Today, we're going to be discussing why faith at work matters, and we're joined by Dr. Daryl Bach. Dr. Bach is the executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary, where he's also a senior research professor of New Testament Studies. He's the author of over 40 books, which is just astonishing to me. I got the pleasure of meeting Daryl at a recent faith and work event here in Houston a few months ago. He just put on a fantastic event. He's a great host and incredible insight and wisdom and got a just a lot of uh energy, and he had his laughing throughout the whole day. But I think you're gonna really enjoy this episode. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Daryl.
SPEAKER_02It's my pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_01Well, as we get kicked off here, we're gonna be talking about why faith at work matters, and and you're gonna be sharing some reasons for that. Uh, but before we get kicked off with that, why don't you share with us a little bit of background, some theology of work and and kind of where business shows up in the Bible?
SPEAKER_02Well, we don't get the word business anywhere, at least explicitly in the Bible, but what we do get is starts right at the beginning with what is called the creation mandate. We're told to breat fruitful and multiply and to rule over the earth, which talks about bringing into submission and with a solid stewardship the creation that God put Adam and Eve in. So from the very beginning, the idea was that human beings made in the image of God would be responsible for the management of the creation that God had given us and the management really of their own lives within that creation. Uh and within that sphere, obviously, business and commerce play a major role. So you literally have business put in place at the beginning of God's business with people in Genesis 1.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Isn't the Hebrew word kibosh there when it talks about subduing trust we're talking about?
SPEAKER_02We're gonna kabosh the creation, which don't really that probably doesn't mean what we think it means when we say it that way, but that's exactly the word. It's the idea of management or subduing something. It has uh the second word that's used is the word rule rada, which pictures uh someone who's able to tread over, say, grapes in order to produce wine, that kind of thing. So it has to do with management. A third word used in relationship to Genesis 2 and the building of the tabernacle is the word malakah, which refers to craftsmanship or handiwork. So there are lots of different words that are used, Hebrew words that are used to get at the the way in which we work and toil uh as a way of managing that creation.
SPEAKER_01Sure. And I'm sure all of our business people can relate to uh stewardship and management. They're probably doing it even as we speak today. Uh so certainly given how early it shows up in the Bible, that commandment to subdue and to and to rule, this is something that's extremely important to God. So so now you have eight reasons why faith at work matters. Why don't you share with us a couple of those reasons?
SPEAKER_02Well, um, one of them is really pretty transparent, and is this is because it's where people spend most of their time. Uh in fact, we sometimes joke, I sometimes joke with my people at work that I go, I spend more time with you than I do with my wife. And uh and so, you know, this is where people spend most of their time, most of their creative energy is spent in relationship to their work. And so that's certainly one reason. And and so when we when we create a mentality that says there's the spiritual stuff that I do, and then there's my work as if it's separate, we've actually secularized our work and we've secularized the major portion of our lives. And I think that God has us called to be his people wherever he has us, and certainly in the place where he has us more than any other place. So uh those so those are kind of the first two reasons, uh, because it's where people spend most of their time, and to think about faith at work is to think about de-secularizing the way in which you spend a major part of your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And doesn't some of that confusion come from the way that we think about ministry? You know, when we hear our pastors talk about, you know, when God called me into the ministry and then they kind of go on the story about how they went to Bible school and so forth. I mean, is is that what ministry is or is it or is it something broader than that?
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's it's broader than that. Everybody has a calling, and the calling that they have is the is the place and network that God puts them in. It's the gifts that he gives them to use. Uh those callings are related. That's just what why the creation mandate is so important, uh, because God has equipped us to contribute to society through the gifts that he gives us and the and the places where he places us, and that can be uh uh and certainly includes our work. So ministry, which is simply service, uh happens anywhere. And and and so it's it's important to view our work as a means of service. It's a means of ministry. You are serving other people and you're helping them with uh manage their lives by the contribution you make in in the role that you have in your work.
SPEAKER_01And and so our church leaders who are called to the ministry really are called to equip others for the work of ministry, right? To equip the saints for the work of ministry. So maybe it's more appropriate for them to say that they are in the equipping than to say that they are in the ministry as if not all of us are called to the ministry. Because if you're a believer, I mean that is our calling to the ministry, but some are called to the equipping, is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think the other error that's made here is is that we think that ministry to be ministry only has to happen within the church. Well, in fact, ministry i is something we're called to uh in general. I mean, w we are called to serve people, are called to love them. That's a part of our the ethical calling of our spiritual walk. That takes place wherever God has us. We can't crawl out of our skin. So um so we have to be wherever uh wherever God has us, that's that's where He's got us functioning and ministering and interacting, and and that we should see that part of our lives as something to which God uh has directed us and thus um and thus what we do matters.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And as you pointed out, I mean, not only do we spend a limited amount of time in our church, you know, I think regular church attendance is defined as attends twice a month. And so that's three hours a month or something like that, compared to, as you said before, how we spend so much of our time in the workplace, I mean, uh it's probably what sixty to seventy percent of our waking hours.
SPEAKER_02That's right. And so, you know, so we're intended uh to be there. Thomas Merton said that all vocations are intended by God to manifest his love in the world. And so it's just a way of making clear that when God called people and made them in his image and said manage the earth, that management takes place in the context of the variety of vocations that people participate in, and that uh that sanctifies people's work if they will view it in the right kind of way.
SPEAKER_01So, what's another reason why faith at work matters to God?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh this is again another pretty transparent one, but it's important. It's because it's often neglected. Uh I like to tell people when I speak to pastors, I say, How many times do you actually speak to the nine to five hour of your parishioners? Um how often when you look out to your audience rather than seeing, you know, your neighbor or your community or your school, do you think about I'm speaking to teachers, I'm speaking to lawyers, I'm speaking to accountants, you know, and things and and view them through the lens of the vocations that you have represented in the audience. And I I get confessions, you know, uh they say I don't I don't I don't do this very often. And so this is a neglected theme. And when you put that next to the idea that it's where the people spell spend the bulk of their time, then that produces a really interesting tension because if I am not speaking to the place where people spend most of their time, I'm actually communicating the lack of relevance of my Christian faith to people without realizing that's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, Darrell, you reminded me of uh a moment, a powerful moment at the Faith of Work event that you hosted here in Houston a a couple months ago. And I I think you were actually moderating this panel when the pastor uh had confessed that that he had basically neglected this message for his and he had already retired as a pastor.
SPEAKER_02For 40 years. Yep.
SPEAKER_01And had totally and had totally missed it.
SPEAKER_02Yep, exactly. So we you know, we got a confession at the we got a confession at the conference, and now we just need to get a confession at some of the services, and we'll be in good shape.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, amen, amen. I think it's happening. So so it's often neglected. What would be another reason why faith and work matters to God?
SPEAKER_02It it is a major theme in scripture. By that I mean how you do your work, how you think about your work, how you do your labor. Uh, one of the great examples I like to point out is that when God describes the building of the tabernacle, uh, this is in Exodus, um, he literally goes through the building of the tabernacle of vocation at a time, uh, mentioning what needs to be done, who's uh the the the skills that are required to do it, affirming uh what it takes to build uh to build that tabernacle and affirming the skills and gifts that have been handed out to people in the community in order to accomplish it. So that's that's one example. Obviously, the scripture has a lot to say about our money and our possessions, which of course are related to our business, because that's you know, we earn a wage and the question is what should we do with what we earn? Those kinds of things. So so this is a major theme in scripture that uh that that takes place that uh that oftentimes isn't viewed from this particular angle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm curious, uh, what is your what is your take on spiritual gifts in the workplace? I mean, is that are they for the workplace or are they just for uh church buildings and services? You know, when Paul talks about administration or prophecy, um what what where are those just where are those supposed to be used?
SPEAKER_02Well, he has primarily the church in mind because he's talking about what builds up the body of Christ. But having said that, obviously, if people have skills in this area, they transfer over to the other places where God has them. But spiritual gifts are designed to be exercised in the context of the spiritual communities in which people participate.
SPEAKER_01So what's another so that to affirm the skills and gifts, what would be another example?
SPEAKER_02Um it uh it enhances appreciation of our neighbor when we understand the role of vocation in life. I uh there's an illustration I love to use when I'm giving this talk, and it and it and it asks this question. Have you ever thought about what it takes for you to have a bowl of Wheaties in the morning? Um and just think about all the vocations that are required for you to be able to open up that box and pour that that collection of grain into your bowl, put milk in it, sit at a table in a home. What all does it take for you to have a comfortable bowl of Wheaties in the morning? And I and then I go through, well let's just talk about the grain, you know, the farmer who grows it all the way through, um, to you know, the people who transport it, the people who process it, etc., the box that it contains, the people who do all the finance work for the businesses that handle that, the people who build the roads so it can get from A to B. I mean, and it just expands once you start to think about, okay, well that's just the grain. What about the milk? Okay, that's the farmer, you know, comes from the cows. We've still got the transporting cycle, we've got the processing of the milk. I haven't even mentioned in either of those cases everything that happens at a grocery store that allows you to be able to pick up that box and and pour it. Okay, now let's go to the let's go to the bowl, you know, the people who designed the bowl, etc. Let's go to the table that you sit at, let's go through that process, let's go through the house that you sit in, okay? So I I basically compare it to, you know, when you go to the end of the movie and they do those credits, which everyone's walking out, they're not paying attention at that point, but you think about here are all the people that were responsible for you being able to sit down and enjoy ninety minutes to two hours of entertainment. Okay? Well, it's the s same thing with a bowl of cereal. So my point here is is that when we appreciate even the mu very mundane things that some people do that make it possible for me to be able to engage in a very simple activity of life, you know, having a bowl of cereal in the morning. Um all of a sudden there's a there's a a level of appreciation for for the vocation that my neighbors undertake that allow me to experience this.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah, I mean it it is it is it really makes us appreciate the uh every person that that God has made and that we all have a purpose. That's right.
SPEAKER_02And um even even the guy I like to say, even the guy who holds that sign on the highway while the highway construction is going on saying stop or go, okay. All right, I mean that's how that's how the truck can get from A to B because they're building that road so that that transport can take place. That's a part of this sequence. So it's even down to levels that mundane.
SPEAKER_01Right. So I think what is that reason that's the reason number six? Yep, that's reasonable number number seven.
SPEAKER_02Number seven is because it shows that theology does impact life. What you're actually articulating is how theology uh puts on its uh socks and boots in the morning and walks into the office and you live out your life with an with this attitude and appreciation about your work, your understanding about where it fits, your appreciation for those who are around you. So it it's a wonderful illustration that theology actually impacts life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because uh, you know, when I went to seminary, I didn't get theology of work or theology of business. I had to go and kind of discover that after the fact. Um, you know, I sure got a good dose of ecclesiology and missiology and and a lot of other ologies, but it's it's so critical because given that's where we spend the majority of our waking hours is at work, uh, that we have an understanding of God's interest in in our everyday life.
SPEAKER_02That's right. And and this uh it means that the most important features of where you spend the bulk of your time in your life are shown to matter and fit into a much larger puzzle that you can appreciate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, we're building to a crescendo here. How about number eight?
SPEAKER_02Okay, number eight. This is actually my favorite in the list. And think about it for a second. Because in how we do our work, we build our credibility with those we work with for whatever we might want to share with them about Christ. Okay, now just think about that for a second, okay? Um, what I'm saying is that the way in which you engage people, the people you work with, particularly the unbelievers that you work with, the credibility that you build about how you do your work and how you go about your vocation actually builds a sense of credibility about who you are as a person. And in the midst of that, you create a bridge for the possibility of engaging people in the gospel and them taking you seriously because they respect the way you go about doing your work.
SPEAKER_01Hmm. Wow, it's powerful. I mean, because that if they're gonna I think D. L. Moody was the one who said that out of a hundred people, uh, one person will read the Bible, the other ninety-nine will read the Christian. And and so depending on how we conduct ourselves out in the workplace, I mean, that's gonna make or break our testimony, our witness.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. In fact, I like uh I I would remember a chapel message, one of the few chapel messages I remember when I was in seminary, who's and they said it this way, you may be the only Bible some people ever read.
SPEAKER_01That's it.
SPEAKER_02I think that says it in the same in a similar kind of way. So what message are they getting about the Christian faith by the way you do your work and the way you conduct yourself at work? Um that I think raises all kinds of interesting questions about how we go about our vocation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then and then we need to be ready to give a reason for the hope that's a good thing. Exactly right. First people need to ask us the question, and I think they ask it in a lot of different ways. It's not always point blank, what must I do to be saved? But they may be asking for, you know, why are you so happy all the time? Or, you know, exactly you're you seem to be making an unpopular decision here uh that may not be as ex may not be the some the most expedient thing to do, but it's obviously the right thing to do, you know, hey, I really appreciate that. Well, you know, let me let me tell you what that's all about for me. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And so it's it's i and here's the other element is in the gospel, there's inherently a challenge on people's lives. You know, you challenge the way people live in the gospel. I mean, obviously, you know, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. However, you want to think about that, even in the news, the call of faith, Jesus died for sin. Okay, those aren't pleasant messages in some ways. People push back on that. So the people will only care about your critique of their life that comes out of the gospel if they know you care about them, and if they and if they think you have credibility as a person.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And so so this is a very, very important element of the total equation.
SPEAKER_01Well said. Well, there's our there's our eight reasons. Uh, Darrell, why don't you leave us with uh a parting piece of advice and then let us know where people can learn more about you and the podcast and uh and also your books as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, main thing I would say is don't sell your work short. I mean, it is a very, very important uh it it's very, very important for you to know how your work fits and where you fit in your work, but it's also a very important means for establishing uh the credibility of who you are as a person in a society, and it and most work makes a contribution that makes the lives of all of us easier. The particular skill that you bring, the particular ability. I mean, we've got we've got someone sitting in our front yard right now um uh digging up our driveway and repaving it. Okay, seems like a little thing. But I can't do that, you know. I can't fix that myself. Uh and there will come a day when my car is really happy that the driveway has been redesigned because it's it's been a pretty messy place uh here recently. And so even the m most mundane skills, there's something that contributes that makes our life a little you know, the guy who's the mechanic who can fix the air conditioner. Pretty important in the summer in Dallas. Um so there are a wide variety of skills that people have. You know, the person who can translate something from one language to another. Um there are a wide variety of skills that people have that can that can work. Uh as for my books, the uh I think the best way to do it is uh go to a place like Amazon, just uh just Google Daryl Bach and you'll see the list of books there. They run a variety of topics. Um I also host a weekly blog, some of which deals with faith and work called The Table. That's at www.dts.edu slash the table. That's all one word, the table. And we cover a huge array of topics. Some of them are faith and work, some of them relate to, well, the tagline is welcome to the table, where we discuss issues of God and culture. And they just run the array of of stuff that people run into that have uh kind of where where God is present in life, which means that's just about everything.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well, I'll have that linked up in the show notes so people can go and check that out. Daryl, thank you so much. I know you you got a lot going on, helping a lot of students and uh and uh just equipping the saints for the work of ministry out in the workplace and and beyond. And thank you for what you're doing guys.