Welcome to the Christianity Business Podcast. I'm your host here and help Christian business leaders to integrate local values into business. Get more information about HPU's Center for Christianity and Business, including the Christian Business Review Academic Journal, articles, videos, and news about upcoming events by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. And now, on to today's interview. Today we're going to be discussing the topic of leading when you're not in charge. And we're joined by leadership and organizational consultant Mike Bonham. Mike has served as an executive pastor, a senior manager with McKenzie and Company, which is, of course, one of the world's leading management consulting firms, and also in senior leadership roles in two environmental service companies. He's the author or co-author of three books, including In Pursuit of Great and Godly Leadership, Leading from the Second Chair, and Leading Congregational Change. And actually, his newest book that we're going to be kind of focusing on today is Thriving in the Second Chair. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Mike.
SPEAKER_02Thanks a lot, Darren. It's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00So your newest book, Thriving in the Second Chair, which comes out September the 22nd, right? That's right. So this is a book for leaders, but more so it's focused on the leader's relationship with his or her boss. And should also mention here that Mike really focuses, he certainly has uh an extensive business background, as I just talked about in the introduction, but uh but he's taking a lot, he's really focusing on leadership in the church. But of course, these principles that are working for, I mean, some of the most incredible organizations are institutional churches. And there's so much that businesses and Christian business leaders can learn from that. And so we're gonna be talking about some transferable principles today. Um, but starting off, Mike, tell us why did you write this book?
SPEAKER_02So, as you mentioned, Darren, one of my earlier books is called Leading from the Second Chair. That book came out about 10 years ago. Uh, and it was also focused on uh folks who are in significant leadership roles, but not that first chair role, not the uh not the senior leadership role in uh churches and ministry settings primarily. And and what happened in the time since that book came out uh is that I've had countless conversations, it seems like, with uh people in second chair roles, often in ministry settings, but sometimes in business settings as well, uh, and realized there was just a lot that I have learned during that time and a lot that was not in that earlier book. And a couple of years ago I started mulling that over and decided there wasn't there was enough uh new material and enough new uh insights that I picked up that I wanted to put it together into this new book, Thriving in the Second Chair. And and as you said, it's it's geared uh for primarily for an audience uh in second chair roles in churches and in ministry settings, but the vast majority of the principles that we talk about are readily transferable to uh to to folks that are in other kinds of uh leadership settings, certainly in the for-profit in the business world as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So more on a personal level, what what what was kind of motivating you uh and and what has made you so passionate about this topic? Because you know, you've you've written uh about uh being in a in an executive pastor role, which, you know, for those who aren't aware, of course you got your senior pastor, and then you have the executive pastor, which really is more of kind of the business manager for the church. You know, what were some of those uh experiences or maybe even one particular uh encounter that might come to mind uh that that kind of motivated you to write this?
SPEAKER_02I would say two things. One is I served in that kind of role for 11 years and realized uh that there were very, very few resources available for people uh that specifically talked about the unique dynamics of being in that kind of second chair role. Uh the other is that uh for the past almost well, I guess, past eight years now, uh I've been doing coaching with groups of executive pastors. And so just hearing their stories and seeing some of the the real joys they have, but also the struggles they have um really motivated me to create another resource that would be helpful for for folks in that kind of role again, realizing that there's just not that much out there uh that addresses those unique challenges.
SPEAKER_00Right. So for these leaders that are in the second chair, which if I'm not mistaken, that's coming from um kind of an orchestral and and bands have uh you know, first chair, second chair, third chair. Is that where the metaphor comes from?
SPEAKER_02We we use that as yeah, that that's that was I think part of in in that earlier book leading from the second chair, part of what uh we had in mind in in that language.
SPEAKER_00Got it. So so is it written with a certain personality type in mind? Because you know, you've got your kind of dominant drivers, and so if that if if that's my personality and I am in that executive role, or you know, maybe um, you know, I'm I'm in middle management, or it's some some level of the organization where I'm not kind of the the top of the top of the heap, so to speak, um, you know, that's gonna be more difficult, I think, than somebody that's just naturally kind of kind of that if if we're looking at the DISC assessment, like somebody that's in that S category, that's just naturally gonna be more supportive. Do you find that uh that this is more difficult for some than others?
SPEAKER_02What I find is that there's all different personality types in the second chair. It it may it is more difficult uh for some than for others. Uh but you know, I'm I'm reminded of something that Jim Collins said in Good to Great, where he talked about the the less effective leaders, tend first chair leaders, CEOs tended to use a model of a genius with a thousand helpers. Uh, in other words, kind of one, you know, one smart person running the organization. I just need my minions to go and do whatever I ask them to do. And he said that doesn't work very well uh in a corporate setting. It doesn't work very well in a church setting either. Uh and so I come at this whole area of second chair leadership with a pretty strong disposition that second chair leaders need to have leadership gifts and they need to use those gifts, otherwise they they um they get frustrated and their organizations, whether again, whether that's a church or a business, fall short of their potential. Uh and so somebody that's that's just the real kind of submissive, you know, as you said, S-type on the on the disc profile, um, might not be the best second chair leader. Now, somebody that's a strong D and has a lot of drive uh will have times when they're frustrated, uh, when you know they want to go in one direction and the boss says, no, we're not gonna be able to do that. Um, but but I still think you need those strong leadership gifts and and temperament to be able to do well in a second chair role.
SPEAKER_00So there are 10 principles that you talk about in the book. Um, what would be the first one you would want to focus on? We're not gonna have time to talk about all of them, but what what's the first strategy? Let's say that I'm a I'm a kind of D dominant type personality, and I'm in that second chair role in my company, um, and I'm I'm working for a boss who you know is has a similar temperament, but just a different style, different, you know, maybe some different trying to take things in a different direction. You know, what would you say to that person, some of those principles?
SPEAKER_02So um, you know, you you said at the start that the book focuses a lot on the relationship between that that boss and subordinate between first and second chair. Uh, and that certainly there's a lot more beyond that, but if you ask me the first thing I would talk about, it would have to be that. And and the principle we talk that I talk about is the idea of growing toward a partnership. Uh, one of the problems that I find that sometimes creeps up in those relationships is that uh a person is promoted into that into a second share role uh or is hired into that kind of role, and they're told, you know, you know, think kind of in classic business language, you know, new COO comes in or someone is promoted to become the the chief operating officer, and the CEO says, Look, I'm gonna focus on um our shareholders and the external environment uh and setting some broad strategy, and I really need you to run the organization for us. And the COO takes that at face value, says, Great, I'm you know, that's what I do well. I want to run the organization. And then all of a sudden they're frustrated because they're not really being treated as a partner. And and what I found is that, and I I think this is just as true in business as in ministry settings, it takes a long time to develop a trust-based partnership. And so the the principle is is to work to grow towards a partnership. Don't assume it at the very first. Don't throw up your hands in exasperation when on you know your second week on the job, uh, you're not really living into what you consider to be a partnership. You don't have as much authority or responsibility as you would like to have. Um, but but but to to intentionally grow that relationship and grow that partnership to to where it can be uh a really healthy uh trust-based partnership.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, excellent. You know, Mike, the other day, it was about two days ago, I was taking my dog out for a walk, and I couldn't help but notice that it looked like on the curb the ground was moving. And I looked closer and it was a colony of leaf cutter ants that were that were carrying leaves. I mean, these things can carry, I researched it afterwards, they can carry like 5,000 times their body weight. Wow. And they were carrying these leaves together. I mean, they were not deviating from their course whatsoever, um, but for about 25 yards from point A to point B to get those leaves back to, you know, where they needed to go. Uh, but it just, you know, these are not comp like mentally complex, I wouldn't think, um, creatures. I mean, they know what their role is and they they work together. There's nobody necessarily saying go here, go there. Um, but it was just such a picture, uh, it was it made such an impression on me. I said, I asked my wife to come out and take a look, like four hours later, they were still doing the same tasks. I mean, working together to get those leaves where they needed to go. And and, you know, what are some other ways that maybe uh a second chair leader can kind of have that mindset that it's not about me, it's not about the the CEO or the senior pastor, it's about the the mission. You know, how how can what is what's another principle that can help us to get there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that you know, another one of the the practices principles that we talk that I talk about in the book is to think and act strategically. And the idea there is that the person in the second chair role uh has a significant influence on the organization. And and again, this is whether you're COO of a large corporation, whether you're uh a number two or one of the number two people in uh say it the division of a of a company that's you know, and so your scope of responsibility is much smaller. The principles are still the same, and that is that uh that you take a big um kind of high-level vision and you have to unpack and say, so how are we gonna move from point A to point B? Um and so just like the ants that you were talking about, uh, the second chair often is the one who has to to figure out all the different steps that need to be put in place, all the different uh members of a team that need to be working together and what their different roles should be uh to make that happen. And so that idea of thinking strategically, really connecting with the the vision and understanding what that means, and then being able to act to that doesn't mean the second chair does all of the acting, but uh to get the different parts moving uh in the right direction, I think is is incredibly important.
SPEAKER_00There's another principle that you talked about clarifying your role. And I I know that this has been, you know, something that has been a challenge for me in the past. You know, I run my own company now, but at a at a previous or really every organization I've worked in um previous to this had had this experience of having a kind of a cloudy, you know, job title, um, so to speak. Um well, not that the title wasn't cloudy, but the responsibilities that came along with that were not always uh incredibly clear. And of course, you know, I'm I'm uh I've got an entrepreneurial spirit, so I tend to go and find things to do that aren't even within that realm of responsibilities. So what would you say to somebody when it comes to this principle of clarifying your role?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I appreciate you bringing that up because that that's one of the places where uh the analogy of the ants probably breaks down. Those ants know uh exactly what their role is.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_02And there's not a lot of variation or deviation, as you said, in that. Folks in second chair roles, uh, they might have a detailed job description, they might have a real, you know, they might or might not have that kind of uh clarity given to them, but these second chair roles tend to morph a lot over time, they tend to evolve. And um and and you know, the the last line in some job descriptions, I know this is very common in in second chairs and ministry settings, is and all other duties is may be assigned.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And and you know what what I've come to to see is that a lot of the second chair roles, that's really uh functionally, that's the most important part of the job description.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's not all the different bullet points that got written down. It's the I'm available to to do whatever is needed to help to move our organization forward. And so that in and of itself introduces an enormous amount of ambiguity or uncertainty in the role. Uh, and and so the advice to folks that are living in that kind of um ambiguity and the tension that may come along with it is first just realize that that's not abnormal and you will probably never have um absolute clarity, you know, nailing down every detail about what your role is. Um but then the other advice is be willing to talk with your boss about it. If there are places where you're really not sure do I have this authority or not, talk to them about it. Uh if there's some places where uh you know high-level vision is not clear, talk to them about it so that you can be clear about what you're supposed to be doing. Um if there are places where you're feeling tension because you've been given uh a lot where there are a lot of expectations, but you don't have the authority to match up to it, then have that kind of conversation. Um because the very best second chair leaders that I know, their roles are constantly changing. And the only way you deal with that is to have a certain amount of flexibility in your own spirit and a lot of great communication with your boss.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Do you think uh and I found this uh to be somewhat effective in my personal experience, but you you worked with a lot more, many more organizations than I have, but but when it comes to clarifying your role, is it helpful to go to your boss and find out what is it that we are measuring of that that I'm responsible for? Because then I can really focus on those couple of metrics or it and if you're trying to measure too many things, I mean I I think it was Peter Drucker that said you measure what you treasure. So what's what's really important in my day-to-day responsibilities? Yeah, definitely if if there's trash on the ground in the in the office building or in the parking lot, I need to pick that up. But you know, it's not in the job description, but but once I get into the office, you know, what is the main thing that I'm responsible for? Do you think it's helpful to kind of have that conversation?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Uh lack of clarity about organizational goals and personal goals is uh I mean it it's a it's a killer. Uh it it it damages morale, it leads to a lot of wasted effort, it you know, creates confusion within the organization. So you should absolutely have that conversation. And I would take it one step fur fur further and say that uh there will be some cases where the boss may not really have a good answer to the question. So if that's the case, you know, propose a measurement. Propose, okay, so if if you don't have a real good idea of what we ought to be measuring, you know, then can I give you an idea of what I think would be most effective? Um, you know, can um you know, we want to have a great workforce. Uh so how are we gonna how are we gonna decide whether we're doing that? Well, I don't know. Well, okay, so would employ turnover be a good measure? Um would you know so you know, get creative about that and and propose something if your boss doesn't have a ready answer for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I mean they don't always come from, I mean, that was something that was very commonplace when I was served in the Air Force. I mean, we tracked, you know, we knew what our metrics were. There were metrics meetings and meetings about the metrics meetings, and and and so once a month, you knew that you're you were gonna have to present the status of what was going on in your unit. And it wasn't gonna be 50 different things, it was gonna be one or two slides to show the overall health of of what was happening. Um, because if that number starts to go down or that number starts to go up, you know you have a problem. And so, you know, being able to I and I can see executive pastors really being able to help senior pastors in that way where they often, I mean, I went to seminary, they don't teach tracking things in in seminary. Um, and so being able to kind of bring in some of those best you know practices from business, I could see being very helpful. Absolutely. Yeah. So do you find that one of the other uh challenges that I that I had in working for a boss is is differing style, work, you know, kind of leadership styles. Um, you know, how do you and when I when I brought this up with a a previous boss, the the the response was was he basically was communicating to me that I don't have a style that it it this is this is just what we need to do, you know what I mean? Like it it which objectively is just not is was just not true, right? You know what I mean? Right. It was just his way of going about things. If you put 10 different leaders in that situation, they're gonna do probably 10 different things, but they don't always see it that way. How do you help a a first chair understand that look, you have a style, I have a style, here here's the difference between the two, and let's maybe do a SWOT analysis about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I the a couple of things come to mind. I tell second chairs uh that I work with all the time, you have to be a student of your first chair. You you need to learn kind of how they tick, what what you need to learn their style and so it it at as trivial, at as small of a level as possible. So uh what is their preferred way of receiving information? Uh do they do they prefer for you to just whenever you have something to pop in? Do they prefer you to email? Do they prefer you to meet with them just in a real structured way once a week and have a list of what you're gonna talk to them about? Do they want to see that list in advance? Those are all little nuances and every first chair is gonna have different ways of responding to that. Uh are they uh real relational or are they more task-oriented? Uh, if they're relational, then you know, plan on spending the first five or ten minutes of a meeting catching up on how's your family or you know, what'd you do this weekend, or you know, things like that. If they're task oriented, they don't want any of that that small talk. Uh and and so second second chairs need to pay attention to that with with their first year leaders. And then they the the companion, the second piece of advice that I give with that is recognize. That the relationship will be asymmetrical. And what I mean by that is it's really nice when your boss is just as much of a student of you as you are of them, when they can learn your style just as much as you're learning theirs, and they will flex and adapt some to who you are, but you can't require that of them. You can't tell them, well, you need to learn my style because I'm learning yours, uh, because they're the boss. Yeah. And so if we can kind of get out of the mindset of thinking that um this relationship has to be symmetrical, and I can accept that it's going to be somewhat asymmetrical, I'm going to be a lot better off in dealing with some of those differences. And then the third thing that I would say is if there's something in particular that is really causing you in that second chair role to have difficulties relating to your boss, talk to him about it. So if you know, if you feel like your boss just doesn't care about you at all as a person because they're so task-oriented and so driven, and and and it's gone beyond just a uh I have a personal preference, but it's really affecting my ability to work, then talk to him about that. So, you know, I I I feel like I'm almost invisible to you as a person. I'm just a cog and a machine. Now, there's probably a more tactful way to say that than what I just did, but but if it's a big issue to the to you where it's affecting your ability to relate and to work, then you need to bring that up.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. What would be one of your your most important pieces of advice to to the first chairs that are listening when it comes to uh navigating this working relationship with their second chair?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that um making and I I I want to focus this really specifically on um their relationship with with one second chair, or maybe they've got a couple of people. So this is so you know, you can have uh I I see this with uh say a pastor who might have two or three direct reports, but then has you know 20 other people on staff in the church. And they think, well, I need to spend time with everybody. Well, yeah, you do, but you really need to spend time with those direct reports, or if you just have one executive pastor, you really need to spend the time with them. Uh and so the one of the biggest pieces of advice I would I offer to first chairs is invest in that relationship with the second chair because the the more that they understand who you are as a first chair, the more they understand how you tick, the more, the c more clearly they understand where we're trying to go as an organization, the better they're going to be able to function in their second chair role. Uh and and and you know, vice versa, the less they understand that, uh, the harder it is going to be for them to be that that partner who makes things happen for you.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Great advice. So as a parting piece of advice to the kind of circling back to the to the second chairs, um, what would you say to to encourage them?
SPEAKER_02Gosh, there's so so much. Um you know, one of the later chapters in the book uh talks about how lonely the second chair role can be. And some of that may be unique to the kind of executive pastor role in a church. And yet I don't think that it's completely uh, you know, I think there are parallels in business settings as well. Uh we can get we can get in in almost any kind of work environment, we can get into this place where we feel really isolated, uh, where uh you know we know that that it's not appropriate to uh say if we're having particularly if we're having some frustrations with uh with the boss, it's not appropriate to um talk with our uh peers, our colleagues about it. I mean that that starts to move into insubordination and kind of subversive action. That's really not a good thing to do. Uh if there if the boss has a boss, you know, it should be a last resort to go around the boss to talk to somebody else or or to talk to the say the board, uh, you know, a board member about you know the problems that we're having. So who do we talk to? And you know, the the the truth is a lot of times people don't talk to anybody. And they sit and they stew on it and and they become more resentful or more frustrated. Uh and so that that whole chapter of overcoming loneliness is about finding other people often outside of the organization, but people who might have kind of similar work responsibilities, uh, and certainly similar worldviews, some, you know, Christian worldview who uh you can you can have some companionship with and who will get to know you well enough that you know they may look at you once and say, you know what, you're not giving your boss uh you know the the credit that he or she is due. You know, it it and you know, maybe the part part of the problem is you. And and at other times we'll listen to you and say, well, here's a different strategy you might try to work this problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Fantastic advice. And I think that's a good segue into telling us where people can learn more about you because you offer that sort of support, but but specifically for executive pastors, do you also work with business leaders?
SPEAKER_02I do. I I I have a uh it's a relatively small portion of what I do, but I do um coaching work with um folks in all kinds of different leadership roles. So ministry and business leaders. Uh, and the best way to find that is, you know, the book's gonna be on Amazon. Um, and the best way to find me is just through my website, which is Mike Bonham, B-O-N-E-M.com.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's gonna be a tremendous encouragement to to everyone who reads it, and because it's so many of us, even if you are uh you are you are the CEO, you are the owner of the company. A lot of times you've got shareholders, you've got boards, you've got people that you answer to, and and so this is gonna be a great encouragement to you. And the book will be out September the 22nd on Amazon, right? And and certainly go to mikebonham.com, get on that email list, that way you can hear about what's what's happening. But you know, ultimately, if we're in that second chair situation, we have a first chair that we're that we're working for. Ultimately, like Colossians 3.23 says, we're working for the Lord. Um, it's the Lord Christ whom we serve. And that really will make us the best second chair that we could possibly be when we have that understanding that look, I'm not just working for this senior pastor or this CEO. I'm working for the Lord ultimately. Absolutely, Mike, thank you for sharing your time and valuable expertise. And may God continue to bless your consulting company and this book and uh everything you're doing to help executive pastors, to help uh leaders to serve the Lord and their organizations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks so much, Darren. I appreciate that and appreciate the opportunity to be on this podcast with you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HPU's Center for Christianity and Business at Christianity in Business.com. Thanks for listening and keep integrating biblical values into your business.