's many companies across the board who were attracting employees from other countries, like countries like Bangladesh. I mean, countries you wouldn't think would be engaged in high-tech. Well, that experience at Texas Instruments and many other companies just really impressed on me a tremendous need to connect with people, just like the missionaries were talking about connecting. And so that is the real reason for my passion for diversity, for understanding people of other faiths, uh, people of other cultures, languages, temperaments, you know, habits and uh backgrounds, and and really uh having a concerted strategic focus on diversity in the workplace. Another factor that really struck me, and a reason why it's important, I think, for believers to be focused on diversity, is that a lot of those folks who are not believers, when they come to a place like the United States, they presume that this is a Christian country. I frankly don't believe it's a Christian country, if it ever was. But they they're worried about the powers uh that be. And if people who are Christian are very vocal about their faith, there's a risk that they will drive people away. So there's a real need among Christians to understand how to relate to people of other cultures. So that's another reason why I'm pretty passionate about religious diversity in particular in the workplace, because it's all around us. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, they're all around us.
SPEAKER_01And you just moved to Houston, which is the most uh ethnically diverse city in the entire uh United States. I was in New York City before I came to Houston a couple years ago, and recently Houston surpassed even New York City, which I thought was would be there'd be no way a city could be more international than New York. Uh, but but it's Houston. Did that have a lot to do with why you decided to move down here?
SPEAKER_02Well, the main I have to confess, the main reason we moved down here was to be near grandchildren.
SPEAKER_03Oh, there you go.
SPEAKER_02I was retired from TI and I wanted to be near the grandchildren, but as God would have it, at the time when I was just shifting over to my new vocation, um, he put us in the county. There's actually the most diverse county in the country is uh Fort Bend County, and that's where I live now. So it's very exciting. He also put me down in the midst of Hurricane Harvey, a time when people in this tremendously diverse population were reaching out to one another with kindness and uh gifts and help without any hope for return, and that that was and that was happening just left and right. It was absolutely uh inspiring to come into a very diverse culture and see people helping one another when they had nothing in common. And uh and seeing the word of God, quite frankly, going out in the context of kindness and uh caring. Uh when you talk to people, what was the motivation behind your reaching out uh to strangers in this area? They almost invariably would tell you, well, it's my faith that's driving me to this. My faith uh was the impetus behind that kindness. And that's another aspect of workplace diversity that I focus on is you know, what people really crave in the workplace, what bosses really would love to see, is initiative taken from the heart. Someone sees a problem and then goes and attacks that problem, whether it's whether it's his job or someone else's job, to help the company succeed. So just looking at it from that perspective, that spirit uh is harnessed and is encouraged in a lot of cases by people's faith background. They they see something, they sense God is uh in this, their faith relates to their work, they're gonna take care of that problem, and they're gonna do it with energy and excitement and uh and and not feel resentment about having to do extra work. And that's the spirit of how hardy that I think a lot of companies would be do would do well uh to seek to apply to the workplace as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and then you even got the uh the benefit as well of being here when Houston, even after what all we've been through, now the Houston Astros have won their first World Series in history. Uh but it it truly was incredible and and has been incredible to and it's it's an ongoing effort, folks, to uh to rebuild Houston after the the costliest natural disaster in the history of the United States. But you know, when something like that happens, uh or even in the workplace, I mean there's there's things that have to get done. And and you know, just to put aside the differences and let's focus on on getting the job done. I mean, uh I just I love I love this message that you're that you're bringing. But what can what are some of the biggest blunders that you find business leaders and other business professionals making when it comes to religious diversity?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, just the other day I was corresponding with a human resource professional who was wrestling, really wrestling with the problem presented when one of their employees said, I'd like to start a prayer group at work. And they're saying, Oh, gee, I don't want to open the door to this. One of the biggest blunders, in my belief, in my estimation, in my experience, that companies uh make is prohibiting prayer meetings. And now, many of the people on this call would say, Wow, that's incredible. How could somebody be so silly to turn up? Even if you're a non-believer, I have yet to, even if you're a person who is an atheist, the atheists that I've approached and said, uh I can I pray for you, have basically said, Well, you know, that's your thing. If you feel like it, go ahead. I don't care, you know. That's the worst reaction. Almost always you get the opposite reaction, which is absolutely by all means, even if I'm a Muslim, I want you to pray for me. I don't have any compunction about that. So prohibiting prayer meetings is a very big disincentive. It kind of turns believers off when they think their employer is saying, you've got to check your faith at the door. You know, don't don't come uh bringing your faith. The other thing is shutting down discussion of faith-based motivations. You know, as a lawyer, I'm constantly focused on companies' culture. How do we develop a culture of compliance with the law, the very bare minimum of what a company should do? How do we avoid having, you know, the scandals like we see in Volkswagen's cheater device that went on for years and nobody blew the whistle? How do we have a culture where people are compelled to stand up and speak truth to power when there's wrong going on? How do you do that? Well, one way is to open the door to faith-based motivations, enable people to talk about that and encourage one another in the faith. And a lot of different beliefs, not just Christianity, stand for the proposition that you tell the truth and you obey the law. And these are powerful motivations for a lot of people, not for everybody, but for a lot of people. The third big blunder I see is firing people instead of coaching them. You know, we do have some Christians, believe it or not, who get a little bit overaggressive and who really do things and say things that are misinterpreted often. So I mean, if you're not a Christian, if you're not going to my church, you're not going to advance in this company. That is that is deadly, uh, not only from a legal standpoint, it's wrong and it's not productive. We cannot get converts through a compulsion. And the Bible is clear about that, I think. So I think that's a big blunder, though, of companies which tend to move in some cases too swiftly when really what the individual needs is coaching. I think the Christian community needs to be better equipped to coach our own people. It's going to be much more effective than if management comes in and says, Oh, you've got to zip the lip, you can't say anything about your face. That's the wrong answer.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02So those are the three biggest blunders, in my estimation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I I think you had a lot of different facets of the issue, you know. From a Christian's perspective, I I know that more and more there are workplace Bible studies and prayer groups and things like that going on uh that are actually facilitated by the leaders. I was actually just in one last week uh at Cohen Woodworking, which is the fastest cabinet manufest growing cabinet manufacturer in the country. And just amazing what's happening up there. You know, there were the there were, I think, 12 guys around this table at its workplace Bible study being led by the CEO of the company. Um but you know, to make people feel like that you're not gonna advance in this company unless you come to my Bible study, that is that's not gonna get us very far. You know, that that just kind of discourages people and makes them not want to come to work, you know. And and on the flip side, as you pointed out, when you shut down things like that and say, no, you can't pray at at work, you know, you can't talk about your your religious motivation at work, you know, that's gonna that's gonna shut things down as well. It makes people not wanna not want to get the job done because they can't work together, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes. And yeah, Darren, let me let me say something on that because there is a tendency among companies that consider themselves Christian companies to be a little bit on the swagger side, and that is just really counterproductive. I have to be frank here. I feel it's important that you know this message that I have for companies is not just for the big multinationals, it's also for the small companies that they may not realize that their employee base and the uh employees of the um suppliers that they engage closely with, the people that they have strategic alliances with, that they're from different place than they are. That their workplace is not a church, it's not a uh a place where everybody agrees to a safe statement of doctrine. And so people can easily be offended. We have to walk more sensitively and kindly than we do, quite frankly. There's an excellent book called Unchristian by a guy named Kinneman uh Polster, who asked a lot of people who do not identify as Christians, what is your view of Christians? And their definition of a Christian in their mind is somebody who is against things. We are against gays and lesbians, we are against people who disagree with us, and we are a militant, and we want them to know that they're inferior and we are superior. Well, that's a distortion of the Christian faith. The worst sinner is no worse than me. I am the chief of sinners. And so, you know, but that impression is out there. So we have to walk very softly and listen to them. And as we insist on freedom of religious expression for Christians, we have to defend freedom of religious expression for other religions. And this is something that some Christians don't feel very comfortable with. They say, Why are you giving a platform for the Muslim faith? Well, for very good reason, in our case, because the dialogue is hugely productive. When you talk to missionaries who go to countries that are predominantly another religion, they say, listen to them and earn a relationship and a and a mutual respect that enables you to talk about our religion as well. And in our case, as believers, we understand that the Holy Spirit inhabits his word. It's a sort of unfair advantage that we have. And in that context, the free marketplace of ideas is tremendously beneficial for believers.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr. And you made a one of the observations that I love that you have made is to the question of can I preach the gospel at work? And you say yes. Preach the gospel constantly to yourself at work. You know, not to say that you can't share your testimony and things like that, but but absolutely, you know, preach preach to yourself, you know, that you are working with the right motivations, that your heart is pure, you know, that you're doing your work with with excellence and all of the different facets of the gospel and representing uh the Lord Jesus Christ in our workplace. You know, you I love how you say preach the gospel to yourself constantly at work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and Darren, I obviously I'm passionate about that aspect. We've had we've launched uh mentoring business mentoring programs uh at at my company, Texas Instruments, that are focused on how the gospel informs this aspect of work, how the gospel informs that aspect of work. You know, and it starts, of course, with the acknowledgement of the fact we're no better. We're no better. When we come in with a spagger, oh we're the Christians and we're going to no, we're just going to uh be kind to these poor other people, we've got the attitude completely wrong. So we do need to constantly preach the gospel of uh undeserved favor that was lavishly poured on me. And so, how can I be anything but gracious and kind and listening and gentle uh when I talk to non-believers? Uh, you know, and the Bible talks about let your speech always be gracious. We we need to dial it back a bit sometimes.
SPEAKER_01What were some of those religious diversity initiatives that you implemented at Texas Instruments?
SPEAKER_02Well, some of the best practices I have seen at TI and that we have uh encouraged and walked with other companies to set up in their environments uh include panel discussions. This is so powerful, guys. Panel discussions among representatives, people who are employees, just regular employees, but they represent other religions, and you sit them side by side. So you have a Jew, a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Buddhist, all talking about how the religious, in their words, their tradition, the religious tradition or the religious beliefs impact their work. What are the teachings of my religion about work? And have those open discussions. What an opportunity. So you have representatives sitting up and their friends, their people of similar religion, are in the audience. And then also the management teams that have very diverse workforces that want to understand what makes my people tick, they're coming as well. And you have an unbelievable opportunity to explain the gospel of Jesus Christ and to this, and which is so important, to listen to the questions and answers uh regarding other people's faith. How is it that you gain favor with God? Well, in my case, I have, you know, I make a pilgrimage and I do this and I do that, and whatever the explanation is, it leads to sidebar discussions afterwards. So that's a big one. Panel discussion. Another one is holiday observances, actual worship services in the plants, in the manufacturing plants, bring music in and have open up your conference room and prayer sessions. Uh recruitment is a big one. People don't think about this. You want to get the best talent, no matter what religion they are. You want the best people in your company. And decidedly it's not just to get Christians. So you have the representative of the Muslim group. In our cases, uh Texas Instruments, we had a lot of Muslims and a lot of Buddhists. Uh and we we uh bring uh representatives of those groups to the colleges where we're recruiting, and we say, hey, you know, just like in college, you may have your religious, you know, affiliated groups that support you. We have that. You have a home at our company. Those are just some of the best practices.
SPEAKER_01I'm curious about the panel discussion. So in and I'm curious to know what what is said, what is expressed from the people of other faiths. So is it typically on the theme of of work and how my faith impacts my work? Is that often the direction those panels go?
SPEAKER_02Yes. In fact, we try to dial it into that or zero into that particular topic, but it's interesting. What we talk about is a motivation behind. So what is it that that impels you to do the right thing when nobody's looking? You know, what in your religion teaches you about that? Well, yeah, it's not, you know, it's either a set of do's and don'ts. Uh, and if I fail to do that, I won't uh gain favor with God, and I've got to earn that favor every day, and it's or the gospel, of course, is something entirely different. Why do we do the right thing when nobody's looking at us not to gain favor with God? We've already got that. God has paid the penalty for all of our shortcomings and our sins. We are clean, washed completely. And there's nothing we could do to gain greater favor with God. It's not a transaction. So for us, it is an act of worship to God because we love Him, because He first loved us. So those are the types of discussions. And the gospel comes through powerfully in those discussions.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I can I can only imagine. I would love to sit in on one of those and just hear what gets said. What are some of the other uh things that get said maybe from people from other faiths about specifically, because I'm really curious to know how people from other faiths, uh how their faith informs uh specifically how they work in business?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, integrity is a big issue in the definition of what it what integrity means, uh being consistent, telling the truth on a regular basis. Uh another very hot topic, especially when you have a Muslim representative, is how will you treat women who are your boss or your or or your um employee that that you're the supervisor of? How are you that fit in your religion? And they also, by the way, ask that question of the evangelical, who's usually me until recently. So I've heard these things about, you know, evangelicals believe that women are inferior and they need to be subjugated and what the heck. So you have an opportunity to clarify those things. And in the in the case of the Muslims uh who participated in these activities uh or these panel discussions, they're pretty quick to lay to rest any fear that they would uh look down upon women. Now, they will talk about culture, uh, you know, the fact that they cannot shake a hand of a woman uh that's inappropriate for their religion. In some cases, there's discussion about um uh you know going out to dinner alone with a woman, that that's improv, you know, please understand when they so those types of topics come up as well, which are really really helpful.
SPEAKER_01So if somebody's hearing that and they're thinking, I am gonna make a beeline for my boss's door and go and see if we can do something like that in our company. Uh, what where would they start and who would they get to to be the moderator for something like that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it well, bigger companies tend to have a real focus on diversity. So you'll have diversity directors. In fact, if you go online and just plug in the words diversity director, you'll you'll get a million hits. It's amazing. Very hot topic right now because workplaces are becoming more diverse, and I have to figure out how to deal with it. So those HR organizations are a good place to start. Now, uh, my experience has been that the initial reaction from human resource professionals is negative toward religion in most cases. They've been taught that religion is a divisive and uh causes a divisive topic. It's sort of like politics, you know, we're not gonna have Republican and Democrat debates. It just doesn't, it's not gonna help anything. They have the wrong view, I think, of what uh uh the kinds of uh discussions and activities we're talking about here in religious diversity can do. So the real answer is there's a process. Uh and companies I've I've worked with companies on a uh seven-step process, and it begins with an initial briefing for management to talk about what would this look like, and then a needs assessment. What's uh do you have a diverse enough uh group that it that this really makes sense? And then some scoping and planning and leadership orientation so that we're not sending a message of dominance or compulsion. You've got to hook up and connect with one religion or another, but rather of inclusiveness and appreciation of people just the way they are. And then policy and guidelines, you know, this can't be done uh haphazardly because people will get the wrong impression. They're quick to jump to conclusions, and especially if you're a Texas company, for instance, there many of many people will feel it's uh it's threatening to them if they're not Christians. So you need to be spend time with your communication plan. And then after you've got it up and running and people are doing various things, you need to have ongoing collaborative monitoring. Yeah. Having said all that, it sounds huge. To a small company, it'd be overwhelming because they don't have a diversity director. I would just say it's best not to have the CEO push this for the reason that it tends to be well, we want the CEO's support, obviously, but if the CEO is the one who's doing the talking, there's um there's a disadvantage to that. It sends perhaps the wrong message, which is one that's compulsory, and that, yeah, we we really want you to do this and you better get engaged in this. Again, it's very important that everyone understand it's uh thoroughly voluntary to get involved in these discussions to attend any of the activities. So those are the steps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I mean it it sounds like that type of company that takes that approach where the CEO is the one that is really essentially the um the chaplain for the company, you know, the Christian, the corporate chaplain for the company that's leading the Bible studies and so on. I mean, what what would what else would you say about that kind of a that kind of a company? Because that's that seems to be kind of what I hear a lot of people aspiring to uh in their you know, that are entrepreneurs, that are CEOs, that is, that they see themselves as, you know, they're gonna be the pastor of of the company in the sense of like a local church pastor.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, let me make this clear. I think it's wonderful when CEOs view their their uh workforce as a pastor and care about the the people. Uh and so absolutely I would say wonderful and do that in the sense in the generic pastoral sense of caring about them, of calling them when they're in the hospital, uh visiting them in the hospital. Anything you can do in that regard is wonderful. But it's kind of paradoxical that the people who have the most impact uh tend to be rank and file. Who look at it this way: when you're talking about integrity and you're wearing the CEO hat and you say everybody needs to do the right thing, well, and you and you create a policy that says you're gonna obey all the laws that apply. And people, a lot of them are jaded today. They they figure I know what the CEO really means. The CEO, you know, wants us to do the not to get in trouble. So if we're gonna do something bad, we've got to do it on the sly. He's got to do it under under the table. I know what he really wants or she really wants is short-term profitability. And it's the same thing with religious convictions. People tend to think that uh people in power are saying things in order to look good, or because they have to, because they're in a position of power. Uh the regular person doesn't. And that's why you know at the the conference that you mentioned earlier, Darren, I used the example of a woman who was a uh administrative assistant who had a huge impact on uh on my department. Uh and the I just think when people speak up who don't speak from power but speak to power boldly, um that's when folks sit up and listen. So really want to encourage the rank and file to to be engaged.
SPEAKER_01So who do you put I mean, who who does need to be that grassroots leader of the diversity initiatives in a workplace? I mean, if not the CEO, then and and let's say that you know you don't your company is say um, you know, 50 people, something like that, maybe less, and you don't have the budget, or maybe you feel like you don't have the budget, I guess maybe you would argue with that, um, that you do have the budget if it's a priority. Um what would you say to a company leader who really sees the need uh but they just don't know who to really call for? Obviously they need to reach out to use, but do you uh do you offer sort of like outsourced uh diversity programming, or are you doing it on a consultant basis?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm not the um the idea of actually outsourcing religious diversity completely is I think counterproductive. I think really what we need to do is to equip the laity for the work ministry in the workplace. Uh frankly, I think churches have got to be the place where a lot of the training of the laity takes place. They have to begin to view workers as missionaries who are being dis uh sent into the workplace, which is the world. Uh now, where that's not happening, I think there's a lot of resources that can help help believers with that. When you're talking to companies, I have uh you know a number of things. I can walk through the um walk through with management of a smallish company, that would be fine. I'm uh happy to do that to show them how people have done this elsewhere, but you're gonna need some indigenous leaders, some people who uh sense the movement of God in their lives. And uh the leaders are the key to making this actually work well. Um how do you you know a lot of people today are nervous about coming out in the very real sense, coming out as Christian in the workplace. I don't want people to to think I'm a Bible thumper or something, I'm and they feel intimidated. Management can send a simple message that you don't need to be intimidated, whatever your religion is. This is not a Christian, it's not one particular type of religion that we're promoting, but we want you to bring your whole self to work. And when managers just put out that free, say you should feel free to do that. They can send that message, and that can be the starting point, and just see what the Lord will do. He will raise up laity who will say, I'm gonna walk through that door. And uh and more and more we'll be uh we'll be doing that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because you point out that believe go ahead.
SPEAKER_02I was just gonna say, if there's nobody uh uh if they put out that message that we are opening the door to religious discourse in this company and we have guidelines, we we can help you if you're interested, contact us and let's just look at the what the possibilities are that if nobody says anything, to me, that's a sign of they don't really believe that you're serious.
SPEAKER_01And you point out that believer Christians really need to understand that you're you're essentially in exile, you're in sort of a Babylonian environment in you know in out in the culture. Um and so we ought not to necessarily try to assume that we're just gonna kind of transplant our local church service into the workplace. Is that right?
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. You know, one thing that's been a wonderful learning experience for us at TI and for many other companies is how this um uh builds relationships among people of different Christian denominations and sects. And you know, we're not uh we're not being real picky, uh, and I think that's the most wonderful thing in the world because we get to talk about uh our our doctrine with each other. And uh again, in the free marketplace of ideas, I think uh the Holy Spirit does this work. So it is, it's a very um ecumenical kind of thing, and a lot of Christians feel negative toward that. Oh, gee, you're gonna compromise the truth. No, never, never, never compromise the truth. But uh we are called as believers in exile in a country that is not our own to bless the culture in which God has placed us, to make this company uh great, you know, to help it achieve its legitimate uh goals and and to bless it in every way that we can. And uh part of that is loving the people, a huge part of it is just loving the people regardless of their faith, and having the attitude, there's nothing you don't need to convert before I love you. I love you before you convert. God Christ sent, you know, he he was running after me when I was running the other direction. That's my model. And I uh I'm not gonna wait until you convert before I love you, and I'm just gonna care about you. That is that is a powerful, powerful uh message, and it's our workplace every day. Every day we're going in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you know, Kent, uh years ago, I've I've I've been to the UN a couple times, as I'm sure you have. And and have you been in the prayer room there?
SPEAKER_02I have not.
SPEAKER_01It has been one of the most exciting places I've ever prayed in my entire life. They they have a it's uh it's like a little chapel, it's a little prayer room in the UN, if you can imagine that. But certainly it's not it's not set up for any one religion. It's set up basically if you get a you get a sense that it's kind of like when Paul was at uh you know speaking to the men of Athens that that uh you're praying to all these gods, but that here's the uh and and you're praying to this unknown god, and that's basically the way they have it set up. It it's there's like a it's sort of like an altar, but it's all very it's all very neutral. Um and so you'll be in there if you go in there to pray, you'll there'll be uh there'll be Hindus and Muslims and you know people from all different faith backgrounds in there, but it just gets sense that uh that you know God is is the whole the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, uh not just on your you know evangelical cohort. You know, that that He really is his heart is for people from all different backgrounds. Uh and but it made me it it makes me think about people who work in those uh very idyllic uh companies where the CEO is not a Christian, the HR policies are not favorable, and in many cases are hostile uh to Christians, uh but that you can you can be the, even if you're not a leader in the company, you know, there's there's things that that you can do. What would you say to maybe somebody that isn't the they're not the leader of the company, but and they feel like they're in a company like that where they really are uh in an exile and they feel like they there's nothing they can do about it. What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_02I'd say engage with your management with some of these ideas that we're talking about today, and uh just suggest that they consider it and uh that help help them um uh think through it by uh you know suggesting that they contact people like me who can put them in touch with companies that have done this well. So it's not uh so they're not just um doing something that's wild and crazy. Now it's becoming more normal and accepted. And when they connect with uh you know companies with good reputations that have done this well, they'll feel a little bit better about it. So those are those are some ideas. But let me caution you on something because you said something that piqued my interest. The the whole idea that you are there is obviously a degree of acceptance of Christianity in a workplace, and you know, from one workplace to the other, it'd be radically different. But um don't I hope you don't people don't get the impression that they are um among that a company is actually a Christian company and uh therefore it's no holds barred and everything's comfortable there because it is it is the world and you're surrounded by unbelievers, especially when you know you think about the times in history when the power uh of a nation uh was uh repu reputedly or supposedly Christian. Those are the periods when Christianity has been in decline. It's been the times when we've been the minority, when we have been the exiles, that we have grown. And it's a paradox, but it's certainly demonstrable in history that uh God uses us uh in a position of weakness, not from a position of strength. That his power is manifest in our weakness. And so to aspire, you know, to have that kind of an environment where uh every room maybe has uh um ten commandments on it, or yeah, whatever it is. I I'm not against the Ten Commandments, I'm a big fan. But uh but I think uh we do have to walk softly in that, even if we think we're in a company that's that's friendly, because that's where people are most cowed uh and uh oppressed and uh uh nervous about us. And they are nervous. Anyway, I don't want to be negative, I don't want to end on a negative note here because I love having Christ in the workplace, but we have to be careful.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, just uh to go forward with that analogy a little bit to the Old Testament and being in in exile, and you know, I know the the Bible makes it clear that that there definitely is that sense in which we're in exile, you know, that this earth is not our home, certainly. Uh, but you know, when we're when the children of Israel were in exile, you know, they wanted to go back to the promised land, right? And that didn't mean that the promised land necessarily uh had nothing but uh, you know, there were foreigners there, you know, there were people that were you know very you know morally wretched uh people there. And and so it didn't mean that everything otherwise they wouldn't have gone into exile in the first place if everything was uh intact from God's perspective. Uh but is that isn't that the kind of thing that and I know that it's different in a publicly traded company where there are, for example, I think about True Cathy and the way that he said to his heirs to never take this company public, because then you're not gonna be able to you're not we're not gonna be able to give to the types of causes or or to the extent that we want to be able to give. Um there's isn't there something to be said for really kind of striving for that identity as a Christ-centered company?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I hear you. Uh certainly a company that embraces the uh values of Christianity is an advantage and it's going to be greatly blessed, and that's part of what we seek uh to influence in in our companies. Um I yeah, so I'm I'm with you there. Uh it's just a question of whether it is profitable to uh to come on so strong that people feel uh that they're being devalued, they're not being listened to, uh, and and that this is imposed against people's will. That doesn't uh advance the cause of Christ um at all in my estimations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, what would be a parting piece of advice you could leave with our listeners today, Kent?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'd ask for prayer. I'd ask for prayer for workplaces around the world and for us, for me, for my my effort, if you'd be so kind, if anybody remembers uh me uh and and this uh effort, pray for me because I need it. Um contact colleagues who might be receptive to these ideas. I I would really encourage many people who are listening to step out of the comfort zone. You don't um you know you do have legal rights. Uh I I don't, you know, advocate people being Obnoxious in the way they express their legal rights, but they should be more people are too afraid, I think, in the workplace. They think that uh the the restrictions on religious expression are are greater than they really are. You have a lot more freedom than you might think. But most of all, I mean the bottom line to me is to have respect and love for your diverse co-workers, no matter what they believe or do. And if you do that and you do that well, uh you you really care about them regardless of the religious affiliation.
SPEAKER_01That that that value and priority of respect, I mean, what a what a game changer that will be in people not only in the workplace but in marriages and with you know just just interacting with people, just the especially who those who don't believe the way we do, but just treating them with respect, I think, is just such a powerful uh way to reveal Jesus to people. And and Kent, you asked us to to pray for you, and and certainly we want people to pray ongoing, but I'm gonna pray for you right now. Thank you, Heavenly Father. I lift up Kent and religious diversity at work. Thank you for this organization that you have birthed and uh and how you birthed it so long ago, even before it had this name, God, you knew what it was called. And because you are so passionate about showing love and respect to people, uh, no matter no matter what they believe, God, even no matter what our background is, God, you are for us and not against us. And and this the more that we run with that message, God, the more people uh are gonna see it, that they're gonna understand and be transformed by it. Just continue to give them wisdom, give him favor, and open doors, whether it's with CEOs or administrative assistants or anyone in the organization, God, that just sees the need. Uh, we just pray for those people, God. You will give them the the moral courage to step up and to uh get something like this going uh to make it a priority, to make sure that people uh that their workplace is a safe place, that really is a sanctuary, that they don't have to feel uh like they don't belong. Um, and just for how you are revealed through that uh when it's when it's done well. And in Jesus' name, amen.
SPEAKER_02Amen. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Well, brother, this has been phenomenal. I know I'm encouraged and inspired. Um, got a lot of really uh practical insights here, you know. I love the idea about the panels uh as well. I think that's such a great way to kind of get some conversation going. And that's I mean, that's really what if we can't have a conversation. I mean, that's to me, that's kind of a barometer for where we're at, you know, aside from many other policies that are coming down. But if to just be able to talk it out, I think is just so healthy. This has been phenomenal. Uh, we appreciate you, Kent, and may God continue to bless uh your ministry.
SPEAKER_02And yours. Thank you so much for doing these podcasts. They are absolutely great. I've listened to a bunch of them.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity of Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.