Now, on to the day.
SPEAKER_01Today we're going to be discussing the topic of the importance of Bible-based counsel in business. And we're joined by Lane Kramer, who is the president of the CEO Institute. He's also been a blogger, contributing a blogger to the Christianity in Business blog. But the CEO Institute that he leads is a Dallas-based company that helps senior Christian business leaders to grow high performance businesses in a biblically consistent way. And you can go and check out CEO I-N S T, as in CEO Institute. C E O I N S T dot com to get more information about that. We'll remind you that link at the end. It'll be in the show notes as well. But it's just an incredible organization. I got to sit in on a couple of meetings and actually present some uh some material to these business leaders, but very uh very high octane, um, very um effective leaders out there in the marketplace, and he's doing incredible work. Lane, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Good to be with you, Darren.
SPEAKER_01Well, tell us a bit more about your background and what led you to start the CEO Institute.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sure. Uh just briefly started out my uh career as a commercial banker with two downtown Dallas commercial banks and uh found out two things. One, I kind of had a heart to serve the small to mid-size uh business owner as opposed to corporate CEOs or corporate CFOs, in essence, helping Main Street company owners to grow their companies. And then I found out I had a real desire to help um provide practical skill-based training to executives to really equip them to uh literally learn how to run their businesses better. So um kind of a combination of education and consulting and counseling, and then a little later in the development of the institute, kind of a faith focus to it.
SPEAKER_01And so so you kind of started off doing some standard uh business coaching. There's a lot of organizations that do that sort of thing, but then at some point you you really felt led to involve more of a faith component. What was that transition like and how was it received?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think about 12 years into the CEO Institute, the Fizz started going out of the Pepsi, and um the baby turned ugly. The business baby was starting to turn ugly, and I didn't know what was uh causing uh me to kind of lose interest in the CEO Institute, but finally um through some, I think, well, God's hand, uh he showed me uh a better menu or purpose for the CEO Institute besides just helping people to make more money, and that was to help them be spiritually significant at work and mine spiritual riches through their company so that they could be purposeful, significant, and help God's kingdom grow. So um I met a gentleman in Tampa, Florida in the early 2000s that was the founder of the C12 group, Buck Jacobs, and and kind of saw how he was teaching mentoring uh Christian CEOs in Tampa on how to really be intentional about living their faith out in their business. And uh I came back to Dallas thinking that he had a better uh mousetrap than I did, uh, and so we added the faith component to the secular approach that we had been following, and I think the members have greatly benefited from that strategic shift over the last 12 to 13 years.
SPEAKER_01So now these are not startup entrepreneurs. I mean, these are seasoned veterans in the in the marketplace. What what size companies are are you are these CEOs representing typically?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they usually have 10 to 500 employees, probably most in the 25 to 50 employee range, you know, kind of the 5 million to 25 million dollar range is where many of them are. Some are far larger than that, but uh typically you know, $100 million of revenue or less, down to maybe uh a couple million dollars.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and so these are Christian CEOs, and and they're not they're not only interested in you know growing their profits, but they they really want to honor the Lord with their businesses. And and so from that standpoint, what would you say are some of the most common issues that these business owners are facing?
SPEAKER_02Well, um, you know, uh in today's economy, most businesses in Texas's Texas are doing quite well, financially prosperous and growing. And um I think the temptation is to forget uh uh to remember that God is the one that really allows our businesses to be successful. Um there's a verse in the Bible that talks about God gives us the ability to create wealth, and so we need to remember that behind our success is his grace and his um you know love and mercy, and we don't really we're not self-made people, we're God-made people. So it's just real easy in today's successful economy to lose sight of the fact that God is really the one that is ultimately responsible for our good business results. Um I think another um difficulty all business owners have, to include Christian business owners, is that when we experience a problem at work, the first thing we do is go back to our Harvard Business School training uh or you know, our our our our college undergraduate degree to say, well, what did the professor teach us about this marketing problem or um this financial problem and try to work it out in a spreadsheet? And um you know the best consultant in the world is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And so the really wise approach to solving a problem is to go to him first and say, Lord, how would you have me to solve this problem? Would you give me the resources, the knowledge, the wisdom, the understanding how to figure this out and determine a course of action that pleases you at the end of the day? So what I'm saying is that business owners can think that they have to do it all by themselves, they have to figure it out, they have to do it all, and they're bypassing the best consultant in the world when they take that approach and they forget that God can cut through a problem like a hot knife through butter if we ask for his divine help. And I'm not saying every problem is going to be easily solved with God's help. Don't mean that at all. But how much harder we can we labor and stew in our own flesh trying to get things done or accomplished, um, we'd be a lot more effective and successful and significant if we would just bring him into the problem-solving process right up front and acknowledge our dependence on him.
SPEAKER_01Um that's such a critical starting point for seeking wise counsel in business, you know, because like you said, there's there's our business school training, there's uh trade journals, there's the what the latest guru is saying about you know this management strategy and that marketing technique. But to have that, to have that Bible-based, spirit-led component, I mean, that's that's really what you're bringing to these business owners. I mean, God's the one that created business. I like what uh Larry Burkett, I'm I'm paraphrasing. I can't remember the exact words that he said, but but in his book, uh Business by the Book, he said, you know, when you when you have a lack of Christian counselors advising you on your business, it it's not the issue is the lack of spiritual insight. And and because you know that starting point of where we're coming from when we approach a business problem is so critical. You know, are we coming from a like a humanist perspective or from a Bible-based perspective or any number of so I mean like when before these CEOs came to the CEO Institute, I mean, how were they getting that that voice of the Lord? Uh, I mean, apart from just maybe personal reflection with the Lord, I mean, where was that coming from for their business?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I don't know in every case. I think it was kind of a hit or miss proposition. I don't think they got it consistently for the most part. Um they get a steady diet of it at the CEO Institute because we meet in groups each uh one morning a month, and the members provide and guests provide godly counsel to each other on an ongoing basis, and you know, the uh it's iron-sharpening iron. Um where they got it before they came on board with us, you know, they might have had a banker that's a Christian or a an attorney that's a Christian, but very few of them had access to a full palette of other Christian business executives with similar values. So that I think is what they value the most about being a part of our group.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What are some of the main questions as you're facilitating the discussions in these groups? Uh, what are some of those main questions that you encourage your members to wrestle with in order to help them stay accountable to the Lord for how they conduct business?
SPEAKER_02Well, as I said uh to open with, most of our members' companies are doing pretty well financially. That means they're generating a profit and positive cash flow. And so I think the first thing I challenge them with is what are you doing with the profits that God has allowed you to accrue through your business? Are you buying a bigger house? Are you buying another speedboat? Um, are you just taking one more nice vacation? Not that any of those things are bad. However, that's not the only reason God gives us a profit just to spend it on ourselves. And that's a it's a huge blessing to be able to take some of that profit and sow it back into God's kingdom, whether it's in your church, um local missions, international missions, um Samaritan's Purse for one, does great work around the world. There are so many fantastic places to plant seed and see it grow and prosper and uh benefit God's kingdom. That to me, one of the greatest joys of being a business owner is to be a seed planter and a farmer and an investor for God in his kingdom. I look at the assets he's given to me. I'm a steward, but I'm also an investor of what he's given. And he's charged me with investing it the funds. I'm talking about financially, the funds intelligently, not just in financial investments, but in ministry investments, and you know, making sure that money is deployed in people that are good stewards of the funds, folks like the people that run a microfinancial organization like C-Defact and the Alliance Defense Fund. So um, so anyway, sharing their profits, investing their profits, and knowing that they're they're just um, hey, as the Bible says, they're just laying up treasure in heaven that they'll see again someday, and and that's a pretty safe investment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I think another you know issue in terms of um staying accountable to the Lord for the conduct of their business is have they given their close inner circle, their spouse, their business partner, their leadership team. I meet with a group of guys at my church on Friday mornings at 6 30. There's four other guys. They have permission to hold me accountable for my conduct. And, you know, if I if they see things going on in my life, they have permission to point them out to me, speak the truth in love, and and say, hey, Lane, did you know you're doing this? Or this is the way you're coming across, you've got a pride issue. So I think CEOs have got to remain open to have people challenge them, not in a belittling or judgmental way, but in a way to lift them up to say, hey Joe, you know, I see you said this in the company meeting the other day. This is the way it came across. Is that what you meant? You might want to think, rethink your approach to presenting you know that information to our associates because it was construed this way. And and being not being defensive and trying to shut that um godly counsel or rebuke, even a rebuke uh down, but to rather to grow from it and realize God uses other people to speak truth in our lives to help us be more Christ-like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So being open to constructive criticism uh uh from our peers, and then I love what you were saying there.
SPEAKER_01I mean, and and it reminded me of a question that you asked in one of the articles that you wrote for the Christianity and business blog, where you you you were asking something along the lines of would you allow Jesus Christ to take a look at every aspect of your business, you know, your accounting practices, the way you treat your employees, and all of those ins and outs of the of the business. And and and it it's a it's it's a question where we have an answer. Like we've already responded to that in so far as we have or have not allowed people and other brothers and sisters in Christ to come around us and actually look into the issues of our business conduct, you know, and the way that we uh the way that we handle things, the way that we treat people, and and and we have to be deliberate about it. I mean, we have I mean, I just had a meeting, uh, I meet with a group of guys once every two weeks, and we just had a meeting this morning. And I mean that those meetings are just so critical to to know because Jesus is saying, I want to be a part of your business, and how does he do that? It's it's not necessarily like him, you know, coming as uh you know in bodily form, but through his body of believers. I mean, it's the it's it's our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that he's given to us, and he says, I want to be involved in your business, I want to keep you accountable, I want to provide that counsel, and I think that's what you're doing there through the CEO Institute.
SPEAKER_02It is, and then the you know, the final thing I would challenge business owners or Christian business executives to do is just to get still and quiet before the Lord on a daily basis, even, and hold their conduct up before the Lord, um review with him what's going on in the business, and allow him to speak to us if he sees something going on in our company that's not pleasing in his sight, and allow the Holy Spirit to prick our conscience and to bring to our minds what's not what's not going right here, what needs to change, a business practice, a policy, you know, the way we pay our bills, you know, holding on to vendors' money when we, you know, beyond terms just to hold on to money, hold on to their money, and that I mean that's not right in God's sight. So I think he can, you know, mano to mano, just get right in our face nicely, hopefully, uh, and tell us if we're open to his direct counsel in our quiet time, he'll bring things to our mind that need to change or get modified in our business, you know, including business practices but also our own our own conduct, andor things we're not doing uh from a ministry standpoint that we could be doing to be more effective for Christ in our businesses and be more bold in our in our witness, in our um you know, projecting our biblical values out in an unashamed way, not forcing our or certainly not forcing our faith down anybody's throat, but on the other hand, hey, why not start the business meetings with the prayer and ask God's presence into the room before major decisions are made? That's that's an example to me of letting your your faith shine uh in a in a spiritually responsible way, but but letting people know I do believe in God. I he is He is the owner of this business, and we're you know, we're we're gonna depend on Him to figure out the right solutions for discussions and problems in this business. So God can bring to mind things we're not doing to represent Him better, as well as changes that of things we're already doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Is there is there maybe a story, and I know you've got client confidentiality, but but is there a story of maybe a business owner that experienced just a transformation where maybe they they came to the CEO institute just really kind of isolated spiritually? They didn't really have I mean, it's just even being a leader in and of itself uh can be kind of a lonely journey. But then to be a Christian as a leader, uh it's it's very rare that somebody's gonna have a lot of other Christian leaders in their own organization. And so sometimes you really do have to reach out to an organization like CEO Institute. Um but but is there an example of maybe somebody like that where they came and just really experienced a transformation through this sort of accountability that you're talking about?
SPEAKER_02Well, um I've had several members over the years tell me that um through their participation in the monthly faith and business forums, over a period of time, it really transformed the way they looked at their business and operated their business. And um they learned through the CEO Institute what they didn't learn at the Harbor Business School about honoring God in your business. And you know how waves lap up on the shore and they they hit a rock and nothing happens to the rock on the first wave, the second wave, but over time that rock tends to get worn down or even obliterated by the waves. And not that we're trying to obliterate our members, but over time the lapping effect of the knowledge and the wisdom and the biblical insights they get in the monthly sessions, it has a dramatic it can have just a really dramatic impact on the way they look at their business, the way they operate it over a period of time. So um if I had a little more time, I could get a little more specific, but but it's the lapping effect that does it. It's the relational process, not a one-trip pony seminar.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When I was in there uh just for one of those meetings, um one of the members who had been a part of it for a couple of years, I just remember him standing up and just sharing with the group about how there was an issue in his business, and he went back through a lot of the presentations that had been given about that faith and and business integration. Right. And and he just went back through and was just saying that it really helped to kind of uh remind him of the things that he had learned. Yep, and and he went ahead and uh and just applied those things in that particular situation and a positive outcome as a result.
SPEAKER_02Yep, that's that's exactly a good good example.
SPEAKER_01So so what does a typical CEO institute a meeting look like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um well there's about seven or different eight seven or eight different elements to it. We open in a prayer, of course, and then we um typically discuss an article I bring to the table, a devotion, an article that somehow intersects um faith and biblical principles with the way they lead and manage uh their enterprises. And we have robust discussions of those articles and devotions, and it really you know helps center their their minds, our minds, back on what's why we are really there running these companies, and it's more than a business, it's God's business. He has specific ways in mind that he wants us to use in running these companies, and um we we typically don't learn these lessons from sermons and pulpits of church. They this is more of a special purpose type learning where we're we're it's faith application in your hiring practices, your compensation practices, your firing practices, your people growing practices.
SPEAKER_01Um What are some of the biblical uh like the Bible verses and passages that tend to come up in those uh kind of devotional, that devotional portion of the meeting?
SPEAKER_02Well, um the the devotionals and the articles are all over the board. Um I just wrote down one um one article that we discussed over a year ago. I think it was called Is the Is the Gain Worth the Pain? And it was all about God sees everything that we do. We can't hide anything from God. And in fact, Hebrews 4.13, if I can see the little itty-bitty print in my Bible, somebody's been shrinking the print in my Bible. It says, Everything, oh, nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account. And, you know, there's lots of examples of people that, you know, not hopefully in the CEO Institute, but people that cheat on their taxes and you know claim unjustified um expense deductions to lower their income and minimize their taxes. And, you know, maybe it'll survive an IRS audit, maybe it won't, but it doesn't survive God's audit.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And, you know, he sees if our intent is to cheat either the IRS or a creditor or a customer, it it's all laid bare in his sight, and and we're going to suffer, we're gonna reap what we sow ultimately. We don't get away with anything, and so we might as well just kind of do it right the first time and stay clean, yeah, and then go home at night and and and enjoy the blessing of walking in integrity, a clean conscience, going to sleep at night, not worrying about what we told somebody during the day, you know, was it a lie or not? And so I mean there's uh there's uh blessings that come along with with acting out God's principles in our lives, and he says, you know, things will go well with you if you obey my commands.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. So there's the prayer, and then there's the devotional promotion, and then kind of what do you segue into at that point of it of a typical meeting?
SPEAKER_02Well, we have about you know, CEOs and executives are people first and executives second. So we take about 30 minutes out and do intercessory prayer and um um praises. Uh things we call out things that we can praise God for that He's done in our businesses or personal lives, and then you know, we lift up specific things for each other, business-wise or personally. It is the most powerful part of the meeting, I might add, and effectual. Uh, but from there we move into um almost every month. Uh we have uh a skilled guest presenter that's a subject matter expert. We had you speak about marketing principles of Jesus a month or two ago. Um in August, we have uh a guy coming in that's an experienced executive talking about how do you really get your company to be a true customer-focused business. Um we've had an attorney come in to talk about changes in the employment law that are gonna change the way employees have to be classified as exempt and non-exempt, and therefore paid differently, uh, paid on an hourly basis versus a flat wage, and all that's in an effort to help our members stay in compliance with the law and make sure they're not gonna get fines from if the Department of Labor came in for an audit. So they're really practical uh presentations, things that the members can learn, take home, use in their businesses. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but like the fellow that you referred to, Bobby Dolock, you know, a year or two, three years, four years later down the road, they can get out that lesson and use that knowledge in their business to you know further grow their company or maybe even to keep out of hot water. So there's the guest presenter, and then we go to a member presenter. That's one of the group where the rest of the men and women around the table act as informal advisors, informal board members, godly counselors, and really um help solve tactical and strategic problems with wise experiential business counsel. Not what you learned in your MBA program, but this is what worked in my business. You might want to be thinking about this before you make that decision. Um it's incredible the wisdom around the table, and I firmly believe God, his wisdom speaks through the members to each other when they have need for wise counsel, and uh it's a pretty it's a it's an amazing thing to see happen. After the guest presenter, of course, we have breaks and chances for people to kind of get uh caught up in the hallway with each other, but um after the member presentation, we have a time where we discuss hot potatoes. Those are um miscellaneous issues that the other at-large members are wrestling with in their companies that they need, you know, tactical, on-point help right now. Hurry up, give it to me right now. I gotta go back and solve this problem today. And so um miscellaneous issues that they have, or business needs that you know, they they need to hire a new CFO that wears pink tennis shoes and has a curly tail, and they're wondering how do I find that person, and and and oftentimes somebody in the group or I know a person that can be fill that hole on their executive team, and there's probably about four of those situations going on right now where the CEO Institute is bringing experienced executives to our member companies to help fill out their leadership team and keep them growing and um build build leadership bandwidth. So need people get their needs met. Um and and hey, I you know, I give God the credit for everything that happens in these meetings. If He if He didn't show up, nothing of significance would happen. So I'm not bragging when I say any of these things about people's needs being met. I believe you know God is there in the room helping to meet people's business needs through each other, through our guest presenters, through me. Uh, and it's it's a it's a God thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What else would you say to somebody that's maybe kind of on the fence or they're thinking about getting this type of Christian-wise counsel for their business? Um, you know, maybe and and you're in the Dallas area, and so if they were gonna, are you taking new members at this time, or what what would you say to somebody?
SPEAKER_02Well, all of our membership is located somewhere in the greater Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex at the present time. Um you know, regardless of where um somebody is from that that may be listening to this podcast, there is more than likely a Christian CEO or um executive group in your own backyard. In Houston, I think there's a group called Convene, probably C12 Group is down there. There may be some other ones I've never even heard of. Um we're here in North Texas, um, but the groups are there if you'll dig around for them. And and um, you know, here's my burden for business owners. They can go through their career and just make money and buy bigger houses and more boats and planes, but all that stuff is gonna get burned up someday and none of it's gonna last. They're not gonna take it to heaven with them. And I'm not criticizing having a nice lake house or a Gulf Stream. Every time I go to DFW airport security and I have to you know get frisk and go through the security line, and I was less for my own Gulf Stream G3 jet. Um, so you know, I wish I had my own plane at times. But, you know, it they're missing the opportunity to serve the most high holy God if they don't understand that they're the steward and not the owner, and that God can and will grow his kingdom in and through the executive, their people, their company, if they will just be open to God's presence in their business, and if they turn their business over to God, give it back to him, because he already owns it, and say, Lord, use this business for your purposes and your glory, and then watch what happens because God will in no way turn away from somebody, a Christian business executive, that really wants to serve him in their business. And he will put you in the game, he will call plays with your jersey number, he will count on you to execute, um, to touch people's lives, and it is absolutely the most satisfying, purposeful, significant business existence you could possibly imagine. So that's my parting comment is get with the program. And that doesn't mean the CEO Institute, it means get with God, go with God, let him work big time through your business. You'll never regret it. You'll one day experience commendation and treasure in heaven for everything you did to serve Christ in your business.
SPEAKER_01Well said. Powerful, powerful. Well, if somebody is in the Dallas Fort Worth area, CEOINST.com is the place to go, right? That's our our website, sure. All right, and definitely go check it out uh either way to see what else is going on at uh the CEO Institute. Elaine, thank you so much for taking the time out to share your wisdom and expertise, and just may God continue to bless the work you're doing to sharpen these Christian business owners and just to teach them about becoming uh making that shift from being an owner to being a steward and realizing that ultimately we all work for him.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, good to be with you, Darren. Take care.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And we would greatly appreciate it if you just quick break overview.