Welcome back to the Theology of Business Podcast. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, author of The Marketplace Christian and Marketing Like Jesus. And this is a show that helps Marketplace Christians to partner with God in business to help you make disciples of your co-workers, your company, and your industry. You can give more teachings and interviews like the one you're about to hear at theologyofusiness.com. As I've been discussing the theology of business and speaking with other Christians about this issue, it's become evident to me that some Christians and streams of Christianity assume that they have the full revelation from God about his will for business. And yet there's so many different perspectives. And almost all of these that I'm hearing are emphasizing a key part of what God is doing in the business world. And certainly there's biblical basis for it, but it's easy to miss the other aspects simply because we don't come from a certain theological tradition or because we're just gifted in different ways. So today we're going to have a discussion between two brilliant people in the body of Christ on the subject of business as mission. Some of you have heard this uh acronym BAM. And we're going to dive into this to help you see that perhaps there's more to God's will for business than you may have realized up until this point. And as you're going to hear, this episode has a different format than we normally have. Typically, there's just one guest on, but we're going to have two today. So it's going to be a fun episode. And if you like this format, you want to hear more of it, definitely reach out and let me know. And so the title of today's episode is Business as Mission, a flawed concept. And we're joined by Dr. Scott Quatro and Dr. Michael Figpin. Uh Scott is professor of management and co-chair of the business department at Covenant College, and is also the chair-elect of the Christian Business Faculty Association. He'll officially be the chair of this great organization in October when that baton will be passed. And Michael is Associate Professor of Old Testament and Semitics at Talbot School of Theology, a Biol University. And he's also the executive director of the Evangelical Theological Society. He's got a strong business background and was highly recommended to participate in this discussion by Steve Rundel, who is one of the leading thinkers on the subject of business's mission. And he'll be on the next episode to give a more positive perspective on the merits and best practices of business's mission or BAM and what he calls Great Commission companies. But on this episode, we'll be taking a look at what Scott has pointed out as potentially some flaws in this concept. Scott and Michael, welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_01It's a pleasure. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Darren.
SPEAKER_00Thanks. Happy to be together today.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful. Well, so we're talking about is business's mission a flawed concept? So it's certainly appropriate that we get a definition of the terms we're working with here. So uh Scott, we'll go ahead and start with you. What do you understand to be uh business as mission?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's I think that's a great starting point. And let me even back up just a little bit and say uh I appreciate the introduction and and the word uh brilliant being used right next to my name, and and hopefully hopefully I can resemble that remark. Um and and I know I'll learn some things from this conversation, which is all the better. So my take on BAM uh is is uh arguably um uh is is often pushed on because I argue that BAM can't be interpreted apart from these foundational three things being true about a BAM company. So to me, when I look through the panoply of what's been written and talked about relative to BAM, there's three foundational truths of a BAM company. A BAM company exists to evangelize the nations, a BAM company exists to disciple the nations, and a BAM company exists to develop the underdeveloped economic nations in the world. And I don't think that you can rightly interpret what's been written about BAM without reaching those three foundational uh conclusions. There are other things that uh are espoused as being true of BAM companies, but those have to be true in order for a company to be referred to as a BAM company, in my opinion. A BAM company evangelizes the nations, disciples the nations, and develops the nations.
SPEAKER_02Michael, what is your take on the definition of business as mission?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think actually I'd I'd agree and adopt a lot of what Scott's laid out there as being core to BAM. Um, I would add to that that I think typically BAM is thought of as a for-profit business venture, and that it is designed to, I like the way Eldred puts it, that it's God's transformation of people and nations. Um, and I know some who are doing this not necessarily internationally, but potentially in areas that are underdeveloped within the US, but it does typically have that aspect of economic development alongside um spiritual development as well. So it's sort of a holistic approach through a for-profit business uh to facilitate both spiritual and uh economic flourishing, sort of a holistic approach to flourishing, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Scott, there are there are several different criticisms uh that you have of this concept of businesses, mission as you defined it. The first of those is you have said that BAM is based on a dualistic foundation. What do you mean by that? And then we'll have uh Michael respond to that.
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah. Well, I think it sets up a dualistic way of thinking about um uh business being, uh, for example, to use uh Michael's word holistic, I think it sets up a bit of a dualistic foundation for thinking about what a holistic approach to business means. Um and and the the dualism is is this. Um and and I don't and I argue you can't land in a different place if you really are espousing BAM. Uh BAM companies are doing sacred work, and BAB or business as business companies are doing secular work. And and and therein lies the um the launching point of uh where I start to get real troubled. Um because I would argue that's just simply not true. I I think there are a lot of business as business companies, uh, especially ones where, well, there are God's people working in business as business companies all over the planet, and and I would want them very badly to rightly see their work as sacred work. Um, and the BAM message undermines that thinking.
SPEAKER_02What do you think about that, Michael?
SPEAKER_00Well, I so like 99% of that, amen. Uh, I think we may, I don't know, this may be really short. Uh here's kind of where I am, Scott, and thinking through this is I would place holistic as modifying a different part of the sentence. I don't think BAM, as like Steve and others have talked about it, and as I understand it, is about holistic business. I think it's about holistic development. So that when a BAM entity is being thought of and conceptualized and put into play, it's about that both kinds of development, both business, economic development, societal development is needed, and also spiritual development is needed. So the idea then is that BAM would help drive a holistic development, not a holistic business in terms of I would agree, if we're saying that a business has to have this as its core mission in order to be a God-honoring business, I would say no, I don't think that's true. Um, but so I would place that modifier differently so that it's not a mandate for all businesses, but that it is a particular focus of a band business in order to be more holistic in its development goals, not necessarily in the business side. Does that does that distinction make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a good word, Michael. I think um where my mind then goes, rightly or wrongly, um, and I'm a I'm a big fan of the idea of a business in and of itself as an entity, as a part of God's good creation, if you will, and God's people working in business having holistic impact on God's world. Amen. But I think if we if we if we go too far toward that piece of the conversation, we we lose the the real deeply foundational pieces of the conversation that trouble me, which is uh BAM companies evangelize, disciple, and develop the underdeveloped nations of the world, or or undeveloped, or underdeveloped pockets domestically, if you will, economically underdeveloped pockets in the US. Um and all three of those uh quote-unquote foundational truths of BAM companies, um, each individually and aggregately um sort of scare me, uh, if you will. Uh well, maybe scare is a wrong word, but they trouble me for sure, um, because of the critical role that uh business plays in the world, uh, and and and that business needs to play that role in the world without being beholden to, I would argue, uh, mandates that really are for the organized church, uh, or at least for MNCs or parachurch, or not MNCs, I'm sorry, um uh NGOs, excuse me, uh not MNCs, NGOs, and and uh or parachurch ministries, which have different mandates and and they're uh a part of God's good creation that that are pursuing different mandates that are complementary to what businesses pursue, um, that therein lies um, I think where most of where you and I may be totally right on the same page. I don't know. Um, and you might be as troubled as I am with the idea of a BAM company uh existing at its core to evangelize, disciple, and develop the nations. I don't know the answer to that.
SPEAKER_00Well, that that concept doesn't bother me, but I think um this is interesting uh in talking to you now. I think part of the difference may be I tend to conceptualize this more at the individual than at the entity level. So, you know, I always kind of boil this down on and think, okay, if these principles are going to work, then they have to work at the sole proprietor and at the corporate level. And I probably conceptualize it more as the let's take the sole proprietor. He's under both mandates or she's under both mandates because they are part of the human race, so they're under the cultural mandate. And as a believer, they're also part of the organized church and they are engaged in the great commission work. Amen. Amen, brother. Yeah, so for me, it's it's a question of motive and intent that an individual may say, I want to play both of these things out in the sphere where I spend the majority of my time, which is in this business that I want to form.
SPEAKER_01I hear that.
SPEAKER_00I do so that they're not making the mandates of the church a mandate for business, but they're saying, I want to do both together. And I think because they are complementary and both part of God's design, I think they can coexist well. Not for everyone, not in every business, um, but no two businesses are the same to that extent. They're they're local, they're they're where they are, they have their people, their skills, their relative advantages. So I tend to start there with my thinking. And it sounds like to me, you're coming perhaps from the larger, more complex end. And the question is kind of how do these meet and play out in the middle, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, no, that's a really good word, uh Michael. And and it makes sense given your focus on theology of work, right? And and I love that. Um and yet I would then say in response, but there's a potentially very slippery slope, especially if we're dealing with, let's say you or I are counseling a student, right? Which we do. We we advise and counsel students on uh their studies and and maybe even potential uh career paths. And we might even use the big word, you know, calling, right? Um, and we try to be discerning in doing that, in understanding um the particular unique makeup of a student and their unique giftedness and their affinities and how that all might come together and lead them in part sometimes through us to kind of nudge them toward, yeah, you really should consider a career in uh you know, education, or you really should consider a career in community development, or you really should consider a career in professional evangelism, or you really should consider a career in business. And and I think if we over-emphasize uh seeing business as um uh providing uh having an instrumental uh core to its purpose, to use Van Duzer's uh Van Duzer wrote a great book called uh Why Business Matters to God and What Still Needs to Be Fixed. And he uses an upfront um discussion to say, hey, look, if we think about business, we have to be careful to think about instrumental versus intrinsic purpose for business. And what happens, I think, is if we start to going back to my student analogy, if we start advising and counseling a student down a path toward going in business, because rightly so, they want to, at least in part, be faithful to both the Great Commission and the cultural mandate, but they really feel compelled to the Great Commission piece, they really feel compelled and gifted to evangelize and disciple the nations. I would be hard pressed to say, well, then the right career path for you is business. Because I think then we have we have counseled them to see business as having only an instrumental role to play in the world. The instrumentality being that's a place where a lot of people, maybe even a lot of lost people, because you know, arguably there's a lot of people motivated by greed. And I know that at some level that's hyperbolic, but that's how a lot of people still view business. And boy, I can go there and I can do some good work because I can evangelize a lot of people in business. I'd be thinking, time out. Um, that might be the absolute wrong place for that student to go. And it's also a bad way to counsel them because it counsel them, it counsels them in line with viewing business as having purely instrumental purpose, as opposed to intrinsic purpose, which is the purpose of business in God's world as part of good part of God's good creation, is to prosper creation and to be a vehicle of common grace for the world. God showers his goodness on all people through the pro through the prosperity of business, and uh to provide a place where image-bearers of all different stripes can be unleashed in their image-bearness, at least to some extent. Of course, we know that none of them will be fully unleashed apart from knowing the truth and being reconciled to God. Um, but with that said, you know, you've got a very diverse workplace where there are lots of people that very badly want to be engaged in their work. And I know from a theology of work perspective, you're probably saying amen and amen. And that's really the intrinsic purpose of business. That's why God created it as part of his world, if you will. And so if you over-emphasize the living out the Great Commission through a career in business, to just boil it down, I think it's a slippery slope. I really do.
SPEAKER_02Scott, I'm curious, given that the Great Commission is to go and make disciples, not necessarily to go and make a profit, although uh that certainly would be would be part of it. What is the role of, and Michael? I like how you really boil it down to the lowest common denominator of that sole proprietor. What is that sole proprietor's role in responsibility as it relates to the Great Commission in a business context?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Yeah. Well, you can't say that that sole proprietor can shirk the great commission and say, hey, that has nothing to do with me, because then we're back to my foundational uh problem of dualistic foundation, right? Um, so they they they always take the Great Commission with them wherever they go. But as a sole proprietor, an owner, a business person, I would counsel them to be very careful about how central they see that to their career calling, how central they see that to the purpose of the business that they're trying to establish and profitably grow and sustain. And in fact, I would argue too often, when that's the mindset, you end up with businesses that don't sustain. You end up with um too many startups and not enough uh, you know, not enough uh sustained, long-term profitable businesses. Um again, I think there's just you've got to have a right mindset regarding what your professional calling and giftedness is alongside your calling as one of God's people to love God and love your neighbor. And partly that means always being ready to give a reason for the hope that lies within you with gentleness and with respect, um, making disciples of folks all over the world. That isn't your professional calling, though. I guess is really what it comes down to, to get down to that the foundational problem I have is that's not my professional calling as a business person. My professional calling is to prosper the world through profit making as holistically in as holistically sound a way as I can.
SPEAKER_02And that and that there's one of the other uh criticisms that you pointed out there in your answer. You said that uh business's mission undermines profit. Um, Michael, what are your thoughts on that assertion?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I so I want to separate out in practice, sure, I've seen that happen. Um, I've seen folks who want to do the Christian coffee shop, they do the coffee shop part really poorly, they don't make a profit, they're really not even necessarily competent on the business side. And it is just sort of a shell for an evangelistic piece. And they would, on that end, those practitioners uh really would drive away from profits because they somehow feel like that that sort of taints what they're doing. I don't think that's what any of the folks who are writing in BAM and really sort of advocating for it at a theoretical and a and a research level are saying. And I don't think it's what those of us on this end, kind of coming from the theology and text side, are saying either. Um, I think if you look at at the orientation of creation, where sort of all this comes out of, God designs a creation that's meant to flourish. And I think we could translate that into profit, right? So if we plan something, we're gonna get multiple fold the investment that we make. If it's done well, we're gonna receive that back at the same kind of principles at the spiritual level. So I think the the creation is designed for flourishing, which means to receive that kind of profit, to reinvest it back into the business, the farm, whatever it might be. Um, so I think there is a there's a practical level problem with a lot of the actual ventures that take place and might take up the mantle of BAM that I would want to critique and have them think differently about that. But I think the theoretical level, I don't know anyone who's espousing that there shouldn't be profit and that that's not an important part to keep the business sustainable and to truly be a business as opposed to being a nonprofit.
SPEAKER_02And Scott, you you mentioned go ahead, Scott.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a good word, Michael. I I I guess my short response would see would would be that it almost feels like the BAM enthusiasts um sort of push aside the discussion of profit optimization, profit maximization, profit making as a given. It's like, oh yeah, of course, it's a given. You gotta you gotta have you gotta have profit to be uh sustained as a business. And and of course, uh a BAM has to be profitable. But but I don't think it's quite that simple. I I think if you if you really dig into what BAMs at their foundation are about, I don't think you can land any place other than being concerned about whether profit will truly be um at the center of of what the business pursues.
SPEAKER_00And I would I would not disagree with that. And I would actually say I'm okay with that. That I think many businesses have profit as a part of uh their mission and role. So things that More on the social entrepreneurial side of things. And I'm okay with that because then you, you know, kind of use the slippery slope language. There is a place in which, well, where does the maximization of profits end? Obviously, we're going to hold it back from unethical ways of maximizing profit. All sorts of other ways that we might think about profit might be pulled back every time we give in a charitable endeavor. So I worked in the banking world, right? We did lots of charity drives and things for the local community. To the extent that the business chips in, unless you want to kind of do some sort of ROI on their good nature and the people like them better. But at a technical level, for the shareholders, they drop their profit by giving money away.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so to that extent, that's not maximized profits either. I hear that. So there is a kind of a spectrum here where I think we've got to be somewhere in the middle of a more holistic input of, you know, we're doing more than making profit, we're we're doing something socially for the community as well, not just for the maximization of profits.
SPEAKER_01I hear that. Really good words, Michael. Quick response for a publicly traded company in particular, and even for some private companies, although it gets tougher there because if the owner of the company wants to do what they want to do with their profit, amen and amen. Uh, and and I can't do anything but cheer them on because it's they're so admirable in what they support and give to. Uh, but even for them, and certainly for a publicly traded company, I'm troubled actually by charitable giving by a corporation. I I think it starts to muck up the waters a bit, depending on how far it's taken, it starts to muck up the waters a bit, again, regarding what's the purpose of the business. Um, and and oftentimes it can just be a cloak, and you alluded to this on your own. Yeah, people will like us better, so let's give some money because that builds our brand equity, that build, that builds goodwill in the community, et cetera. Um, and and with too many corporations, uh, I'm fearful that is a big part of the motivation of the heart uh when those decisions are made. Um, so I'd rather that the company just rightly either uh you know distribute the profit in the form of dividends or reinvest it all in the company because that's why the shareholders gave you your money, gave, gave the company their money in the first place.
SPEAKER_02And Scott, you mentioned the uh uh Jeff Van Duzer's uh discussion and his book about intrinsic value of business. And he was actually just interviewed on the previous episode of this this podcast. And uh one of the things that he was saying, and and that he talked about in the book, is that that God's hand in the marketplace is not necessarily equivalent to Adam Smith's invisible hand. And and so you can't equate uh market forces with the sovereign will of God all the time. They're just not always compatible. And and and so maybe the the argument that it Bam undermining prophet, it it it might it might not be uh sufficient because if God has called us to make disciples, and that is you talked about uh how Bam violates God's sovereign intent for his creation. If if God's intent, if the if the Lord's intent is to go and make disciples of all nations, and the Imago Dei is Jesus Himself, he's saying, help the people around you to become like me. I mean, isn't that really what we're put on this earth to do to help uh the the world around us to look more like Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Amen, brother. I I mean, I'm so with you, and and uh the difference again becomes what is my professional calling as a business person? And what is the purpose of the business, what is the corporate calling, if you want to put it that way, of the business that I'm working in. And and when you bring into either my conceptualization of my professional calling or my conceptualization of the corporate calling of the business I work for, when you bring into that um too much uh bam type thinking, I just believe we start to distort and and even potentially undermine what God is doing through us and through business in his world. But at the same time, I mean, brothers, I'm totally with you in the sense that if if we if if if we know someone who's in a burning house, are we just gonna say, yeah, we'll just let them stay in that burning house as it burns down around them? If we've got a colleague or a supplier or a customer that we have the privilege of developing an appropriately personal relationship with alongside our professional relationship, and God nudges us, and doors appear to be open for us to um share the good news and be a vessel through which God reconciles another one of his people to himself. Amen and amen. And that's gonna happen. Um, but those are one-on-one relationship moments, and I would argue they need to be pretty carefully kept away from, at least carefully thought through. Where are the boundaries here? Why am I really here? Why, why did this company hire me? What are they paying me to do? What did the shareholders give their money to this company to do? And and BAM thinking starts to erode, I think, right thinking relative to those types of questions.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think though, to some extent, okay, so I agree with you on one way, and that I think that BAM may not work if I'm working for the large national bank I used to work for, because the shareholders did not have that purpose. That's not why I was hired. I think that's different though than if we're talking about an entrepreneurial, this is my business. And so all of the shareholders are those who knew this is how it was formed and how it would be used. And so they are in and behind this mission. And I was maybe not hired, but maybe I formed this company with a different intent in order to do that. So I think we have to separate out a little bit. Um, uh most of the time when BAM is being talked about, it's not um kind of how I operated at work when I worked for the bank and I was there individually representing Christ as a worker there. Sure. But we're usually talking about at a purpose-driven kind of entrepreneurial event where I'm forming something with this express purpose. It seems to me that those are very different because your questions about the the stockholders, if there are any, are I think would be largely settled because BAM would say, hey, they should all know what this is for and how it's being driven. So they're on board with this in it. And this is why you were hired and what and what we wanted to do. So I think some of those questions of purpose are actually answered by thinking about it in different scenarios as opposed to all through one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a good, a good push, Michael. Uh and and um I hear where you're coming from. And it's a you're right. I mean, if if it's an entrepreneur, uh, you know, Steve Jobs was what because what was gonna do what he wanted to with Apple, and and the world is a bit different now because of that. Um, Blake Mykowski was gonna do what he wanted to do through Tom's shoes, and the world is arguably a bit different. I don't know that it's necessarily better, but it's different because of what Tom Shoes has done. Um, the Southern Champion Trey, uh a fourth generation now family-owned paperboard packaging company, again, that I have the privilege of doing some consultancy work with relative to strategy and people management. Um, the the world is at least slightly different because of the role that Southern Champion Trey has played in it for 90 plus years. It's such an admirable place. But even Southern Champion Trey, I would argue, four generations deep now, um a Christian family that cares very deeply about their faith and worldview and tries to run their company very consistent with that, I would argue is at best like 5% bam. And I think that's a a big part of the reason that they have they are uh surviving and thriving for 90 plus years. Um to put it really simply, if if an entrepreneur came to me and I was part of a venture capital firm, and the entrepreneur made it clear to me that at the core of their motivation for their startup was evangelizing, discipling, and developing the nations, my vote would be that they don't get any of my capital. And that sounds so inconsistent with being one of God's people relative to uh, you know, um the role of God's people in the world relative to the Great Commission. But I would be very concerned about um a distortion of uh this person's professional calling, what it is they really are called and wired and gifted to do, uh, and whether the entity that they're gonna be starting up is gonna generate a profitable return on my invested capital, which is why I would give it to them in the first place. Um, even entrepreneurs have got to raise uh, you know, venture capital in some way, right? Sure.
SPEAKER_02Um and oftentimes that that's being done these days, you know, through uh, you know, shared interest affinity uh investing, you know, to where I'm only going to invest in you if I believe in what you stand for beyond just the return on investment. And so it seems like that, you know, there's more of a market that's coming together to support this type of approach to business of this BAM or whatever you want to call it, approach to business, where there is that, you know, what they would consider to be in, and I know I realize fully that you under that there's an issue with saying that there's something different between the spiritual objective and the financial objective. I mean, because I I think we're all saying here that it's holistic.
SPEAKER_01I think so. I hear that, I do, uh, Darren. But but I would say um also remember though, that even if, and I'm not saying that this is how we should think about it, but even if a startup run by one of God's people, um, let's say, just to use the uh the sort of easy analogy of or example of uh of a new chain of coffee shops, since that seems to be a um a quote unquote sexy place for you know to use your example, Michael, uh, it's you know, hey, a coffee shop is relational, it's part of the community. So uh an entrepreneur starts uh a new chain of of coffee shops and and and they grow to a hundred uh locations, um, and it's all still privately owned. And um even if that company never evangelized one person, or any of the professionals in that company never evangelized one person or discipled one person, or even if that company didn't place one of their shops in a in a part of a city that really needed economic development, but rather went to more developed parts of the cities where things were very developed and there was uh a more potentially profitable return on locating the shops in those locations. Even if all of that was true, that doesn't mean that that company hasn't done sacred work. That doesn't mean that that company hasn't been uh a tremendous vehicle and vessel of God's common grace to the world. Uh people are generating livelihood, customers' needs for coffee. I know I I can't say I need it, but I sure enjoy coffee every day. Um uh customers' needs for a place to hang out and have relationships and conversations and uh suppliers' needs for livelihood. Um, and of course, whoever the investors are, their need to generate profitable return on their capital that they can then in turn do all kinds of good things with, hopefully. Um, but that's up to them because it's their capital. Um and ideally, if they're God's people, they're very generous with it, right? Um, you get my point. If even if a company never evangelizes disciples or develops uh a nation, it's still doing incredibly important work in God's world.
SPEAKER_00But I guess I'd want to ask the question if you flip that, take your exact same company. Yeah, they've got their hundred stores and they did do those things. Have they harmed the business?
SPEAKER_01Say that one more time for me, brother.
SPEAKER_00So let's say that same company, they did have some stores in economically depressed areas. And let's say that they did do evangelism and discipleship as a part of their intention. Sure. Have they harmed the business?
SPEAKER_01That well, probably yes, I would say. In as much as this, I at least it would be a prediction I would make. Those stores would more than likely be underperforming, or the entire chain would be less optimally performing because you're interjecting into the mandate of the business things that really aren't about the intrinsic purpose of business in the world, in my opinion. In my opinion.
SPEAKER_00So so then you would limit, and I'm I'm gonna be intentionally sharp here. So you would limit the intrinsic purpose only to profit.
SPEAKER_01No, no, profit, yeah, no. Um, I would put it this way prospering the world through goods and services that the world benefits in some way from, um, and as holistically as possible, engaging and unleashing image bearers in their work in that uh company, in that company.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so in our scenario of our coffee shops, what portion of that suffers because they do discipleship? So, in your prediction, what portion other than profit potentially suffers because of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, uh, let's say they spend uh 10 to 20 percent of their time in a given workday intentionally evangelizing and discipling others. Um, that's 10 to 20 percent of the time of their workday that arguably was directed toward toward activities that aren't really about the intrinsic purpose of the business. Um, and I know it's it's it sounds yucky, I get it. Um there that they should have a burning in their heart, right, to um to tell uh others around them uh the joy of the gospel. Amen. And and for sure that should be in every believer, and ideally it is by the power of the spirit. Um, but it's not everybody's professional calling, and it's not um the core corporate calling of, I would say, of a company that's pursuing um a right design for what a company should pursue. Uh so at a minimum, I would say you got a 10 10 to 20% somehow incremental impact on the on the probably bottom line performance of the entity, of the company.
SPEAKER_00But see, I guess I would question that in terms of quantifying that, uh, my relationship with my customers, if I'm genuinely engaged with them, is not going to be harmed as long as I'm staffed well for service. My service is not harmed, not shortcutting the coffee. It's still good, it's well made, all that's intrinsically there. I guess I I really struggle to see what the actual impact is, but because I think you and I have a perhaps have a fundamentally different assumption. I don't see scriptures laying out for us a separate business and personal calling.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so if that is not segmented in that way, right, then I'm not sure that we have to drive a wedge about what's intrinsic to the business and intrinsic to the individual, what's intrinsic to the creation mandate and intrinsic to uh the Great Commission, right? I don't think we have to separate them quite in so stark a term, um, but to see them more as if they're complementary, they should be able to exist together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I hear that I do, and and again, I think it's such a good push, Michael. Um, yeah, again, we you and I as God's people, Darren is one of God's people, we are beholden to the Great Commission, uh, rightly so. And and ideally, it's a it's a natural outgrowth of the of the love that's been showered on the grace that's been showered on us by God and the loving relationship we have with Him, we should want to share that good news. Uh, amen. Um, it's it becomes again a matter of how big a piece of that comes into my professional context and what where are the lines of appropriateness and and where are the lines really of tapping into my unique giftedness and professional calling? And and I would argue that if that's where your mind and heart are all the time or a lot of the time, then you probably shouldn't go into business. You should probably go into some type of full-time ministry capacity. You should probably go in, uh, go work for a para church ministry or or or go to seminary and and and and and work toward being called into the into the pastorate, um, and which is awesome. We need people with that calling and that giftedness and that affinity. Um, and we but we also need people that um that's not as much of where their giftedness or their heart and mind are all the time, but they're thinking instead about beating the competition in ways that don't put the competition out of business, but in ways that make the competition better, and uh being competitive and and making profit and um and taking joy and delight in that, um, and not necessarily seeing others in the workplace as their agenda from uh an evangelism standpoint. And too often I think that's another nuance that BAM brings into play. It turns customers and suppliers and maybe even employees, depending on how much employees know about the BAMness of the company, it it makes them their agenda. And and it's it can be very inauthentic. Uh, I might not want to do business if I if I believe that the agenda of the business operator to me as a customer or to me as a supplier is to proselytize me. Um, rightly so, I would say. Um, even if I uh if I'm lost, I desperately need to be proselytized. But that's not why I'm doing business with, for example, with Southern Champion Trade or with whatever the entity might be. I'm doing business so we can have a mutually beneficial exchange that leads to greater prosperity for my company and their company, uh, and for uh ideally then for the world.
SPEAKER_02Michael, I'll let you have the last word here and then we'll wrap it up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess um I see some of this as being issues related to gifting in the church. The same way that not everyone's going to have the same gifts. We have a broad spread of them in the church, we would have the same kind of spread in a BAM business. And in the same way that in a church, people are not projects there either, or that we're really probably not doing evangelism well, but we're having relationships with them. We could carry all those same problems into the BAM business world and have all the same misconceptions about evangelism there. So I think a lot of what we're talking about here really is some core disagreements, perhaps about intrinsic nature of business. But I think we have a lot of commonalities here in terms of the potential of having some relationship that's complementary between the the Great Commission and the cultural mandate. I I think this is a good conversation to continue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you're right, uh Michael. I think there's some foundational truths that we're both standing on where we would both look one another in the eye and say, yeah, right on. Uh work is uh all work, you know, with some obvious exceptions, depending on where you take that work, uh, is sacred and and and means through which people all over the planet image God and God's people have right perception of how they're imaging God through their work. Amen. Um I don't think that, you know, I don't think we'd see eye to eye at all on the interjection of the Great Commission as a core mandate of a business or a business person without me becoming troubled by it. But your point about the giftedness of people in the church, I think that's awesome insight. We need to be able to come alongside people in the church. For example, in the church on our campuses out there at Biola and here at Covenant, where we've got students that are mostly part of the church, right? They're mostly believers. We've got to come alongside them and help them discern their giftedness and how that giftedness can lead them into a professional calling that will that will um take advantage of that God will then you know do awesome things in his world through. And I would argue that's where we can rightly help them think through. Is my calling in business or is my calling in something other than business? And and business isn't where everybody necessarily belongs, and something other than business isn't where everybody belongs.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's a fascinating conversation, gentlemen. We just we definitely want to keep it going. Um, I wish we had more time. I want to be respectful of your time, know that you're uh you're making an impact uh with your students, with the culture. And uh want to encourage our listeners to come and comment on this episode at theologyofbusiness.com. And and if you have a comment specifically for either Scott or Michael, I will make sure that they get notified uh so that they can come and take a look at that comment and uh and hopefully respond back to you. And uh, gentlemen, thank you so much for uh the impact you're making for the perspective uh you've provided on the show today. And uh may God continue to bless uh everything you're doing for his glory in the academic world and uh in the business world and beyond.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for that, Darren. And and Michael, you're a smart dude. This was fun. Thanks for doing this.
SPEAKER_00It was delightful to do this. I hope we can continue the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would enjoy that.
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