Today we'll be discussing ethical leadership in the financial industry, and we're joined by Penn Tai. For the past 17 and a half years, Penn has been the CEO and president of Cafe Bank and Cafe General Bangkok, which is the oldest Chinese American bank based in Los Angeles, California, and has more than 1,100 employees and more than 14 billion in assets. And he holds an MBA from Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University, and recently served as a panelist on HBU's banking services forum titled Perspectives on Ethical Leadership. You can go and check that out at Christianityandbusiness.com and see the full interview. And so we asked Penn to come on today to share more of his thoughts and experience with our podcast audience. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Penn.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren, for your nice introduction. There's a minor uh amendment I want to uh clarify. You know, I have been with Cathay Bank 17 and a half years, but I became the CEO and president since uh October last year. So it's not for 17 and a half years that I'm a CEO.
SPEAKER_01Understood. Well, you've been um making a a strong impact there, and um and so you've been but you've been with Cathay Bank for that long, correct?
SPEAKER_02Right, correct, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so you have uh God has prospered you and uh and rewarded the fruits of your uh labor. And I mean you don't get to stay with a company that long and and get all the way up to the I mean a lot of times in the banking industry, right, don't isn't it pretty typical that they hire outside for the CEO?
SPEAKER_02Well, it depends on the situation. I would say most uh organizations uh they would prefer to promote from within if they have the candidates. You know, unless they cannot find appropriate candidates, then they'll go outside. Because there's usually a higher risk uh to bring in outside uh leaders for an organization than uh promoting someone from within that know the organization you know very well.
SPEAKER_01Well, chances are people uh or listeners certainly in Houston, and I used to live in New York City, so I've been to Chinatown many times, and I can remember seeing Cafe Bank there. I mean, it's as you said, it's the oldest Chinese American bank in the United States. So a great long-standing company. Uh so Penn, as we get started here, I'm I'm curious, and I'm sure our listeners are curious, what does a typical day look like in the life of the CEO of such a large bank?
SPEAKER_02Well, I can use today as an example. Uh I woke up around 5 o'clock and went to exercise for half an hour and then take a shower, have breakfast, and then go to work at work before 7, and then I do my devotion, uh, reading Bible, meditation, prayer. I pray particularly for this uh interview. So you know, all glory to God. Uh and then, you know, uh uh with this interview after that, you know, I have meetings and meetings uh for different uh uh departments and different topics, and then I have uh customer lunch. Uh and then after lunch, you know, the meetings continue uh until probably around 6 30. And then I go home, uh enjoy my family meals, go out. Usually I go out to walk with my wife, uh, and then come back and then maybe do some more work before I go to bed. So that's a typical day, right?
SPEAKER_01And uh and you typically go to bed about what time?
SPEAKER_02Around 10 30.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then you're up at and then you're up at five.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01And so obviously, this is uh a multicontinent, multinational business. So with your meetings, are you typically meeting with um with leaders across the world virtually, or are they mostly there at the headquarters in Los Angeles?
SPEAKER_02Well, mostly with the headquarters, but we also have conference calls because we are in the United States. Uh we have 58 branches across the United States. So, you know, we constantly have meeting, conference with uh different uh managers in different areas and also uh sometimes with customers.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Well, we are so grateful that you have taken the time out to empower our listeners here today. Uh and so with this extensive career, you've been through a lot of leadership challenges. What are some of those leadership challenges you've faced during your leadership journey?
SPEAKER_02Well, I would say uh, you know, managing and uh dealing with people is probably the most challenging. You know, for uh other matters, you know, if you have a knowledge or a skill set, you can you know usually handle technical issues, but people are different, right? Everyone is different. So managing people is always the most challenging. And uh, you know, in in I like I like you know the the the book 360 degree leaders written by uh uh John Maxwell. And you know, it you know, there's different stakeholders that you have to deal with, right? You have to you have to try to manage your boss, your peers, and your subordinate. Uh and I would say, you know, as you write up in an organization, uh dealing with uh your direct manager uh is always a challenge, especially when the the your your boss is not that reasonable. So as I mentioned in my article a life of Thanksgiving, you know, in my previous ban, I've come across uh a boss that uh you know is not treating everyone with fairness. You know, he is kind of uh has his own pet personal preference towards a group of uh officer employees that create fiction, you know, conflict within the organization. So how how do you deal with that is is is very challenging.
SPEAKER_01And Penn is referencing an article that he has written and r where he really shares his story that's being published in the latest issue of the uh Christian Business Review Academic Journal. So you can get a hold of that at Christianityandbusiness.com. Uh is there a another specific example of a specific time and place and and group of people or person uh that you could take us to a story to highlight kind of how you walk through one of those leadership challenges?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh well, you know, in managing a remote uh uh uh area, for example, we have branches, right? Offices across the United States, and you know, some of the uh remote area uh managers, uh since you're not managing them day to day, you know, can be a very challenging situation. So I have this uh particular regional manager. Uh you know, he knows how to talk and present himself very well. However, uh his result is not that great. And you know, eventually, you know, uh we try to help him, coach him, and uh uh but you know, the result hasn't improved. So we have to work out a performance improvement plan for this person, for this regional manager. And what ends up is uh you know he orchestra uh uh uh a kind of a couple, right? He he arranged all the lenders, landing man uh lending department managed uh officers to resign at the same stage and go to a competitor. Wow. So so this is kind of a situation that you know you know, as a leader you always have to deal with have to uh deal with, and you know, even though uh we have been treating him, uh that regional manager really nice with uh a lot of encouragement, coaching, but you know, you know, this kind of thing happened and you have to deal with it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow, I mean how did how did you deal with that situation? I mean, that's how many people that's I mean it sounds like a a mutiny, how many people uh did he kind of take with him?
SPEAKER_02Well, there's uh the department is about six people. And uh, you know, he uh kind of uh uh was able to uh convince uh three of the uh uh lenders uh to resign with him on the same day. The fourth one uh resigned on the same day also, and I was on in a vacation and I, you know, find out the situation, I call uh you know the uh fourth person and find out that you know that person didn't know that uh he was following that leader. And in fact, she told me that uh uh she you know really uh has a big concern about this leader for the past few years, but she's so afraid to uh let me know about what happened. Uh didn't come to work on time, leave early without telling the self what's going on. Uh so you know once she finds out that uh he is the one that's also orchestraing everyone to leave at the same time, same date, uh I persuaded her and she decided to stay with us to stabilize our customer base and other employees. So that's I think you know it's really God's helping me to handle the situation so we don't have uh too much of a loss of our customers and business because of the coup.
SPEAKER_01Wow. You know, it there's there's so much opportunity for forgiveness in the business world, isn't there? And and there's opportunity for unforgiveness too, and and it sounds like you really handled that what and kept your composure. I'm sure in the in the heat of that moment it was probably I would think it was quite stressful. Um, but how did you when when you encounter situations like that, how do you how do you approach those situations from a spiritual standpoint?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think the first reaction would be uh to pray because we know that everything is uh in the hand of God. Right? And then you know have a period of uh calmness, you have to uh be quiet, be still and think about the situation and figure out uh what would be the best approach. And usually uh I have many experience and you know, you know, I think the Holy Spirit would guide you to make the proper decision and take the right actions. So then you know the result uh will be uh much better than uh what you're just adding on your own.
SPEAKER_01And it and I'm sure it helps. You mentioned how a typical day is you know, you'll you'll start early in the morning and get to your devotionals as soon as you get into the office. Um could you elaborate more on that kind of daily routine and and just generally how you remain in tune with the Lord's voice throughout each workday?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I truly believe that uh you know you need to start the day right with physically and s and and spiritually. Physically by exercising and spiritually by staying in tune with God. And I think the best uh you know uh approach is really to read God's word and then meditate on it and then pray to God. You know, uh and I always ask God for for for wisdom and uh uh uh strength. Uh and also be uh try to do the right thing, be a blessing to other people. Uh and I believe that God always answered my prayer.
SPEAKER_01And how have what are some other examples of how you've seen God at work uh in your banks?
SPEAKER_02Well, this this is really a blessing. Uh you know, when I look at you know the bank right now, uh and I come up with some statistics which is very amusing. Uh out of uh 13 directors of the bank, six of them are Christians. Wow, really good Christians. And then, you know, in the last few years I witnessed that God has lead many good Christians leaders to the bank. For example, the general counsel for the bank uh is a very devoted Korean American. And the uh human resource director is a very devoted uh Christian, you know, and she's uh African American. And uh there are many, many uh department managers. They they are very good Christians. So I have really have the blessings that you know some of them have promised to pray for me uh frequently, regularly. Uh so I really see God at work at the bank. That you know uh that you know there's a mission for us, you know, for for the for the members of Catavank family, that you know, we are here to provide great service to a customer base and also to uh also to help our all our employees to maximize their potential and then we also believe in giving back to the community. Uh and uh you know, by doing that, uh we continue to see cost pressing. So, you know, in the last two years, Catabank has been rated by Fort Magazine as the best top 20 best bank in America.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02And we have we have experienced three consecutive year consecutive years of record profits uh in the last three years. So I think you know, I always believe in uh being good to do well. And you know, by doing the right thing for God, I believe God will press this bank. And you know, I have experienced it, you know, almost every day.
SPEAKER_01Wow, congratulations on on all of that success. You know, when you mentioned that you said six out of thirteen are Christians.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And and I I would assume that's not a coincidence. You know, there's a certain culture that you've put in place there that I mean, how do you think that that comes about where you just you end up with that many I mean, because across the general population, you know, in a lot of cases the higher people go up in leadership, you know, it's kinda easy to kind of leave God out and and to not and to just kind of go after the success and the corporate ladder. I mean, how how do you think your company is able to attract um Christian leaders?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I I could clarify that you know it's really not my doings. It just happened that we have so many directors that's Christians, and uh many of them has have been have have been with the bank for many years. And uh the uh uh managers and uh senior executives that you know uh join us, uh you know, we we obviously as a public organization in the USA, you know, we cannot discriminate. Sure. Right? So so I believe that all this happened, you know, is because of the work will of God because we cannot ask about you know their religious background when we interview them.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Right. But that's one thing that we always look for uh in uh recruiting people for the bank. Uh we we look for five uh uh personality traits. You know, well one is of course wisdom, intelligence, right? And then the second one is trustworthiness. And the third one is very important, we call it you know benevolent. We we want to bring in people that's good, that has a good heart, that want to, you know, be good to other people. So we feel that that is very important. And then uh we're looking for people with courage, right, to deal with tough situations, and then we're looking for people with good discipline. So by doing that, you know, it just happened that you know it kind of we tend to attract people with good hearts and and many of them are uh Christians.
SPEAKER_01Wow, and and and certainly it uh there are laws around the hiring process and not uh not discriminating, but like you're saying, you know, when you put those values out there and really stand and and make those non-negotiables, uh there's a certain type of person you're gonna attract. And I mean, ideally, if somebody is uh is uh serving the Lord and they are really committed to character development on a personal level, then those are the types of leaders that will come to your company. And and so that's uh that's wonderful. Uh how do you on a on a personal level, how do you represent Jesus to your employees and customers as a CEO of such a large company?
SPEAKER_02Well, I have to do it very carefully. So, you know, uh I I I always believe in uh being a good role model. Right? So you behave quick quite slightly, people will feel that you're different from you know the other people. And you know when the occape occasion comes, then I'll you know uh uh try to share my testimony, you know, what how God has led my life. Uh I don't want to kind of impose the religion on other people, but you know, if people are curious and they want to ask, you know, why I'm different, why you know uh my uh behavior is different from other people, then I can explain to them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's like people can people can talk about the sports game that happened the night before or the TV show the night before. So I mean uh no matter who you are, I mean you can talk about what I mean it's it if if Jesus is important to you, if Jesus is part of your life as as he is every day in your case, you know, when you start out each day uh going into the Bible in prayer, I mean you can't help but talk about him just as um as a matter of course.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. You know, when people say that, hey, how come your bang is doing so well? I say, well, glory to God. It's cost-pressing.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. I'm wondering if if there's another leadership challenge uh that uh a story, maybe uh one that really stands out in your mind that could help our listeners who are maybe going through some um some ethics challenges some in their in their leadership or or any sort of leadership challenge. Is there another story you could share?
SPEAKER_02Well, another level of dealing with people is uh how to deal with peer, right? So so I see that uh you know in in organization and I saw it many times, that whenever someone was promoted, you know, sometimes you know their peer uh will be so resentful and uh some of them will might resign uh because of jealousy. So, you know, I saw that happen in the workplace, you know, quite often. So what I'm you know, I try to do is you know, we try to bring up leaders and tell them and coach them that hey, you know, you really have to be you know supportive of other peers, you know, work with them, help them to uh to to to grow also uh so that when the time comes for your promotion, then all of your peer will be very supportive of you. So this is something that we'd anticipate will happen in the workplace, uh that we have to you know kind of uh uh prepare people for that.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that that sounds like uh and and so you so what what would you say to somebody who is maybe they have kind of a large team and they're trying to kind of head because that jealousy is a very nasty thing and and can when that when that I mean I think a healthy competition is is necessary and healthy, but when it when it becomes jealousy this turns into a lot of gossip and backbiting and and really just undermining the mission of the company, uh how would you encourage people to uh I let's take one example, right?
SPEAKER_02I in my previous organization uh I uh hired someone and then somehow, you know, af after a couple of years, that person was promoted ahead of me. So of course I'm not happy, right? I feel that I you know I'm better than that person. But but uh you know, I kind of uh come down and then pray about that and I approach that person and congratulate him and uh tell him that I'll you know work and support him. And you know, we we maintain relationships and uh you know you know and and you know after one year I was promoted to the same level. So I would say, you know, if at that point I'm so jealous, I'm so unhappy, then I decide to quit, it's it's not gonna help me uh to mature and learn about how to deal with that kind of situation. You know, obviously people got promoted for some reasons, right? And we have to understand that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And when you're working for the Lord, as it says in Colossians 3 23, whatever you do, work out with all of your heart is working for the Lord, not for men. Right. Because it's the Lord Christ you serve, and when you're you're committed to every day walking with Jesus and to honoring him, uh the the jealousy of what somebody else has is just, I mean, Jesus had to help his disciples deal with that too, right? Right. Yeah, he's humanity. Exactly, exactly. You know, one of the things he said when when his disciples were getting upset that these these other guys over here were doing things in uh in the name of God, and he said, Whoever is not against you is for you. And I I I think a lot of times that that that uh that jealousy is kind of a i it we're we begin to imagine people are against us when they're really not. They're really just trying to get ahead uh on on their own, not that they're necessarily out to get us. Well, this has been fascinating and and certainly helpful and inspiring. Uh Penn, what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our listeners? These are these are leaders, these are uh managers and they're in their companies, uh, some entry level, um really uh kind of all ranks, but what would be a parting piece of advice um uh particularly for the the leaders and those aspiring uh to be leaders?
SPEAKER_02I I I would say you know uh that you know we should try to uh cling to God, you know, be close to God, you know, every day of our life. That is the source of our strength and our wisdom. Uh the the there's a Bible word that I like very much. It's the fearing of the God. Uh fearing of God is the beginning of wisdom. Uh so to me that is very important.
SPEAKER_01Wow, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Uh certainly uh great advice from the Proverbs. Uh Penn, thank you for taking the time out of your uh your very full schedule. No, you've got a lot of meetings uh to attend to, and uh and we're encouraged to know and and and inspired to know that you're doing it as you're led by the led by the Holy Spirit. And uh I'm sure that this was beneficial and impactful for our listeners today. We appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and thank you very much for me for my own interview and uh for you to go. Thank you.