Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast because Barrett Shear, an initiative of the RCW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate their local values into business. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business, and sign up to receive free access to all five issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_00Today we'll be discussing Bible-based branding for businesses, and we're joined by Mark McDonald. Mark is a Bible teacher, speaker, author of Be Known for Something, and communication strategist for Be KnownForSomething.com. Mark, you're doing a great job with branding here. I think we know what you're what you're all about. He's helping uh organizations, uh particularly churches, but businesses as well, uh, to be known for something in particular, deliberate differentiation. He empowers churches to become known for something relevant, uh, which is a communication thread throughout their ministries, websites, and social media. So uh whether you're marketing a church or a business, the principles of marketing don't change. And Mark, I can tell you, as a personal friend of mine, is a master of those principles. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Mark.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you very much. I'm looking forward to talking about it. Uh as you say, I think I probably say be known for something more than any other person in the entire world.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's it's certainly a message that we need to hear. And uh super excited about having you on today. Why don't you, if somebody is listening to this and they're thinking, oh, branding, marketing, you know, they're thinking sleazy salespeople and all these kinds of things come to mind. Why don't you speak to that, that person, that question? Is branding biblical? And what would you say to someone who says branding and marketing is just selfish self-promotion?
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's I mean, it's a great question because um and and I don't even think it's in my bio, but you know, I've been doing this for 32 years. The way that I started uh working in communication in the communication industry is working for a very large uh ad agency in Eastern Canada. I got to work with a lot of uh different um businesses, big businesses, and uh did a lot of political things as well as uh uh handled a lot of the East Coast uh Canada tourism industry, which was um which was just fascinating and it got me outside as well, which is is where I like to be. But I guess that during that time, I just realized how many, how many principles we use in in the ad agency business that the church just hasn't caught on to. And and every time that I would hear a great evangelist speak about you know how we need to go and we need to go and tell, and you know, and and I've heard so many people say that it's not just go and tell, but it's as you're going, tell. And and you know, those principles is just really good communication principles. So how do we, as we are going about our daily lives, how do we tell? How do we actually show that we are Christ's followers? And it was through that time that I started talking to pastors, and and almost every pastor that I talked to gave me that look of, um, I think you're talking about business. I don't think you're talking about us. We don't need marketing. And and I think a lot of people do push back, just as you're you're talking about it, um, you know, because it it feels like, well, does marketing and the church have any right to to dwell alongside of each other? And and really it was through all of that discussion that the idea of be known for something came up because you know, I would talk to a a pastor and I'd say, well, do you have a brand? And they would say, Yes, do you want to see our logo? And they'd pull out their business card, and it's like, okay, well, that's a great logo, but but do you have a brand? Right. And they would say, Well, um, yeah, I think so. I mean, we put this logo on everything, and and the concept of good communications is figuring out, so what is the big takeaway once you've left or before you arrive, what are people saying about you behind your back? And that's you know, we think of that as reputation or perception, but ultimately that's your brand, you know, that that big uh holistic idea of what do you have to offer me? And and the more I talked about it, the more I uh you know, I would pray before going in and talking to a pastor, and and uh it was actually before a church conference that I was doing in New Orleans, that uh you know, I just prayed and I pray as I always do, uh, Lord keep me from saying anything stupid and let me say only words that you want me to have uh to to say. And instantly I thought, oh my goodness, they just want to be known for something. Our churches have to become known for something. And and I actually I I walked into the room and I told the person who was going to be presenting the slides for me, I said, uh just put the first slide up and I'm not going to talk on what I was going to talk on. I want to just talk about so how can we become known for something? And it was from that that um I came back and talked to my uh my uh attorneys, and we got the trademark for be known for something, mainly because the whole concept, it's not about being self-serving, it's how do we become known for something so that the people around us will accept our communication. And if we can do that as believers, it's not about us anymore, it's about Jesus. And that's if we're Christ followers, how do we have a reputation or a perception that we're helping our audience so that they'll they'll actually accept the the thread of Jesus Christ?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I mean, this really there's a progression here from on a personal level, if somebody doesn't know what you as an individual are all about, they're not gonna be able to understand the organization that you represent. And then if somebody doesn't understand what your organization is all about, they're not gonna understand the bigger why, the bigger cause. And in our cases, as Christians, they're not gonna understand what Jesus is all about until they understand they get some, they they can they can identify with some specific aspect of the church. I mean, I was thinking about Jesus and the way that Jesus branded himself. I mean, he would use familiar concepts to help people understand who he is. You know, he would say, I'm the bread of life. Well, any anyone who's a human knows what bread is and knows how much they need it, uh, or you know, the the living water, or that he's the good shepherd, and all of these things Jesus is doing to help people understand what he's all about, and and and what you're saying, and what I absolutely believe as well, is that we have to do this on individual as well as on a on a corporate level, as churches, as as businesses.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's interesting, you know, even going that step further, um, you know, here Jesus is all through his life, and he is saying, I am like this, I am like that, which allows for people to fully understand what he's all about. Um, but you know, everyone always says, well, last words are probably the most important words. As Jesus is nearing his earthly ministry, the end of his earthly ministry, um, you know, he's he's gathered together with all of his disciples. Judas is kind of revealed that he's gonna be the guy that that betrays uh Jesus. So he leaves the room and here here are his disciples and and Jesus together, and and the conversation comes up of, okay, well, here we are, um we're Christ followers, but what does that actually mean? And Jesus changes the conversation and he starts talking about uh the importance of love and that it's a new commandment to love one another. And and then in um you know the the the whole that whole concept in John 13 where he says, I mean, he wanted to say be known for something, but but I'm gonna translate it that way. Uh but but it's like by this, and the love that he was talking about, by this all people will know that you're my disciples if you have love one towards another. So, you know, you want to be known for something? Well, make sure if you're a Christ follower, to be known for love. And, you know, my my book has the forward by um by Dr. Gary Chapman, who wrote the five love languages. And the the cool thing about the synergy that happens between Dr. Chapman and myself is that his book is all about, okay, it's all about love, but everyone doesn't receive love the way that you think you're giving love. And in order for the other person uh to fully feel loved, you have to slightly change the way that you love on that person. And in the same sense, here we are, we're to be known for love. So, yeah, be known for something, yes, be known for love. However, how do people in your community actually receive that love? And it's not in that we have to, you know, say to them, no, no, no, we're loving you. Can't you see we're loving you? No, we have to make sure that if we're communicating love, that we have to communicate it in such a way so that they actually do feel it. And that's where perception and um it becomes reality to those people. We need to be known for something that says to them that we're different and that we actually do love.
SPEAKER_00Wow, it's like the golden rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but then the platinum rule is do unto others as they would have you do unto them, right? And so it's really putting yourself in their perspective and understanding their needs, understanding the way that what their love language is, uh, to use uh Dr. Gary Chapman's um message there to understand what's the right way to love them. I mean, because the way that you receive love is is is not always the same. I I love that perspective as it relates to branding. Thanks for sharing that. So so why why do you tell business and nonprofit leaders to help their organizations be known for something?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's interesting in the communication industry right now, we're going through a major shift. Well, we're finding out um because we have all of this digital communication that's available to us, for years and years we had printed materials that we didn't realize how long somebody actually spent reading. So we would hand out things to people and say, wow, I gave them uh you know a pamphlet that has 12 pages in it, and I'm sure they read every part of it, but we had no idea whether they actually did or not. But now through digital communications, we know how long people are spending on things and how much time is uh is involved in the consumption of that communication. And what we're finding is that people don't have that much time. People don't want to take the time anymore to actually, other than books, and and there's some magazine articles that people will sit down and spend some extra time on. However, for the most part, communication wide wise, people are are trying to protect their time and they they're trying to make decisions as quickly as possible. So if something comes up in their life, you know, they're they have a flat tire, I need to get my tire fixed, so they instantly think who around me can fix my tire, and it's um and they want to make that decision as fast as possible. People don't like doing all of that additional research. So that's why we as a church for the most part, we have um a very limited audience in our communities around us that even know what we do other than church stuff. And it's almost like it's a private club that has, you know, put walls around our churches. And, you know, most of the research is saying it's about a third of our communities have no concept of what's going on in the church, no connection with church. They just think that's for church people and that's not going to be me. So we need to become known for something so that when the quick decision happens in someone's life, that our reputation and and the the big uh thing that we want to be known for pops up in their minds to say, okay, you know what? I probably don't need church, but I certainly need that. And that's that's the the whole concept behind the the branding behind be known for something.
SPEAKER_00And and so speak to the business people here is uh in addition, what does this mean for their their businesses? I mean, I uh in working with authors, uh certainly you were uh worked with your book and and you have a very clear message and you know who it's for. Um but there are a lot of authors that come to me, as you can imagine, where I'll ask them, who is this book for? And they'll say, Well, my book is for everybody. And and I think a lot of business leaders go about things that way where they just if you build it, they will come. But if you don't clarify who is supposed to come, then it just kind of falls on deaf ears.
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure. And and that's probably w one of the biggest criticisms of of any client who has ever come to us, even those people who really truly believe that they've limited who they're targeting. Um, most people aren't limiting enough. And and it all comes down to the fact that if you don't know who you're talking to, you can't talk effectively to them. If you don't know who you're talking to, you can't even try to control the perception of of what you appear in their minds. So, you know, for for church people, um you know, the the churches all say, well, we need to we need to reach everyone, we need to reach the whole community. For business people, oftentimes you get that, oh wow, I've invented this widget, and and it's like, oh my goodness, everyone can use it. And and they get excited and they think about the prospects of, well, if I just sold to everyone in America, there's 300 million people, and it's like all of a sudden they they're starting to run the numbers. And and what we oftentimes want to do as as branding people, my team sits down and we try to say, okay, so let's start small and reach a larger uh percentage of that that small group, and then use those wins to move on. And you know, it's kind of interesting, Darren, because the you know, it's it's the Acts 1.8 principle, you know, be witnesses in Jerusalem, all of Judea and Samaria into the ends of the world. It's like, okay, be witnesses first in Jerusalem of the people you know really well. Then that reputation will allow you to extend it into Judea and Samaria, and then that reputation will take it into the ends of the world. And we need to make sure we start with a small group of people who we have as a platform who who we can truly speak into their lives because we love them and we we know what they need. And then once we get that win, that win-win between you know, your products being sold to this group of people and they love it, and you love that you're making money off of it, then it's a matter of of taking that success into the the greater audience and maybe extend your target audience, but oftentimes it's just extending uh geographically into the same audiences into different regions.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. I mean, somebody may think, well, Jesus told us to you know go and make disciples of all nations and not just some or not just a couple, a handful of people. Well, but when you look at the actual ministry of Jesus, the individual in those years that he spent on earth, he was going after a very tiny demographic in a very in a subset of that demographic, you know, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So it was a specific ethnic group, and then there were the those who were on the fringes of that ethnic group. So that's why he has these uh and so when the woman comes to him to get deliverance for her demon-possessed daughter, he says, I've come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You know, he did give her that miracle, but he still made his point very clear that that I am called to the Jews, and and certainly the ultimate outcome was to reach the entire world uh through his disciples. But you know, there's, you know, to your to your point there, we have to focus, we have to be, it's really a principle of stewardship, right? You know, to be faithful with that audience, with that following, with that message that God has given to us instead of trying to reach everybody.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, exactly. And you know, Christ did die for all. However, we as a local church, we can't reach all. So we we've been placed into a community that that God wants us to you know have a group of believers who influence that community. And yes, after you've influenced that community, you will have that reputation. You'll be known for something that will reach outside of that community. However, um everyone is more effective with the smaller group before they ever reach a larger group. And and that's that's the kind of the pinnacle of how marketing works. It's you know, one person tells another person, and then those two people tell four people, and then it keeps expanding in that in that manner, where a lot of people in businesses and in church, they think, no, no, no, I just need to communicate to everybody. And and what ends up happening is they contribute to noise and no one hears anything.
SPEAKER_00So what you've you've named uh several things, you know, with with targeting and defining your message. What what are some of those practical steps that maybe a leader is listening to this and and they have if if they were to go talk to people in their community and ask, what is your perception, what is this company all about? You may get a whole bunch of different answers. What steps should that business leader take in order to help his or her company be known for something?
SPEAKER_02I think it's really important for everyone who's running a business to know that you have two audiences. Um and and we talk about this with the church, that they have a congregation and then they have the community. And in the same sense, a business person has um has to understand that they have their current set of clientele and then they have the potential clientele that's outside. And and the messages have to be somewhat different, but they need to really focus on one thread, something that um that is a solution or a path to a goal. So I would strongly Urge everybody to figure out so based upon who I currently have as as a uh clientele, what is it that we're offering them and what is the the core perceived need that they have that I'm a solution to, or what are their main goals that I'm a path to their goals? And and then take a look at all of because there'll be lots. If you talk to them all, you know, we we suggest sitting down and having focus groups where you just start chatting with them. What is what are the things that you're waking up in the morning and and it's really bothering you? What are the main concerns in your life? What are your main problems, pains? And then shift it and start saying about what are the um you know the the big goals that you have in your life and start talking on the positive side. Then start talking. So how how are we helping you? How does our product help? And you'll know your product a whole lot better than they will. And it'll be neat to hear them how they interpret what your product does to actually offer a solution. And if you can, if you can get that, um you'll list several of them, then start looking externally to say, so what is it in my greater community, in you know, the people who don't know about us yet, what are what are the perceived needs in in that greater uh community so that you can start communicating on a solution level? Because people will listen to a solution where people get lost when you just start talking about features in a in a product. And I think that that's where a lot of people go wrong. In instead of talking about you know the the core solution that that their your product has, you you want to tell everybody everything, but and and we don't buy that way. I mean how many digital things you have, uh even your phone probably that has so many more features than you ever know, but you have that core solution of how it how you use it. So you need to you need to talk and communicate and reduce your um your your communications down into that one core, and again, it's what we call the thread. What is that one core message that is the solution that you want to offer and and have everything revolve around it because that one thing you'll be known for will rise above and and be different and sound different and come up above the noise, as long as the thing that you're trying to be known for is something that's unique and simple.
SPEAKER_00Well said. Well, for our listeners, Mark is bringing if you've ever said to yourself, you know, you're a business person in your church, and you're wondering why your church isn't adopting more of these principles that Mark is talking about that have you seen in companies like Apple and Coca-Cola, and they've just done these so many of these things very well. If you're wondering, you know, how do I get my church to bring in some of these principles so that we can get our message out so that we can introduce people to Jesus in a way that's relevant to their lives? You know, Mark is a person that you need to introduce to your pastor. And and so, Mark, tell us about your book, Be Known for Something, and also how you're helping churches and businesses.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. I, you know, this book is really taking my 30 plus years of communications and just really saying, so what is it? What is the the practical step-by-step action that we need to take? It is written towards the pastor and it's written towards church communicator. Um, however, for for those people who are listening that don't fall into that, you know, and that you're a concerned ministry leader or you're a concerned person in your congregation that you've you've looked around and your church is becoming um less relevant in your community. A lot of times it's because your church is in in decline or stagnation. It just means that you have to start to figure out, okay, maybe we've been saying too much. Maybe we need to really concentrate on on one thing, and and and that's what good branding is all about. And and the whole concept of be known for something in this book, it it kind of walks you through why do we need to be known for something? How do we control that reputation? What should we be known for based upon the community that's around us? And then how do we lock that message down into a communication strategy? And and the the whole last component of the book is so practically, how do we make sure that all of our messages aren't equal? Because that just becomes noise. How do we make sure that some of our communications rise above the other noise? And and then how do we actually create, you know, a communications calendar and the strategy of making sure that you have a digital hub where your website, social media, and email all work together. So all of that's at the back of the book. And and ultimately, you could probably sit down and and team read this book, whether it's with a a group of deacons or trustees or a ministry group. I would love for every pastor to walk through with his his ministry staff. In fact, when when I wrote the book, I really wanted to have at the end of every chapter some decisive questions that it's like, okay, you've just read this, you've probably nodded all the way through in agreement. Now make the decision for your church or your organization. Um, here are the answers to that. And and I would challenge everybody who reads through it to answer those questions before you ever move on to the next chapter. Because everything builds on each other. Um and and we're we're finding that there's a lot of churches that are team reading it, and they're getting a lot out of it because it it forces you to actually um reconnect with your your community because a lot of the churches have actually lost that connection.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, be knownbook.com is the website, right? For to get the book. That's right. And and then uh and then be knownforsomething.com, is that the bless place for people to go and uh and check out what you're doing and maybe uh you know find out how they can get you involved with their with their church, their business?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Uh be known for something walks through be known for something.com walks through the our process, and uh it's again it's it's um directed entirely at at pastors. However, um we also work with um plenty of other businesses that are owned by Christians or have known about us through their the church path. Um and I'd I'd love to sit and talk with anybody who would like to talk to me.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and your wisdom and expertise and passion for the church and passion for uh those of us in the marketplace that are uh really working to make an impact uh for the kingdom. May God continue to bless uh everything you're doing with uh your with be known for something, your family, your business, and uh appreciate your time today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business at ChristianityBusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.