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SPEAKER_03On today's episode, we'll be discussing Best Christian Workplaces, and we're joined by Al Lopez. Al is the president and co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces Institute, which was founded in 2002. This institute provides research-based measurement tools and culture change advisory services with a single vision to help Christian organizations set the standard as the best, most effective workplaces in the world. And at BCWIL has conducted the broadest ever employee opinion survey of Christian workers. And this includes more than 300 churches and over 900 Christian organizations overall. And many of those actually were businesses, which is what has brought us to this conversation today. And this survey is just massive. It represents 233,000 full-time employees around the world. He's a recognized author, speaker, and consultant helping Christian leaders and organizations to flourish. And also encourage you to check out his weekly blog highlighting a best Christian workplace and also the Flourishing Culture podcast, which features tips from Christian leaders on how to build a flourishing culture. I was just listening to the episode before we got on here. Just a phenomenal podcast. bcwinstitute.com is the website. I'll mention that again at the end of this episode. But without further ado, welcome to the Christianity and business podcast, Al.
SPEAKER_01Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much, Darren.
SPEAKER_03You know, Al, what really led me to this conversation is I've started to notice that the title of being a best place to work seems to kind of become the new status symbol in the corporate world. And there seems to be somewhat of a lesser emphasis on who's the fastest growing company and who's the biggest company and the richest people and so on. But where do people actually want to work? And I mean it seems like that says a lot about the uh the quality of the values in that company, and that that's probably a place where I'd not only want to work, but that's who I want to do business with. Is this what you're noticing?
SPEAKER_01Clearly, culture has become one of the primary drivers uh and and issues that executives are looking at. You know, Peter Drucker started a long time ago saying culture eats strategy for lunch. You you've heard that uh saying. And uh so how do you begin to develop culture and and even identify whether you've got a good one or not? And so uh the best companies to work for, gosh, it's been around a long time. I actually spent a day with the great place to work institute in San Francisco, Robert Levering, uh is the granddaddy of the best companies to work for, and he and uh it's been fascinating to see how that's grown. Before I started the Best Christian Workplaces, Darren, I actually worked with the statewide business magazines and my previous employer, uh the Watson Wyatt, it's now called uh Willis Towers Watson, and we did the best companies to work for survey in Washington and Oregon. So we worked with probably a thousand different uh organizations surveying their workforce. And this was back at the turn of the century, that sounds so long ago. Uh but one of the drivers to your question is in a labor market that's as tight as ours is right now, uh, the ability to attract and retain top talent is in fact one of the critical differences and a differentiator for organizations. Are they able to do that? And and if they if they if an organization really hopes to grow, they need to be able to attract really uh highly capable people. And you know, with a tight labor market, that's tougher. So for CEOs, for senior leaders and companies, this is a very timely topic. So that's probably why these best companies to work for lists are are you know looked at and treasured. Uh in fact, you know, the other driver of this is millennials. Millennials are coming into the workforce, and they have a different uh view of work than boomers do. Uh, I'm in the boomer group, but uh they certainly have a different view. And I can tell you, uh I've got a daughter that works at LinkedIn in uh Silicon Valley, and uh they have a very different attitude, a very positive attitude about the workplace and why they want to be a best company to work for because of its ability to uh attract uh really top talent. So so it is clearly uh something the culture drives this, the importance of culture. And you know, it's one thing to have a uh financial statement, you know, when you look at a financial statement in a business, that really tells you the health of the business in the past. I like to think that if you're if you've got a great culture survey, you're able to actually predict what the what the success of the organization will be in the future. And uh so it's a very future-looking uh uh measurement tool that helps companies really focus on the things that they can improve to to make their future better. So yeah, I think you're right. Uh these are clearly uh uh programs that companies are very interested in.
SPEAKER_03And especially as Christians, I mean, this when you talk about what is the bottom line, well, as a Christian, there are pro there are multiple bottom lines, and certainly the way that we take care of the people uh that we work with uh should be right there as as the main thing that we're looking at, because in a in the sense of you talk about the eternal perspective, you know, when we when we stand before God one day, uh he's gonna want to know how did you uh shepherd the people that I brought into your uh into your world uh to uh to supervise and to and to lead and to help and to serve. And so now you have created at the Best Christian Workplace Institute a a survey and you surveyed 233,000 full-time Christian workers and and because the the the certification that you've created is not just sort of something you kind of just kind of pulled out of your uh your head, but that is based on the research on the survey. You know, what what is the type of place where people really are happy to work? You know, what what is a healthy culture and is based on those individual responses? So what were some of those uh findings that you studied and particularly from those uh Christian businesses that you studied?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, first of all, uh the way you become a best Christian workplace is to participate in a broad-based uh staff engagement survey. And we have a survey that's got over 50 questions, and we ask a variety of questions, and that's that's how we then evaluate and select and determine based really on the survey results who's a best Christian workplace or not. And I found, you know, to answer part of your question, I found in our research there are four levels of health in an organization. The first level, and unfortunately, is toxic, and everybody knows that what it feels like to work in a toxic environment. Another is the next level up we consider critical moments. Uh then we get to the healthy stage, and that's when we say people are certified as the best Christian workplace when they get into the healthy stage of a culture, and then there's flourishing above that. And so we've determined there are four levels of health, and the survey that we uh employ uh really helps to identify what the level of health is so that we can certify them. And what we found, Darren, more directly to your question, as a result of this research, you know, as you said, hundreds of thousands of workers, we find that there are eight drivers. And I haven't seen this any place else in terms of uh research. We work with uh Seattle Pacific University, which is a which is a Christian university similar to uh Houston Baptists, and uh they have an uh the only graduate degree, uh PhD degree program in industrial organizational psychology. And they have statisticians, and we've worked over our data uh year after year after year, and there are eight drivers of engagement in uh in organizations. We find this to be true in Christian organizations as well as Christian-owned businesses, and uh these eight drivers really drive uh staff engagement and build a healthy culture, and again, either either healthy or flourishing is what we're uh really driving for. One of the other things I'll just mention, Darren, to to your point, uh which is really a good one, as a Christian leader, as we stand before God, how how is this an important thing? Well, what we uh what we read in the scripture is that people is that God, I'm sorry, that God really cares about people and who work for us. It's people. And uh as not only in Christian organizations, but Christian-owned businesses, uh I believe God wants us to be faithful in in loving and serving the people that He's created. And uh for us to really shepherd those folks in a sense, uh, not only uh you know from a productivity standpoint, but also from a from a spiritual standpoint as well. So yeah, we uh uh really, really care about that. And when uh after working in the secular world for you know 25 or so years and 21 years with a number one uh or a top-tier human resource consulting firm, I I was convicted and really called uh to come to Christian organizations because oftentimes it's been the secular organizations that have better culture than even Christian organizations. And so I believe that Christian organizations should set the standard as the best, most effective places to work in the world. And of course, uh it's much more sophisticated than the Great Commandment that Jesus and left with us, but uh that they'll know the way uh that they'll know us by the way we love one another. And uh and that's probably a good measure in itself, but uh uh uh but there's more to it. But yeah, eight drivers really.
SPEAKER_03Uh uh, what are those eight drivers?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Well I'm glad you asked, Aaron. I think our listeners would be very interested. We found that uh that organizations that have fantastic teams that provide life-giving work, that really attract and retain outstanding talent, that provide uh growth and development and what we call uplifting growth, that provide rewarding compensation and benefits, that that have inspirational leadership, and uh that requires uh the leaders to be healthy themselves, to have then where an organization has a sustainable strategy in healthy communication. And we actually created that was that was determined based on our statistical analysis, but we put adjectives in the front of it, and actually spells flourish. So fantastic teams, life-giving work, outstanding talent, uplifting growth, rewarding compensation, inspirational leadership, sustainable strategy, and healthy communication.
SPEAKER_03And this is based off of not just an interview with the CEO who says, hey, you know, we've got a great, we're a great place to work, you know, people love working here, and then you go and talk to, you know, some of their entry-level folks and or folks that have been there for a long time, but they've just kind of been grinning and bearing it, and they really don't like to wake up in the morning and go to work there. But this is based on if you're gonna, if if it's determined that your culture is flourishing, your company or your organization is flourishing, that's gonna be based off of what the people say, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's exactly right. You know, it reminds me of the time uh I went to the publisher of the statewide business magazine up here in Washington, and he was producing a list of the best companies to work for in Washington every year. And I said, So how do you determine who the best companies are to work for in Washington? And he said, Well, we send them a questionnaire. Oh, a questionnaire, okay. And who who do you think answers that questionnaire? And you know, Hawes, and you know, it was a pause, and he kind of looked down a little bit and he said, Well, we get most of them from the public relations department. Oh, of course. You know, it's like, so I think, you know, I asked him, I said, so you think there'd be a different answer of who the best companies are to work for if the actually the employees were to answer a questionnaire? And you know, he probably agreed, and that's exactly when we uh uh caused him to transition from doing that, you know, uh company-based uh, you know, PR questionnaire versus uh an employee survey. So yeah, it's this is based on uh again hundreds of thousands of employee surveys taken in a confidential basis, uh and not based on my view of what it would take uh to be a best company to work for or best Christian workplace, or not based on really even uh uh a culmination of smart people's views, but it's based on on employees' input.
SPEAKER_03And and we it must be a rude awakening for a lot of those those organizational leaders at first, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it uh it really is. Uh and and I've taken, I've just, you know, with our our ten uh people that work with us, I've just had them complete the Best Christian Workplace Survey. Uh and you know, as a as an individual receiving those scores, uh, you know, your heart kind of pounds a little bit. Uh it's like, okay, so really what do they do I really want to know? You know, so yeah. And you know, on our uh on our website, um, and Bill Heibels in 2013 at the Global Leadership Summit talked about how he used uh happened to be our survey, but a staff engagement survey, uh, and the first results that they got received back was near toxic. And the journey that they went on for the next three or four years to really move from near toxic to uh to a flourishing culture, and uh that's really he he talks about it. You know, he said, I got that first survey report and it was pain on a stick. It was pain on a stick. And you know, um, but you know, as he also says, facts are our friends, and you know, we need to look at data, we need to look at, you know, this is a way of just looking at ourselves uh in the mirror uh in in our organization. And you know, we've worked with Christian owned businesses. It's not, it's uh it isn't easy any easier for them, for those leaders to uh look at the results.
SPEAKER_03I love that. So what are what are some of the areas that are the most commonly uh where the responses from those employees that it's just the most consistently negative response that you get that really is the the the point that is holding a lot of these organizations back from reaching that flourishing level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. Uh you know, a logical thing that everybody would point to might be compensation. And uh what we find is that compensation isn't the driver. Everybody talks about it because it's a it's it's a well it's a topic. Everybody talks about it, but it's really not the driver for staff engagement that that we read about. And that's what our research is showing, and that's true for for you know for-profit organizations as well as those that are not for-profit. One of the the number one driver and and it's in our research shows that there's two things that really are driving uh flourishing cultures. That's inspirational leadership, and it's and it's also the factor of life-giving work. And particularly as as we're bringing millennials uh more and more into the workplace, they're looking for life-giving work. Work where you know they feel like they can use their their strengths and their skills, work where they where you know they they know what's expected of them, work where they have some decision-making authority, that they're they're just not uh uh micromanaged, you know, uh work where they feel like what they do is making a difference in the world. Uh so life-giving work is is right up there with inspirational leadership, and in many cases that is the most important thing. And you know, when we look at inspirational leadership, we're really looking at three things. We're looking at the character of a leader, we're looking at their uh uh and in Christian organizations, here's here's an interesting part. We're looking at their Christian character. So we ask the question, for example, and uh and business leaders uh, you know, just uh you know pay attention, this is really interesting. We ask leaders in Christian organizations, leaders, here's the question. Uh leaders in my organization model the fruit of the Holy Spirit. So love, joy, peace, etc. But uh even in our even in uh for-profit companies, we ask the question, leaders in my organization model humility? Or uh leaders in my organization have compassion for people at all levels. And we find that um, you know, and I I'm really grateful for Jim Collins, who in the in the book Built the Last said there are two qualities of level five leaders. Humility is one of them. And in uh, you know, the scripture just has humility and the importance of humility written all the way through it. And in our in our culture, and even in business, humility is not uh not uh uh a high uh high requirement. So so character, just to get to uh your question, character, Christian character, character, and then secondly, uh trust and integrity. And you could say, well, that might be part of in character, but we see that that's just a little separate. It's you know, do people really uh do what they say they're going to do? Uh do they have relationships where they are trustworthy? And then the third area is operational excellence in uh in inspirational leadership. Is is this translating our our leaders, and this is one of the things people look for leaders, uh they look for leaders to be competent and be able to get results and to to have processes that really make an organization well managed and uh and effective. So those are things that we see that really drive staff engagement in both uh Christian organizations and uh in businesses. Uh it's that inspirational leadership and and uh life-giving work.
SPEAKER_03Al, are you finding with this title Best Christian Workplace, are you finding that there are businesses that are Christian-owned whose leaders are coming to you and saying, we want to be a best Christian workplace, but they are not a Christian-themed organization or for-profit company. Are you finding that that's the case?
SPEAKER_01Um we we work with uh companies that are usually Christian-owned or have some type of uh mo uh Christian motivation, but uh several are for-profit. You know, I I think of uh there's a uh, you know, and these are people that have probably been attracted to us uh because of the Bill Heibel's uh uh Global Leadership Summit discussions, or where they're connected with Christian organizations. They serve Christian organizations even though they're for profit. For example, the Aspen Group up in Chicago uh is an architectural firm. Now they provide uh uh services. construction and architectural services for churches and other Christian organizations uh across the country. Um but yeah they are they are focused on working in churches. So yeah they they uh come out of churches they're clearly great architects and and you know draftspeople and all of those jobs that are required project managers and construction leaders uh you know they're they're they're they get out there and they they build things and and so that's an example of we've used the Christian questions there I believe but most of the time uh we do not include our Christian questions so out of our 58 questions there might be just five that are specifically uh related to Christian uh as we call them Christian questions uh another one of our Christian questions is uh our organization reflects Christ of the world well that that doesn't reflect that's not really relevant for a for-profit uh organization so we don't include those questions uh for these for-profit organizations cape and krauss is another example they're in a large uh accounting firm offices all over the country um we've worked with them they they you know and as a financial services uh accounting firm you know they're all about talent you know so all all of our organizations more and more of them as we're in the knowledge uh uh sector people leave every day you know the assets of the organization basically leave as the people leave because that's what you know that's the brains it's the work of of the people it's not uh it's not equipment and so on and so knowing the health of your key asset your people is uh important C12 is another group and and they're headquartered in San Antonio and they they lead Christian owned business uh uh communities and groups uh around the country as well and we're gonna be down at a conference that they're putting on in San Antonio a little uh later in uh in September uh but uh these are companies that again they uh and C12 uh does our survey they're a for-profit organization and they're encouraging their business owners their Christian business owners to know what the health of their culture is much like you mentioned earlier uh because uh it is a way of honoring Christ uh to know that we are that we are providing a healthy environment so that we can have a flourishing culture and as the as the great places to work or the best companies to work for research shows that uh that it's the the best companies to work for that have uh higher stock returns than the S P 500 when you when you just pull out those best companies to work for they have higher returns over time than those that aren't uh good places to work.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Well yeah that definitely makes a lot of sense uh do you find that some of these companies like for example uh C12 is going through they're taking the survey uh and they're on this journey with you uh and they they would then say to their one of the people at their their round tables uh that you should also get your get this survey done and and get on this path in your own company um but but what if the person says well I don't want to put it out there that on our website or anything like that there were a Christian workplace. Do you find that pushback?
SPEAKER_01We do. And uh initially we weren't sensitive as sensitive to that. But now we uh and and we started to do this for a different reason but we have the we call it the best workplaces institute we just take the word Christian out and on the survey our we have a logo that's best workplace institute logo so uh uh there's really no reference to uh Christian on the survey on our platform you know what an employee would see so we uh we've taken that out we take out our Christian questions that that have uh uh a direct Christian reference to them and that's important uh you know I I I was a director of human resources for a mini conglomerate of sorts early in my career and uh I uh you know we we had uh discrimination suits against us for uh uh based on uh based on race and I've I've stood in front of a council uh it was I thought it was an unfair uh claim I'll I'll say but I I I know what uh the strength of the EOC EEOC and I believe in uh in what the EEOC does and yeah we're not allowed in the in the in the marketplace to discriminate based on religious preferences uh we can't uh uh we can't hire or fire uh based on somebody's just based on their religious preference uh I think that's quite frankly I think that's a a good thing and the Christian business owners that I talk to uh they say that's a great opportunity for us to share and show uh the love of Christ to others so yeah it's uh unless you know and we're uh yeah you have to be very careful about that we are we have been very careful about that and so we don't uh uh have Christian on anything that's uh outward facing to employees. Quite frankly the reason we did that was uh because we also survey missionaries in very sensitive places and we have to be very careful uh that they don't get uh uh identified as Christians in in difficult places in the Middle East and and uh other uh communist uh countries and so on.
SPEAKER_03So well this seems like a perfect way for a Christian business owner to really take an inventory and and you know I talk to as you do a lot of Christian business professionals and and and business leaders and they're trying to understand how does my work really matter to God. Well if you if you were to take this survey of your people you're gonna and you know business people like those measurements and metrics and and so on and so to be able to have that it's not only going to be a measurement of uh predicting things like retention rates and profitability and things like that but your spiritual impact and and as you mentioned before that that engagement that employee engagement meaningful uh life giving work um you know you as a leader you need that too and so to to really get that sense of uh and using that you know you you want to know to what extent because a pastor can measure well how many people are coming to the service uh you know how um how big are the offerings and how many people are volunteering and and things like that to kind of get an idea of of the impact on a spiritual level because if people are coming you know they're hungry like they they're um but but to take a survey like this in your company and where there's really no excuse. I mean you take yeah it's understandable if you don't necessarily want to say I'm a best Christian workplace because that yeah I mean there there could be some issues with um like that I I assume that in and of itself is not illegal is that right no that in and of itself um is not a illegal thing it's it's only where somebody is uh somebody brings a claim against the organization for being uh either discriminated against because uh they weren't hired or because they were terminated you know that type of a situation so being identified as the best Christian workplace in itself is not uh is not illegal it it certainly could be uh something that a disgruntled employee could point towards uh but that would be the the uh the closest thing and you know that's where we've we have uh said well let's just take the word Christian out if that's uh that's the uh issue yeah I think that I think that was a a great move and I mean there there's even pushback on even the idea of a Christian business or a Christian workplace you probably heard this idea that you know you can't call things christian because only people are christians only people are born again which is which is true only people are born again but you know I I go to a Christian church and I'm talking about a very specific place where there's a building and there's programs and and yes I understand that we are the the church the big C if you want to break it down like that is the people of God but the organization I still I still talk we still re make reference to our local Christian church and we're not just referring to the people we're referring to the institution. So therefore you know it follows that you can be a Christian business if that is what the leadership is is dedicated to um but I think this is just a phenomenal resource for business leaders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I appreciate that Darren you know in my 25 years working in the secular environment and you know at various levels and I I led uh 60 or 70 other people uh as the as the leader in the Northwest um I I always believe that Christian principles worked in the marketplace that you know if you if you followed God's laws that you followed God's principles he's he created those principles you know for people he made people he know we know that following those principles are the things that are good for people to flourish in their own lives so I always believe that uh Christian principles worked in the marketplace in business uh and you know yeah maybe I wouldn't do things that would create short-term gain uh because of those Christian principles but I knew that in fact they would always uh they would always create long-term gain uh uh because they weren't you know god God is the creator of people and he knows uh how we need to live with one another to be effective and to flourish as people and those are just good practices for good business as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_03Yeah so so that's we've tried to put that together in the survey again looking at at the elements of of what makes a healthy culture even a flourishing culture and how do we engage our staff our employees because when we have engaged employees and this is the value proposition healthy culture creates engaged employees who will stay around long enough to create economic value for a company that creates satisfied customers which then create not just satisfied customers but loyal long-term customers and when you've got more and more loyal long-term customers that creates uh revenue growth and profitability for any um uh for-profit organization that's the value proposition that that uh healthy culture leads to organizational growth and profitability that's excellent I mean I'm just thinking if I was a if I was a pastor of a local church I mean to make this encourage my business people to go and uh bring you into their companies and then you know as a pastor you know let me see the results of let me see what your people are saying about you Monday through Friday. Yeah and and and not just about you but what are they saying about their experience working in your and your organization and you know and and then you can kind of trade notes as a pastor because you've got the same assessment happening in your own organization and and I just think it's such a wonderful discipleship tool and I'm I'm looking forward to digging deeper into seeing what uh some of your findings were and if maybe my mind was playing tricks on me earlier.
SPEAKER_01I thought I heard you say that secular organizations, you know, those that are not led by born-again Christians tend to have a tend to outperform Christian-led organizations I didn't say that what I what I said was that oftentimes that secular organizations they're more well known as being great places to work than Christian organizations. And uh you know that's one of my burning passions is to turn that perception around.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha. Thank you. I'm glad why I asked the question um because you have got the data and and that's what's happening on your podcast is that you're highlighting these organizations and uh when it comes to discipleship I mean at its at its core it's about like Paul said imitate me as I imitate Christ and so if we don't have the pause uh to uh to emulate then it's gonna be difficult to to truly follow uh Jesus in a in an accurate way so appreciate how you're holding up these leaders and these companies as these great examples for us. Al as we're wrapping it up here if you could just tell us so bcwinstitute.com is the website and um what would be kind of the onboarding uh what what where would they kind of begin this journey if if I'm a Christian business owner and I'm looking to uh go on this journey with you. Yeah I'd encourage uh as you mentioned Aaron uh our website is bcwinstitute.org that will also lead you to our blog which is blog.bcwinstitute.org that will lead you to our podcast those are all free information you can listen to those they they do include for-profit uh leaders as well as uh uh largely their their Christian nonprofit organizations but then that will point you to doing a survey so yes uh measure the health of your staff engagement is the way I uh would encourage you that's step one and uh you can do that right from our website we talk about our flourish model we show you examples of reports I would uh that's that's the way to get started and then we can start the journey uh after we do it's much like a physical Darren uh let's start with a physical and uh determine your level of health and and where your strengths are and where your weaknesses are let's shore up those weaknesses let's build on your strengths and uh work to uh create the kind of a flourishing culture that I believe uh God wants us to have in our in our uh because he wants people to flourish no question yeah beautiful well if you want to go on that journey and and discover what it means to be a flourishing company definitely go to bcwinstitute.org um I believe you can get there from dot com I said dot com earlier either one either one works yep yeah wonderful well Al what would be a parting piece of advice uh you could leave with our listeners today yeah thanks Darren this has been a great conversation and I would say if there is one piece of advice I would have for for Christian leaders leaders of Christian organizations or Christian owned businesses it would be to to really have the courage to look in the mirror and to see what kind of culture they are creating in their organization and to actually ask their employees to complete a confidential survey where they can find out what the health is of their culture.
SPEAKER_01We often are asked you know who do you compete with? I I don't feel like we compete with anybody we compete with the courage of the leader to actually look in the mirror.
SPEAKER_03So my parting advice is uh look in the mirror and see exactly what kind of uh health uh you are creating you're the you're the culture architect of your organization and and it's time to make sure that you're building the kind of culture that you would be proud of that the Lord would be uh uh willing to say at the end of the day well done good and faithful servant well said well and this system you've created certainly sounds like it does a great job of helping to show that accurate reflection of what these organizations actually look like uh bcwinstitute.org is the website Al, thanks again for your time and uh just for being so generous with your expertise and may God continue to bless everything you put your mind to and all of these companies and the people that are working within them and all of the organizations, churches, nonprofits um and and just thank you for the work you're doing.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much Darren appreciate it.
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