Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RJW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baffet University. I'm your host, Darren Deer, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HPU's Center for Christianity and Business, including the Christian Business Review Academic Journal, articles, videos, and news about upcoming events by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. And now, on to today's interview. Today we're going to be discussing the topic of how to survive success. And we're joined by Dr. Michael Chung. Michael received his Bachelor of Science from Ohio State University, his Master of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and his PhD from the University of Nottingham. Actually, I got laughed at when I pronounced Nottingham from somebody that's actually from there. I think Nottingham, right? There we go. And he's taught New Testament, Old Testament, and theology at Houston Baptist University, and also New Testament and Christian Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary in Texas. And he's taught overseas in Indonesia. Michael was a missionary from 1999 to 2002 in Asia and was on the Cruise Staff, which is formerly known as Campus Crusaver Christ, from 1997 to 2005. And he's been a contributor to the Center for Christianity and Business blog since 2014. He's written some incredible articles for us over there. Definitely go and check it out. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Michael. Great to be here. Thank you for having me. Well, we're excited to have you. And as we get started, uh tell us a little bit more about yourself and kind of what led you to study this topic of surviving success.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a great question. And uh if anything, I was, by the world's definition, not successful. Um, I would be going with a Christian, Christianity, Christian terms would call a wilderness type experience where I felt very dry. I felt um just very, I was you know, struggling with complaining about my circumstances. I'm a professor, but I haven't had a chance to teach um much. In fact, this this past year was the first year I haven't received a W-2 from either institution that I've adjuncted for for almost four or five years. So it was a really hard time for me. And so in and so I was reading the Pentateuch, because obviously a large theme is the wilderness there, and just seeing myself in Israel, seeing them complain, seeing them desire to go back, some go back to Egypt, some go into the promised land too quickly. And uh so I began to study the Pentateuch, and then I came across Deuteronomy, and especially Deuteronomy chapter eight really hit me because here they are, they're in the wilderness, but they're about ready to come out. And I just realized that um I will not be in this wilderness forever. And um, these are some good lessons. And then right about that time, there's always people in the news that seem are quote unquote successful, but maybe are experiencing some personal turmoil. And you ask yourself, why is that? Uh and it wasn't just um secular people, it was Christian people, you know, Christian leaders as well, um, well-known Christian leaders that weren't doing well. And so as I study the passage, I began to realize that you know, their life is a series of ups and downs, peaks and valleys, and sometimes we go through the wilderness and sometimes are on the mountaintop. Um, and both can be very dangerous places. And so for me, I was just in a position of myself being in a wilderness, but also being um observing people that quote unquote not in the wilderness, you would define from a secular point of view successful, meaning they were prosperous um and influential, but they they themselves were not doing well. And so those two factors kind of really moved me to to read Juno 8 for about a week. I just would keep reading and reading and reading it. And finally I wrote on it, actually, and I published it with the uh the Center for Christianity and Businesses um articles blog. And so, yeah, it's it's been something that's even now you see people in the news that aren't doing well who once were doing very well, and all back to the few principles that chapter eight of Deuteronomy talks about uh can be applied.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I'm sure you can relate to it as well. I mean, in the academic community, uh just even getting your PhD, I'm sure there was some struggle there uh in in terms of the temptation to kind of let ego get the best of you. I mean, I having been in academic circles, I've I I know what that kind of looks like and even feels like to some degree, um, even though I don't have a PhD personally. I mean, is that is there some background there in terms of your own personal experience?
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a lot of pride, certainly, when you earn a doctorate. Um, a PhD, I think, is about less than 1% of the population, if I'm not mistaken. I'm I'll have to check the numbers there. So you are in somewhat of an elite group. There's really not many people. Um so there are there are times where there's a temptation to to kind of throw out your card too quickly, where let people know that you have this degree, um, demand that almost that you be called a certain way. Uh, and that's really quite empty. It's really not what God wants. I think God wants a in my case, it would be a it would be uh an honor for people to be shocked that I had a PhD. That means I'm not deriving my my significance or my identity from my title. Um but I think, yeah, there's definitely, I think you've having gone through the the academic theological institution, you see that there are men and women who struggle that are quite arrogant. Maybe they feel like they published a lot, or maybe their their books are doing well, or for whatever reason, there is a, you know, the the Bible says that pride knowledge puffs up, but love builds up in Corinth in Corinthians. And I think there's that challenge, especially in academic theology, to really have pride um in the knowledge and just sort of have a position, I guess, of a certain position within the kingdom where you're giving people, you know, future leaders their grades. I think there's a there's a struggle there. It might it's just relating to it to it personally, yes.
SPEAKER_01Because I mean, in your field, there's not just a temptation for academic pride, but even uh religious pride. Yes, right. Because because you are you're trained as a theologian, and so you know what's what's wrong with these people that you know don't know they're right from their left theologically. And and so I mean, I I think I think we have uh uh uh the right person to be talking about this topic because this is something that certainly you would have had to to deal with and know that you're gonna have some great insight for us on the topic. Well, as we move forward, Michael, tell us how would you define success?
SPEAKER_00Well, obviously, if we looked at a dictionary, there would probably be a number of verse of uh definitions that define success. But just keeping it simple, I would just uh define it in terms of this interview and in terms of the article I wrote, just simply prosperity, uh abundance and influence. I would just some so maybe um maybe achieving an abundance, achieving a prosperity, achieving a position, achieving an influence that is highly desired. Um that's how I would define it in this context. Obviously, God defines it very differently than we do. And so certainly someone who's struggling, like like based on our previous conversation, someone who's struggling with pride over their title, I think, would be someone who's not successful in God's eyes. Maybe in the world's eyes are successful, but certainly not in God's eyes, which is the only one that matters.
SPEAKER_01Right. But you're talking about in for the sake of this discussion, you're talking about a success that even comes from God. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, that's that's true. Yes. So so this so the abundance can be, you know, everything's from God. You can make the argument, of course. The Bible Bible says that, but uh obviously Deuteronomy chapter 8 specifically, God is telling his people that you're about ready to leave the wilderness and go into the land that I promised you. And there you'll have a, you know, there'll be no more man, obviously, and they'll be they'll have abundance of fruit, and it's a land flowing with milk and honey. And so, yes, this success uh in Deuteronomy eight is something that God is going to give give us. And uh you see this pattern throughout the Bible where God breaks someone like a Joseph uh who was imprisoned, and then eventually, you know, he became second to Pharaoh. Um and so you see this pattern here. Um, and then you see throughout the Pentateuch, uh the first five books of the Bible, that one of the one of the commands that's constantly being harped at uh to the nation of Israel is do not forget God, do not forget the Lord your God, do not forget what he has done for you. So, yes, you're right. But in this case, success would be God given for the Israel land of Israel.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So and it's it's unique of the blessings of God because you know, when we think about the fruit of the spirit, we don't we don't think about like a negative downside to having to God giving us love, to God giving us joy or peace or patience. But but and of course those are all blessings from God, but but when we talk about success in terms of the material success, it it is a unique gift from God because it does seem to have such a negative downside. Um, what are some of those pitfalls of success?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think if you study business, you tend to, I mean, people really work hard to achieve success. You see this in companies, you see this in individuals, you see this in athletics, you see this in academics. I mean, you when you you've seen a trend, you you can even see a trend uh once academics receive tenure, their productivity may not be at the same level. Um so you see this pattern of people are driven to achieve success, and once they get it, um they I don't want to say they to use a phrase, they they take the their foot off the gas. Um, but it's uh there's almost an aspect where once they've achieved it, they feel like they've they've arrived and they no longer have that same effort. Um so walking with God is the same way. But the pitfall is simply pride, pitfall is simply um comfort. Um lots of pitfalls, um, specifically to business. Uh well, you see this in athletes. There was a study done on the University of Missouri actually of athletes who have achieved their big contract. And what they did find was the majority of athletes, once they've gotten that big contract, meaning they they've signed that you know five-year, $100 million type deal, um, that their performance does tend to decline because all of a sudden they've achieved this great success, uh, quote unquote, and now all of a sudden they're no longer as motivated. So there's a lot of things that I think success can breed. You know, the the main one from the Bible is pride.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You see that in King David when he took the census. How there was this pride, how he took pride in his own army instead of the fact that God's hand was on him, the spirit of the Lord was with him. And you saw how people suffered. Um, thousands died because of that decision.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think when God spoke, and and you pointed this out in Deuteronomy 8, that that he warned his people that whenever you do enter into this success, this this promise, uh, these promises that I have for you, you may say to yourself, My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me. Yes. And that's certainly a big temptation for those of us working in business uh to feel that we're the ones that are bringing in the clients, that we're the ones that are making the money and and boosting the economy and all of these things that we give ourselves credit for. And yet we brought nothing into this world and we can take nothing out of it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's it's it's a constant fight for for it. No matter how successful or quote unquote unsuccessful, I think it's a constant fight to to go against our human nature. Our human nature longs to be God. The reality is we long for control, we long to have our name glorified, and the Bible's very clear that we're to glorify the name of God. And uh, it's not easy to do, but certainly we we can do it.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad you brought up David in the in the census. So so so tell me your thoughts on this. So David takes a census, and Moses takes his census, and one of them's right and one of them's wrong. In light of this conversation, how do you how do you explain that?
SPEAKER_00Well, Moses wasn't fighting a battle. Um, Moses was simply it was simply organizational. Plus, they're in a wilderness, so it's not like he's got tons to do, you know. I mean, I'm not saying he's doing that to to pass boredom, uh, but there's an administrative uh necessity with David. I mean, obviously, if you read the text, it's a very theological text. Um, one text says Satan incited him, one text says God incited him. But as you read between the lines, you see that from David's personal life, you would see that it was himself that was trying to take the glory because he had conquered so many kingdoms, and it was very clear from the Bible that God had given him this victory. And yet here he is. Um, and both and both writers in um Samuel and Chronicles tend to have it towards the end, too, which is interesting. Um, and so here he is, he's trying to take credit because they've won all these battles already, and he just wants to say, Well, look at all these people that are still alive, look how big my army is, look what a great leader I am. Um so they're the yeah, you you can begin to see that you can do the same action, but have a different um different response from God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so it was it was peacetime, right?
SPEAKER_00It's the heart. So I yeah. Moses, Moses had his problem when he struck the water, struck the rock um at Horeb, I believe. Or I'm not Horeb, but uh Mereb. Anyway, um fortunately my degree is in New Testament, not Old Testament, but when Moses struck the rock, that was his problem. But that's when he was himself taking it to his own hands. But David himself, you can see um that David himself struggled with pride there, though the text seems to indicate that A, Satan, or B, God was the instrument uh of that, which you know was, but God used it also to help David's pride.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, and we can look at some of these incidents and wonder well, it it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but the the thing that I see as really being at the heart of the issue is what did God command them to do? And we talked about this in your article as well. And God did command Moses to take his senses, and there's a whole book of numbers that I'm going through right now, but but he did not command David to take his senses, but David did it anyway. God did not command Moses to strike the rock twice and and but he did it anyway. And and so they they may seem like somewhat small and nuanced issues, but I mean it it seems like that's one of the core ways that if we are to not forget God and not forget our source, that we always stay in tune with what is God saying I am to do in this in this moment today. Amen. Well, God warns his people throughout the Bible to not forget him. So um how would a person how or let's say a successful, maybe somebody's a business person listening to this has achieved some success. How would that person know if he or she has forgotten God in the midst of that success?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a a great question. And I think um, again, naturally, I I think daily we we struggle with that. I still remember Rick Warren saying that he has to tell himself multiple, multiple times each day, it's not about me. Because that's one of the that's the first line in his book of the purpose-driven life. It's it's not about you. And so he says that to himself personally every day, uh multiple times a day. He says, it's not about me. Um, and so if you read the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there's a very disciplined um regimen to remember the word of God. It's really very simple. It's a meditate on what he's done for you and meditate on his word and and delight in his word, like the Psalm chapter one talks about. It's really at the heart is what has God written, what has God done, and how much of that occupies our thoughts.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And so you read about how you're supposed to write it on the doorpost, write it on your forehead, um, teach it to your children. Um, the word of God is just everywhere. I mean, the longest chapter in the whole Bible, uh Psalm 119, is all talking about the Word of God and delighting in the Word of God, knowing the Word of God. And so that's really how we, in one sense, it is a discipline because I don't think it's natural for us to meditate on the Word of God. But the godliest men and women I've met, and the most quote unquote successful um men and women I've met in the Lord, I've seen that they've had this characteristic where they are constantly meditating on God's word, they're delighting in God's word, they're really loving God's word, and you can see that their soul is really filled with the word of God, a happiness that George Mueller would often state, how he would read the New Testament in his heart until he was happy. And so I think that's really um our best way to combat. Uh as far as knowing, I I feel that it's like a frog in the kettle kind of illustration where I think I don't feel we would know necessarily. I think a lot of times, like like David after he sinned against Bathsheba, it was the prophet Nathan that kind of woke him up and saying, Hey, what you did was pretty bad. I think the the pride, one of the pride's weapons is deception.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think um for us, um, you know, we we can be, you know, I mean, the the illustration, I don't know if it's actually true. I've never tried to to to boil a frog in a kettle. But what they say is if you put a frog in a kettle and you just slowly turn up the heat, eventually the frog will boil. Um because he he the the frog won't realize um the water is getting hotter. That's what they say. And I think sin and pride and forgetting God can be that way too. We can actually be thinking we're okay with God and in reality doing everything that you talked about earlier about how we're trying to get glory for ourselves and doing all these things that we shouldn't. Um so so I think obviously accountability is important. You need to have a a Nathan in your life, someone who's not afraid to say, hey, you know, Mike or Darren, you're not doing well. Yeah. But it's really hard on a personal level um to see that. We see that again in the life of David, how it really took the prophet Nathan to kind of wake him up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, and and we I think when we come to a point where we're no longer listening to God, and and you talk about in Deuteronomy uh eight, uh referring to Deuteronomy eight, how that's a blueprint for surviving success. And I'm curious to know kind of what you mean by that. Um what why don't you go ahead and share some of your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, again, it's a very simple blueprint. There are really only two things that um Moses is talking about in chapter eight of Deuteronomy. Uh he well, actually, there's a few more things, but uh basically he's preparing them. Number one, he knows that they're gonna, their circumstances are gonna change. And then no longer will they be wandering in this wilderness. They will have a home, they can settle, they will have a land flowing with prosperity. And he's worried they're gonna forget who gave him this prosperity. So, so really all he says in chapter eight is a, don't forget what God's done for you. Um, you know, like the Red Sea for one, for one instance, for the manna that he provided, all the great deliverance that he did during those years of wandering. And then obviously, um, Moses had more than than 10 commandments. Um, he had had over 600 well, 613 total. And so we don't know the exact composition of what um the nation had, but they probably had something very similar to what we have today in the five books of the Bible. So it's clear that um Moses wants that to be center in their life. Um and it's it's pretty much throughout the the Old and New Testament is the word of God needs to be central in our life. We need to know it, read it, love it, live it, obey it. And we see that that's really what God wants as the application is to know his word and obey it. Because in obedience to his word, we love him. And so um again, it's I think it's uh it's a humbling process in the sense that we have to realize humbly that, hey, we can fall. I mean, we've seen that in the Bible, we've seen that in real life. I'm sure we all know someone who's very devout who maybe is no longer devout. And a humbling process, knowing. That hey, we we need help and um we could easily fall because pride is very powerful and success seems to kill almost as much as the wilderness does, if not more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we just need to realize that there's a danger when we're not uh well com comfort never breeds great growth, in my opinion. Um comfort leads to um cowardice, not courage, is in my observation. And so that just the comfort of of being prosperous is a struggle number one. But then the the what we've talked about before, the pride of trying to take credit for that success instead of giving it back to God sounds very simple, but really is quite difficult because the Bible is really filled with um men and women who've forgotten God. That's yeah, God's grace um to forgive us. And that's why Jesus is so great, because Jesus never failed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And one of the ways that and and you had mentioned this about putting the the laws on their doorposts. And I mean, I I in New York City I lived across the hall from a very devout Jewish person that had the laws literally in a little scroll up on their doorpost. And and so so that was very much part of the culture, and and those things would just naturally remind somebody about, I mean, if you're really committed to doing these things, then it's gonna be more di in some ways more difficult to stray because you have that constant reminder. But in our in our sort of um, you know, new hypergrace theology that is so pervasive in our American Christianity culture, uh, what would you say to somebody that that says, well, um their obedience really isn't a big issue now because we're saved by grace?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's um something Paul had to address in Romans chapter six. Um, you know, he was saying there were there was a faction that said, Well, hey, since you get the grace, why don't we keep on sinning? And Paul's answer is may it never be. So um Christianity is certainly um a wrestling match. Uh with uh one of what the mark of the Christian life, I don't believe, is victory. Christ has that victory. The mark of the Christian life, I believe, is struggle. And I think um obviously the issue of grace and works is a huge struggle. Um, we all struggle with that. And I think Paul definitely wrestles with that, especially in Romans, um, how he talks about really he's talking mostly against Judaism, which is emphasizing too much on works. There clearly was a faction that um that took the grace for granted. And so Romans 6 comes in. And I think that's just the you know, I think John chapter 4 says that he who worships me must worship me in spirit and in truth. And I think it's John 4 24, I believe. Um I'm wrong, I'm really in trouble because I'm a professor of New Testament. But uh if I'm wrong, correct me. It's somewhere in John 4 for sure. Um, but John talks about that, and I think we need to realize that there is grace. That's why we talk about the spirit, uh, but there's truth as well. And that's that gotta be that balance of and so in the end it comes to love, really. Who do we love? Do we love ourselves? Do we love other people, or do we love God? And that will then the the grace and and truth will become balanced. David was clearly a man who loved the word of God. We see that in in the Psalms, we see that in his life. But clearly he was a man who needed great grace because uh the title of my next book is gonna be called God's Rotten Apple. David's often referred to as the apple of God's eye. But as you read his life, you see that he's quite a bigger rascal than Saul from our standards. Obviously, God's standards are different, but if you look at our standards, I mean the guy was quite a rascal, you know, a lot of stuff that I think not just the great sin of Bathsheba and the census. Um you see in his life he had a lot of um, you know, tempers and just really deep appetites. And you see that this man probably also understood the grace of God. And it's a wrestling match. So obviously, to someone who's um I had a professor one time said that uh human beings are are creatures of extremes, and the only time they're ever really balanced is when they're swinging in between extremes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you see that some people are hyper grace and maybe other people are hyper works, which would be legalism. Right. Uh, but in the end, it's really a balance of obeying God, but just knowing that when we fail, um God doesn't you know give up on us. Yeah, just requires us to do our best. That's why he had Christ on the cross. He did everything at the cross. So when we fail, we can just look to the cross and say, Hey, Jesus, you got my back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and I think we could say that it if I was to know that I had forgotten God, I could just ask myself, am I listening to God uh today? And and if not, and we know, I mean, if we if somebody was to ask us that hard question, and it's really a question that as business people, and and I know we have others listening to this podcast, uh, that just because you're not uh you're not a a reverend or you know, you didn't go to seminary or you're not uh the pastor of a of a local church or something like that doesn't make you exempt from listening to God. Oh no. Because I mean, how much more so? You're the one that's out there in the marketplace that is really the only Jesus uh 90 plus percent of people are ever going to encounter because they're not gonna come into your church. But they will they will see Jesus in you or they won't see him at all. And and so I think it just really comes down to to listening. And and you said in your article that uh obedience is the essence of loving God, and and that obedience comes through listening, and listening comes through uh the relationship. Well, Michael, any any parting piece of advice for the business people out there that are wanting to know how do I survive success?
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a number of I'm guessing the people listening to this podcast will be in different situations. There'll be people like myself who are struggling to either uh advance or you know, maybe they're at an entry-level position, or they just want to reach the next level in their quote unquote career. And there'll be people that are engaged in their career that are about ready to move up. And then there's people that are already put maybe at the level that they are at, or maybe there can there can be more promotion. They may be happy where they're at, or yeah, they they may be they may be very happy where they're at and they don't really have any ambition to or desire to move up. And then there's people that maybe they have achieved all they can achieve. Maybe they are the CEO and there's nowhere to go. Um, I think we're all at different levels. Um, but I think in the end, um, whether you're at my level in the wilderness trying to get back into it, or someone who's at the top and a CEO who can't um go any further, I think in the end it's still the only thing that really fills our heart is our love for God. Because I think anyone who has achieved a lot of quote unquote worldly success will say that that's really not what fills them. I mean, I read something about Steve Jobs the other day, and I don't know if it's true, but Jobs' last words were something like he wishes he wouldn't have devoted so much time in making money. You know, here's a man who had just so much money that he couldn't spend it all, and yet that's really all he gave his life to was to make these products. And he wishes he would have devoted more of his time um to things that would last. Uh he mentioned relationships, he mentioned uh philanthropy. And so I think you you see this throughout history and throughout um people is that in the end, when you're on your deathbed, very few people ever want more time in the office. They always want more time doing things like being with the people they love. And I think whether um you're just struggling to move up or whether you're you're about ready to retire, um, it's all about our love for God and our love for the word of God. And I think whether we're successful or not, I think Moses' words of remembering what God has done for us and and just meditating on the word of God and living the word of God, these are things um that if we practice, we'll have success in God's eyes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So amen. Well, Michael, where can people connect with you?
SPEAKER_00Uh if they need to email me, um, that's the best thing. Uh, I think uh they can email me at my uh Gmail address. Do you want me to just give it to over on over there? Or sure, if you'd like to. Uh if they just want to email me at mikechung330 at gmail, that's fine. Uh, I think it's published also on the website. Um, after the articles, there's usually a link to how we can be contacted. But yeah, if they are interested in discussing more, it's mikechung330 at gmail.com. That's probably the best way.
SPEAKER_01All right. And then you're on Twitter.
SPEAKER_00Uh I am. I used to be a sports writer, so um, yeah, I'll have a lot of followers who follow me because of my sports journalism past.
SPEAKER_01That explains a lot now. Yeah from what I've seen on on your on your feed.
SPEAKER_00So I tweet a lot of politics, I tweet a lot of sports, and I tweet a lot of uh spiritual stuff. So I kind of have three different personalities on my Twitter.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Well, Mike, this has been uh uh excellent conversation. Thanks for coming on to share your your time and your expertise and your passion for the Lord. Uh go forth and do great things.
SPEAKER_00You're welcome. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it a lot.
SPEAKER_01We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU's Center for Christianity and Business at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening and keep integrating biblical values into your business.