Welcome back to the Theology of Business podcast. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, author of The Marketplace Christian and Marketing Like Jesus. And this is the show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God in business, to transform the marketplace, and make an impact in eternity. The tickets for the upcoming Faith at Works Summit on October the 27th through the 29th in Dallas, Texas are pretty much sold out, but they just announced a live streaming option for a suggested donation of only $30. So that is an absolute steal. I think the last final ticket price for this was about $279. So for a suggested donation of $30 to be able to get access to this online is pretty incredible. Just go to the event registration page and click tickets at fwsummit.org. The $30 option is not gonna be available, it's not gonna be visible right there on the screen when you go on, but just click tickets and then that'll take you through to the purchase page and you'll see two different options there. And at this conference, over 400 leaders from churches, businesses, and academia will gather to learn, discuss, and work together to extend Christ's transforming presence and help Christians find eternal purpose in the workplace. And again, go to fwsummit.org to get signed up for that, or you can just contact me through theology at business.com or on social media, and I'll be sure to help you get connected. Well, it's been almost one year since my most recent book came out, The Marketplace Christian, a practical guide to using your spiritual gifts in business. And if you've read it, you know that I featured 23 examples of individual marketplace Christians who have demonstrated what it looks like to use each of the 23 spiritual gifts in a for-profit business setting. There are a lot of different gifts assessments out there, but these were the 23 that I really settled on. But based on what I see uh playing out in the marketplace, what I see in the scripture, there were 23, everything from administration uh to teaching to all different sorts of gifts. And but one of those spiritual gifts is the gift of worship. And the marketplace Christian that I featured for that gift was Shay Bynes, who is our guest on the show today. She's been a past guest, she's been a wonderful uh friend and colleague in this faith and work movement. Shay is the host of the Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur Podcast and is founder and chief fire igniter of KDE's community of entrepreneurs. She's the author of several books, including at least one bestseller. How many bestsellers do you have, Shay?
SPEAKER_03I think there's four now.
SPEAKER_01Four. Awesome, awesome. Well, KDE's mission is to activate a community of entrepreneurs that will demonstrate the power, presence, passion, and purity of God in the marketplace. So you can even see her gift of worship we working its way into the way that, you know, the copywriting, you know, she's worshiping God in her copywriting. I love it. Uh so we're gonna talk about her gift of worship, uh, which you can also read about in the book. But the main reason that I invited her on the show today is because, like many other groups of Christian business professionals around the world, she's been using this book as part of the curriculum and her membership community, uh, known as kingdom-driven entrepreneur. And so I wanted to share with our theology and business community uh more examples of what it looks like to use spiritual gifts in the business world. And by the way, spiritual gifts are are really discipleship tools. That's another phrase that you could use because I know people come from different denominational backgrounds, and maybe they have certain uh images or methods that come up in their mind when they hear the term spiritual gifts, but but ultimately they are discipleship tools for helping the people around us to look more like Jesus. And and so we really need a larger vision for what marketplace ministry can look like in our own personal workplaces. And uh, based on the way the Lord has built his church, this requires an entire body with many parts to fulfill his great commission across the world. So uh without further ado, welcome back to the Theology of Business Podcast, Shay. Thanks, Darren. Great to be here. Well, tell us um more about Kingdom-driven entrepreneur and what your gift of worship looks like in your business.
SPEAKER_03Sure. So um, as you mentioned earlier, you know, the mission is to activate a community of entrepreneurs that will demonstrate the power, the presence, the passion, and the purity of God in the marketplace. And what that looks like for KDE is kind of like two core objectives to meet that mission. Uh, one of those is really all about facilitating divine connection and collaboration. And so we have a number of ways we do that, uh, both online as well as offline. Uh, and then the second aspect of what we do is really more of kind of the activation. That's like the equipping, the teaching, the mentoring, really to inspire entrepreneurs to take risks out in the marketplace that are led by the Holy Spirit, because it's through those risks that we take that we see the kingdom of God increase. So we do that through our podcasts, we do that through, you know, our Igniter's mentoring program, yeah, Firestarter School, Kingdom Assignment Discovery. So we've got all types of programs that help support that objective towards the mission as well. But it's all about just getting entrepreneurs out there, um, you know, getting them really in touch with who they are in Christ, uh, fully embracing that in its fullness in the marketplace and just, you know, go out there and do business supernaturally.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And Shay, you're really setting the example of what it looks like to use your spiritual gifts in the business world. So, so I've featured your gift of worship in the book, but tell us kind of what that looks like in your business with Kingdom-driven entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_03Sure. It has been such a uh key component to what I've done in business with um Kingdom-driven LLC, which is the name of the company. Um really in everything that I do, but I know I think I talked about this aspect in the book, which was as an author, you know, I write a number of books and I also do a number of teachings, you know, where I have to prepare those teachings ahead of time and those types of things. And what I have found is that without worship, I don't do those things well at all. Right. So what I found is that even in the writing space, I always I call, I always say that I only write with my Holy Ghost writer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, a little bit.
SPEAKER_03And what that looks like for me is, you know, I had to find the time, find the times of day that worked, and usually it's it's actually right in the middle of the night, that works for me when I'm really like just I'm very aware of his presence. It's almost like communicating, you know, it's communicating back and forth and and writing in that way. And it comes with such grace and ease, you know, when I do it that way. Um, generally speaking, and um what I do in business, I'll just stop. Sometimes, like if things are getting like a little bit nutty or if I'm starting to feel, you know, tension, you know, I stop right in the middle of whatever I'm doing just for own personal worship session, right? Just to get my mind back right, to get back to peace, you know, um, to move forward. But it's that, it's been it's such a key key part. I don't sing on a worship team at church or anything like that. You know, I'm not even the best singer in the world, but um, you know, I I feel like I would look at work as worship. It's not always singing, it's sometimes listening to music, it's many times not. Um, you know, it just it looks different. I never even really thought about the fact that that was that was a spiritual gift, really, until I took your assist assessment. It's just something that I just did. I just lived it out.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's such a great example of why I created this assessment and why I wrote this book. Uh, because in in spiritual gifts assessments that I've taken in the past, uh, typically one of the three questions that will be asked, you're, you know, they're asking you to rate yourself on a scale of one to five or one to ten, whatever it is. Uh, one of the three that will be used to identify whether or not you have the gift of worship or not, they'll say things like, uh, on a scale of one to ten, um, how uh how how good is your singing voice or something like that? Or like how much do you how much do you enjoy playing musical instruments? Right. Uh as if that's the the heart of worship.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's just it's not. I mean, that's an as an expression, it's an expression of worship, but it's not the heart of worship.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And so, so that's really what I try to do with these gifts is let's let's strip away sort of the the churchianity and look at the heart of what the gift is. So the way that I the definition I settled on for this particular gift is the gift of worship is the special ability to spread the awareness of God's glory by being keenly aware of the presence, majesty, and goodness of God and to invoke God's presence into one's daily life. And so in this case, it's in the business world. And I mean, as I mentioned just a little bit ago, the way that you have even put worshiping God into the into your copywriting for your for your company. And whenever I hear you uh open up your podcast episodes, what do you say? You say that what we're trying to do is to help people to partner in business with an awesome and limitless God. Yes. So, so you know, I say that, you know, I help leaders partner with God in business, but I I I didn't go the step further to bring in those those attributes of worship. You know, I feel kind of bad about myself, but but but see, that's the gift of worship in action. Yeah. So you really ought not to feel bad about yourself. No. Maybe a certain gift isn't as pronounced. Like, you know, if I don't have the gift of evangelism and you know, I feel bad because my coworkers, the one that's going around and you know, inviting people out to lunch just so he can share his testimony and lead people to the Lord every day. Yes, you know, like ultimately it's about discipleship, it's about revealing Jesus. And so these are just 23 different ways that the Holy Spirit has given to the church in order to fulfill this great commission. And and so I just I I love that. Um so now let's get to some uh some other examples, and and people can read in more detail about your specific gift of worship there in the book. Um, but for the kingdom-driven entrepreneurs, are these kind of early stage entrepreneurs, are they later stage entrepreneurs, and what what sorts of industries are they involved in?
SPEAKER_03Sure. So it's really a mix. We have a very diverse uh community. I would say that um many, the largest segment of people in kingdom-driven entrepreneur are people who are in business. Um, they've been in business maybe even for several years. And in many instances, they're not to the point in business where they're feeling like I'm fully supporting myself, you know, and my family through this through this business. But they've been at it for, but they've been at it for maybe four or five or six years, that type of thing. That would be probably the largest segment. Uh, we have a small segment of people who haven't started but started business yet, but they feel like the Lord's called them the business. And then we have another segment on the other side, which is people who are just really thriving financially in business, you know, doing well, growing. Some of them were attracted to the community because they're like, you know, I really haven't been doing this in partnership with God. I've been doing this and I've been tired, you know, or someone who's like, no, I have been doing this thing in partnership with God, and I want to be around other people who are or at least have a heart too as well. So we have such a diverse, such a diverse group. Even in our igniter's mentoring program, when I think about the people who come in the program, they still go across the gamut. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_01So, what sorts of industries are they in?
SPEAKER_03So a lot of different industries. So we have some. Um, I can tell you that the most active and engaged ones, and maybe it's based off of the nature of the work that they do, but are the people who are consultants, uh, coach, teacher types. Um, those are the most vocal people in the community. But we also have people who, you know, they have baking businesses, you know. We've got a gentleman who, you know, he has, you know, like seven locations of us, maybe nine now, like nine franchise locations of a, you know, of a chicken restaurant. You know, we've got we've got people who are therapists, you know, that, you know, we have so we have a mix of kind of like the online entrepreneurs, you know, focused mostly on online stuff. And then we have, you know, plenty of people who are kind of the brick and mortar. But I think by nature of their businesses, they're less engaged online because they're spending less time online.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, see, I mean, that that's another uh principle there that you tend to attract who you are and not always necessarily who you want. And and and like Jesus said, that when a student is fully trained, he will become like his teacher. So what is Shay? She's a teacher, you know, and she's a worshiper. And so I think if we were to look at a lot of the members of the community, you I'm sure there's a uh diversity, but a a common thread would, I'm almost positive, that they would be people with the heart of a teacher and that are worshipers of the Lord.
SPEAKER_03And encouragers, which is like my next top um gift was in encouragement and then leadership and encouragement. I mean, I think every single person in the Igniters program had encouragement in their top three. It was funny.
SPEAKER_01So, why did you pick this book, The Marketplace Christian, uh, to include it as part of the curriculum and also this spiritual gifts in the marketplace assessment?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's a really important book. Um, it's it's because not only are we talking about, you know, some of the basic principles about, you know, what it really looks like to be a Christian in the marketplace, to be kingdom focused um in what you're doing in the marketplace, but to break down each of those gifts and seeing how they play out. I mean, even a lot of times people just look at things like, well, how do these play out in the church? You know, for them to be able to see this is what this looks like in a very practical way in business is powerful. And so what I have found is that, you know, I had a couple aha moments myself as I read the book, and I knew that that there was going to be a lot of those and those who I serve through KDE. And that's definitely been the case. Um, I've taken, gosh, I've taken quite a few people through it so far, maybe 50, 60, maybe more people so far. And um lots more to come through the mentor, you know, through mentoring. And so uh it's been, it's just been awesome. It's been awesome, and everybody likes it. It resonates with every single person.
SPEAKER_01That's so awesome. So, what are maybe some examples of people that had some of those aha moments?
SPEAKER_03Sure. So I think one of the biggest aha moments that I've seen come up multiple times has been in the area of this gift of pastoring. This has come up in a, you know, with multiple people in the program where they were like, okay, this came up and I'm and and I was confused. You know, they took the assessment and they were confused because they're thinking my thought was that pastoring was like, you know, I pastoring a church and I've I've never, that's never, that's not on my radar at all. And and this book was so great for them because they were able to look at pastor from a different perspective and realize that, oh wow, I can embrace that. Because some of them they knew that was on the inside, right? But because of the perspective that it's only this, they couldn't really embrace that and what they did in the marketplace, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, it was almost like a fight against it. And so it was like a relief for many to read the book, see that, and say, okay, this makes sense. You know, this makes sense. And I can see how either I have been or how I can embrace this and what I do. For example, one of those, uh, just off the top of my head, a few of the people who had that come up, they were people like one of them was a therapist and a counselor, like a family therapist, right? And she was just like, Pastor, you know. Not me. But it really, it really helped her to see what that looks like. And she was like, you know what? I can totally see how this flows through my role as a therapist and as a counselor, right? Um, one of them was someone who owns a publishing company, right? And she also helps people do ghost, you know, she ghostwrites books.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, um, there's a lot of that she could she does with a client that even falls into that heart of pastoring that she has. Right. Right. Um, I think another one was a coach. She was a coach, she was a business coach or a business and a life empowerment coach or something like that. So it's it was just really interesting to see um the diversity of the types of businesses people had and them having that gift and wondering and them being able to now see where it fits in.
SPEAKER_01Right. I mean, the the gift of pastoring is the special ability to spread the awareness of God's glory through caring consistently for the personal needs of others through personalized counseling and coaching. And and what you'll find is that many of our the people that we've given the title pastor, uh it's it's really just kind of become part of church culture to to label him or her as pastor, when oftentimes mm, maybe he or she has more of a uh administrative gift, if they're like a megachurch pastor, gift of leadership, um gift of faith. Um, but but oftentimes they don't even have the gift of pastoring um in this shepherding sense, which really is is the is the biblical sense. Like they're not doing counseling and coaching, you know, they're they hire somebody else to do that.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01You know, there's a church counselor for that, you know. They they're they're more of sort of the CEO role in and so often when we look at the way that our local churches operate, we can be so misled about about spiritual gifts. And and and it's just been a lack of of education and and really a weak theology of business and a theology of of work, uh, to think that pastoring is something that your pastor does. And that um and and so when the spiritual gifts assessments are taken, we want to find out where you where can you volunteer in our church for two hours a week or something, something like that. That's exactly right. And rather than how can we activate you to use that gift out in your workplace, which is where you spend, you know, 60 to 70 percent of your waking hours. So um, but that that's again, I think that kind of goes back to how a lot of your members are are coaches, you know, our are counselors, they may be business coaches. Um, and and such a huge part of that is is the pastoring. I mean, you you just gotta love people, you gotta um you you you have to be, I mean, people are wired that way to just want to spend that one-on-one coaching time with people. Yes. And I I can't say that that's one of my most prominent gifts. Um but but we absolutely and and I don't beat myself up about it either.
SPEAKER_03That's right. I think that's that's important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Ever since I, you know, the Lord revealed to me about spiritual gifts and that, you know, you ought not to beat yourself because we're a body and there's varieties of gifts. So maybe what are some of the other aha moments that that folks have had?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so this one was interesting too. Um, one of the women, the same woman that I told you about who has a publishing company and does ghostwriting and that type of thing, she had taken multiple spiritual gift assessments in the past. Okay. So she wasn't, I mean, even when she saw it, she loved the book, but even when she, you know, even when it was kind of taking the assessment, she had told me later that she was really glad that she didn't kind of disregard it because she had taken so many before. Because one of the things that happened as she took it is that hospitality stood out. And she said when she saw hospitality, she was like, hospitality?
SPEAKER_02Because in her mind, hospitality is like I'm an usher, you know, like okay, I'm ushering somebody, I'm an usher at church, or you know, or I'm the one who's bringing, you know, bringing food to people at church, or you know, the host, I'm a hostess at church, or whatever like that.
SPEAKER_03And she re and she said that it has, when she realized what that meant, she was really able to say, Wow, I can now I can em fully embrace this now that I understand what this is. Because she saw the seed of that already in her, right? And now she's like, now I can fully embrace that and fully express that, you know, unapologetically, right? So that was one that came out that I thought was really. Fun. I did notice that another one that's been great was one of the gentlemen, the one I told you who has the multiple um franchise, he has a lot of franchise restaurants. And one of his top ones came up as faith. It was like faith, teaching, and encouragement. And he was saying that that that's he wasn't surprised at all by those response, those responses, those being his top ones, because just the nature of what he does in business, he's like, man, you know, with like nine locations, over a hundred employees, you know, plans for like another 41 locations.
SPEAKER_02He is constantly in this position of acquiring land, building a store, arranging financing, doing all these types of things that are really not for the um, not for the week, the week, right?
SPEAKER_03It's like he's he's he said that gift of faith. He's like, I recognize that that gift of faith is what's been um has helped me to do some really tough stuff and go through some really tough decision-making things and being able to do some things that maybe from the outside don't even make sense. But because I'm really felt I'm I'm able to take this thing, step out on faith, really feeling like I'm led by the Holy Spirit to do it and move forward. He's like, I have opportunities for faith every day, multiple times a day, because there's so many working parts. You know, he even owns the construction company that does the construction on the new restaurants, right? So he is he's involved in so many aspects and so many things. And so that gift of faith has been really key for him and his ability to do that. And then he said the teaching and encouragement made so much sense because he has all these employees in the management team, and he's focused on training, motivating, you know. That's something that he just has to do on a regular basis, and it comes naturally to him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, that that faith really is it's what opens up vision for people. And you know, see Peter Wagner, he was the one that really pioneered kind of the gifts move, the spiritual gifts movement in a lot of ways in churches in terms of the spiritual gifts assessment and all of that. And you know, his book, Spiritual Gifts Can Help Your Church Grow, that's kind of where the idea began that it's about using them in the context of your local church, not as extensions of the local church. Um he did end up writing a book about the church in the workplace where um he kind of introduced the idea that that God is is up to things out in the workplace, um, but didn't really get into the way that gifts might be uh a part of that. Um, but but one of the things that he did say in the book uh uh is about megachurch pastors that they can almost um determine whether or not how big a church is going to be based on whether or not uh the megachurch pastor or the church pastor has um has two specific gifts. They studied all these megachurch pastors and found that they had two gifts in common almost every time. It was faith and leadership, leadership and uh because you can have leadership, but without the without the faith component, where and you know, some of us our businesses are just gonna be small, you know what I mean? That's right. And don't beat yourself up about that, right?
SPEAKER_02There's nothing wrong with that at all, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, and and uh and because that can be kind of a frustrating thing, you know, when you look around at you know, so and so who's got this this massive kingdom business that's you know, you know, Ken Eldred.
SPEAKER_02Yes, $400 million. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Like I'm not, you know, why can't I be Ken Eldred? Well, maybe you don't have a gift of faith. Yes. Um you have faith, but people have this just you know, enormous ability to to have a vision and to just go after it. That's right. It's just totally humanly impossible, anyhow.
SPEAKER_03So and I think it's it and I think that um people will get it twisted because they're thinking as an entrepreneur, that's something that you know everyone has to have that. And it's like, well, you know, everyone has we all have to have faith. We all have a measure of it, right? We all have to have faith, but it's just that some it's just they've got that gift and that and that's and that's gonna show through and and what they're able to do in the marketplace. And there's and that's and it's wonderful, right? Yeah, it's good. So no one has to beat themselves up because they because that's not them, but we all have faith, right? We have faith. We have measure and and measure and measure.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Because you know, Ken Eldred is reaching it is not reaching the people that you're able to reach, exactly, you know, with your you know, kind of small non-employer business, uh, you know, uh and and and and so just rest in the calling that God is. Maybe you are gonna be a one-man, one woman company where you're coaching others, right? You know, maybe that's what God has called you to do according to, but that's where I think it's so important to know what your gifts are. And to, as you have used the phrase several times uh since our chat today, to rest in that.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01And uh I just I love I love that phrase. Um any other aha moments come to mind?
SPEAKER_03Let's see. Any other big ones? Um there was uh there was another person who was delighted to see miracles fall on on hers. And she's um she's somebody who's you know how there's some people who were just so bold, like that, like it could be like anybody. You're like at Starbucks, yeah, and you see someone in the line at Starbucks, and you're just like, Can I pray for you? You know, you know, you know, not everybody does that, right? Right. Some people, you know, and she's like that kind of person who's just like she can be going about her business, doing whatever she does in business, and she'll just feel like the Lord's like, you know, pray with that person or talk to that person or do that with that person, lay your hands on that person, you know, that type of thing. And it's just, and and she does it with ease.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03It's it's it's some it's something that you know we should all get comfortable with, you know, to hear the Holy Spirit and to respond. But for some people, it's just it comes with such ease, yeah, because it's a gift, right? And so she was delighted to see that because she has she's seen it in small ways so far, but she's believing God to see it in some major, major ways. And so when she saw that, it was almost like that rose that's like it was it was able to kind of raise her faith level for that, you know, to see to see that and to see what that looks like and to really go and take even greater risk.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love that. Yeah. How about for you? What what were maybe some other kind of surprising uh things that actually I want to go back to what you were just saying about the gift of of miracles and or heathen healing would fall into that category. Yeah, gift of healing, gift of miracles. Um again, let's not beat ourselves up that we don't have the same gift mix. I mean, definitely if there's something that God has put on your heart, yes, where that it's not sort of like uh condemning sort of a thing, but like there's a reason why. And I think that's where for so many of us it began is with that desire to grow in a certain area. Yes, and and where God begins to develop that gift. You know, we may have gifts that have just kind of gone untapped, uh, or we just haven't we haven't realized it for whatever reason. And or maybe because we see that, okay, this person has a a quote unquote healing ministry. Yes. They're traveling around the world and um you know, they're there people are people are coming and you know, leaving their wheelchairs and walkers at the front thing. I mean, praise God, praise God for that. But maybe for you it might look might look a little bit different. Um that's right.
SPEAKER_03You know, maybe you know, I had this experience, um, kind of going back to what even led me to say it, say what I said and how I said it was uh, you know, in terms of this whole like, we should all be comfortable with following the leading of the Holy Spirit, but we don't all have a gift in that area, is a personal experience that I had where, you know, this is not, this would be very, very low. That one was very, very low on my list. Okay. But even though it's really low on my list, I have had more than one instance where I'll give you a specific example. There was one time when I was at uh we were looking for a car for my husband, and we were at the place, and the guy who came out um to help us with the car was limping. Okay. And he was limping, he came out. I went, you know, I didn't think anything one way or the other about it. But I really felt on my heart like I was supposed to ask him about his leg and pray for him. Okay. And so I now this again, this is this is outside of my comfort zone, way out, way outside of my comfort zone. And so I did ask him about his leg as part of conversation, you know. And then my husband, who's a massage therapist, he, you know, he immediately kind of started talking to him about, you know, some therapeutic type things. So then I'm feeling like I'm off the hook, Darren. Like, okay, well, you know, my husband's talking to him now, and you know, whatever. But I really felt like the Lord was like, do it, you know? And I actually didn't do it. I was so it's like I was so scared to do it, you know, um, right there at the car lot, even though it was like I was feeling compelled to, even though I naturally wouldn't have that, it's it's not a natural thing for me, yeah, you know, but it was like I was being compelled to. And I when I left, I had I actually I felt terrible because I didn't do it. And the only spirit said to me, like, no, you know, don't it was it was very loving. It wasn't like it wasn't like a condemnation or anything like that, but it was just like a trust me that you hear me. Trust me that you hear me and do it, right? Even though it's uncomfortable. And ever since that instance, the Lord has stretched me in some areas where I'm not gifted, it's not like a gift in that area, but he'll lead me in a particular way. And it's almost just like a just, you know, will you respond to me? Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I mean, we're gonna be held accountable for the gifts that we have. And but but when there are those that maybe you haven't laid hands on somebody and seen them recover. Um for example, um, the guy that I featured in the book actually uh is on the worship team. Oh don't you love that phrase worship team?
SPEAKER_02Uh we should all be on it, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Um, let me be more specific. One of the guys up front singing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so his name is his name is Daniel Gill. And for anyone who's listening that watches the show Ninja Warrior, he's uh just a very bold Christian on the show and has done really well. Uh this he did well last season. He just had the fastest uh qualifying time, like in the Oklahoma City qualifier or whatever that was on TV. And um I mean, like most people don't even finish the course, but he got the fastest time. But one of his gifts is is healing as well. And I mean, you can imagine a ninja warrior that you know, these guys are and and and women are jumping over, you know, jumping into bars and you know, flipping around. And I'm like, how do they not like how does Daniel not get hurt more than he gets hurt? Like it just so these they're getting you know backaches and ankle sprains, and and so he's he has seen so many healing miracles just by seeing his hurting competitors and just going up and be like, hey man, can I pray for you? I love it, and just they'll experience healing on the spot. He has countless stories of of that happening, and um you know, but but that's one of his most prominent prominent gifts.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we have a um a friend of mine, his name is Dave. He goes by praying medic, he's written a ton of books, um, and he's a paramedic, you know, and with this gift for healing, I had another guy that I'm gonna be uh Jesse Berkey, he's a firefighter paramedic, gift of healing. And it's just like as they're out in the marketplace doing their thing as medics, as firefighter, firefighters, etc., but just the Lord gives them these opportunities and they see people healed in ambulances for you know, hospital transport from one place to the other, persons healed in the trans, you know, in the process of being transported from one hospital to the other or from the home that they pick them up to the place. You know, I mean, Jesse's is seen like you know, someone who was clinically dead raised from praying for them. I mean, it's just wow, it's wild stuff. But it's like that's but they they have the um they have that as a gift, and they also have the faith that that the you know that faith that comes with that gift. Yeah, right. You know, and it's and it's amazing, and I love hearing those stories. And it's just going back to this whole idea that that we're a um we're a body. My heart is always that, you know, I I recognize that I'm gonna flow most prominently in the gifts that got that God's given me, and I'm and I'm aw and I'm perfectly happy with that. But I always want to be responsive. I never want to be closed off to other things thinking that I cannot do those when the Holy Spirit leads you to do something, because if that's the case, I don't need to be able to do it. He's got it.
SPEAKER_02Obviously, I'm just a I'm just a I'm just a vessel of the moment, right? I'm the vessel of the moment, but you can do anything.
SPEAKER_03So if you're leading and guiding me, I want to always be responsive to, I want to, you know, reflect your heart and be responsive to, you know, where you're leading me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Even in the uncomfortable spaces.
SPEAKER_01Do you find that that most of your members that are taking this assessment are already kind of operating in a because there's certain assignments. So there's the gift, but then there's the assignment where, you know, for for example, healing. If um if my job is or my assignment is specifically like uh administrative work or something like that, it might not be as readily apparent how that uh kind of interfaces in that area. Certainly, I mean there's sick people, there's hurting people everywhere, absolutely. But in, for example, Ninja Warrior or out in the medical field, there's there seems to be more of a uh uh of a synergy or a convergence um with with the gift. Do you find that that your folks are already kind of in that convergence or that they're there's they start to make a shift when they discover their gifts?
SPEAKER_03It's really both, Darren, because uh because the nature of the way Igniter's mentoring program is and people are coming in at various, you know, and various things. I mean, some people, some people are coming in and it's like they take that assessment, they've never even taken an assessment before. They're like, oh wow, this is really great. And it's opening up new, new things for them that they haven't been walking out, but now they're like, wow, they're almost like now I'm looking for opportunities to integrate this, right? Um, we have some that fall into that category. We have others that it served as confirmation for them and also built their faith to do even greater things within that. Um, and then we have some who it's just like, man, they've been flowing in it. So they were just, I mean, completely not surprised. I think of one of them, she's I mean, I've experienced her myself on many occasions, so I I can confirm her highly, highly accurate prophetic gifting. And it's something that she really struggled with for years to integrate. She does a lot of coaching. And she struggled with integrating that in what she did because she was very concerned that people would be like, oh, so, oh, so you charging me for a word. You know, you charge, you charge, you charging me to give me a word. Or they, you know, she was very concerned about it. She's like, this feels like, you know, and she operated in a ministry, you know, she had a ministry off to the side, and then she had her business, and it was very tough for her because it was like, so she almost was like, I was shutting the spout off. You know, she'd be talking to people and the Lord would be telling her some stuff, but it was like, you know, she was trying to figure out how do I do this? Yeah, how do I do this? Because she was so concerned about someone on the other side. And she had, she had, she'd had some experiences that led her to this fear, you know, where people are like, well, they're feeling like, well, that's minute, that was ministry. And why are you charging me for it? You know? So it was almost like she had turned off the spout, right? And in going through this process, it really helped her to just really re-engage with it and really just allow it to flow. And I tell you, I mean, when I tell you, she operates powerfully, you know, um, and it's awesome because now she does it unapologetically. She even integrates that within her website, the fact that there's a, you know, that she that there's that gifting that kind of comes along with it. Like she's just completely wide open about it now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's allowed her to do it without, like completely unapologetically. And because of that, the results, um, she's way more fruitful in her results.
SPEAKER_01I I'm so glad you brought that up. I mean, because uh another part of our deficiency and our theology of business is that if you're charging for it, it's not ministry. Because if it was ministry, you wouldn't be charging for it. And and yeah, probably there's there's some, I guess, expressions of gifts that uh are not um like they don't exactly create economic value in a in a certain culture. Um or or or that I shouldn't say that they don't, but they don't create maybe as much in a culture as, for example, like a gift of leadership um or or administration or something, something like that. You know, for example, like uh a prophetic gift, but that I mean, there's just so many, that's how we need more examples of what the of what this looks like. I mean, because you know, I've got an example again, another guy in my church, um, that uh there was uh a safety hazard in his workplace that nobody was responding to because nobody saw the danger in it, and the Lord gave him a prophetic word that somebody's gonna get hurt if you don't do something about this. And so he had to elevate it and and just through that prophetic word ended up saving the guy's life. Wow. Um, and in the process. And I mean, how much is that worth?
SPEAKER_03How much economic value is a dollar sign on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, and it's the same thing with her, like, you know, in a in I kind of in a coaching capacity, it's like she's by sharing the heart of God concerning somebody. I mean, it's talk about emotional healing, talk about breakthrough, talk about you know, really important things that are a part of a process, yeah, you know, for someone to go through for them to get to whatever that next level it is for them. And so when you're speaking life like that, you know, it's it's you can't put a price tag on that. You got people who bound up with all kinds of stuff. And one dog on phone call with her, it's like it's like they have a deliverance session on the phone.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah. I mean, and then and if if you can't um if if you can't charge, if you can't get paid financially for doing ministry, what are people who are getting paid doing? Like, if it's not ministry, what is it?
SPEAKER_02What are we doing?
SPEAKER_01You know, like if it's it, you know, if you're like how is what I do in helping authors or you know, what you do helping uh business owners, or you know what uh what anybody does in the marketplace, like how could that not be ministry if it's serving people, if it's uh you know, if it's if it's helping people in a God-honoring sort of a way, how is that not ministry? And so we just need to like totally rethink and revamp what we had thought about what is okay and and not okay to charge for.
SPEAKER_03And the thing is, it's it's it's kind of like a twofold thing, Darren, because it's like sometimes it's our own mindset that creates an issue, right? And then there's the reality of people even on a customer side who may bring issues up with certain things, you know, in certain, you know, in certain instances, right? So people have to kind of stand firm on it. So it's like if you've already gotten through all the head junk and you have the right perspective on it, then you can't allow perception of a handful of people to move you, you know, right from what you know is the right way to go, that you know is the right approach. You know, I mean, how how much of a shame would it be to turn certain things off or turn this off or not do this or shut this down or whatever simply because there's a handful of people who are gonna be offended.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And and so much of that is it's just cultural. Yeah, religious cultural Christianity. Yeah. It's not it's not biblical. That's right. Um you know, and it is some of it is not necessarily like um. It's just it I I think it is the Corinthian problem where you know there's sort of this hierarchy of of gifts. Yes. And and it's exactly why Paul said, I don't want you to be ignorant about spiritual gifts. There have been there's been still been a lot of ignorance, you know. He didn't totally clear it all up for us. And and so that's what we're trying to do is help people to understand because you know, you're in church for maybe two hours a week. Yeah. Um, if you know, regular church attendance is defined as attends two times a month. So all those church statistics, it's just that they showed up to two services an entire month. Wow. Where are you spending the majority of your waking hours? For 85% of the Christian workforce, it's in a for-profit company. 60 to 70 percent of their waking hours. So, Shay, this is uh I could just go on and on with this conversation. It's a hot topic. It's this really great one to talk about. But but tell us where can uh where can people find you and then maybe leave us with a parting piece of advice.
SPEAKER_03Sure. So uh best place because it leads you to everything else would be our website, which is at kingdomdriven entrepreneur.com.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. And how about that parting piece of advice?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I just want to really encourage, first of all, if you have not picked this book up, pick the book up.
SPEAKER_02I mean, so number one, if you have not purchased this book yet and read it, pick it up and read it.
SPEAKER_03And in fact, I encourage you to not only pick it up and read it for yourself, but even have somebody else who you're gonna read it along with and kind of exchange notes on it, right? You know, make it make it kind of a partner experience. But really, just what I want to say is just to really encourage everyone to um really embrace this. I mean, we're talking about, I mean, if we're only gonna do business with what we can do in our own strength and our own knowledge and our own this, then man, what are we doing?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03Let's fully embrace, you know, um what God has for us, what we have access to, you know, as his sons, his daughters, as his friends, right? Let's fully take advantage of that um and live full out because it's not just for the benefit of you, but it's gonna be the benefit for for so many people and in many cases uh an impact that is generations to come. So I just encourage everyone to uh really fully, fully embrace a full expression of who you are in Christ and what you're doing in business.
SPEAKER_01Well, I couldn't agree more, Shay. Thank you so much for coming on today to share your coming back on the show today. And uh looking forward to having you again soon and just hearing more and more stories about what God is doing through your group, and may just God continue to bless uh your work with Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur and bless all of those who are a part of your membership community, your books, and everybody definitely go subscribe as I do to the Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Leave for a review for the for the show. And uh thanks again, Shay.
SPEAKER_03Thanks so much, Darren.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening today, and I hope you've enjoyed the episode. We'd love to hear your feedback at theologyofbusiness.com where you can get more information about marketplace ministry, spiritual gifts in the marketplace, marketing like Jesus, and Christ-centered leadership and entrepreneurship. And as a reminder, the tickets for the Faith at Works Summit in Dallas are sold out. That summit is happening October the 27th through the 29th. But they just announced this live streaming option, which is an incredible deal. You can stream this event for a suggested donation of just $30. Go to the event registration page at fwsummit.org and click tickets. And once you go through to that final purchase page, you'll be able to see the two different options for the live stream and for the regular admission, which is somewhere around $280 last time I checked. So for a suggested donation of $30, it's pretty incredible. It's gonna be a great conference, fwsummit.org. Definitely go and check it out. Thanks for listening and keep partnering with God in your business.