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SPEAKER_02Today we'll be discussing the relationship of religion and entrepreneurship, and we're joined by guest Dr. Mitchell Newbert. He's the Chavan Chair of Christian Ethics and Business and Professor of Management at Baylor University. Dr. Newbert's research interests are focused on understanding how leadership teams and change processes affect the performance of people and organizations. And he's the primary investigator on a National Science Foundation grant exploring the relationship between religion and entrepreneurship. Just a fascinating study that I came across and really is the reason I reached out to him to be on the show today. He's published in several journals, including Personnel Psychology, the Journal of Applied Psychology, Leadership Quarterly, Christian Scholars Review, and many more. And he's also the author of two textbooks and teaches in Baylor's undergrad MBA and executive MBA programs, and it's an honor to have him on the show today. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Mitch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, great. Glad to be on uh on the air.
SPEAKER_02Well, this is such a fascinating uh study, and I I got to go through. There's uh an article that really is kind of the gateway into your thinking and research on this, but it's titled Faith and Work, an exploratory study of religious entrepreneurs. And um, and as you told me, it was really kind of the beginning of a broader study. I know you've been on sabbaticals, so you've been digging even deeper into this topic, but why hasn't the link between entrepreneurial behavior and religion been researched before, do you think?
SPEAKER_00Well, it you know, in some ways it it has been researched. Um, there's some kind of early Max Weber talked about uh this as part of like why uh the US or um our economy uh may have shaped uh been how it'd been shaped by religion a little bit, but it really went untested. There was that's that kind of Protestant work ethic idea um that kind of was the basis for this, but we really didn't spend a lot of time in the kind of the mainstream journals studying this. Uh there's a there's a nice meta-analysis, which really is an article that just summarizes a number of studies that points to at least uh 28 articles that have been published in this area, but they um they tend to be in kind of um uh I guess niche journals uh where they're not really being in the they're not in the mainstream of of academia in terms of discussing this. So, yeah, there's definitely room uh for exploring it. It's just something that we wanted to do in the grant and uh decided to ask uh the National Science Foundation if they thought it was interesting too, and they they did. So we uh embarked on our own journey to kind of fill in the gaps and to hopefully publish some articles and books that would kind of address this issue of how they how they relate together.
SPEAKER_02So, what have been some of your findings in this study? Some of the things that have surprised you and would have surprised uh the those who have read this research?
SPEAKER_00Well, initially, uh, you know, we we kind of looked at it from a number of different angles, and each angle kind of gives you a uh a different picture, slightly different a picture of maybe the whole picture. Uh, this original article you mentioned was uh graduate student uh led out on, and she interviewed some folks uh who uh were Christians or folks folks who described themselves as being spiritual. And uh and that that article really talked about how uh part of their motivation was to you know to start a business was the fact that they they had a hard time living out their Christian values or their spiritual values in the workplace, either because uh the organizations they were in uh didn't support those, or it just the demands of the organization and their job didn't allow them to live out values, for example, that were consistent with their faith, like spending time with their family or attending their kids' events. And so one of the things that came out of that study is that um, you know, one of the motivations for some Christians or spiritual people to start uh organizations or start businesses was to kind of be the master of their own schedule and to also be somebody who could start an organization where they could infuse their own values and not have to be limited by or feel any conflict with uh an organization that had different values.
SPEAKER_02And so are there certain religions that predispose somebody to be more entrepreneurially inclined than others?
SPEAKER_00You know, that's uh that's a great question. And uh we haven't studied that one. Actually, the way we proposed this, we were primarily looking at how a Christian faith uh would shape you know entrepreneurial attitudes or even just work attitudes broadly. Um so we we really don't have the data on that, so I'd be speculating, but it I do think that historically uh there have been uh certain faiths, certainly uh faith traditions that have looked down upon uh entrepreneurial endeavors, uh uh perhaps due to the idea of it being associated with wealth uh and and so forth. And even parts of Christendom have had that perspective that it was not a holy pursuit. It was something uh, you know, more selfish uh in its uh uh motivations. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that there probably are some interesting stories across face, some that supported it, some that didn't. But I'd have to stick to kind of what we studied, and that'd be more the Christian tradition.
SPEAKER_02So, how does the Christian faith in particular shape entrepreneurial activity?
SPEAKER_00Well, typically, um, you know, kind of the the story of the kind of the Protestant work ethic was there this idea of that you know, you had you by you had to demonstrate your faith by working hard and being successful, and that would in some ways validate your your faith. But that really that that kind of speculation really wasn't supported a lot in um you know subsequent research or even the limited amount of research that occurred. But there could definitely be some parts of a um a motivation from a you know from a Christian uh to start a uh business or be successful um for other reasons, for just wanting to honor God by being a hard worker or um uh you know wanting to provide for you know their family or their community and starting a business. I think the idea of how your faith comes into it might be the idea of, you know, when you take you're an entrepreneur, you take quite a bit of risk. Um, you know, mostly your money, maybe other people's money as well, but you know, you're taking a risk and you're doing this under a lot of uncertainty. And so I think in some ways Christian faith does come alongside or come to play in the idea of being able to kind of step out in faith if you believe it's a a good pursuit, uh, and being able to do that under certainties. That'd be that'd be one of them.
SPEAKER_02Would you say that that that faith factor is is really one of the keys to this whole study as far as the the degree to which different religions kind of activate that faith in a higher power, that that that really is one of the primary determinants in whether or not a person is going to uh a person with a religious affiliation is going to step out and start a business or take those risks based on that faith factor?
SPEAKER_00Well, I do think, again, I it I think it does uh play a role in in you deciding to step out. Now, the entrepreneurial process is complex, you know, it involves steps such as actually recognizing a viable opportunity, uh, you know, and then uh you know acquiring the resources to actually uh execute on that or seize that opportunity. You know, along the way, faith can help in different ways, certainly. Um uh and one of them being you know, stepping out in uncertainty. Other times it, you know, actually the part of the Protestant work ethic that still holds is that is that part of that had this idea of being able to uh you know work diligently and then um kind of abstain from or you know other pursuits or other desires, kind of having this focused um you know effort on uh something you're trying to accomplish, something you're trying to achieve. And certainly, you know, that that idea of an entrepreneur um having to do that, if if your faith is reinforcing those behaviors of like saving your money and and acting frugally and and working hard, you know, that's gonna help um you not only in the starting maybe of a business, but perhaps even more so in that business becoming successful.
SPEAKER_02So within, and you said that you'd focus primarily on the Christian religion. So within the Christian religion, did did any kind of uh trends emerge as far as from one denomination to another? Uh and and maybe I'm thinking perhaps if if one faith tradition within the Christian religion tends to be more kind of top-down hierarchy versus a congregational uh structure that would foster more kind of um I guess free thinking and or or even thinking about charismatic, where some might say, you know, this is kind of a fly by the seat of your pants type of uh type of an approach, which obviously that's I'm not saying that, but some would some might accuse it of being that way. But and then some are much more traditional, kind of set in their ways. Is does that come into play here when it comes to um being able to activate these uh these entrepreneurs to step out of the box?
SPEAKER_00Well, in one of the studies that came out of this broad project, uh we did identify the fact that not necessarily uh restricted to a denomination, which um, but if you if you talk about like the characteristics of a particular congregation, that those where the leaders um were taking bold action themselves and were taking risks, reasonable risks, um, and were open to new ideas and were seeking um those kinds of changes in their congregation that that that was related to people uh within the congregation uh being more likely to start a business. So you might think, oh, it's all about the theology or what's spoken from the you know, the pulpit, perhaps. And that does have some effect. Uh, we did find in one study when those things are like pro-faith and work integration that does it is related to entrepreneurial activity, but it's also the behaviors uh of the people in the pulpit and the staff in the church. If they're uh, you know, if they're talking about entrepreneurship being a good thing, but then they're uh risk-averse and they don't do anything new, then that's sending kind of mixed signals. So kind of in the most ideal sense for those, and it could be within any congregation, any kind of um denomination, but for those congregations where they're talking about the value of integrating your faith uh into your work, which not all congregations do, frankly. They like they kind of miss that point from Genesis that God's a worker and that God kind of you know commissioned us to work. Uh, but if they if they miss that, um, you know, that's that's kind of an obstacle. But if they're actually talking about that, and on top of that, they're also trying to stretch themselves and take risks to uh benefit the community and their members, then that you know, that combination uh does definitely impact the entrepreneur and uh maybe pushes them uh towards an opportunity they might otherwise not take because they see it modeled and they see it and they hear it talked about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and it is interesting to look at so many of these churches nowadays that are doing the multi-campus approach and and just so aggressively planting churches, and and it really is an entrepreneurial spirit. And I think somebody that is in a church like that, you know, they see that they're a part of it, and they hear the pastor talking about, you know, the new uh initiatives that are happening, the new church planting. You know, you you'll hear about Nehemiah and and rebuilding the walls and and kind of drawing principles from that to encourage people to kind of put their hand to the plow and and start doing the work to help build the church. I mean, that that definitely, in my experience, stimulates that entrepreneurial spirit uh among among churches.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think it is, it's churches, congregations, they're they're sending a message about faith and work, faith and entrepreneurship, um, whether they know it or not. Uh, and and certainly it it is uh a message that's shaped by the stories you tell and the parables that you emphasize and and uh how you treat uh entrepreneurs or business people in your congregation. Um yeah, but it's also definitely um modeled clearly to people and in terms of the way you know how entrepreneurial you know you are being in terms of trying to achieve your mission of you know reaching the the community and neighborhood. And so uh I think you know, churches definitely across our study we found that you know churches or congregations, you know, they they can have a role. They definitely uh if they talk about faith and work, if they hold it in high esteem to integrate your faith and in into work, or or if they encourage entrepreneurship, that that has an impact. Um their members are listening and their members are watching and it makes a difference. And so I do think there's a one of the things that came out of for me is that you know we need to help um pastors understand uh the value of uh integrating faith into work and uh uh and you know help them so they can talk about that. And they're really not usually trained to talk about that. So um, but when they do, it makes a difference.
SPEAKER_02Now, in your article, Faith in Work, an exploratory study of religious entrepreneurs, you pointed out a few questions in this area that are in need of further research. And and I'm wondering if you've done some of that research on this particular question. Is entrepreneurial activity a push or pull factor leading people away from congregations? Have you uh come to any more conclusions about that?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, you know, we we there's one of our studies that you know um was talking about the differences between or just it was comparing uh entrepreneurs with full-time workers. And you might expect that perhaps uh entrepreneurs spend less time in church, and that would make sense given usually those folks you know seem to be working 24-7. Um in that particular study of a thousand you know, people across the US kind of um in different states and in different economic conditions, um, you know, we didn't see that difference actually that I mean entrepreneurs attended church as much as as just a full-time worker. And so um I'm not sure that uh it's pulling them away um you know from congregations. Um but I I think uh you know there are some I think that entrepreneurs are attracted to those those churches that are affirming who they are and affirming uh that they add value, that that entrepreneurship can be a calling. Uh calling isn't reserved for those who enter the pastorate, but but it's something that uh business people, people in education or across the board, people are called in different places. And I I do think that when a congregation talks about those things, it could be a draw for for some of those entrepreneurs to then come more frequently or get more engaged if they feel value and feel like they're part of the community. I'm not sure if that answers your question, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you know, I'm wondering as well to what degree are you seeing overlap between the generational factors and the uh religious factors? Because, you know, I look at my generation, I'm kind of on the tail end of the millennial generation, and and there definitely is a massive amount of entrepreneurial activity and and people just really wanting to kind of bring the world to them instead of kind of kind of stepping out in certain ways and kind of designing the life that they want, which would include let me do church the way I want, let me do my work the way I want. And in many cases, when they look around, they don't they see that that's not available to them. Let me just start a business. Um is there have you seen a lot of overlap between the generational factors and the religious factors in determining entrepreneurial activity?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think that makes a lot of sense. Now, whether I can tell you I've uh I've researched it and I can tell you uh definitively whether it's true or not, uh, I I definitely can't at this point. But I mean it does make a lot of sense, you know, uh as somebody who teaches students and uh is around students a lot. I mean, I I realize that they more than um previous generations or my generation, you know, uh really think a lot about meaning and purpose. Uh and so I I do think that when they encounter organizations, just like that initial study you mentioned, when they encounter an organization that that they don't think is meaningful, that they think has other values than what um they have, then then yeah, I think it it encourages them to start a business, you know, themselves where they can be themselves and they can live out, you know, and they have a meaningful and purposeful job uh that they're gonna be motivated to go to work to, you know, every Monday. So yeah, I think there, I think there's some an interesting maybe, you know, follow-up to what we've done and trying to figure out if this is uh is part cultural, you know, as well as spiritual.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, in some ways, I'm thinking from the religious standpoint, with with so many millennials leaving the church and saying that you know we're we're now unaffiliated uh religiously, it's almost like saying, I'm an entrepreneur, you know, I'm I'm a religious entrepreneur where I'm gonna kind of create, I'm gonna kind of blaze my own trail and kind of pull from this religion and that that religion. Um what what are kind of the next uh the next questions that you're gonna be exploring with this study?
SPEAKER_00Well, we're uh we're you know, we're trying to figure out you know how it actually makes a difference. You know, it's um it's one thing to say that you know um it's maybe even a good thing, or that people are trying to, you know, integrate their faith into their work or into starting businesses, but like we're wondering like what difference it makes. Um, so that's the business perspective, right? What what's the practical, you know, maybe benefit of this? And there's certainly also some drawbacks that we have to be uh um careful of as well. Meaning sometimes uh when you bring your faith into starting a new business. Uh we did have a study, um it's interesting that you know uh that if you actually verbalize that um or put it on your materials, that some people, you know, particularly those people who don't share that faith, they're not going to be as attracted to working there. Uh, and those who do are attracted to working there, but they also resist some ways um um publicized expressions of it, meaning even those who are people of faith uh react negatively and find it less attractive, an organization if it's all over their print materials. So, I mean, I I think um, you know, that's just one example we're trying to get at some of the you know potential negative ones. The positive ones, uh you know, I had a recent study uh in which uh we found that, and this is actually in developing countries, and I um among my microfinanced entrepreneurs, so these are very small businesses in many in most cases, but we found out that those who were higher in was called spiritual capital in the article, um, uh which is really kind of a measure of faith maturity, like how central their faith is and how how much it shapes how they interact with people. That those those uh entrepreneurs that had higher levels of spiritual capital, even after we controlled for financial capital, human capital, like their skills and abilities, um uh psychological capital, even social capital, their network, who they know, and that kind of thing. Um spiritual capital predicted um how innovative they were. Uh, it predicted how many people worked in their organization. Um, it was associated with that, as well as associated with sales. So um, so it's potentially a very good thing when people bring their faith to bear on their decisions about starting a business or even going in the workplace. In this sense, we you know, kind of argue that uh that when you do that you you bring your faith to work as an entrepreneur in this sense that um it could uh it gives you kind of a confidence right that you're not in it your yourself or alone but also there's a confidence that uh other people uh have in you because you're typically more trustworthy particularly in markets these this study was in a market in developing countries where there's not a lot of laws and contracts and that can be fulfilled and so when you're trying to decide who to work with you work with somebody who seems like they are a spiritual person who's gonna keep their word right and and so you there's a actual practical advantage there that people perceive you typically as more trustworthy when you're authentically able to live out your faith. So anyways yeah that's kind of where we're going with it and then we're also exploring some interesting things about like what types of faith belief actually are productive and which ones aren't and uh the prosperity belief that you know that God is just going to give me um financial blessing just because I'm a Christian or because I'm giving you know my you know money to the church um that's uh that's not playing out as is really helping uh much of anything uh in terms of actually getting people to start businesses and having successful businesses. But when somebody does believe that God's um that they're working hard to honor God that that seems to be a more positive belief or has a stronger association with actually productive entrepreneurial behavior. So that's another area going it's like which specific beliefs actually might drive certain types of behavior.
SPEAKER_02And so that should be interesting and challenging given you know even what you said about how people are sometimes uh cobbling together their theologies from a lot of different places it's hard to get a fix on fix on that but we're we're weighing in and trying to explore that what would you say uh when it comes to the the intersection between entrepreneurial activity and religion within the Christian faith in particular if how do you divide up the um I mean obviously as you said especially with unaffiliated or Christians that say I'm non-denominational I mean that's what does that mean um how do you what are the big kind of categories that you that you would place somebody in in as it relates to religion and entrepreneurship I mean you got the Protestant those with that Protestant work ethic you know whereas we're not necessarily when I think about faith and work I'm not necessarily thinking about business's mission where I'm gonna go um use business as like an undercover operation for for the for sharing the gospel but that the work itself is worship the work itself is bringing honor to God and then you have people at a lot of different places on that spectrum are there some categories that have emerged yeah and actually um a friend of mine David Miller who's at Princeton uh did some initial work on this where he reviewed um the different faith at work work faith uh pardon me faith and work uh initiatives over time and and basically said that these initiatives and different ways that people have you know integrated their faith mostly fell along four four lines and that is like your faith impacted your ethics that one's pretty you know obvious another one was your faith um and these all start with the uh kind of enriched your work experience I mean it helped you cope with difficult situations your prayers might have even given you insight into how to act in a situation or gave you strength to endure some challenges um uh a third area is um expression like um people integrate their faith by sharing their faith verbally or putting you know wearing certain things or having certain religious symbols in office and the last one is um is um another e it's coming to me uh I think it's experience and but this had to do mostly with the idea of like calling uh that you view your work as a calling and that your gifts and abilities have um that God has given you have a unique expression in certain types of jobs and that's why God's called you to do it. So the the thing about that is so if you look at those four um you know areas that um that did vary a little bit we did interviews with um folks from uh mainline Protestant religion uh or congregations uh more conservative or evangelical congregations um uh black Protestant uh congregations Catholic um congregations and then actually Korean congregations and um across those four areas the congregations and the people in them aren't like at the same level in in all four areas um you know for example um the idea of expression or kind of which includes kind of an evangelism component you know you'd you'd expect that's higher in evangelical churches and it definitely is uh where you know um for faith expression for somebody who's Catholic it tended to come out in ways that were related to to to ethics and even social justice and so um you know there are there's kind of a framework that we found in our work that fit uh with with David's um kind of four E's or and and it was supported in our interviews and it just depends on which congregation you're in maybe even certain types of jobs you're in which of those manifestations of your faith tend to you tend to I guess use more or manifest more does that make any sense yeah no that I love that breakdown I mean so so is there like a is there like a survey I mean it it kind of reminds me of kind of like a disc assessment where you know my my denomination or my church my local congregation might be maybe my dominant is the enrich approach with a secondary ethics approach as an example or mine might be a dominant experience approach with a secondary express approach is there like a survey or something like that that that is being used to kind of help uh dis kind of um I mean I have some some conjecture about the way as you know some of the things that you just mentioned about the Catholic approach versus a Protestant approach versus a Pentecostal charismatic approach but I would so love to see some definitive research on on those kinds of things is that available well you know there's some research definitely out there where it kind of gets at this um in kind of a indirectly not but uh David Miller and and uh different people he've done he's doing research with including myself meaning we're working on a paper uh as uh you know currently right now that's under review uh that that measures all these and and the idea would be yeah the resulting scale would would have this sense of you know kind of helping helping you kind of identify what's important to you or helping a church identify what's being you know what the which manifestations are are most common in their you know congregation and so yeah there's it's called the uh the tip um which is called the um the integration profile and so yeah we're we're definitely working on that hoping that that will uh you know get published soon and you know david's already worked a little bit in this area but this scale will really help help that a lot um for people to have that self-awareness like you mentioned like a personality scale or something like that this will help kind of give you your profile of where where you're high in and where maybe you're low at and could develop or just maybe even help give insight on what kind of jobs and and uh careers you might be interested in. And that's going to be on uh on an individual level and then maybe you would ask the person what their religious affiliation is and then really start to get some some of that that data as far as how the different religion or different denominations and different religions can be can be characterized.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah absolutely oh great and frankly we've got a little bit of that data uh not with this specific um tip scale but you know um based on uh interviews with folks in these different denominations that I mentioned you know to you previously and we did definitely notice differences and uh that was one of the tasks that uh we got a little traction on uh this this past semester when I was on sabbatical but needs uh quite a bit more work to get it to to be a publishable paper. But yeah we we see differences across um you know Christian denominations or or christian faith traditions and I would expect uh you know this this a tool like this um would help kind of you know really kind of prove that if we if we use it out in that in that kind of research project.
SPEAKER_02No doubt. Well let me know when it comes out so we can get you back on to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Alrighty.
SPEAKER_02Well Mitch is there a parting piece of advice that you could share to kind of help uh wrap this up you know what the kind of course of action you know what you really want to leave people with.
SPEAKER_00Well I you know I'd just say that I I would guess your audience is primarily those folks who who have an interest in this and and I I would just encourage them that this is a kind of a worthwhile pursuit to kind of to wrestle with how your faith um you know impacts you know the work that you're doing and that and that career or vocation you're choosing and that and that this is not a um even though we've kind of gone through a period I think um maybe in the US where this these things have been separate you know that they're not designed to be separate. I I think if we if we if we go back to the scripture uh that you know we're all supposed to be integrating our faith in whatever we do it says in Colossians you know and so uh and trying to honor God in whatever we do and so it's a worthwhile pursuit to kind of wrestle with this and and think about how we can do it.
SPEAKER_02And sometimes it's challenging uh given organizational environments or even you know some uh legal issues we have to think about but but to not give up on it I think um uh I believe personally that we're all um those who follow Christ are ambassadors of Christ and we need ambassadors who are integrating their faith in in all kinds of places uh business included well said and what's a good place for people to give more information about you well probably go to the Baylor website and uh in the business school and management department you can kind of click in there and find some of my um some of the studies there that have been published there's uh there's at least places they can uh you know dig through and find there but uh that might be a start fantastic well I'll have the link to that in the show notes and Mitch thank you so much for being so generous with your time and sharing your expertise and I know you put many hours of of time into this research and may God continue to give you insight and direction and uh just reveal these these important uh discoveries to be able to help people to integrate their faith into their work.
SPEAKER_01Sure my pleasure it's uh I've enjoyed it and uh I'll uh I'll keep on doing the work and hopefully it'll be better for the beneficial others greatly appreciate it if you quickly podcast on my information about this