Today we're going to be discussing the topic of how God picks the right people for the right roles. And we're joined by Ken Vaughn. And so backing up, back in college, I gave a presentation at a class called The Psychology of Religious Experience, and I gave a presentation on the personality types of, there was a lot to the presentation, but one of the things I talked about was that I had come across some research that had been done where somebody had taken the disc personality assessment, the DISD, and looked at some of the characters from the Bible that really matched each one of those categories. And what I discovered recently was the man that actually created this. He was really the first to do this, and that's Ken Vaugus, who we're talking to today. Ken is the author of the original author of the Biblical Personal Profile, which associates biblical characters with the with the disc model of behavior. And this product was first published in 1985. And it remains in print and continues to be used all over. This information remains the cornerstone resource for other products in integrating disc profiles with uh biblical characters. And he's also published several other books, including Understanding How Others Misunderstand You. That's got a book and a workbook. And it serves as a 13-week course in building biblical relationships. And certainly there are going to be a lot of takeaways for business professionals here today. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Ken.
SPEAKER_01Great to be with you, Aaron. Great to talk about one of my favorite subjects is to integrating biblical uh characters to a secular tool that is used throughout the world in trying to do team building and whatever. But I think the the real strength of the product is how it parallels how God did it. And uh since he created us, he knows what we can do, what we can't do, and he knows how to put teams together. And that's what's so fascinating as you go ahead and look at it, look at his word and and and uh look at the Bible, both in the old and the new testament, as to uh as he went ahead and and took certain particular characters who the who the world would not select, but he knew what he was doing. Uh for for instance, you know, he uh he picked uh Jesus picked a bunch of fishermen, you know, and uh said, Well, why would you pick those guys? I mean, they're from Galilee, nothing could good comes out of Galilee. And yet he knew exactly what he was doing, and of course, uh the the leader of that was Peter, and and uh Peter gets a lot of uh bad press, in my opinion, and and uh they really don't know and they they don't really study, you know, that Jesus never lost confidence in who Peter was, is a his communication skill. Peter was uh, you know, pretty had some really rough edges, but but Jesus saw something in him that communicating skills that was outstanding. And most people know about his three denials. What they don't know is you know his ministry in in the book of Acts. And his presenting the gospel to the Sanhedrin was incredible. And uh the that ability to go ahead and answer the question by what power do you do something, you know, and he was on trial and he was looking at 70 uh judges wanting to kill him, and and the job that he did, uh, you know, to presenting, let me tell you who this Jesus person is. So he was he was the right person, you know, and during that time to work with with the Jewish uh culture there to present Christ as as Lord and Savior. I mean, it's just uh outstanding. I I think the thing that that that um that I like the most about that Acts 4 thing, and it says, when they ask the question, when the Sannyuch asked the question, why what power do you do it? And and it starts out, and Luke does a great job that says, and Peter filled what the Holy Spirit said. And it it doesn't matter what your profile is, as long as you're led by the Holy Spirit, there's some tremendous things you can do. But uniquely and naturally, you have specific, specific gifts to go ahead and and do play specific roles. And and Peter's the giftedness was was certainly those verbal skills.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Now why don't we talk about kind of the overall disk and and and first of all, what led you to go into this in-depth studies of the personalities of biblical characters?
SPEAKER_01I I appreciate the question. I'm not sure that you're gonna be ready for this answer. Okay. What I did is uh I I I had the privilege God gave me an incredibly beautiful wife. And um I uh we were we've been narrow married 52 years. Okay. Oh wow, congratulations. Okay, and it was what what I wanted to do was figure out how to love her. That that I I I I I loved her, but I had no idea how to do that. And it is through the basic understanding that we are incredibly different. What is so normal, Darren, is that opposites attract. Okay. And boy, was that true of us. And uh we found out probably about, oh, I'd say three to uh four years into our marriage, boy, we're different. And we in the flesh know how to go ahead and get into conflict. And but we really what I wanted to do is figure out how to love her. And that and and through the disc material gave us that insight in how to communicate. Okay. That's what it was. A you ask the question, I'm answering a question, why am I into this to figure out how to love my wife? And we've had some degree of success. We've been married 52 years.
SPEAKER_00Wow, wow. And so at some point you turn the corner and and it and it wasn't just about the disc assessment, but you really became fascinated with what you started to see how this shows up in the lives of the biblical characters.
SPEAKER_01Right. What happened here is what I discovered is not only did I understand the biblical characters as real people, not fictional characters, but real people who who had feet of clay. All of us do. There's only one that didn't. And what what uh what I what I studied as I saw that, I saw a relationship. The the one of the one of the big struggles I have as I teach in in in seminary is that so much of of the training of people that go to seminary are extracting, exegeting uh biblical principles out of the word. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I see there's much more to who God is and that he's an incredibly relational God, both his son and who the Father is. And within that um of that study, I I discovered the relational strategies of the various D, I, S, and C styles, which which, if we understand it, if we know how to do it, then what we're gonna do is fulfill what Jesus uh said was important when the fair and when the Pharisee asked him a question. The question in Matthew 22 was this. The question is, what is the most important commandment? Okay, and he says, Um, they're two. Jesus is kind of like that. You know, you you think he got him cornered, and and then he throws you a zinger, and he did. And he and he threw, he told him, I said they're true. He says, Love the God, uh, love the Lord God Father with all your heart, mind, and soul, and and and and go ahead and love your neighbors yourself. And you do those two things, and you can go ahead and and and figure it out. Now, where I where I'm in the disk model behavior, and this is important now, what I'm about to tell you the definition of loving your neighbors yourself is understanding the basic need of the individual you're talking to. Okay, and the disk model behavior, what it does is it defines needs. That's as simple as I can make it, and I hope you understand what I'm trying to tell you. We have uh a secular model that can be used in the secular world to figure out how to go ahead and create the right environment. And see, that's the that's the that's the secular word you have to use, creating the right environment, you know. And and and and that's a mask way to say figuring out how to love one another. That's that's what it does. If I can if I can leave our listeners with one thing, it's a dismodels behavior, it's it's giftedness or it's uh what it does is helps us understand the needs of other people so that we can love them. And what what what the biblical characters do and what I've done there is to show these models in Christ or God the Father through four major characters, Peter, Paul, Moses, and Abraham. It's there, it's in the scriptures. And and and the problem is with where we are with with the teaching of how to go ahead and and teach from the Bible, is it's all principles, it's never relationships. And that's if I have anything to go ahead and and say, it is can I help you? Can I come alongside you and tell you the relational side of who God is, the relational side of who Christ is through the biblical characters? That's that's that's in essence what I'm trying to go ahead and do. And that's what I um teach at uh at uh one of the D men courses up in Dallas. That's what I go ahead and do. Helping these pastors figure out how to love their congregation, how to love their individual people, how to do premarital counseling. And um, of course, what I do too, and and this is where your giftedness is, and what you're trying to do is how do we help businesses go ahead and use this tool? Uh, I'm telling you, it's a very powerful tool, but boy, you add the scripture to it, you got some real serious power here.
SPEAKER_00So, why don't we dig into the the different uh quarters of this of this disc. So so start starting off with the D, what is that D category and and who's the biblical model for that?
SPEAKER_01Thanks for the question. Uh the uh the D stands for dominant, and uh there there is a particular lens that that uh the dominant uh uh people uh look through and and and operate in, and that is very task-oriented to get things done very, very quickly. And uh there they they really enjoy a challenge. In other words, do something nobody else has even thought about doing. And then now your question was what is a biblical character? That biblical character, the apostle Paul. Now, what was a challenge that God gave or Christ gave Paul to present the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles? Now, was that a challenge? Was anybody even thinking about that? No, no, and then once he got his, you know, his redirection, of course, he's trying to kill the church, and then of course he met Christ on the road to Damascus, and and within Acts 9, there's there's that strategy there. But to answer your question, dominant styles like a challenge. Is presenting the gospel of Jesus Christ politically correct in the Jewish culture? No. No, you don't even go into the house, right? Right, right. You don't even go there. What would you what are you thinking? And and and Paul says, that's what I'm thinking because I got to direct it from the Lord, you know. One of the one of the big things that I want to tell you, and and and what uh what I'm talking about here, Darren, is I studied, and I'm gonna talk secular now. I'm talking about secular insight into the way Paul thinks. The way he thought was to look at a system and see the flaw in that system and redirect it into a new way of thinking. And and and and what the Jewish communities are, the way you become right with God is to keep the law, right? I mean, that's what you do. And he says, no, no, no, no, no. And if you look into Galatians, you look into Romans, you say, no, the law's purpose is to show it's good. There's nothing wrong with the law, but it shows that you don't keep it. You don't keep it. So there's got to be another way. Let me tell you who that is. It's the it's the death on the cross by Jesus Christ for your sins. That was, if you look at Galatians, that's that's his defense, that is his treatise. By the way, the people that that do well with Paul's profile are lawyers. They are the most argumentative people you can think of. And you you don't want to argue with them unless you're working on humility, you know. Thanks for laughing. They are good at at debating, and they're also going ahead, if you ask them the questions, you can go ahead and and and they will give you this is where your flaw in thinking is, and this is what you not want to do. Now, what were Paul's letters about? What were they about? Problems in the church and what he did. Of course, the last thing you want to do is go ahead and throw that guy in jail because he will write letters on you, you know, which is exactly what he did. You know, and there are always questions about this and that, and and and they're just wonderful about that. And we have so fortunately, we have so many of his letters talking about problems within the church, problems about relationships and so forth, and and they're just wonderful. So God knew what he was doing. He he picked Paul to go ahead and and do that kind of thing, to go ahead and reach a group of people that the culture, the Jewish culture wouldn't go ahead and do. So let's let can we go to to to the eye?
SPEAKER_00The eye, let's see.
SPEAKER_01The eye. Again, well, you know, I kind of uh talked about that, and and and in that culture, in that first century culture, uh, you know, there people were basically illiterate, you know, and and the only way you went in and could it, you told stories. I mean, you told stories, and there is no better storyteller than than an eye. There is none. There is none that is better than that. Okay. Okay. So there you have Peter. And what you what you have is uh uh his ability to communicate uh is out outstanding. I mean, it's just just really outstanding. And he played a very, very critical role. Uh he's got an eye uh influencing, persuasive style to him, but he's also got some domina to him. So when he speaks, he speaks with an incredible authority, and sometimes it's accurate with what he says. Now that's meant to be humorous too, but sometimes. But but there there are two uh occasions where he really came to bat, and they're both in the book of Acts, and in that he he went ahead and and in Acts 15 stood behind Paul, uh Paul in saying, How are you saved? And it's by faith in Christ, period. And that was a very, very strong, dynamic type of uh uh uh intense conversation in Acts 15, where they're with counsel and defending the thing is faith by Christ alone. And so that that was great. But I'm gonna go into the all into the Gospels. There was there was a statement where Jesus asked the disciples directly, he says, Who do you say that I am? You know, and of course Peter you know came out of the heart of Christ, the Son of the Living God, and and he was affirmed by that. So that ability to go ahead and communicate with authority and confidence is an amazing thing. I mean, it really is. So that that's your eye. Um you want to go to the S? The S. Yeah, okay. Uh the S is called steadiness, and it it is the that particular style is uh really, really concerned with family unity, family um uh nurturing and so forth. And they really uh make some of the best models of um uh uh of projecting unconditional love. And uh it doesn't mean that the others don't have it, but this one has got a just a very affirming style to them, and it's interesting who God picked for that. He picked a person called Abraham, and Abraham uh uh his particular style was both steadiness and influencing, has the best ability to go ahead and communicate unconditional love. Well, what was his role? To be the mother, model of father of all nations. Isn't that interesting? You know, that he would pick, and and he gets a lot of heat too because, hey, he lied about his wife, didn't he? Yeah, he did. But you have to understand they don't like conflict, and they will do that, and they have feet of clay, there's no question about that. But what I do, Darren, is I look at what is the skill set and what possibly could be the model that we need to emulate, and that is the projection. If we're a parent, the projecting of unconditional love, and that's our model. It love that isn't that good. Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_00And and that's and that's where most of the if I remember correctly, the majority of the population would be in that S quadrup direction.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and like I say, one of the key uh traits of that is to maintaining harmony. Now, could that possibly be important? Yeah, thank God. Particularly in the family. Is that is that important? Absolutely. And and the and the other thing that's with that style is the follow-through, the ability to hang in there. Now, do teenagers have issues? Could they possibly go in different directions? You know, him we're again trying to. But you gotta you gotta stay the course. You've got to hang in there, you know, uh, and and that and that and that projection of unconditional love is is critical. Uh then um are are we ready to go ahead and go to the Cowboy C the C is is um uh they are very task-oriented. Uh however, their lens is different because what they do is they want to do things exactly right. And what you what you have with that style is that ability to ask questions. You always know the C's because they will go ahead. When you come up with something, they'll have a question, and you answer the question, and they'll have a follow-up question, and you answer that question, they'll have a follow-up question. And they get they get a lot of bad press because they say, well, they're just negative all the time. No, they're that that you can see it that way, or you can say they're trying to validate the information to be absolutely true. Now, if you were going to go ahead and give a series of commandments to a group of people that you want communicated exactly right, who would you choose? Exactly. Absolutely, absolutely. And they have a lens to go ahead and say, if you're missing the mark, I'm gonna tell you about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And as I study the Old Testament, most of the prophets were high seas. And what was their message? You're missing the mark. What was the response? They killed them. You know, they didn't like the message. But what were they saying was accurate? Absolutely. And we need so desperately need them, need the seas to tell us, but we also need to affirm them that they're not negative. They're telling us something where we're missing the mark and we need to do correction. And okay. And so you have to understand the role and basically respect each one of the styles. Now, right now, so who's our model for the seed? Oh, it's Moses. Oh, it's Moses. Oh, it's Moses, it's Moses. I mean, I mean, I mean, if you go Exodus three and four, are there any questions there? The uh this I'm gonna tell you something really important, and mm mm most people don't understand it the first time they hear it, but but I'm telling you, it's it's it's very important. Is you have to understand when you're talking to a high see that he's going to go. Or she is going to ask a lot of questions. And the flaw that most people make is that, okay, if I give you enough information, you can make a decision. The answer is no, they can't. They can't make a decision once they hear it for the first time. And if you if you study Moses and you look at that conversation, at the end of the conversation between the way God did it, which is absolutely perfect, what did Moses do? His answer was, Lord, send somebody else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Send somebody else. And and what what happened, what is strategic about that is when they stop asking questions, you respect the fact that they need time to process. And most people don't understand that. That they've got to process time, and then, this is important, they have to ask somebody else. And it's not about your presentation, it is about allowing them time to process and validate from a second source. And that's exactly what he did. He went and talked to his father-in-law, Jethro, and he says, What do you think about this idea? Going back over, brother said, I think it's okay. Not a whole lot of conversation, and then Moses went. It is very critical. You have to always work in a triangle. And I wish, and this is this is the weakness of our conversation, I'm just talking to it. It's a verbal conversation, and I have to draw it out for you with an actual triangle. So let's say you've got to respect a triangle. I'm drawing a triangle with my hands, but you can't see that, Darren. You can't see you cannot see that. But I'm telling you, you've got to understand it's a triangle. You get information, understand you're going to get turned down, respect the process time, let them talk to a third source or a second source. Now, this is what I always tell people who are having all kinds of problems with high C's. It says, What what is my role when they stop asking questions? This is what you say. I know that you need time to process, and I give you permission to talk to somebody else. You've got to say that. And if you can't, they're always going to say, Well, is it okay that I talk to somebody else? You've got to give them permission. So that if I'm giving you information, that's what's critical here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they need a they need a lot of empathy, don't they?
SPEAKER_01Uh absolutely. And another word that I can give you, you gave you gave me a good word, empathy. The other one that you need is assurance. They have to have information with assurance. So that's the the and now, do high C's ever marry high I's? Does that ever happen? All the time. All the time. Sure. Do high D's ever marry high S's? All the time. You know, type of thing. And they find out this difference in the thinking process, and then they they come, we have irreconcilable differences because of the way we think. But God intended for us to go ahead and be interdependent of one another so that we have balance. We are imbalanced creatures, and the only way that we can go ahead and create balance is to have somebody different than us that is also committed to Christ or have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit to go ahead and work this thing out without the Holy Spirit. We got no chance on this thing. Yeah. We got so now go ahead.
SPEAKER_00So, what what's your advice to business professionals, maybe business owners, managers, leaders out there that uh maybe this is somewhat new to them, or maybe they've they've heard this before, but they're not really taking it into consideration on a daily basis, and even a moment-by-moment basis. Uh what would you say to them is really the importance of this?
SPEAKER_01Uh understand what you can do. Have a clear idea of your individual unique giftedness. Number one. Number two, understand what you don't do well. And hire people to go ahead and do those jobs that you don't want to do, that just stress you out. And that requires you to under have some basic understanding of where do I look for that kind of giftedness to complement who I am. And then once you do that and staff to your weakness or staff to your limitations, figure out how to manage that kind of person. That's what this tool does. I mean, it really gives you, it make gives you wisdom to know what you can do well or validate what you do well, and then understand what you don't do well, and figure out how you go, you can go ahead and staff to that. And it's all about team building. If you if you go ahead and go hire people just like you, one of you is not necessary. It's it really aren't. You've got to go ahead and staff to diversity. And when you staff to diversity and figure out what you've got something going here, you can you can have that uh that checks and balances, but it's also you have to have a value system that everybody uh has bought into. And there is no value system that is greater than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Period. Amen. Period. And and uh, you know, and when when I go into secular, and I do a lot of this, uh, you know, secular stuff, I you know, the I I I do use a disk model, you know, to do that team building and to understand what you do well, and I I do all that, but it it it's not as good as it could be. And and and so what I always wait for opportunities to go ahead and and bring in that that that spiritual dimension when given permission to go ahead and do that. But but the I don't know how a company can go ahead and be really successful without understanding their most important resource, and that's their people. You've got to understand your people, and you've got to understand how you put your teams together, and you've got to understand how you can go ahead and communicate and bring bring that empathy and understanding and affirmation to to understand each person and get the best. Bring their A game. What I always do when I go into businesses, I have a mission statement that's secular. Let me tell you what it is. Help you enjoy your job. That's my job, is to help you enjoy your job. And and and if you're not enjoying your job, let's talk about what I can do to help you enjoy your job, you know, type of deal. And and and they kind of most people are kind of back at this point, you know, you're not just an expert trying to tell me what to do. I said, no. I I am your I am your servant to help you go ahead and enjoy your job. And they they're kind of taken back by that. You know, I'm working for you. You tell me how to go ahead and do that. And um, you know, so so so those are the those are the things and how to do use the tool secular, you know. I hope I've said something intelligent here, Darren, you know, to tell you how you can use a tool, but uh, I'm always back to you know the the spiritual dimension here. I mean it's it's it's absolutely critical to really make it work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean it's just just overall uh going about our day and appreciating the differences among people, and and maybe if somebody uh is is a manager, is a leader in in that company or that organization, uh they do need to do some sort of assessment like this, um whether it be yours or or another one, a lot of great ones out there um to be able to appreciate and have that understanding. I mean, you they probably already have observed many of those differences, but just really haven't. I mean, I I I had an encounter with a previous leader, and I was I I've taken a lot of these types of assessments and and kind of have a good working knowledge of this, but uh evidently he did not. And and so I even brought it up one time, I said, you know, we have different styles, and and and that's okay. And what I'm trying to do is adapt to yours. And he it was like he had never heard this idea that he has a particular style. Wow. And and he was almost offended by the idea that this is uh this is his style rather than this is just absolutely the right way to approach the world and tasks and and everything. And and granted, you know, he was my boss at the time, right? Um, but but there just needs to be more of an understanding of those differences because people can feel terrible about themselves, you know, by the lack of validation, the lack of understanding that they're not gonna do it your way every single time. And it they certainly aren't gonna default to that. And and so it's so important to appreciate that. I mean, certainly would show up in the hiring process. I would think that you'd probably want to have a C type person doing the interviews, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh uh, you know, when I when I go ahead and and work in that, I I say when you're interviewing uh uh a particular position and you have different people, I said you want a C to do an interview, you want an I to do an interview, you want an S to do an interview, or you you know, get a little bit of a mix here because you're gonna ask different questions. Well when I when I when I do this and I and and I'm and I'm working with with a secular company, I will go ahead and say, okay, I want I want at least uh three people to do the interviewing process, and let me give you the questions you need to be asking, you know, type of thing, independently, you know, and I give them give them those those those those those questions to go ahead and ask, and then come together and say, okay, what did you find out? What did you find out? Because you're gonna get a different feel for that. Certainly you want the C input because everybody, you know, they're very detailed in what they want to go ahead and do, you know, type of thing. But but depending on on the role, you you you know, if if you're in a marketing position, you you you need i skills. I'm sorry. You know, you're we're not uh we're not asking accounting questions, Terrence. You know, and so and so you you you kind of got a feel for that. But the other thing that I do, which I need to mention here, is we actually go ahead and do what we call a role assessment. And that role assessment is a disk assessment, but what it does is not a person. It's asking, what do you see, how do you see the skills you need for the job? And so what you do is you get you you come up with a job description based on skills. And and and you can come up with an actual profile of that. And and so so you've got an idea what kind of skills you're looking for. You know, I mean, before you hire anybody, you've got to be sure what skills you need. And we we do that. And and and and the way we come up with that is a minimum of three people, and I prefer four. Now, let me tell you who the people are to come up with that. Number one, a person who's been in the job, and a person who supervised the job, and a person who has supported the job. So you get a three you get a 360 kind of review of in, out, above. And and and and it's amazing how people see the job differently. And then you get those three people together and you say, okay, where do you disagree and why do you disagree? And I give permission to disagree because that gets good, good, a good dialogue. But they independently come up with a profile of the job, then we look at it, and then we bring them together and come up with a a um role assessment based on skills. And then as we interview people, then we say, okay, you we do not use that tool to disqualify people. We use that tool to understand and put a proper um uh perception of their ability to function in that role and know where their training needs to be rather than wait six months and do a performance review and say you're missing in this particular area. You know before you hire them what they can do and what they can't do and what you need to train them to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Beautiful. I'm so glad you mentioned mentioned all that. Where can people get a hold of your assessments and learn more about you and and the consulting services that you offer?
SPEAKER_01Okay. What what I do is uh in in fact, this is uh this interesting. This this particular month, we have an online assessment. It's called the Biblical Behavior Assessment that it that is going to uh you know become operational where they can go ahead and take it right online. And uh I I do not yet have all the links for it. Oh my, what a word, links to a computer. But I I would like to provide that information for you. Uh if people want to just email me, um my email uh address is krvogus v O-G-E-S at AOL.com, and I will be happy to go ahead and and um you know answer any questions as to what I do, and and they can you know go online to my website is uh it's uh uh www. inhisgraceinc.com, and uh they can go ahead and get some information on me there too. So um do you need a phone call? Excellent.
SPEAKER_00Do you need a phone? Yeah, well, I think that's perfect. You know, with the with the website, people can link up to you there and see some of the other assessments that you have available and the things that you're doing for companies and organizations, and uh, and certainly your books are available there as well. Um, well, this is uh it's been a great conversation, Ken, and uh it's fascinating to think about uh the the different ways that God has made each person and just how all of that works together. I mean, that's that's that's both the joy and the the struggle, the pain that we have sometimes in our organizations is navigating those different styles and approaches. But I think when we have that, first of all, that appreciation for how God has just made everybody so unique, uh that can really open up just a world of of opportunities.
SPEAKER_01Can I just say one more little thing here? Okay.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Okay. One of the questions when what will the always comes up is uh the question, okay, you did all these biblical characters, what was Jesus' style? And and I said, okay, I'm gonna give you a secular answer and then I'll tell you about Jesus, and it's a it's a it's a it's a 30-second deal. The secular model that suggests how you know what makes a good leader. A good leader is one who understands the need of any person that comes in their sphere of influence and and changes changes their behavior to meet the need of the situation. Jesus did it the best. Yeah. Jesus did it the best. He he changed his behavior all the time. And that's what a good leader needs to know is they can change their behavior to meet the need of the situation. And Jesus did it the best. So I'd like to end it there.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful, beautiful. So we're not locked into if you're a D, that doesn't mean you just need to dominate people all the time. But you can you can adapt, you can be more empathetic, you can um be more conscientious, and uh all of those, all of those different things because uh I mean Jesus is the complete the complete person, and uh and if we have and he's willing to empower us with whatever whatever the need uh requires, as you just uh stated so so beautifully. So uh well Ken, thank you. Uh thank you once again. Uh it's been a great conversation. Uh, podcast on I think that's a good idea.