Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast with host Darren Shear, an initiative of the R.G. W. Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. This is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about the HBU Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all five issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01Today we'll be discussing what did businesses look like in biblical times and what does this mean for us today. And we're joined by Dave Cale. Dave is an extremely accomplished salesman and sales trainer. In his first career as a salesperson, Dave was the number one salesperson in the nation for two different companies, two distinct selling situations. Since 1988, in his second career as a sales authority, he's written 12 books. Is it more now or is it 12?
SPEAKER_02This one is number 13.
SPEAKER_01Okay, number 13. Number 13. And uh these books have been translated into at least eight languages and are available in at least 20 countries and presented over a thousand times in 47 states and 11 countries. And he's trained tens of thousands of salespeople and uh has worked contractually with over 459 companies. And in the midst of this, he's made some important discoveries about what the Bible says about business that we're gonna discuss today. And he's presented many of these discoveries and revelations in his excellent book that I've been going through. Uh, we're gonna be discussing this book today. The title of it is The Good Book on Business. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Dave.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren. I'm really excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's great to have you on. So there are many terms used to identify what we mean when we're referring to businesses that bring glory to God. You know, we've heard terms like Christian business and Christ-centered businesses, kingdom businesses, values-based businesses. And you decided on the term biblical business. And having gone through your book, I know you're very thoughtful about your choice of words. So uh why did you decide on this particular uh term?
SPEAKER_02Well, because uh because there are uh lots of pictures of businesses uh in the old testament as as well as the new. And there is a there's a consistent theme, consistent set of practices and principles that are uh that are spread throughout the Bible. So it's not just Christian, although that's you know that's today's expression, but uh biblical businesses uh came into existence, I believe, uh, when in the first words that God spoke to Adam. And and that we see that we see a pattern established there and precedence that we just see throughout the entire Bible. So biblical business is uh is you know it's a little bit more um descriptive, I think, than kingdom business, although you can certainly use that in Christian business. And you know, I I use those words as well, but you know, my preference would be biblical business for that reason.
SPEAKER_01And having read a lot of books in this uh particular field, uh it is uh this this is somewhat unique. Uh you oftentimes you talk about business as in fact you talked about how the biblical model is not business as mission, but but what was the uh what what was your answer to that?
SPEAKER_02Uh not BAM, which is business as mission, but BIM, which is business is ministry.
SPEAKER_01Fascinating. And and so and you're so not just not just looking at uh how business can be a tool uh to do something, but that but it but it actually is a conduit. It is the context in which God operates in such a large part of our lives. And so you define biblical business as biblical business is an organization of people, often but not always, centered around a set of people related by blood who work together to accomplish a specific God-given task within the greater purpose of applying creativity and organization to the creation. A biblical business begins from mankind's perspective with the motivation for financial security and advantage. Um, you want to unpack that and and kind of how you arrived at that definition, Dave?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's uh it's not like there's uh there's a Ten Commandments for business people in the Bible, but uh so there's very few directions, although there are some to business people. What there are is examples of biblical businesses in operation. And so we have to we have to look at those and kind of infer patterns and and precedents from them. And that's and that's what I did. So uh probably probably uh the fundamental understanding in that definition comes from the biblical household. And uh so so a household, we see that word used uh in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and and so on, different Greek and Hebrew words uh to be defined as that. But but uh our our general uh expectation is a household is uh another word for family. And that's that's wrong. I mean that's absolutely wrong. And uh the reason it's wrong is because the Bible portrays a household not as a family, but as a larger unit. And probably uh probably uh the best indication of that uh comes from a just a little passage in Genesis that we do, you know, we just we we just skim over, and nobody even recognizes it, but but it's huge in its impact. And this is and this is where um you know Abraham and Lot are together, and Lot is captured and carried off by the by the bad king. And Abraham decides he's gonna go uh rescue Lot. And the passage says, so Abraham gathered 318 trained men who had been born in his household and went after Lot. And you know, if you if you're reading that, you don't think anything of it, but just stop a minute. Stop. Wait a minute. 318 trained men who had been born in his household. Okay, how big a how big was Abraham's family at this point? Well, he didn't have one. I mean, he was married to Sarah, but that's all no children. He was childless, and yet he had 318 trained men who had been born in his household. Wow, how big was his household?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not to mention the women. It just says the men, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, 318 trained men, that's it. That's exactly right. So how many women, how many untrained men, how many younger, how many older, how many parents, how many grandparents? Uh it's I mean, easily his household numbered in the thousands, and yet he had no family. So and then there's there's other passages as well that that just kind of build this whole concept of a household is not a family, it's a business. It's an economic entity designed for first for the economic security and advancement of the people in it, but then we see that God uses this uh this thing, uh, this what I call biblical business for his own purposes in lots of different ways.
SPEAKER_01So now did in in researching this, uh, because you make a very convincing case in the book, uh, did you do you did a word study of household throughout the book? What is that do you happen to remember off the top of your head the Hebrew word?
SPEAKER_02You know, I don't I I don't remember the Hebrew word. I know the Greek word is oikos, right, which has a connotation of economics and and so on. And honestly, I I have forgotten the Hebrew word. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01So that so that Hebrew word, whatever it is, it is the same word that is running throughout when household is used? Yes. Wow. It's fascinating. Yeah. So why have we moved away from this concept of household that is so clear, well, maybe not so clear uh to many to many of us, uh, that household is more than just the nuclear family. And you you quoted, I don't remember who you quoted in the book, but he said that the concept of nuclear family is as old as the nuclear bomb.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Meaning it's not very old at all, uh, because prior to that, uh, you know, go especially going back into ancient times, there were so many more people. And maybe it's the fact that we have so many automated technologies and things like that. And we just if we get we hire people to do very, very specific. We have such a division of labor now to where we know who to call, what website to go to, what delivery service. And and so we don't need to know those people, we don't need to have a relationship with them. We just need we're more maybe we're more transactional. You know, why do you think we've moved away from this concept of a household where it would encompass a business unit where you're truly doing life together?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I think there's I think there's um pressures coming from uh two different sources. One, of course, is our modern world, you know, and uh and all the technology and things like that that you that you just mentioned. And and that certainly puts pressure on on the this whole concept of a household as an entity, you know. And and the other, and the other one, frankly, is what I call the institutional church system, which which uh puts forth the idea that uh true ministry is only done under the uh the purveyor of uh of uh religion, you know, the uh the established religion. And so uh uh business cannot be a ministry because after all, that's uh separated for the professionals in the institutional churches. And so we so we have we have both we have pressures both from uh you know from the worldly perspective as well as from the established religion perspective to that uh put pressure on it.
SPEAKER_01Interesting, interesting. Well, it uh I mean we uh at here at Houston Baptist University, we've had quite a few of our speakers are very, very successful business owners. They've got family businesses that have been around for decades. And uh one case recently we had a speaker come. Their title company has been around since the late 1800s, started down here in Galveston. And so it's been it's been fascinating to just learn from these business leaders who have built these companies over time into these massive. In fact, now uh Dave, I don't know if you you've heard about this, but there are actual degrees that you can get in family business management. Um, because the the issues of succession planning and all those kinds of things are such um uh are such big issues that these business leaders need to navigate, particularly when you have family dynamics and and maybe part of it too is that we have such this dualism where you have your family life over here, because we don't want nepotism, right? And so you need to keep your family stuff out of your business stuff, and we've really we've really segregated these things. You think that's part of it as well?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is, and it's unfortunate because I mean there's a very clear biblical example. Uh again, in the biblical businesses, as as you trace them through, you find a a totally different approach to this issue of work and life balance. And you know, every and particularly if you're a small business person, you honestly uh live in a world of guilt because you could really spend 24 hours a day in the business. And of course, uh uh you have this sense that every hour I'm in the business, I'm not with my family, and and you just can't win, you know. So so there is this uh this real sense of guilt and this issue that's that's really kind of developed uh in in our society of work-life balance. Interesting, the the Bible, the biblical business has a response to that, and it's not balance between work and family, and it's and it's not allocating time to either. In the biblical business, the family comes into the business. So you don't separate your family from your business, you include your family in your business. And you know, when you begin to think about that, that's such I mean, of course, it uh of course that's God's response, because a household is is uh is the fundamental unit of society, I believe, in the Bible. So uh uh of course you would bring your family into the work that God's given you to do, and when they become a part of it, they become a part of something larger. It provides uh a focus, a conversation, uh, it provides an opportunity for the young people to develop and learn responsibility and you know a lot of those life lessons they have to learn. So that so the response is so the Bible does not know about separating business and family. It doesn't know that. It what it knows is you bring the family into the business and make them a part of the business. That's the biblical approach.
SPEAKER_01A couple of interviews ago, I don't know if you got a chance to hear, but there's an interview uh that I did with PJ Jonas, and they have a goat milk or actually a goat milk soap company, and they're making all sorts of products out of goat milk, but uh they have I I want to say eight children, and every one of the children works in the business. And and so, for example, when they're uh when they're learning their cursive, they are writing the children are writing thank you notes to the and you'll as a sales guy, you'll love this, you know, they're writing thank you notes, uh handwritten in cursive that they're practicing uh to those customers to thank them for purchasing the products, you know, and they're hiring employees, and so the children are getting supervisory uh experience, um, they're just being able to work as part of a team and a business. I mean, how much more do you learn in terms of the edge an educational system? And the implications of this biblical concept of household uh and business has tremendous implications for uh for child rearing, for education. We have children that are uh ages one and three, and and so this what you're teaching here is very exciting for us as we think about uh really running our uh our household and considering that a business would not be something that we need to push out of our home, push out of our family, but that we can use it and and that God has designed it this way, and and that we would be able to uh be a blessing, not just to our quote-unquote nuclear family, but to those who would come work inside the company, to our customers, to our clients. Uh so this is a Yeah, what a great example.
SPEAKER_02What a great example, Darren. And and that's that's exactly, I mean, that's that's perfect. That's exactly what we're talking about here. Your example of the kids writing thank you notes. Exactly. So give them some responsibilities in the business. They feel they're a part of it, they're they they learn those life skills, and you know, that's the way God intended it. So great example. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for sharing this.
SPEAKER_01You pointed out so many of them in the book. Um, what are some of the other ones that you pointed out?
SPEAKER_02Uh biblical examples of uh households or or or what?
SPEAKER_01Of household as a as a business. I mean, just more kind of cases in point of of how the concept of household in the Bible was not just a nuclear family, but included a business. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, so you have the example of Abraham, which is really, you know, really a big example, but that but there's others. Let me just uh share with you some. Here's uh Genesis 31, 41. And uh this is uh uh Jacob and talking about talking to Laban, you know, his father-in-law, and he said this it was like this for 20 years. I was in your household, I worked for you 14 years for your two daughters and six years for your flocks, and you changed my wages 10 times. So uh Jacob worked in the household of his father-in-law and was paid. As a matter of fact, he's complaining, you change my wages, you know. So so so households have employees. Here's an example. Um they included slaves, not just family, but employees and slaves. Here's and again, uh here's here's an example from Genesis 17. For the generations to come, every male among you who is eight years old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner. So in the household are those who are born and also purchased. Now, you know, I'm not gonna debate the value of slavery, but the fact is that there were slaves and they were accounted for as part of the household. So we have household having having uh employees, we have household having slaves. Um we understand that households could grow into huge entities, and again, uh the example of Abraham probably had thousands of people in his household. Uh one could be a member of one household and have his own. And again, here's uh Jacob uh talking to uh Laban again, and he says And I just want to point out certainly that this is not uh justification for slavery.
SPEAKER_01No, of course not. You're just saying this this it is what it is, like this is how they ran things, and you know, you really have to kind of chew the meat, spit out the bones, and that they there were there were a lot of different factors in play here, and that uh slavery was a part of it, is not at all that it was God's design. Right, right, it's it it just is, and so when you're when you're wrestling with how to bring this into the present, uh, you know, there's there's certain principles that need uh the the really what you're trying to communicate here and what you are communicating is is that the household is more than just the blood relatives uh or the nuclear family. Yeah, it it encompasses the the business as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And and again, the best case in point is Abraham, who had this huge household and no family, you know?
SPEAKER_01Right. So and so and then you and then you talked in the in the New Testament about these incredible conversion experiences that happen with Lydia, for example, who was you know a seller of she was you know, she was in the textile industry, and and and it said that when she got saved, and you pointed this out in the book, that all her household got saved. Same with Cornelius, same with Crispus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's exactly right. There's this pattern. Yeah, and the and the pattern, and and and this this I think is interesting for a couple of reasons. Number one, there is this pattern established that um when Christ was presented to the head of the household, and he or she made a commitment, he or she and the entire household followed that that commitment. We have we have four examples of that. The whole business was converted at one time. So I so I I I take a couple things from that. Number one, uh, I just I've got to believe that it wasn't coincidence that this was maybe part of the strategy of Paul and and uh Peter is to uh find households and preach to the household and convert everyone at one time. I've got to believe that. The other thing is that um this is indicative of a characteristic of of uh biblical businesses, and the characteristic is that there is an intense relationship between the owner of the business and the people who work in that organization. How else would you explain the fact that Lydia is converted and her whole household is baptized? Cornelius is converted and his whole household follows him. The Philippian jailer is converted and the whole household. There had to be, there had to be this intense Relationship between the members of the household and the owner, they they would have to have such respect for the head of the household that when that person made a decision as important as to follow Christ or not, they said, If you do, I'm with you. Wow. What a relationship there that must have been for that phenomena to take place, not once, not twice, not three, four times in the in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's really going to take entrepreneurs to bring this, bring this back. Uh again, in a way that is, there are certain aspects of what you see in the ways that you see people operating in biblical times. Obviously, it was not part of God's design, but it had crept into the culture. But we we do need to uh see uh clearly what God's will is for our businesses today. But but to to try to do that within a structure where you're not in charge is very difficult. Um but to start a business maybe as a side hustle, you know, or whatever it is, and then be able to build that uh to where now your family can be a part of that, to where now members of your community can be a part of that. And you know, now that you know we have clients uh as as I know you do as well that are all over the world. And and so, you know, how big is your household? You know, there's a lot of people that have virtual assistants over in, you know, for example, like the Philippines.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and to begin to view them as your household, how much better would you treat them if you if you viewed them that way rather than as just sort of a hireling uh that you just kind of um I think it's that transactional mindset that keeps us trapped into this kind of compartmentalization where we have our business life over here and our church life over here and our family life over here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I couldn't uh I couldn't agree with you more, dear. If we would take on and and mimic some of the uh practices that we see in the Bible in biblical in in uh biblical businesses, if we would mimic those and try with discipline and intentionality to put them into practice in our businesses, uh I I have I have this theory that if we could multiply the number of biblical businesses by a factor of ten, we'd change the world. I mean, honestly, we'd change families, we'd change the economy, we'd change politics, we'd change society. If we could multiply the number of biblical businesses by ten, just imagine, just imagine the kind of relationships among the employees and the and the owner, imagine the integrity. I mean, we would we would literally change the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Can you give us, I know you have a lot of examples of this. Uh, I mean, you interviewed uh quite a few business leaders in the book uh for the book, but of a what you would consider to be a modern biblical business, uh what what are some of the elements of that in in real life?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so here's a great example, and this is a good example because the person who is the the head of this business is not the owner of the business. Kind of interesting. So for those of you who are out there saying, well, you know, I I I don't own it, listen, there's a place for you to apply this. So so uh one of them is uh is a fellow by the name of Glenn. I'm not gonna mention his last name, he's in the book, but he's he runs a manufacturing company. And he and and it in uh the his great example of the care that he extends to the employees, he's probably got, I think, 80 to 100 employees. One of the things that Glenn does is when he comes to work in the morning, he walks through the entire plant, he greets everyone, and he asks them if there's anything he can pray for them. And you know, as most people say no, but but occasionally somebody's got something, and and he'll ask, can he pray right then? He'll pray for them right then on the spot. And and so this has developed over the years to where people now come into him, regardless of their uh religious affiliation or not, and they say, Glenn, will you pray for me for this or that the other thing? And uh, and that you know that's an expression of taking this discipline, Christian discipline, we all understand the need for prayer and to pray always, and and applying it in a business sense. Another another one of the people I I uh uh profiled, uh Duncan, who's has got also got a manufacturing company, this one's in Canada, has three by five cards that he keeps on every single employee. And he and he prays for them on the cards, writes down uh writes down, and he prays for a certain number of them every day. So he's got like 80 employees, prays for 10 or 15 every day, through the cards, makes his notes, and just continually prays for each of those, each of his employees. Now that's the kind of thing that we're talking about here with the biblical business. Man, if we could get people doing that, Christian business owners understanding they they are a shepherd of the people in their organization and start extending. Again, man, we we could we could change the world. Honestly. That's right. That's right. We could. So there's a couple examples. I mean, I can go on and on with examples. I don't know how how much time you want me to go.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I love that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think people definitely need to go uh pick up this book. And you know, Dave, as you were talking, I felt like the Lord was saying that the Lord has given us this ministry of reconciliation and and that there is there is a dimension of our relationships with those that we work with that has that that there's a barrier there, whether it's imposed by uh unbiblical perspectives on business or family or work or whatever it is, and that God has given us this ministry of reconciliation to be able to uh restore those relationships in their proper uh to their proper place so that we would end up loving people on a level on a level that we never thought possible in our kind of um dog eat dog, transactional, just get it, get it done for the bottom line, but realizing there's a there's a there's a bottom bottom line underneath that uh that that is eternal, but that this perspective uh can can provide. Um and so you know, I don't know about our listeners, but I'm really gonna continue to dive into this topic of household and and see and and see what God, how, how God's people have navigated this. Because this faith and work uh conversation is not anything new. I mean, this is something that has been going on for a millennia where God's people have been trying to navigate how do we honor God with our with our business? And certainly, you know, they didn't always get it right. You know, there was slavery, there were things that just should not have been there. Uh, but there there is a place that our relationships can be with our the people that we work with uh and with our family as well, with this, with this perspective that you're really helping us to see here today. So, Dave, tell us uh a bit more about how you're serving business leaders and and where people can find out more about you in the book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, so I have a I have a couple different websites. Uh, first of all, the the the book is called The Good Book on Business. And if you go to the Goodbookonbusiness.com, there's a webpage devoted to the book. And um uh you can buy it there, you can buy it on Amazon and so on. Just uh as an aside, look for the second edition. And there's a whole long story why we have a second edition out so quickly, but we do. So there's there's a good book on business. I have another uh website that I'm building out, and that's called the Biblical Business Resource Center.com. Biblical Business Resource Center dot com. Now we've got resources there uh to for for uh Christian businesses or biblical businesses. There's a blog and there's some articles and some websites and things like that. And we're continuing adding to that. We're gonna start a new page where we profile uh biblical businesses just uh you know, just to give people an example of what people are doing out there in this world. Uh I also have uh we uh is as part of the work that I do in the sales arena, we have a website where we have uh 400 or so uh online audio and video programs for sales managers and leaders and so on. We have a s certain section of that for biblical business people. And there's a biblical business course uh that if you're if if you've got a business and you wanna you really do do want to turn it into a biblical business, then it takes you through very methodically through uh several steps that I recommend uh identifying very specifically practices to put into your business. And you can you can find that course on uh actually I think it's on the in the Biblical Business Resource Center. There's a link, and um and there's a link on the good book. And and my and my and my sort of uh legacy page is DaveKale.com. That's where all the stuff that you know is somehow linked to DaveKale.com. So if you go there, you'll eventually and and you dig around, you'll eventually find what you're looking for.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful. And uh and that's k-a-h le dot com, Dave Kale. Uh well, and Dave, why don't you leave us with a parting piece of advice?
SPEAKER_02Well, um are your readers business people, Darren, or your listeners business people?
SPEAKER_01They are indeed, many of them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I guess uh I guess my uh parting piece of advice is God has given you a very special ministry. Uh don't blow it. Really truly, don't don't accept, don't accept the false paradigms that are put forward by those two sources that I mentioned. Think for yourself, look in the Bible. You have a very special ministry. You have the ability to impact dozens, hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of people for the kingdom. Don't blow it. Get serious about this.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Great advice. Don't blow it, get serious about this. Uh, Dave, thank you for this uh conversation. Thank you for writing this book for the work that you're doing to make an impact uh for the Lord in the marketplace, and may God continue to bless everything you put your mind to and everything you put your hand to.
SPEAKER_02Wouldn't that be something? Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Darren. You know, I honestly I'm I am blessed that that God uh used this book to bring this message. I'm thrilled by it. I'm I'm uh awed by it. I'm so thankful that uh I could have a part in it.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.