Welcome back to the Theology of Business podcast. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, author of The Marketplace Christian and Marketing Like Jesus. And this is a show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God in business to transform the marketplace and make an impact in eternity. On today's episode, we're going to be discussing the topic of Christian business ethics. And we're joined by business ethics expert Dr. Scott Ray, who is the Dean of the Faculty, Professor of Christian Ethics, and Chair of the Department of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. He has a Bachelor's of Science in Economics from Southern Methodist University, a Master's of Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a PhD from the University of Southern California. And his primary interests are in bioethics and, of course, business ethics. And he's the author of 10 books and consults with several Southern California hospitals and ethics. And he and his wife Sally have three sons. And just recently had the pleasure of meeting Scott at a recent Faith in Work event here in Houston, Texas. And the workshop presentation that he did was just first class. And I was I was so impressed and knew that uh and I got so much value out of it that I knew we just really needed to share this with the theology of business community. So, Scott, thanks so much for taking the time out. I know uh it's a busy season in the academic world with graduation and and everything, but really appreciate you coming on to be with us.
SPEAKER_01Sure, my pleasure, Darren. It was good to it was good to meet you in Houston. And uh you're right, it is a it is a busy time for those of us academics. I might add also to the stuff that you mentioned, I teach regularly uh an ethics course on in business ethics in our school of business uh at Biola University as well.
SPEAKER_00Excellent, excellent. Well, I just shared a brief background, but uh tell us a little bit more uh about yourself and kind of uh where this interest and passion for business ethics kind of began for you.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh I guess it starts really when I was considerably younger. Uh my dad was an entrepreneur at his own company for many, many years. Um so we sort of got this idea, we got for the entrepreneurial emphasis just by watching growing up. I have really vivid memories of uh sitting around the the dinner table when my dad announced to my siblings and I that he was putting all every penny that he had saved for us to go to college into this business he was starting. And uh he was he was not asking for our opinion, he was announcing it to us.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And it turned out, in you know, in retrospect, it was actually a very good investment of our college funds because the company was very successful. Uh and he ran his company uh, I think, in a way that was consistent with Christian values, though I'm not sure he ever identified it as such. And part of my interest in the a theology of work and business has to do with his experience. Uh, he he and my mom both came to a vibrant faith a little bit later in life. They were part of a really dynamic Bible-teaching church, but he never really connected the dots on what he was doing on Sunday and how that connected with what he was doing during the week. Uh except that you know, churches collect revenue, they don't generate it, so they need somebody out there generating revenue. That was about it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and so he he he actually I'm not sure he really ever connected those things. And I wondered how frequently business people in our churches aren't connecting those dots either. I think that's a fairly well-populated fraternity and sorority of folks.
SPEAKER_00Right. Definitely. Well, you know, we hear about the big scandals like Enron and and others, but based on your research and what you've experienced, what are some of the most common types of these business ethics situations where Christian business professionals often are not applying a biblical worldview?
SPEAKER_01I think, Darren, it's it's it's it's probably more in the general approach as opposed to any specific issue. There are lots of specific issues I think that illustrate the general approach. But I think the general approach that, in my experience, that most workplace folks take toward the workplace is that I have one set of values for private life, I have another set of values for the workplace, and it's sort of church on Sunday, work on Monday, and it's two separate worlds, two separate domains. Right. Um, and I think some of the places that comes out are um in some of the assignments that we take that uh deal with you know questionable content. Uh some of the ways we approach, you know, truth telling and information disclosure in the marketplace. It's a big one. Uh I think some of the ways that we treat people who report to us, uh that I I find that makes a very big difference. Most people don't see that as an ethical issue, but I think that has really profound ethical implications. Um and then I think you know, probably the you know, for people who are in accounting and finance, you know, some of the ways that uh the generally accepted counting accounting principles are applied. And you know, as as your audience may be aware, uh those print those the those gap principles were not handed down from on high. Most of them are developed through time and experience as accountants wrestle with new ways of recording new types of transactions.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um and so the argument that uh well everybody else is doing it this way may actually have some validity to it. Because that's really that's I mean, and no nobody decides in one fell swoop that a gap standard is going to be changed. It's done as a gr as a consensus grows and is established. And it's it's it's a bit it's a bit like the way the courts recognize constitutional principles. They recognize they don't create them, they recognize them. Sure. And I think that's what the accounting standards board generally does, is they recognize new ways of accounting for different types of transactions than we might have had in the past. So though I I those are some of the areas where it might show up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And if somebody's overriding approach to business is that the purpose of business is to increase shareholder value, which is so commonly held, I mean, what I like to encourage our community with is that if it's not eternal, it's not the bottom line. And and so people need to have that eternal perspective that God is very much interested in how they conduct themselves in the in the business world. But if your worldview is just sort of temporary and you're just trying to do what everybody else is doing and make a profit, I mean it's easy to see how a biblical approach to ethics would just kind of go out the window in all of these different situations.
SPEAKER_01But I think a lot of that too is that people aren't people are not actually convinced that ethical behavior makes someone a better business person. And I think, although I think in the short run, there almost always costs to ethical behavior, which is why we we're even having this discussion. Uh but in the long run, I think those virtues that are nurtured by both that are that are both required and nurtured by involvement in the marketplace, uh, I think do generally make someone a better business person. Right. Um those I mean, I think I my my one of my late mentors, you know, Dallas Willard, put it this way. He said, Who would you, who would you rather have work for you? Someone characterized by the fruit of the spirit or by the deeds of the flesh?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01I don't think that's a tough call.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I think, you know, because the trust and reputation is so key in business that I mean you can only reinvent yourself so many times. You can only rename your company so many times. You know, people they they figure out that this company is is dealing in unethical behavior, and so they get so many bad ratings on the Better Business Bureau that they just start over again and start over again. And, you know, over time, like you may win in the short term, but in the long term, like you're saying, you can't really build a name in the business world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, one of the things that sort of troubles me about uh a trend is the emphasis on a company's or or even an individual's brand. And I think we have we have subsumed the discussion about reputation and trust and trustworthiness under that general umbrella of a person or a company's brand. And I don't think that really captures what the brand, what we really mean by that. Uh, because I think someone's, you know, a company's ethical reputation, I think is the most important part of what we identify as their brand. But we view that more in marketing terms, uh, not so much in ethical ones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's uh that's unfortunate. Um but I think when people get a hold of that, that I mean, your your brand is every contact, it's every perception that people have of you, you know, from the the phone call with the customer service person to the way their expectations are or are not being met by the promises that have been made. And I think you made a good point earlier that the way that we make promises in business and don't deliver on those promises, I mean, that is a key area where there's a lot of unethical behavior going on. So there's so many different issues, and and this is really kind of the thrust of your presentation that I heard here in Houston, uh, that that there is a there is a default position that we should have as Christians when confronting these ethical challenges in the marketplace. What is that a default position?
SPEAKER_01Well, our in our view that when we put it like this, when when you when you deal with ethical challenges and ambiguities, rather than succumbing to the temptation to get out, instead the default position is to keep your place at the table unless there are compelling reasons to leave. Right. And some of those compelling reasons, in our view, would be does it put you in legal jeopardy? You know, we've had we've had several people tell us that, well, I you know, I told my boss I don't want to do this, and he's and he said, well, that's that's a career-limiting decision. And we said, tell your boss so is going to jail.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01Um a second one is is it is involvement in this kind of business, is it corrosive to your soul? You know, that's a subjective thing. It is going to be different for different people. A third is does it does it does it undermine your ability to bear witness to the reality of Christ in your life? If people have, you know, if people have this sort of, you know, what's wrong with this picture moment when uh you know they see what you've been doing, but also find out that you're a believer.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um and I know there's a fourth one.
SPEAKER_00Um I'll have to check my notes because I know that I wrote it down.
SPEAKER_01I'll think of it in just a minute.
SPEAKER_00Um, so so I I I think people get the the the point here that there's this default position, which is to not leave the table.
SPEAKER_01Right. And again, and again, part of the reason for that is to you know, is if you think about who if you leave, then the person who replaces you will, I'm almost positive, have a less sensitive conscience than you do. And so you may walk out of there feeling you know, feeling a lot better about yourself. Our experience is that usually only lasts for about 15 to 30 minutes. And then you realize, well, the organization is really in a lesser place because you have left.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Now that's not to say that aren't, I mean, there's certain things that you just that you can't do. I get I get that. And and there are places that are more ethically challenged than others. And there are there are times when you know you you don't have a choice but to leave. I totally get that. My our concern is that frequently we see people leaving prematurely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's kind of a boycott mentality where that's that's kind of the first response to these types of situations.
SPEAKER_01And we don't theologically, we don't expect really any organization to be without some sort of flaw and some sort of ethical challenge. I mean, in a fallen world, we shouldn't expect purity on the part of organizations that are populated by miserable, wretched, self-centered, depraved sinners. You know, in fact, I uh we tell our we tell our business students most of the organizations you're gonna work with are a mixed bag. You know, they're gonna do some things really well, have integrity in some things, and not and in others, not so much.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And if you go, if you're looking for purity, you know, go set up your lemonade stand on a desert island.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01Don't think you can go be a pastor and get and get into an ethically pure organization.
SPEAKER_00Great point. Well, I have a specific personal scenario that I wanted to get your feedback on. So so this is the default position, which I I totally agree with, that our our first instinct should not always be to run away, because we're called to be salt and light, and that's because things are dead and dark in our culture. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have said that. So this this personal situation, you know, I'm a small business owner of a publishing company, and and so here here's the scenario that I'm now faced with, which is sort of ongoing, that just started a couple weeks ago. So it was immediately after this recent announcement by PayPal that they would no longer be setting up their 600-person office in North Carolina simply because they didn't like North Carolina's new law that requires people to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender, their birth gender identity, not the gender that they currently identify with. So I respect that decision on the part of PayPal to this is what they believe. So they're not going to support, you know, and by moving into this state of North Carolina that they would feel that they are supporting um legislation that doesn't align with their values. So I I respect that. At the same time, you know, I do respect the decision by the North Carolina legislature. So, so but since I started my publishing company, all pretty much all my invoices that I send to clients have been going through PayPal. And I think a lot of the entrepreneurs that are probably listening to this are probably in a similar situation where they're using PayPal for a lot of things. And and so basically PayPal has been getting about a seven at least a cut out of probably 75% of my sales. And and so because I don't I don't like that PayPal has withdrawn their plans to set up shop in this state just because they don't like that the government is saying you have to, if you're a man, you need to go into the men's room, if you're a woman, you need to go into the women's room. Um so so because I don't like that, uh, and and because my business is so intertwined with PayPal, what is the right approach to take in this in this situation?
SPEAKER_01Well Darren, I I I appreciate your sensitivity toward uh both both interests in this discussion. Uh but I don't I don't really see where PayP where you are doing anything unethical by continuing to do business with PayPal. Um the the people we do business with are not, you know, we're not are not saints. Um and I'd say if if PayPal, if by doing business with PayPal, you know, that means that you are doing something unethical with your customers, then I think that's worth getting exercised about. But until that point happens, um, they want to they want to do business according to their values. Join the club. Um and you know, I'd say I wouldn't I wouldn't fault you. If you found another provider, I'd say, hey, go knock yourself out. Um but I think I think that's that's pretty distant what I would call distant cooperation with evil. Um and you know, no nobody that we do business with is gonna do everything in ways that we totally agree with. And so what we have to determine is you know, is you know, is my doing business with PayPal what I would call a material cooperation with something that I consider unethical. And I would say in this case it's not, because really that that stand really has no impact on your the way you conduct your business with integrity with your customers.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um I guess part of what kind of complicates the issue for me is because I do see businesses as a potential a place for ministry. And so I'm not gonna go to a church or I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put my tithe, or and I'm I'm not gonna put my offering uh toward a church or a ministry that is doing things that I believe are are, I mean, very much an affront to the gospel. And so why would I consider a business uh differently? You know, and it like it's okay to put your money toward a business or an organization that is so overt about the message and the worldview that they're trying to broadcast. Because it's it's not like you know, on Amazon, Amazon sells things, you know, erotica books, for example, but they sell Christian living books. I'm not gonna boycott Amazon because they sell, you know, to an extent. I mean, if they're like selling humans on there or something like that, and like human trafficking, that's a different situation. Um, but but because you know, in the US marketplace, anyway, we have such a array of options, I'm not limited to PayPal. So it's not like I'm kind of stuck with PayPal. It's just one of those things that, you know, should a decision like that motivate me to find another option? And maybe sometimes there aren't other options.
SPEAKER_01Like I say, I don't I don't think, I mean, there's I don't think you're doing anything wrong by look looking for another option. I don't think it's morally required either.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01And I think we hope, I think you're right, uh with you know, I don't want to put my money, my tithe, to a church that's doing things that I don't agree with.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01But we generally hold churches to a little higher standard on that than we would, you know, you know, businesses that don't claim to be having any connection to a Christian worldview.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I was going to say secular business, but I edited myself. There's no such thing as a secular business.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I completely agree with that. Well, basically where where I'm at with it right now is I have that gave me the motivation when they made that call and they took that stand publicly and said, This is the way we are going to stand as a company on this issue. It's like, okay, well, I'm either going to stand with you or I'm not going to stand with you. And so for me, putting my money with them was basically me saying that I'm standing with you. Um so I found a better product actually um to start using for my uh for my finances and invoicing and all that and I'm using them now. Um I still have some of my e-commerce stuff uh with them that's a little bit more challenging to migrate uh right now but but that's you know it was just I I think maybe a probably a familiar situation for some people out there. So that's why I wanted to kind of bring that one up. I know you have a lot of other great examples.
SPEAKER_01What will be another example that comes to mind uh of a of a situation that would cause somebody to have to make this type of decision well most of what we get are uh are employees who have less you know they have less discretion than you do because you're I mean this is your company you're calling the shots um and I think just uh in fact I just one more on PayPal and then we'll leave that but I'm not I'm I guess I'm not totally convinced that by doing business with them you are necessarily standing with them in everything that they stand for. I mean I I I don't I don't I don't see it as that being that kind of complicity. But I think what we find are there sort of individual assignments. So take for example this was one uh one one person she was employed by it's a it's a web based media company and what they do is they take they take um print and television ads and adapt them to the web. And this was a print ad that this company was being asked to do which which was for a it was for a brand of kind of edgy brand of clothing that they sell mainly to college students. And they had um the the the print ads had uh sort of this you know sort of spring break on steroids um and it was you know kind of wild drink you know drinking games uh lot it was clear they were college students because they had you know college logo shirts on and the ones that had shirts on um and the the the person who was in charge of this this was supposed this is pitched to her as a big project but she had a sister who had been killed a few years earlier in a drunk driving accident by somebody who was underage. And so she was personally very sensitive to the to the idea of underage drinking and chose you know she was wrestling with whether or not to accept this assignment and uh her boss had encouraged her to to accept it and she she eventually did she kept her place at the table hoping to moderate some of the things that were problematic and even even uh held to the idea that even if she couldn't moderate this one she might be able to moderate some of the next ones by keeping her place. She was pretty sure that if she if the company replaced her it'd be somebody you know far less conscientious than her. She's a good example I think of someone who I think did the right thing by keeping her place at the table. She I think had it you know had it caused a little more angst or been maybe a little different issue um she might have done something different. But I think and I think certain way she phrased it was was right uh rather than you know go front and center with the morality card uh she pitched it in terms of I have this is a personal issue for me. And she she could have also said it's a it's a it's a personal issue because it's a moral issue too. But she pitched it as just as this is a personal matter of conscience for me because my sister was killed by this you know underage drunk driver a few years ago. We have a similar scenario where you know a this is a really good friend actually has got an advertising agency here in the West Coast and they won't they don't take any tobacco advertising. It would be very lucrative for them if they did. But his dad you know smoked two packs a day for you know 40 years and died of a heart attack when he was 55. And he just said he said it's probably it's okay for your agency to do these but you know it's a personal thing for me I think it's unethical given my background and what you know what you know I just I just I don't want to be a part of advancing the industry that helped kill my dad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah sure.
SPEAKER_01So I think it's generally I think it we we would say you have to be strategic in the same way about moral issues as you do about other issues. And generally the people who come in riding on the white horse of righteousness you know with the you know playing the morality card usually end up getting shown the door. And so we encourage people to do this you know approach this strategically make sure you have enough you know organizational capital banked to be able to make a stand like this and then as best you can frame it in terms of it being a personal issue a matter of personal conscience and instead of just walking away always ask is there another assignment that I could take you know is there another alternative for me because I I I love my company and I want to stay I just have a personal thing with working on this assignment.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Now some companies will say hey you know get oh get over it it's not it's business it's not personal. And then you have a harder choice to make I think we asked my my ad agency friend if the choice came between taking a tobacco ad, let's say that your company had lost a client, a big revenue producing client and ad agencies don't they you know they don't have they don't have buildings or things or you know inventory they can sell off. It's their people that's you know the human capital is all they have. And so if they lose a big account he's got to lay off people and I said if your choice was between accepting a tobacco ad and laying these people off what would you do? And he said I'd hold my nose and take the tobacco ad because I have a I have a um weightier responsibility toward my employees and their families who are dependent on this for a livelihood. And I and I think that I think that weighting of those values I think is right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah and I I think when the options are more limited it it does become more interesting because like you you you made a good point about there's a difference when your employer is asking you to do something versus when you are for example the the owner of PayPal and you can you can say let's say that the the owner was uh was a Christian and they said we are we're not going to go to North Carolina because of a ruling on this issue that that is not an agreement and people and they would have just gone to a different state maybe you know as long as there are states that's still around that haven't you know ruled out yeah exactly um and but I do think it's interesting that even though the default position should be to stay the the unbeliever is is saying you know with our company we could go to any state we want to because you've made this ruling we are not going to go to your state uh and so it it's it's challenging in that way but but it it is nuanced when you are the owner versus when you are the the employee.
SPEAKER_01Right it it's very helpful to be able to call the shots.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And there you know there you don't have you your options are different.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01There you've got choices really with when you're when you're an employee and you're reporting to someone you know you're right your choices are more limited and they're more stark. And there's more I think I think there's actually more at stake for for employees and which makes it I think much trickier.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean I think they can relate more with probably a a Daniel you know versus say a a David in the Bible. Right.
SPEAKER_01And I think yeah one of the things we want to emphasize too is that you know if you're not a good employee already you know you that you those are some choices you get to kiss goodbye.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you know if you're a good valuable employee generally our experience has been that companies are you know they're not look they're not looking to increase their turnover. And if they can accommodate you they will if you're a good employee. And if you don't have these twinges of conscience once a month you know if you if if this is you know I mean if you have these twinges of conscience regularly then I would suggest you probably need to get into an industry that's not going to disturb your conscience as regularly. Right. And it may it may it may very well be a bad fit for you. But assuming assuming you're you're diligent and faithful and responsible and a good a good steward of what the company's asking you to do I think it's reasonable to expect if you're gracious about it the comp the company to accommodate your your wish to be on a project that doesn't trouble you ethically because the company the company knows you know they need your best effort for this client and you and you have a moral obligation to give your client the bit your best effort.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if if you can't in good conscience do that then I think that it's it's in the company's interest to reassign you if if it's possible to do that.
SPEAKER_00Great point. Well as we're kind of closing it up here uh what would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our Christian business professionals and then also let us know uh a one of you've written 10 books um what would be the the number one book that you would recommend uh that you've written specifically for Christian business professionals well i'll I'll do the shameless self-promotion first okay uh the the book that I'd recommend is uh it's our a book I co-authored with a colleague at Seattle Pacific University by the name of Kenman Wong uh and it's entitled Business for the Common Good uh it's published by University Press uh uh it's a I think it's it's designed for thinking work workplace folks uh it's part of a series that University published a few years ago on Christian faith and the various disciplines um I would encourage any any workplace person I tell them to skip the series preface go right to the introduction uh because that's what the series preface really has nothing to do with business and I some I'm I fear that some workplace folks might get a little bogged down with that um I say the the parting shot I don't get to do a parting shot very often so I appreciate that um I we I guess I'd I'd encourage you know everybody who's out there in the workplace to see their work as um you know as a part not not all of it but a part of their faithful service to God and that they consider themselves in full-time service um and the Bible's really clear about that that the very work we do actually constitutes a part of our ministry I often ask business people I say tell me about your ministry in the workplace and they tell me all these things they're doing when they're not doing their job and nobody gets the idea that the that doing your job counts as part of your ministry too. That's right.
SPEAKER_01It's not just the church stuff that you do in the workplace. Yeah um and I would I would I'd want people to know that you know the workplace is probably the primary crucible for their spiritual formation. It's the primary arena in which they can fulfill the command to love their neighbor as themselves. And it's the primary arena in which they serve God by serving their communities. And so I think it's it's worthwhile and I'd say this to pastors too I think what our churches need to be better at is helping our workplace folks understand that they are in this for more than just a paycheck. They are in this in order to serve their community and to show how specifically how does their business contribute to human flourishing in the service of their communities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Powerful and I was just remembering you you were sitting on that panel there at the end of the conference and there was a pastor that had just recently retired now on staff at a seminary and actually confessed I mean he repented for in a in in a lot of ways it wasn't even his fault. He just didn't he never heard this message he never understood that God really wanted to be a part of what people are doing in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01I I told him after the conference after that panel that his admission was the most important thing that was said from up front during the whole day. I agree a hundred percent that was a remarkable addition that he had actually for 30 years and never got this powerful well where can people connect with you Scott? Probably the best place would be by email at Scott.ray at viola.edu and then I have a I have a webpage on the Talbot website at Talbot.edu and then yeah I I'm not a big Facebook Maven but uh gotcha but uh yeah I if somebody wants to you know friend me on Facebook be happy to respond to that too.
SPEAKER_00Well go get the book Business for the common good on Amazon. Scott thank you so much uh again know this is a busy season for you so thanks so much for taking the time to share your wisdom and expertise and uh may God continue to bless the work you're doing to equip Christians for ministry in the marketplace and just help to bring about that Christian worldview in our culture.
SPEAKER_01Thank you Darren I've enjoyed getting a chance to get uh get better acquainted with you and all the best in the work that you continue to do as well.
SPEAKER_00Thanks episode and I'd like to hear feedback on this episode at theologyofbusiness.com where you can get more information about marketplace ministry, spiritual gifts in the marketplace, marketing like Jesus, and Christ in our leadership and entrepreneurship. The Theology of Business podcast is sponsored by Hybridgebooks. If you're interested in publishing a book to make an impact for God's glory and culture head on over to hybridgebooks.com forward slash course to sign up for a free free video author training course in this course you'll want to write a free nonfiction book how to market your book and how to start a book as a free leader. Thanks for listening and keep partnering with God in your business