Welcome back to the Theology of Business podcast. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, author of The Marketplace Christian and Marketing Like Jesus. And this is a show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God in business, to make disciples transform the marketplace and make an eternal impact. In case you've been counting, this is episode number 50 of the Theology of Business podcast. And I don't say this narrowly as often as I should. Thank you for taking the time to listen to these podcast episodes and to read and comment on the articles at Theology of Business. I uh still appreciate the encouraging words many of you have shared with me and with our contributors about how these interviews and teachings uh have been helping you to partner with God in your business. And here's a little secret nobody learns more from these podcast episodes and articles at Theology of Business than I do. And it's just a result of teaching this stuff to my fellow marketplace Christians. And the research just shows that the best way to learn something is to teach it as you're learning it. And as much as I love hearing about how this content is helping individual marketplace Christians, I especially love hearing from those of you who are using this content to help make disciples of those you work with in business and ultimately changing the culture of your company and industry as a result. So going forward from episode 50, where we are today, I've got a challenge for you. And that challenge is this to teach those around you what it means to partner with God in business. And what does it mean to make disciples in the business world? What does the Bible say about business? So I'd encourage you, if you're not doing this already, I know a lot of you who are listening to this podcast, you're already doing this stuff. But get a group of marketplace Christians together. And it doesn't have to be complicated. You can just print off an article from theology of business.com and have a discussion about it. In fact, there's a discussion question at the end of each article specifically for this purpose. I want you to engage with this content and see what God does. And if you decide to take me up on this challenge, reach out to me on social media or through theology of business.com to let me know how you're making disciples in the business world. I'd love to hear about it. On today's episode, we'll be discussing transforming nations through business. And we're joined by Dr. John Mulford. John is the director for the Center for Entrepreneurship at Regent University, and he's also the former dean of the business school at Regent. You actually helped, you were the founder or one of the founders of that business school. Is that right, John?
SPEAKER_01One of the founding faculty members, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_011982.
SPEAKER_0082. 82. That was a good year. I was actually born that year, John. Well, some of our listeners know that a region is where I got my master's in practical theology, and some of the credits toward that degree actually came from the School of Business. And so here we are, episode 50 of the Theology of Business podcasts, and wanted to pay tribute to my alma mater. John has taught economics, statistics, and management science, and he currently teaches electives and international entrepreneurship in the PhD program at Regent. And he has a particular interest in seeing disadvantaged groups advance through entrepreneurial activity. And the proof is in the results here. I mean, his students have gone on to start consulting companies in Asia and Africa, a manufacturing business in Egypt, a specialty coffee company in the US and Latin America. And through his leadership, the Center for Entrepreneurship has set up five business development centers around the world in Uganda, Rwanda, India, South Africa, and Nigeria. And go to RegentOntrepreneur.org and watch some of the videos of what's happening over there. It'll just really get a hold of your heart and uh and really excite you about what God is doing through business around the world. And uh He's gonna share with us what's been happening through these centers. Uh, welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast, John.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much, Darren. Yes, glad to be here.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and uh thanks for we just signed our sixth uh yesterday. Oh, awesome!
SPEAKER_01Burkina Faso.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful, wonderful. Just north of Ivory Coast, for anyone who isn't aware of where that is. Wonderful, that's exciting. What what is it in the capital city or where is it going to be located?
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful.
SPEAKER_01Wagadougou.
SPEAKER_00Wagadougou. I had always wondered how you pronounce that. Oh, wow, that's exciting. So, John, where did your passion for transforming people and nations through business come from? I mean, you have a PhD in a government planning field, but you seem to be convinced that business plays a more central role than government uh in developing a flourishing society.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I guess I would start with my mother's influence when uh she was just always doing projects and volunteer work around where we live to help people. And then I but I was a math type guy, so I became an engineer, went to engineering school, but I changed my engineering program, created my own major called Urban Technology Engineering because I wanted to see how we could help to improve central cities. And I then I went and uh ended up getting a PhD in regional economics, and as I think about it, you know, all of this happened before I met the Lord. And I was learning basically how from very leftist uh perspective, basically that problems were caused by other people and oppressors, and the way to fix them was to take away from people that had a lot and give it to people that didn't have much. And that was really my training. But when I came to the business school and we were teach I was to teach uh biblical perspective on business, I didn't really have a biblical perspective on business because I've been trained at secular universities. So I was learning along with the students in those early days. They were the pioneers and they were always pushing me and challenging me to, hey, where's the biblical perspective on this? And the more I read and thought and studied and prayed, the more I saw that God has created individuals to have responsibility for their own lives. And not only that, but for them to really flourish, they have to be able to exhibit and manifest their own gifts, not just be given something by someone else. So it's really fortunate that I never spent a lot of time actually doing the things I learned about how to do program, government programs to improve economies, regions, and whatnot, because I really had it wrong. But in teaching in the business school, uh for years I I started to really appreciate the role of entrepreneurs in being the engines of an economy. But I was very busy teaching and then being the dean, so I didn't really get to do any of that until 2004 when uh Pat Robertson said, Hey, what do you want to do in the future? Uh I said, Well, I think God wants me to start a center for entrepreneurship. And he said, Okay, it started. You know, start right now. So we started as sort of an academic center uh trying to just figure out what God's plan was for entrepreneurs to improve economies. And we invited some uh probably about 20 people that were training entrepreneurs around the world to share best practices. As we talked, we found out that everyone thought they had a great program and they were graduating people and training entrepreneurs. But when the question came up of how many businesses are actually getting started, most people said, well, you know, it's difficult to start a business in these countries, and really not many businesses are starting. So even though we weren't planning as a center to be the uh the driving force and to actually operate centers, uh I said, well, maybe we ought to try something different where we combine more than just the training, but more of the mentoring, coaching, consulting to help people get these businesses started in difficult places. So no one really wanted to do it, so I thought, well, maybe we should try it. But still didn't really have a way to get it to happen until I met with the International Christian Chamber of Commerce, and they had been invited by the presidents of four African nations to help them with their economies. So we teamed up and I developed the, I and my colleague developed the curriculum and the plan for a business development center. We started in Rwanda, and just saw amazing, amazing results of people who really didn't have much, but they had good education and really sharp people, and just giving them a little help and also just giving them some hope enabled them to create some amazing businesses. And the one thing that really was uh was great to see in our application, we asked people uh, why do you want to be an entrepreneur? Because we didn't really want just people who wanted to make the most money in the world and spend it on themselves. Well, that wasn't a problem at all. Most people said, we want to help our families, we want to help our communities, we want to help our nation. So one of the things that we found in our program is that we have to be careful to tell people you need to have your business successful before you start giving everything away, because they just had a very giving spirit. But we're now seeing lots of lots of impact. And so just seeing the the difference between what can happen through business versus what can happen through just giving to people rather than helping them to develop themselves. It's just been uh it's just been a blessing for me to be able to see that.
SPEAKER_00Wow. What would you say have been you you mentioned the mentorship component. What have been some of those missing components uh that have really held back these communities around the world from being able to develop the and incubate these uh these businesses?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll start with before people are even trying to train business people, there's just a lot of grant money available to help people. And I've seen studies that show that the countries that have received the most grant money and aid money have actually done the worst, and the ones that have received the least have done the best, of the countries that are equally poor to start with. So so giving people money doesn't really work. So now more and more people are understanding that and they're focusing on business, but then the question is how do you really help people to establish the businesses that are going to be the engines for the for the economy? And in my view, that's the small to medium-sized businesses. I'm not saying that the micro businesses are bad. Those are those are the ones that are more self-employment. So if you go into an area that's just abject poverty where nobody has even any jobs, then it's it's useful that people can support themselves through through the self-employment. But what I'm talking about are jobs where someone can build a business that will employ other people and eventually become larger businesses. So in order to see that happen, it takes a lot more than just telling someone what it takes to be an entrepreneur, or it takes more than just having an idea. And one of the things that that I've seen many times is when you tell someone we're going to train you to start businesses, they say, Well, are you going to give us money because that's what we need. And I say to them, that's the last thing you need. If you've never started a business before and we give you money, you won't be able to pay us back because you'll fail in your business. So we'll be unhappy, and you're going to be unhappy because you're going to owe us money. But we we had an example in Ukraine where someone was doing this and people showed up with empty suitcases because they thought at the end of the program they were going to get cash, fill up their suitcases, and go home and start their businesses. So money is not the answer. The answer is you start small and you have an idea. And I tell people, you really need to have three circles intersect. You need to have something you're passionate about, you need to have something you're competent in, and you need to have something that there's a demand for in the economy. So, because if you don't have all three of those, you're not going to have a successful business that you're going to want to pour yourself into. So if you're passionate and you have competence but there's no demand, then you have a hobby. But if you're if there's demand and you're competent, but you have no passion, you'll just you'll just run out of energy and you won't be able to do it. So really want people to focus on what God is calling them to do, realize that they have a purpose in their lives. And even when you're talking to people who who don't proclaim that they're Christians, they still have this sense that they're here for a purpose. And so they really like the idea that I'm going to find a business that meets my purpose. But if you go to countries where there are not many good examples of success, then people are just, they tend to not have much hope. So one of the things that we've done that's really been effective is bring in what we call visiting executives. And these are successful Christians who are who have been successful in business and have a heart to share with other people. So they give testimonies about how they've been successful, not because they're so great, but because God is great. And so people realize, hey, I could do it too, because you know, these are just normal human beings, they're not some superstars. That's one thing. And then they they work one-on-one with the entrepreneurs and really encourage them. Now we had one young guy in his young early 20s who started a company uh making uh sausages. And so he started on with almost nothing, and he all of a sudden, in a very short time, was delivering a thousand kilograms a week of sausage to supermarkets, restaurants, and hotels. And when we had lunch with him to just talk to him about it, he just started crying and he said, You know, I never thought I could do anything. And then these visiting executives who happened to be guys that were Chick-fil-A operators, he said, they believed in me and they told me that I could I could do something. And I so I believed them, and now I'm doing it. And now he's one of the larger uh meat processors in the country and has received investment from other U.S. investors who see that he has a really good business model.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And this is in this was this one of the ones in Rwanda?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we're talking about a place where I mean almost uh everybody is infected by HIV, I mean, just poverty beyond our imagination here in kind of the Western world, but they are overcoming these obstacles. And I mean, that I love how these visiting executives are going over there to provide this mentorship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just been an amazing thing because if you think of Christians, successful businessmen who are Christians in the U.S., and you see how they're being underutilized in their churches. I mean, the churches are saying, well, yeah, you can be a deacon or you can, you know, be an usher, but they want to put their skills to work, you know, that God has gifted them in business. And this is an outlet for them that they just love because they they get to see they they're able to pour themselves into people who are going to use it and and have a tremendous impact from it.
SPEAKER_00So there are now six business development centers around the world. Uh, what what is the model for these? And what do I know it's a license um model where these there are there are schools that are already over there uh that are established that bring in the curriculum and and so forth. Tell us about these business development centers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, you know, we didn't really know where we were going when we started one. We just said we'll do a prototype, and that was Rwanda. And my colleague Jason Benedict and I developed the program and delivered it ourselves because we wanted to make sure that it was being delivered the way God had given it to us. Well, we were going every single month to Rwanda, one or the other of us. So I made 15 trips in the first couple years, and it was tremendously rewarding but also exhausting. So as we would tell people all the great things that were happening, uh, they'd say, Well, hey, can you do that here? Can you do that? And they'd want it want us to do one somewhere else. And I said, Well, we can't, we can barely do one in Rwanda. So we'll help you do one, but no one ever really picked up on it. So we figured, well, we need to make something more concrete. So we developed a licensed package that has a very detailed curriculum that we use. When I say detailed curriculum, it isn't that we have a teacher that's standing up teaching in great detail, but the exercises are very detailed to achieve the uh the results that we're looking for. And so we we have a detailed curriculum, an operating manual, and we tell them how to go out and market the program to bring in the students. And we also are realizing, even though we don't give away the training, I mean we charge for it, or the people who are licensing charge for it. And it's not cheap. I mean, it's about $500 for the program, which is a lot of money in these countries, but it's not enough to really have a robust uh business. So what some of the other sources of revenue are uh renting out shared space, incubating other businesses and charging them, consulting and mentoring fees, those kinds of things. So those it's a it's really a hub of a comprehensive approach to uh incubating and accelerating business growth.
SPEAKER_00And what have been some of the success stories coming out of these uh business development centers? You already shared one about the the sausage maker.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you know, his was so interesting. And the reason I'm mentioning this is because people ask me, well, what businesses do you tell them to start? And I say, I don't tell them to start any business because if I did that, then we would be the ones that would own the business if it was a problem. Not that we would physically own it, but you know, the idea would be ours, and so they'd blame us. So I say, you have to find the business yourself. So this young guy, during the program, his business concept was uh the film business. And I was thinking to myself, there's not even a single movie theater in the entire country. Uh, film business is not a big business in Rwanda right now. But, you know, I just said, okay, go ahead and work on it. Well, then he switched to the sausage business because the government had a competition. If you had a business that had a local uh need, then you could be in this competition and win a prize, which was a $6,000 grant and a $30,000 loan. So he that's what he did and was able to get his business going. But we've had other people who started who were already in business, but they wanted to learn more to make to become more successful and be able to expand their businesses. One guy that I remember is uh a pharmacist. He'd been a successful pharmacist for 10 years and was really a leader. He was the president of the Junior Chamber International in Rwanda. So he came to the class and within two weeks he said, Boy, I wish I'd had this class before because I just had to close a business. I had a warehouse business and it went out of business. And I had to close it because I didn't know these principles. Well, as a result of the course, he started a business bringing in rapid diagnostic test kits for 30 different diseases. And he won the contract for HIV AIDS testing for the whole nation of Rwanda, and he had his card, uh, Rwanda Medical Supplies. So I came back a year later and his card said Africa Medical Supplies, because he was now importing uh tests and equipment and furniture for hospitals all over Africa. Because after his term as the president for Rwanda in Junior Chamber International ended, he became the vice president for Africa. So he was traveling all over the continent, and then in every country he was able to do business as well. So he has a multimillion dollar business going now, but not everybody's like that. But God really brought emerging leaders to us. You know, our heart is to help the disadvantaged, but as Americans, we're not really we can't really plug in that well to a rural village and communicate with people who don't have any education. And they're not the ones we can help. We can help the emerging leaders, though, who can then in turn help them. So we ended up with in our first class of about 40 people, we had several. People that had businesses and were leaders in the country to such an extent that when the government representatives came to welcome the group, afterwards they said to me, Where did you find these people? These are our peers. And I mean, we had the guy who an architect who had designed the genocide memorial in Rwanda, who was well known throughout the country, who came through the class. Another guy who was an engineer and also a software developer. A few months after he graduated, I know I found out that he had become the president of the national energy company for the whole country. So a lot of these people are taking what they learn in the program and either starting and growing a business or working as leaders elsewhere in the country. And one of the things that we do with our program, it's a program that I call plain glass. That is, it we don't talk about the Bible as we're teaching the program, even though it's based on biblical principles. So we were thinking, how are we going to get the Bible into this? Or how are we going to get these godly principles and advance God's kingdom? So one of the things we do is we have a word of the day discussion at the beginning of every uh class. And the words are words that are supposed to represent an entrepreneur. So the ones you would normally think of energetic and courageous and inquisitive and things like that. But then we also put in a lot of the fruit of the spirit. And one of the words that generates the most discussion is humble. Because people, some people would say, How can that be? If we're going to be successful entrepreneurs, we can't be humble. You know, we have to be on top and aggressive. So it generates a very good discussion, especially when you have some Christians in the class who are bringing up the quoting the Bible for you. So it's it's been uh it's really worked amazingly well. And by having the licensees and the and the visiting executives, all believers who have the same vision, we're able to have some transformational impact even on people coming to the class.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, you know, John, you like to use this this term kingdom business uh to describe the types of businesses that you're really aiming to uh to cultivate. Um why do you it's fascinating when I hear there's a lot of different terms that are being used um uh uh uh across the body of Christ to put kind of put a label on the sort of business that God really has in mind uh to start. Um why do you like the term kingdom business?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um it's it's a that's a good question, Darren, because uh it does stir up some some um discussion and uh controversy with some people. I think of it as God's kingdom, you know, where where Jesus talks about the kingdom of heaven on earth looks like and he starts telling you parables that we're that we're called as believers to extend God's kingdom on earth. And so I that's what I just call a business that does that a kingdom business. I don't mean by that that we are like kings or monarchs or you know, dictators commanding things because you know we're we're the kings of this business, but we are the servants, we're God's servants to extend his kingdom. So we're we are stewards. We have a uh what I like to call a hyphenated dominion-stewardship calling on our lives. We are to have dominion. You know, God has created us to develop the earth and all the resources that are in it and develop ourselves and our and our fellow man to a flourishing state. And we're we're to have steward, we're to be stewards over that. We don't own any of it. God owns it all, and so we're stewards for Him in handling what He has put into our hands. So it doesn't have quite as much of a military view as some kingdom thinking might have. It's more of a servant view, but God's kingdom.
SPEAKER_00And it is uh interesting to use the term in other countries. I mean, here in the U.S., we don't know really what a kingdom is, uh unless it's you know something that we've seen in the movies or something like that. Uh but in a lot of these other countries where they actually do have monarchies and so forth, the the kingdom principle is more is more familiar, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, definitely. And uh the thing is, we do more of the talking about kingdom business here in the United States because we don't present the business development center, we don't say we're presenting kingdom business. Uh we say we're presenting entrepreneurship uh in a way that will bless and honor and improve your society. So it's only when we talk to individuals that we might get into a discussion of kingdom business.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So, how can people get involved and learn more about a region's center for entrepreneurship and these business development centers? I'm particularly interested in this visiting executives program that you have going on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we have a couple of ways of becoming involved. And we started with visiting executives, and then we found that some people either didn't want to make the trip or didn't have the time or money, or for whatever reason, they they weren't going to travel, but they wanted to be involved. So we also have what we call a distance consultant role. So people, because one of the things we found is that people go through this 14-week program, and we're hoping that they'll have either already launched their business or launch it pretty soon after, but then life happens, and they don't always accomplish the the goals that they had when they were in the program. So even having an accountability person, a distance person who can just be a coach and say, okay, what was your plan for the last month or last two weeks, and did you accomplish it, and encourage them and pray with them? So a distance consultant doesn't have to necessarily be a business expert. Um they can they can bring a lot to bear just just being an encouraging accountability prayer partner. So those are some of the roles uh from a distance, and we've had people that started at a distance. In fact, one regent graduate started as a distance consultant to one of our Rwandan graduates, and he got so interested in what the person was doing, he was he was taking what he'd learned in the program and starting entrepreneurship clubs in high schools. And he built, he has 5,000 members in his clubs now. So the regent grad went over there to see what was going on after he'd been working with him for a while and became his chairman of his board, his advisor. Actually, the the guy was a nominal Christian, but he led him to a deeper walk with the Lord and and just it's been an amazing, amazing result of that relationship building. So it can either happen by going first and then building the relationship, or even starting as a distance consultant and and then going and connecting even more.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I mean, talk about discipling nations, and and if somebody thinks, well, I need to get on a plane and go, well, that may be, but starting out, I mean, there's you're you've made such a great opportunity uh for those of us in other countries to disciple across our borders through this through this program. So is there an application that somebody would fill out if they want to get involved in that on the website at RegionOntrepreneur.org?
SPEAKER_01RegionOntrepreneur.org, and then you look for the um distance consulting opportunity to get involved. And it's uh, you know, it it can be something that you can do at your own pace. You can make a commitment for a you know, a temporary commitment to see if you like it before you commit for a long term. Uh so there's there are plenty of opportunities and ways of getting involved. And it it's just one of the one of the blessings, I think, is that people want to get involved, but they don't want to, they realize, well, I may not I don't want to make a 20-year commitment, but I if I only put in a few weeks or a few months with somebody, how do I know that it's gonna have a lasting effect? Well, what happens is if you plug in with our program, someone else is picking up where you leave off. So if you're a visiting executive going and spending a week somewhere, which a lot of people do that and give a speech, but it doesn't really have lasting impact. But if you're plugging into a program where these people are going to have discipleship ongoing, then you get to add your part and know that someone else is gonna come along and add something else after that and it's gonna keep building. So you're you're building toward a lasting impact, even though you don't get to spend the whole time yourself.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, regenentrepreneur.org is a place to go and learn more about these programs, visiting executives and uh becoming a distance consultant. There are a lot of other great resources there. Uh, John, as we wrap it up here, what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to share with our listeners today?
SPEAKER_01Uh one thing I would share is if God is putting something on your heart, pursue it. Oftentimes it looks like it's something that you can't, you know, it's beyond what you think you can do, or it's going to take you so far out of your comfort zone that you don't know if you want to do it. But it's so rewarding after you do it. I mean, I had never even gone anywhere outside of the country up until 1998, and it was my son going to Africa that got me to go visit him. And I probably wouldn't would not have at that time painted myself as going and building business development centers all over the place, but God just put that that idea in my mind, and so I pursued it, and it's been the most rewarding thing in my life. So I would say, you know, look for something that's a lot bigger than what you can do on your own, because then you get the excitement of seeing what God does.
SPEAKER_00Great advice, John. Uh, thank you so much for coming on today uh to celebrate our 50th episode, and may God continue to bless everything you're doing through these students at Regent, and then certainly through these entrepreneurs all over the world. And uh thank God for this newest uh business development center, and uh may God just prosper everything you're doing.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much, Darren. Really enjoyed the time with you, and uh I look forward to the 51st and further.
SPEAKER_00Hope you've enjoyed this episode. You can share your feedback and get more information about price centered business, spiritual gifts in the marketplace, and marketing like Jesus at theologyofusiness.com. The Theology of Business Podcast is sponsored by Airlift Marketing. It's a noisy world out there, and at the same time, it's never been easier to reach a highly specific group of people with your message, product, service, and cost. Through website development, social media management, podcast management, pay-per-click advertising campaigns, and branding, Airlift Marketing helps businesses, not profits, and authors to reach their target groups with precision and to get the highest return possible on their investments in marketing. Reach out to us today at airliftmarketing.com to schedule a free 15-minute marketing strategy consultation. Airliftmarketing.com. Thanks for listening and keep partnering with God in your business.