Okay, back to the theology business podcastplace credits and marketplace business.com. On today's episode, we'll be discussing Great Commission Companies, and we're joined by Dr. Steve Rundel. Steve is professor of economics at Biel University. His teaching and research interests are focused on the intersection between international economics and world mission. He's a faculty advisor for the International Business Institute and for the Student International Business Association. And also consults and assists. Mission agencies, churches and businesses that are trying to integrate business and missions. He's published two books, Great Commission Companies, The Emerging Role of Business and Missions. Also, Economic Justice in a Flat World, Christian Perspectives on Globalization. And I actually first found out about Steve when I got a hold of his book, Great Commission Companies. And that's going to be the subject of our talk today. So welcome to the Theology of Business podcast, Steve.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Darren. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_01Well, you certainly are the expert on this concept and uh so excited to hear what you're about to share with us. Uh, first of all, what is a Great Commission company and what motivated you to research and develop this concept?
SPEAKER_00Let me start with the second question first. Um, it really starts with my PhD program. I was uh, and this was uh close to 30 years ago now, but um I was studying uh biotechnology partnerships and the economics uh of them. And um uh I had a as a consequence, if you know anything about the drug development process, these, you know, you come up with an idea and it it could take 10 years or more for your idea to finally get approved if it does. Uh, you know, roughly 90 plus percent uh fail. And so I was really interested in the financial organization of these very risky uh projects. And um meanwhile, my wife and I, who are uh committed Christians, were very involved with the the missions activities of our churches, um serving on committees, attending mission conferences, and um going on short-term mission trips. And somewhere along the way, probably at the conferences, I started meeting uh missionaries that were dabbling in business, um, which I thought was interesting, and uh eventually leaders of mission organizations and so forth, it it started to um, you know, there was a not not a huge reputation, but I mean people started to hear about me and my own interest in this this area. Um and that's what I thought was going to be the extent of it. Uh getting a job at a Christian university and and helping these missionaries who were usually in way over their head and and struggling in places where uh you know capitalism really hasn't taken root properly, uh at least the Judeo-Christian uh expression of that. Uh so um, but then I I ran into some some people that really changed my paradigm completely. Um and one of one of those, I have to give credit to Dwight Nordstrom, a very good friend of mine, uh, the the term Great Commission Companies was his, and I I adopted it. Um but the idea behind that are you have lots of Christian business people who are either owner or managing uh companies that are uh being forced to go global, just the changing nature of the global economy nowadays. And um, you know, whether by choice or or not, uh they find themselves often in multiple locations around the world. And you know, they oftentimes they they're good Christians here locally and they they serve their church and they know what it means to to uh uh you know advance the cause of Christ here locally, but but now they find themselves in China or India or someplace like that, and and they have no idea this is a completely different experience for them. Or maybe they do. And the Great Commission companies that we ended up profiling for the book uh were people who very intentionally um started a business with with this purpose, uh this dual purpose of uh creating jobs and and uh wealth for for poor communities, but also uh reflecting Christ in places where there's very little witness for Christ around the world.
SPEAKER_01So if you had to boil it down, and and this is the definition that I got from the book, is that a Great Commission Company is a socially responsible, income-producing business managed by kingdom professionals and created for the specific purpose of glorifying God and promoting the growth and multiplication of local churches in the least evangelized and least developed parts of the world.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And so the, as you define it, the Great Commission Company is. I mean, aren't we just talking about the cross-cultural version of running a business that glorifies God, or is this something more than that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this well, that's how I have come to define business as mission. Uh, the real uh elevator approach is just to say it's the cross-cultural expression of business as ministry, which is something I know your podcast talks about every week. And uh so these are people who who have a solid uh theology of work and theology of business already. And now uh either by accident, because of globalization, or or very intentionally, they they move overseas into a cross-cultural environment and um with the purpose, uh very intentional purpose of impacting those communities for Christ.
SPEAKER_01And I noticed that your book, Great Commission Companies, came out right about the same time as a book that probably many of our audience are familiar with by uh Thomas Friedman about the world is flat. And and so did that provide, I can't remember if that one came out first or or after yours, but either way, globalization was uh a pretty novel concept that that I mean it was difficult to miss uh that this is what what is happening across our world, and that what is the response of mission uh to that in terms of uh sharing the gospel cross-culturally? And and so is that did that kind of help to inspire the timing?
SPEAKER_00Well, in fact, yeah, we had globalization in the subtitle. Uh, the publisher ended up not liking that. They said it sounded too academic, but uh yeah, there's I I'll bet we even quote in a few places in there Thomas Friedman. Uh but um let me tell you a story about someone I met at a church in the mid uh Midwest uh probably 10 or more years ago uh that illustrates what's going on here. And and this wouldn't be a Great Commission company yet, but uh business owner, I won't say what industry, but he was uh he said he was number three or number four in the industry. Uh and he knew that survival depended on getting some lowering his costs and so forth. And so he was uh he had narrowed it down. He'd already done some research and has had narrowed it down to either a setting up operations in Brazil or India. And um so he asked me, this was a conference, and he said, What what should I pick? And I, of course, you know, that's that's not enough information to make an informed decision, but um, I asked him, how has have your church leaders been helping you with with this decision? And he looked at me like like I was a lunatic. Um, why would I ask my church leaders about something like this? But um that's exactly what I think God is doing here is completely upending our mission paradigm. Uh it used to be you sent uh professional missionaries, uh, and you know how that all works, where they raised funding, and and uh many of the business people being faithful Christians are supporting them financially, and that we we saw that as pretty much the extent of of the role of the business person. Uh now, because of global forces, global economic forces, that's turning that whole paradigm upside down. And you're seeing the business people now suddenly out there going, This is a great opportunity. I wish, you know, I knew how to how to leverage that. And many of them do, but um, that's that's what's going on here, what we tried to describe in the book.
SPEAKER_01And you have researched whether or not receiving financial support as uh as a business as mission practitioner overseas, you know, cross-culturally, uh, you found that practitioners who are fully supported by the business tend to outperform sometimes significantly donor-supported business as mission practitioners and are no less fruitful in terms of spiritual impact. And and so it it probably makes, I mean it's probably easy for us to understand why uh those types of businesses that aren't donor-supported would be more profitable because it forces you to make sure that you're actually creating value instead of just getting propped up uh with uh with handouts. Um but I'm curious about the the spiritual impact uh that that you found that the the non-donor supported businesses are are no less fruitful than the donor-supported ones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if um if you spend enough time going to these conferences and so forth, you you start to realize there's two basic groups of people. There's the those missionaries that are still dabbling, in in my view, uh little I mean more often now they do have some business experience and uh and training, but uh and then you also have the the regular business people who just find themselves uh global and having a uh uh an impact that the missionary would just die for um and what's going on there. So I, you know, I sort of sense that in my intuition that uh the those that are not affiliated with missionary sending agencies are often having the bigger impact in and what's going on. And I I'd like to make a case that it's economic incentives. Um and I tried to make that case initially, but I've been challenged on that score, and I I think that's right. It's uh you know, causation correlation doesn't prove causation. So um, yeah, these these people have regular businesses and they're earning regular salaries, and so their businesses are real businesses, what you and I would recognize as a real business. It's not some sort of front just so that I can be here legally in this country. Um and those who do operate the fronts and and uh they have to get donor support because their business isn't a real business, and um people aren't fooled. Uh and so you have a small business, a small sphere of influence, and a small impact as a consequence. So um since I've been sharing these results and and I've I've been working with a colleague, a friend at uh Wheaton College named Paul Lee, um, and he and I are still unpacking uh some of the findings. But uh the one you mentioned about um donor-supported missionaries having no greater of an impact than the the real businesses, um people in the know the that are out there say say, Oh, we knew that. Well, we so no one seems to be surprised by the findings, but it's the first real scientific uh study of of that.
SPEAKER_01And so what what would be an example of a of a Great Commission company? And I'm I'm curious specifically how would you say if somebody was to say, well, how is that company fulfill fulfilling the Great Commission on a daily, weekly basis, uh what are the what are they actually measuring or how are you helping them or what are you looking at as a measurement to determine the extent to which they are fulfilling the Great Commission?
SPEAKER_00Um well, I mean, when I'm not wearing my scientist hat and collecting survey data, I'm just looking at the business and talking to people that have had some uh contact with the people. And and you know, you can you can recognize it when you see it. When people are having an impact for Christ, you people are hearing about Christ often for the first time, and they're often accepting Christ. And but there may be other things. There may be um you see uh humanitarian efforts taking place. I uh one company in particular that's practically famous for uh his compassion for uh physically disabled people and and former beggars and and hiring them and and transforming over time, you know, these people's lives are transformed. And and so it's something you and I can recognize when we see it, and the book doesn't go into anything any any more sophisticated than that. It just tells tells a lot of stories of businesses that uh a couple of them in China, one in Romania, and uh forget where some of the others are, but um uh in terms of the more recent studies I've been doing, uh yeah, that's that's tricky. How do you measure, quantify spiritual impact? And um what we ended up doing was taking the uh have you heard the language of uh multiple bottom lines, right? You have the economic and uh well people in the BAM community would say there's four bottom lines to BAM. Um, and we can debate that uh at some other time. But um we ended up using that, taking, taking that, and uh posting a survey on SurveyMonkey and open it up to any self-described uh BAM practitioner. So we didn't impose a definition on anybody. Uh we we did say you you have to be a business, say that you're uh actually producing a service or or uh product and selling it in the marketplace, but uh you could be a nonprofit and still be doing that. Um and uh for each of the four bottom lines, we asked between about six and eight or nine questions, and some of them were uh quantitative questions, like how many people have you uh uh uh discussed Jesus with, or or how many people are you discipling, how many people have you seen accept Christ? Um to be honest, uh we got a lot of pushback on the spiritual questions. A lot of people didn't like it's like, well, we don't count, you know, and well, I and you know, I understand that, but we were just trying to get some sense, and so of all the four bottom lines that we tried to measure, um, I would say the spiritual one was the most difficult, and I would take it with the most grain of salt. But what what we were able to glean from those imperfect questions um was was basically no difference in the two samples. You have the donor-supported missionaries, um, that's the only bottom line many of them care about. And then you had the real businesses, and you find out that they're um, you know, it's it's hard to say that either side is doing better than the other. So we weren't able to, our prediction was that the missionaries would would score better on that mark, and and we had to reject that. We couldn't uh uh we couldn't uh couldn't reject the null hypothesis for that.
SPEAKER_01So what what have been some of the best practices that that you found uh uh across these great commission companies? You know, it's relatively easy to understand about the that they produce a great product or that they offer a great service, that they're socially responsible, you know, they're not destroying the environment and they're trying to take care of the environment, they're they're they're being good people at work. Um and then you you also rolled in this this idea of that they promote the growth and multiplication of local churches uh in these in these areas. What are maybe some specific examples of these kinds of things?
SPEAKER_00Well, let me just say for that last part, uh it it is a co-authored book. I I co uh co-wrote with someone named uh Tom Stefan, who's a uh uh he was a career missionary and then eventually became a well-noted scholar in the area of church planting strategies and so forth. And and so that was uh some language that he insisted on in terms of the now can you be fulfilling the Great Commission Comp or can you be f fulfilling the Great Commission and and not necessarily seeing churches planted? And and I I'll bet he would argue, and I think I would probably agree that um uh almost the definition of fulfilling the Great Commission is that you see new people uh now recog acknowledging Jesus as their savior and gathering into churches, either existing churches or or new churches. So um yeah, so he he insisted on that that outcome. Uh more recently, uh in in particular this most recent uh study, uh that's one of the possible expressions of the Great Commission, but it is not the only way people uh needed to show. Uh but yeah, so in our book, uh every one of these companies, in some way or another, and it's um in terms of best practices, I would say one common practice I see is that the the business leader is often somewhat disassociated from the discipling and so forth. Um it just gets complicated. You know, what if you have to discipline your employee and they just you just led them to the Lord, and then two weeks later you have to fire them or something like that. And it um so it's just uh people I have talked to, um, many of them have found through experience in many cases that it's best to um have uh an executive team of people that are sort of uh uh, you know, I mean, creating company corporate events or or maybe it's a Bible study in the workplace and so forth and uh whatever. Uh so you often do end up seeing new believers uh joining existing churches or uh uh you know, new churches.
SPEAKER_01Well, even in the way an employee who isn't there they're not doing their job for whatever reason, or they're just not maybe that's what it is. Maybe there's a character issue. You know, certainly maybe there it just wasn't the right fit, they don't have the right skill set. But assuming there was a character issue involved, even the process of firing that person and the way that they are transitioned and that there's follow-up, you don't just kind of drop them like a bad habit. But there is an opportunity for discipleship, uh, even in the midst of that. And this person, this person might be a believer already. Maybe they're a new believer, maybe they're they've been in church all their life. But either way, I think if we look at it as this is a discipleship opportunity, you know, that that is exactly uh what it what it can be. And you know, those opportunities we don't necessarily get, they're not gonna get that in their church. I mean, when was the last time you heard about somebody being excommunicated? You know, because we you know, we just everybody's accepted. There's very, very little accountability, you know, if at all. Um, and and so I mean the business world and these businesses provide that opportunity for uh discipleship. And so you it sounds like the the emphasis though here with Great Commission companies in particular would be on evangelization of new believers. Is that is that right?
SPEAKER_00Uh for for the book, yeah, you're probably right. But remember, these are places where in many cases, um, I mean, there's very few, if any, Christians. Uh these the local people have have often never met a Christian. So just by even uh arriving on the scene, you've almost evangelized to some extent. So it's not like they're they're hiring people and giving them tracks uh to go home with uh along with their HR paperwork, but um you know they it's uh it's almost inevitable if in in many places just being an American they assume you're Christian. So uh yeah, you're you're reflecting Christ, and uh, you know, if if you are reflecting Christ, you're gonna end up drawing people. Uh you're gonna be attractive and people are gonna come to you and and uh hear about Christ too. So yeah, uh I would say yes, that's um yeah, that that's probably an essential part.
SPEAKER_01So if the Great Commission is not necessarily about going to make a profit or even planting churches, but it's to go make disciples, uh there's just that that definition, it seems, would be would be much broader than just because and the fact that you're going into uh you know, say uh um you know 1040 window place where there are almost no Christians, I mean, just by virtue of you being there and you're representing Christ, people are going to want to follow that example, ideally, if he's represented properly. And that's you know, that's what we call disciple making. Right. And and if and so no matter what stage of their journey they're in, the Great Commission applies, right? Because it's about helping people to come become more like Jesus than they were yesterday. And the evangelization part is kind of the just the gateway, um the gateway into that. Do you think that the even in the way that the company conducts itself, that companies can in the way that they're led can result in discipling other companies to help the way that you hold up these examples of Great Commission companies, uh, do you believe that there's even a Great Commission disciple making effect inherent there?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, just think of Chick-fil-A. Everybody has heard of Chick-fil-A, and they you know, most people admire the company for what it uh it does, not only in terms of closing on Sundays, but all the other uh good deeds and and the way it treats its workers and so forth. So um uh yeah, that's what's cool about the idea of Great Commission companies, is that the company itself can be salt and light in its own way. Now you you know, I mean, will a company be Christian and get saved and go to heaven? That doesn't make any sense, but but it can be a beacon of light in a very dark community. Uh and that would distinguish it from the the tent maker who may be a Christian who works for Intel in Malaysia. Um, and they're they might be having a gangbuster impact for Christ too, but you wouldn't call Intel a great commission company. You would just say that's that's a case of a tent maker having an impact. But um yeah, so um I think it's really cool when you have Christians taking a business and having, you know, even the business itself uh reflec yeah, sort of communicating Christ in its own way.
SPEAKER_01So I guess it it really kind of depends on who's who the company's leaders are, right? And what they're yeah, and it and if it's if it's public, that gets a little more difficult because you have shareholders involved. But um it I would assume that most of these Great Commission companies are not probably not going to be public companies, they're probably gonna be privately held companies, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's an open question still on whether you can do it as a publicly traded uh corporation. You know, a lot of young people, especially, they go to business school and that's that's what they learn to do. You take a you grow a company and eventually you take it public. And um, there's been some examples uh you could point to, but uh you know, it doesn't seem to be long-lasting. It seems once you you uh you know have the the uh quarterly earnings to to uh you know the board gets behind all that and and uh uh I think an interesting story is AES, the the president of that company, um saying how uh and he was a believer and he's having a great impact at the business, but uh as soon as earnings started to go flat, um the bit the board you know ousted him. And and so uh yeah, I haven't seen an example of a publicly traded corporation um lasting at least very long as a great commission company.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I think that's why True Cathy told his descendants do not take this company public, you know, because so many of those uh what had been put in place would be would just be dismantled um probably pretty quickly thereafter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01As we're as we're wrapped wrapping it up here, you know, there is there is this tension in the body of Christ over this this issue of to what extent are are we are we to be pursuing spiritual objectives and then financial objectives, and that you know, you got one camp saying that, well, it's it's just enough that you're doing your business in a God-honoring sort of a way, and of course, they have a way of defining what that God-honoring sort of a way is, namely that you are work you're diligent, that you have that Protestant work ethic, you know, that you are you're you're kind to people, that you're you're honest, and so forth, and then the idea of anything God expecting anything else out of us in terms of actually doing it in a way that makes disciples. Um, why do you think there it there is this tension and what can be done uh to bring bring us to more of a middle ground on this issue?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, that's a great question. You know, it at Biola, and I know this is true at probably all other Christian colleges and universities, uh the School of Business or Department of Business uh was sort of the stepchild of the college. It was maybe the golden goose. Um that's how the the uh university uh earns most of its tuition, but uh it's really that's that's not ministry. What we're really interested in is preparing people for ministry, and that happens in the seminaries and so forth. And it's it's taken years, and you know this. You you went to Gordon Conwell and did your doctorate work on this, didn't you?
SPEAKER_01I mean No, I was at I was at Regent and did not do a doctorate, no. Oh just to just uh MA.
SPEAKER_00Where did I get that from? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um maybe you're are maybe you're prophetic, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you should. Um it's um but there's been this battle going on for years, and now the the uh the pendulum has swung now. And and at Biola for sure, I can't speak for other schools, but uh we have in our lobby on the wall, uh emblazed in the tile, uh business as ministry. We make it clear to anybody that comes to the school of business that we are equipping people for ministry. Uh and um so and and so yes, just some I would say e even just doing their work for the glory of God, just be doing it honestly and doing it with their their their whole heart and and so forth pleases God. It's an act of worship. Um and and so um can you do that then and just stop there is what you're asking, right? And call yourself then a great commission company. And and I think even if you are doing your business with your your whole heart, um that's gonna look different. That's gonna attract questions from people. You're gonna end up sharing Jesus with people, uh whether you intended to or not. And yeah, call it unintentional sort of um, you know, uh serendipity and so forth. But it's um I I you know I don't know if you can just do just, you know, quietly sit there in the corner and and do your accounting without people eventually getting to know you and and hearing about Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it it is just it is somewhat disturbing that I mean there is a large part of this movement of you know, faith and work and and you know, whatever you want to call it, marketplace ministry, and every every kind of stream has their own way of defining it, but there are there have not seen such a um downplaying or almost a distaste for evangelism or deliberately going about your work in a way that not just that you represent you know the Imago Day, the image of God because you're doing your work um wholeheartedly, but that you're doing it in such a way that you would want somebody else to then reflect that same image of God, uh, which is what discipleship is. You know, Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Um, I mean, there just seems to be such a resistance uh to uh in a way that I've never I've actually never seen in my lifetime, which which is which is somewhat ironic given the way that God is moving in the in the workplace.
SPEAKER_00You know, I uh I I go to a lot of uh social entrepreneurship conferences, and social entrepreneurship is is a lot like business as mission, except there's there's no Christ in in the middle of it. Uh uh it might be a false God or something else, or no God at all, but it's it's a secular version of BAM. Um and I I have to tell you, I get uncomfortable sometimes. Um now that's where you'll hear the multiple bottom lines. And so what makes uh say Newton New Newman's own, the the salad dressing maker, what makes his his company so honorable is because he also gives a lot of money to charity and and so forth. And so there's that social bottom line. It's it's a classic case of a double bottom line business, and now now they claim three because they've added the environment. And and so what some people in the BAM movement have done is said, well, let's just use that, that sort of describes BAM. Let's just add a fourth bottom line. And I've I've always been pretty uncomfortable with this. And I'll I'll tell you in the in the social entrepreneurship conferences, um, what you find out is Newman's own is honorable because it gives its money away, not because he makes a great product and his company, you know, pays a fair wage and all this sort of thing. And so it's exactly that same argument, only now I can't appeal to scripture and say, wait a minute, uh, I think I think this company on its own. I just saw the movie Lion. Have you seen it by any chance? That that that uh kid who was he grew grew up in India and then uh got separated from his family, and 25 years later he tries to go find his family, and he ended up using Google Earth, and it's a true story. And it I just walked away from that movie just marveling at what a good God that that there were Christians working doing their best job developing Google Earth and made it possible for you know this kid to find his family eventually, and and who knows what other kind of good things have have happened around the world because Google Earth exists, and you could go on and on product by product. I think God is pleased when people are just doing business, and so I'm torn. I I I can feel your own frustration and pain because I I have the same frustration. I have I have sort of adopted the four bottom line just because it's it's already out there and it's if yeah, it's it's somewhat useful, it's a little clunky. You have to check a box. Okay, I just I just um you know gave somebody a day off with pay. Do you is that a you know what which bottom line does does that fit under, you know, and and um it gets kind of silly after, you know, pretty quickly. But um, yeah, so I don't have an answer to your question, but I I I know what you're you're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I know for me, I have it's gotta be real simple. And I think as simple as it gets for me is, you know, what would Jesus do? And what what does Jesus look like in this situation, you know, in this business deal, in this hiring decision, in however I'm conducting myself, and then ultimately if I'm uh blessed to be able to be the you know leader, founder, you know, one of the or or a leader at any level of a company that that I would then be able to shape culture in a way that the culture of my company would then begin to disciple other cultures. And I think that's why the Great Commission is to make disciples of not just individuals, but nations. Yeah. And you really have to go after each level of organization in between there in order to disciple an entire uh an entire nation. And so I mean, I think it's probably simpler than than we even make it out to be. That you know, what what is the character of Jesus? You know, what it and actually praying, you know, what a concept. Like that we could actually hear from God what his what his will is uh for this uh for this situation. And you know, we live like that. We represent Jesus, we're making disciples because Jesus will shine through us and and people are are gonna want that. Doesn't mean you beat them over the head with the Bible. I think that's where probably a lot of the criticism and frustration comes from a lot other camps um in the body of Christ in this movement where you know going to such an uh another extreme where it really is just sort of business for the sake of business or work for work's sake because you know God created work before the fall and so forth, and so and and I I believe all that, but you know, there's just such a a bigger opportunity here, you know, to represent Jesus. Steve, what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our listeners today?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, you know, not too long ago I was in Hong Kong giving a speech on um on business as mission, and uh a lot of people stood up during afterwards in the Q ⁇ A and they they gave an example of their business. Is it would you consider this an example of of BAM? And would you consider and I I must have been asked that a dozen times that night, and I was so uncomfortable. Uh I was squirming so badly up there. I just because I don't want to be the the arbiter of that anyway, and I don't know if it matters. I I what I get excited about is when people obey God, whatever that is, may and maybe it turns out to be a nonprofit or something. And you know, by all means, let me, you know, tell me how I can help. Um and and don't get too caught up in in definitions and so forth. I I think that's sort of an academic thing. That's something academics like to do is argue about definitions. Um I I'm with you. I'm more let's let's keep it simple. Just just follow God's leading and and don't worry about the definition.
SPEAKER_01Well said. And people can certainly get a hold of both of your books at Amazon Great Commission Companies, as well as Economic Justice in a Flat World. Is there another place uh you'd recommend people go and check out more about what you're doing, Steve?
SPEAKER_00Uh boy, Biola. Come on over. Uh yeah, yeah. They can reach me on my uh email address, steve.rundel at biola. Um yeah, I think that's uh there's a conference in in uh Dallas, I think it is, in September, business as mission that you'll get to whoever goes will hear a lot of uh testimonies from real practitioners out there. And so, and I'll be there as well.
SPEAKER_01So wonderful. All right, we'll have the link to um I'll just put the link to your bio on uh biola.edu. So people go and check out more's a wonderful, wonderful school. Of you guys have put a lot of your lectures and so forth on on YouTube, you know, to be a voice out in the culture, those that that might not actually attend Biola, but you know, you can still get a hold of so I mean, just such a wealth of free information and um teaching out there. I recommend everybody go check out. I've watched countless hours uh myself. Um but Steve, thanks for sharing your time today, and uh may God continue to bless the work you're doing to make an impact on students and and uh and and paving the way for other great commission companies.
SPEAKER_00Okay, my pleasure.
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