Today we're going to be discussing how orality is bringing the gospel into the business world, and we're joined by Jerry Wiles. Jerry is the president emeritus of Living Water International and North America Regional Director of the International Orality Network. He has more than 30 years of experience in ministry and international work, uh, international missions work, that is, and has been a paradigm pioneer in the orality movement. And specifically, and the reason why we have him on today is because he's been working diligently to bring this paradigm of orality into the business world for the sake of the gospel. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Jerry.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. You might just add one little vignette to that. I spent 12 years with Houston Baptist University, and since this is connected with HBU, that might be interest to some. And also I spent a number of years in the business world, sales and marketing and sales management, mainly while I was putting myself through college and seminary. Beautiful. So just a little added feature there that the business people might be interested in.
SPEAKER_01And like myself, Jerry is also an Air Force veteran.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so thank you for your service. Well, here's the burning question that our audience has right now, Jerry. What is orality and why is it important for Christian business professionals?
SPEAKER_00Well, the definition of the word orality does not tell us the magnitude of the movement or the orality domain. Orality simply means they reliance upon uh spoken or non-written communication, which can be a variety of world arts. The reason it's so important to the business world is because it's really important to every segment of society where you have people and you need relationships and community. So when you when you business people understand the power of orality-based communication and instructional uh training tools and resources, it's huge. And so we're on this amazing learning journey discovering the multiple applications beyond just sharing the gospel and making disciples and planting churches, but seeing how it works in many different aspects of the business world and the marketplace.
SPEAKER_01So, what are kind of some of the components of orality? Storytelling would be one. What how would how would you kind of break it down into some of its component parts?
SPEAKER_00Well, storytelling would be foundational, but also understanding things like learning and communication theory, learning about how people process information. So when we think about training and equipping people, whatever the application is, if they can relate to people, if they have a better way of communicating, training in a way that would be cross-cultural, international, and reproducible. So when we think about the global marketplace, uh issues like honor and shame and understanding worldview, uh all those are important parts of the orality journey. And now we're getting into the academic community and discovering different uh disciplines that relate to better understanding this. So this is not what we would use in the bush in West Africa or some remote area where they're a totally oral culture, but the lessons we learn in those places will apply here. And we we would say orality is the most effective ways that people have learned and communicated from the beginning of time, but it's been neglected for the most part for the past 500 years since Gutenberg and the printing press. But now where many are talking about the Gutenberg parenthesis, where we're getting back now to secondary oral learners. There's primary oral learners, secondary oral learners, or we would use oral preference learners. So it doesn't have to do with education level or the ability to read and write as much as it does about learning and communication preferences, the more relational, communal lessons we learn from the global south and the more oral cultures.
SPEAKER_01So let's say that I'm a business leader in my company and maybe in middle management. I'm on my lunch break listening to this, I'm about to go back into the office. What are some of the things, you know, how what is this, what does this mean for me in my workplace, in my leadership, in my in my workplace, and how can it how can it make a difference for me today?
SPEAKER_00Well, one of the things is uh get people to discuss important issues together and and the shared discovering the value of shared knowledge and the relational uh uh the the collective memory of a group. So if you have people who have will have important conversations, you might have a God in life discussion group, or you might have a a brown bag lunch where you get together. Now, what you would do is begin to talk about what are some uh challenges we might be facing in family relationships or or on the job, or how can we better perform performance uh and uh professional development. Now, when we get to talking about these things, where are the best lessons we learn about leadership, about equipping and training? Uh and we would eventually get to thinking about the life and the spirit and the teachings of Jesus because we say that he is our best model as a as a trainer, communicator, disciple maker. And what we learn from the simple lessons from uh 2,000 years ago uh will work today. So in our more isolated, uh alienated uh culture to the Western world, uh we don't have as much connectivity. So this is uh an opportunity to have people better connected, build relationships, build uh team team building and uh cultural development. So we have several good examples of that, and uh so we're we're on a pretty amazing learning journey as we're able to have a global uh community of learning and practice and um seeing some some good results.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what would be some of those examples of how a business person could use orality as a tool, say for organizational development?
SPEAKER_00Well, when you think about organizational development or corporate culture, uh someone like Patrick Vincioni, and he's a friend, we've had some conversations about this, what are the things that we need to do to build relationships and build teamwork and also uh the corporate culture? I have a friend here in Houston who's had some experience in this area just observing how companies work. And there is uh if you take a story approach and you're intentional about bringing people together to build relationships and have community within the corporate structure, um that that's huge. And then in terms of communication, uh some would say that we need leaders, we need visionaries, we need managers, but we need storytellers. We need to have an understanding of the history of the corporation to maintain uh a focus on the on the vision and the mission and the core values. So stories and conversations are better than spreadsheets and PowerPoints and handouts. So you get people to talking about these issues, what they mean, how do they apply to their lives?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. You know, Louis Gigliot's a favorite quote of mine, he said that the world doesn't need a lecture, the world needs a picture. And the only way that we can do that orally is by telling stories. And you know, I think that's why Jesus probably somewhere between 31 of 65 of his parables uh were were stories. So what what are some of the the principles or the the methods when it comes to telling a good story, you know, maybe uh to uh to communicate and energize the the employees in my company um by telling some stories of of impact that we're making as a company? How would you coach somebody that maybe is more of a facts and statistics type person uh to kind of get out of that box and tell more of a more of a story, a word picture?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, you you have uh uh probably a thousand stories in the Bible, more or less, depending on what scholar you talk about. So there are there are stories that address every possible human problem or challenge we face. Uh for example, uh something like risk management or leadership, or uh you can take some story like uh when Peter walked on the water, when Jesus came out, and Peter said, If it's really you, Lord, uh tell me to come to you. So he said, Come. So Peter gets out and walks on the water. So we can use that story to talk about the other disciples didn't even ask about getting out of the boat. Peter stepped out on the water. Now, when he took his eyes off Jesus, he started to sink. He said, Lord, save me. So Jesus reached out, grabbed him, and he said, Why are you so afraid? Uh why did you doubt me? So you can use these simple stories to talk about trust, you can talk about vision, you can talk about faith, uh, you can talk about lots of different things. You can talk about, for example, the story of the woman at the well, where Jesus encounters this Samaritan woman, and she says, uh, he asked for a drink. And she said, You're a Jew, and I'm a Samaritan and a woman. How you can ask, how can you ask me for a drink? Well, in the African context, we might lead that, that might lead to talking about tribal conflict or racial issues or uh ethnic differences. So, what do we learn from that story about how Jesus related to people who were different? And should be, how can we better relate to people with different values, uh, personality types, or different uh uh, you know, the differences? How can we uh find common ground? So those are a lot of great conversations that come in those from those stories.
SPEAKER_01And and of course, one of the I mean the really the primary motivation behind this orality movement is the gospel. It's a gospel-centric movement and and through looking at uh at communicating the gospel from an oral perspective and cross-cultural, and there's just so many different nuances. Um what let's say that we're here in uh maybe a Western nation like the US and and it's it's I really want to share the gospel with one of my coworkers, you know. I can't I can't just pack if I'm the leader of my company, I can't just pack the employees into the company and preach at them necessarily. Um but uh there's such something so powerful about sharing a story. How would you coach somebody in terms of orality and workplace evangelism?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it starts with uh asking questions and listening and making friends, and we've seen this over and over again. Uh rather than a propositional approach, if you begin to ask, and there is a relational storying approach to this where you talk about their story, your story, and God's story. So if you ask the right questions, you engage in a conversation and you listen, often people will say, Well, tell me your story, or what's your experience, or what are some defining moments in your life that's brought you to do what you're doing? So it's it's a really uh not as complicated as most people uh think it is. And in the global context, when you think about cross-cultural, international, reproducible models, what are the, and uh, this is part of a larger conversation we get into, really uh rethinking what is the gospel and uh and whatever the application is in the business world or some other area, uh, we have two basic things we're focusing on. That is communicating the gospel and making disciples to all people and making disciples of among all people groups. So it's not enough to proclaim the gospel, it's important for people to hear it, understand it, be able to process it, remember it, and reproduce it. So when we get into that reproducibility part, sometimes we have to think through some of the uh institutional and traditional aspects that we have in our modern Christian worldview and get back to the essence of what is a gospel, what is the gospel, what is a disciple, when's a person become a disciple? Um, what do disciples do? How did Jesus make disciples? Can we make disciples the way he made disciples? Of course, the work of the Holy Spirit, we realize that it's ultimately uh the work of God that we can be instruments of his redemptive activity. And we say you don't have to be a great storyteller because we have great stories to tell. So when we tell the stories, ask the right questions, uh the Holy Spirit speaks and works and brings transformation. So uh the simple stories, if you were to ask a question, for example, if you were to say, Would you like to hear a story that would help you better deal with the pressure and difficulties and problems in your life? Like to hear a story like that. Most people here like to hear a story. So you tell them the story of Jesus calming the storm, and then there's a set of questions you would ask and lead people through discussing that story. We talk about we all face storms of life. Can Jesus bring calmness during our storms of life? He asked those disciples after that storm, why were you so afraid? Where is your faith? So faith and fear. There's so many lit lessons you can bring out just in a short conversation, a short story. So if people learn stories, they tell stories. It may start with asking a question and telling a story. In a more structured disciple-making effort, it might be telling stories and a set of questions with a set of stories. So there's so many different ways to approach this, but it's uh unique to our culture because we in the modern Western text-based instructional uh culture we live in, we just have to get past that and get back to a more simple reproducible model.
SPEAKER_01I love that. And and and for those who are listening in the US, you know, we're very much accustomed to kind of transactional communication versus in many other parts of the world, uh, oral tradition is the uh that is the primary means of communication and telling stories and and so forth. And and so especially when doing business with with trying to share the gospel cross-culturally, so critical to take into consideration and the the necessity of telling stories, telling powerful stories um from the Bible when we're trying to share the gospel. Um but even just marketing and sales, uh all those kinds of things, telling stories. I mean, that's really how in many other cultures that communication and and powerful communication happens, right?
SPEAKER_00Right. I was just ha had a phone conversation with a friend of mine who's in the car business up in uh the Washington, D.C. area. And he said, he actually introduced me to some of this years ago about the power of storytelling and marketing. He said he's he speaks, he recently spoke before the general uh the Virginia Association of Car Dealers. And he said, when he gets up and he says, Let me tell you a story, as soon as he uses that word story, people sort of captive it. They sort of set up, they listen. So uh some of our leaders in the orality movement say that we're wired for stories. So the power of stories, now you can see a lot in the business world that you didn't see 15 years ago about this uh storytelling. If you do a Google search on storytelling and sales or storytelling in business storytelling in different areas, so it's now it's become a big uh topic is the power of telling the stories. And if we apply that to the way we communicate the gospel, uh that's huge. And so we're seeing some really good results in that area. And I've been on this journey for uh for a number of years. I tell people you can learn a lot in 30 years, uh, even if you're a slow learner. So I was introduced to this back in the 80s through a book called Oral Communication of the Scriptures: Insights into African Oral Art. But those principles and concepts will work, they're pretty universal, and they'll work anywhere in the world.
SPEAKER_01Well, Jerry, tell us about the International Orality Network and specifically the orality and business network.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, the international orality network actually started in uh Amsterdam 2000 with a group of uh mission leaders and they formed the Oral Bible task force and did research and looked at some of the better understanding of that most of the people of the world are oral learners by necessity or by preference. And then they formed the International Orality Network in 2004 with 30 organizations. Now there's more than 2,000 organizations. So out of the learning journey that we're on and the multiple applications, we've actually started the global orality training alliance, and then a new initiative is the Orality and Business Network, and you'll be hearing more about that. The annual conference of the International Orality Network will be this September in Colorado Springs, and more will be on that soon on orality.net. Then there's another initiative working with the academic community and serving and supporting institutions, seminaries, and graduate and undergraduate institutions, and creating orality study programs. So the International Society for Orality Myssiology. And so all those things work together, the academic and the business side, and in uh conversation recently with uh Dr. Lang, uh one of your co-workers and the director of the Center for Christianity and Business. Uh so we're we're seeing uh some overlapping uh with the academic world, the business world, and other segments of society. So bringing that we want to identify the best, most fruitful practices, bring that together and bring it into classrooms, but also into the marketplace. And there are many different ways to learn this. We don't want to make it so uh academic that it's not relevant to the people who need it the most, but I think the more we can have this part of the academic community is gonna be huge in terms of equipping people to be more effective in in any area of of uh business.
SPEAKER_01Well, orality is is critical, audible communication. I mean, that's why we're doing this podcast. I mean, it it's it's great to write blog articles, which I do a lot of that, uh, but there's something just so powerful about podcasts because people may be driving, they may be uh doing uh other sorts of work right now, cleaning the house, whatever the case may be, but you can listen to podcasts, and and I mean, in fact, one of the primary ways that I uh consume scripture now is through a daily audio Bible podcast. I've been doing that for probably seven years, you know. I'll go through the entire Bible um that way, but but this uh orality is such a powerful concept. Uh Jerry, what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our Christian business professionals today?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say just keep an eye on the movement. Uh visit the website orality.net. We're gonna have more articles and case studies and journals addressing various issues from the arts, but also now, as you're talking about the technology, there's so much new technology we didn't have a few years ago. So I just did a training and a consultation on a halfway around the world just the other day on a on Skype. So there's all kinds of creative ways to use the media and the technology available. We, in our global context and in our outreach and the Great Commission part of bringing the gospel and planning churches and disciple making, we want to be totally reproducible to any place. So we don't want to be technology dependent or dependent on uh literature. So we've trained people that are doing this in very difficult places where you could not take Bibles or equipment. So, still, the most effective ways that people have come to the Lord is through those personal, uh, the incarnational witness and personally telling the story. So we want to keep that in the in the forefront, but using all the technology and communicating truth, making disciples by all means.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful. Well, Jerry, what is the website where people can learn more?
SPEAKER_00That would be orality.net, or a l-i-t-y dot net. When we say orality, some people are thinking we're saying morality. Uh we're all for morality also, but it's like morality without the M. So orality.net. And we'll have more uh details about upcoming events and training resources, and so I'd say keep an eye on that website.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Orality.net is the website. Jerry, thank you so much for your ministry, for the work you're doing uh to disciple, to share the gospel, and to bring uh this this technique, uh, this God-inspired, I mean, really this it's too woven into the fabric of who we are as people. Uh, may God continue to bless uh your ministry.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much. It's my pleasure, and uh thank you.
SPEAKER_01We hope you've enjoyed this episode.