This is an episode that I've been wanting to do for quite some time, and not too long ago I just met just the right person. Her name is Allie Sauls. Allie and I are both serving on the Love 2020 committee that you heard Ford Taylor talk about a few episodes back on the Theology of Business Podcast. And so in our discussions, as I heard her share her passion and experience and expertise in this field of marketplace Christianity, I just knew immediately that I needed to have her on this podcast. Allie has a Bible school and a business school background, something that we both have in common. And while an undergrad, Ali and her husband Rick started a business together, which is now called Righteous Clothing Agency, Incorporated, which specializes in corporate identity gear. And clients include Buffalo Wildlings and other great companies. And this Portland, Oregon business has flourished now, employing dozens of people in four states. And Allie is leading the organization as CEO. And in addition to her role as CEO, she's also involved with the businesses mission network within the Four Square Church in the U.S. And she's helping to create an atmosphere of inclusion of all believers in the Great Commission. And she's helping church leaders to understand this and to see the latent potential of ambassadors for Christ sitting in the pews each and every Sunday. Allie, welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Darren.
SPEAKER_01Well, as we jump into this topic about building a kingdom business with your spouse, I wanted to ask you where and kind of how did this joint call into the marketplace as ministry begin for you and your husband?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great question. I would say that it was not entirely intentional. We were in training to become pastors. We were on that road. And while we were in college together, we started a business. It was very small, and it just started to grow. And we found ourselves kind of at a crossroads, feeling like, can we do both? Can we plant a church and grow a business? And in meeting with our pastor, several years into having this business that just kept growing and growing against our will, we kept saying, Well, we're going to jump ship at any moment and jump into church ministry. And our pastor sat down with us and just said, How about if you don't plant a church? And how about if you think of your business as your ministry and look for ways to make it kingdom impactful? And so we started to mull that over. It was a really new concept for us. We up until that point had really thought of business as a funding mechanism for ministry. So you work really hard, you create profit, and then you can support ministry that's happening in the local church. And so it kind of flipped this idea on its head, and we said, okay, so what does that look like? Well, at the time, our clientele was for the most part churches, Christian universities, it was camps, it was nonprofits, and for the most part, we were living in a bit of a Christian bubble. And so we said, gosh, we are not having very much impact in the world, intersecting with non-believers at this point. So how about if we become way more intentional in our marketing efforts and try to acquire customers who are just general market businesses? And so at that point, we really redirected our marketing efforts and started to pursue finance companies, uh, hospital systems, restaurant um systems. And so that was about 15 years ago, and we just pursued that. And we found that through our interaction with our customers, that we were having an ability and an impact to speak into people's lives in a way that we hadn't had before when our clients, for the most part, were already Christians and believers. And we have found um that it has it has opened up our eyes to what business can do in the marketplace to transform people's lives and to have an impact um with our employees and with our vendors and our customers in in ways that we had never thought of before. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's a video that I'm gonna link up to in the show notes for this episode, but it's where Allie is actually speaking to at the general conference for the Foursquare. Is that is that the type of conference it was in Anaheim? And and I loved one of the things that you said in there about how in those in that early stage with you and your husband and developing the idea and really the seed for this this company, you were saying that you were in church history class in the in the back row working on your marketing plans for the for the business. So take us down to kind of that that early formative stage where you're in you're in Bible school, you're you're studying to become pastors, and so you were married at that time?
SPEAKER_02We weren't actually. What's funny is that we had just gotten engaged about a month before, and my husband, who has um a promotion background, and I had an advertising PR background, and so um he had started the business with just a business license. And really the purpose was that we wanted to be able to buy t-shirts at wholesale cost, and in order to do that, you had to have a business license in Los Angeles, and so he saved up money for a few weeks to be able to go and buy this license so that we could buy t-shirts, and so we're sitting in the back row of church history class, and really it was the back row so that we could have a conversation and not interrupt the rest of the people in class. And we're sitting there thinking that, okay, um, how about if we create this company that produces uh t-shirts that have Christian messages on them? And that was the original direction, and so that's where the name Righteous even came from. We were trying to think of something that had a bit of a uh religious connotation, but also had a bit of a Southern California beach culture type feel to it. And so the name came from that discussion as we were writing down tons of options and crossing them out and finally landing on righteous and um and then trying to sketch out what our market could possibly look like. Obviously, that whole business plan did not gain traction. We tried for about six months and quickly discovered that we did not have the money or the wherewithal to get our product line to market in the scale that it needed to be in order to generate the revenue that we desired. Um, and so instead we had a lot of friends in Bible college with us who were youth pastors, who were children's pastors, who were school teachers, and they had areas of responsibility looking over um summer camps and that type of thing, and they needed shirts, and so they started coming to us saying, Hey, can you um can you help us with um getting great looking shirts at an affordable price? And so um that's where it really started, and it just kind of grew from there. And um I have to say we were almost accidental entrepreneurs. Um this really wasn't some grand scheme in our mind. We did not have this vision of this business that we were going to be leading. Um, it really was in its infancy a way to get t-shirts at wholesale. Um, and it really just evolved from there. And the more that we did, the more demand we found. And um Rick's a great salesperson, and I think I'm fairly decent on the administrative side of just managing operations and all of those aspects, that's kind of behind the scenes type stuff. And so um it just grew and we found ourselves going, huh, we have something here. What are we gonna do with this? And so that's that's really what happened in church history class.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, there are a lot of different schools of thought on working together as spouses. And and I'm I'm married and you know, my wife and I have worked together on some some different things and have been navigating that. Um you know, some people would say, Oh, you know, you don't you shouldn't work with your spouse. You know, just when you come home, just let that be family time. And with your family, be have family time. And when you're at work, that's that's work time. And so sort of compartmentalizing our lives in that way. Um you have not taken that that path. Um tell us um what what what has that uh that process been like in learning to work together with your husband, not only in the um in the family matters, but also in your professional work life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, you know, if you're gonna be in ministry in a church, you're most likely gonna be working together. And so I think we already had kind of that underlying understanding that if we were gonna be um pastoring in a church, you have to do that as a team. And so stepping into business together, we it it felt like a natural thing for us to do. Um, you know, it's a matter of looking at your gifting and saying, how do we complement each other? Where are those areas where we um potentially overlap and can have conflict. Um but for us it was a fairly easy thing to do. Now, when I say easy, I don't mean that there weren't challenges and difficulties, but I think from the in the back of our mind, we just were coming at this from the standpoint of we felt like together we could be very powerful. And so when you acknowledge from the get-go that you can do something significant together, all of a sudden it it's like a huge hurdle that you've just overcome. And so for us, it was then a matter of saying, well, how do we navigate the daily kind of interactions and the responsibilities that we have to um to handle together? And we we didn't do things really well. Um and and one of the main issues that we had to deal with was as our kids were being born and we were raising children, it's then if you're working together and you're um talking throughout the day and you're going through problems and um creating vision and all the plans and things that you do as business owners, well then when you get home, then how do you shut that off? And we weren't we weren't great. And there were times when our kids would say, Stop talking about business, you're at home right now. And we'd have to say, Okay, yep, you're right, time to shut off that conversation and let's focus on what's at hand. But I have to say that for the sake of our children, um having having them live in the world of parents working together in business ownership has created it created an atmosphere for them of um inclusion. They could see themselves in those roles. And all of our kids are very entrepreneurially minded, and they love to work in teams. And our daughter went to business school for college, and she called home during her freshman year, and she said, I gotta tell you, I'm learning a lot in college, but I learned more watching you and dad interact and lead a company and include us in those discussions. The fact that you talked about stuff while we were present, and we got to hear you guys deliberate and make really hard decisions and figure out how to deploy people, the hard decisions of should we keep this person, are they in the right position, finances, all of those things. She said that really taught me so much more about business than the stuff that I'm learning in business school. And so while we didn't do things well all the time, um it was definitely a growing opportunity for us. And I think it in a lot of ways it benefited our kids because they think very creatively. They're not looking at situations that they find themselves in now in their leadership roles and saying, oh, we don't know how to find solutions. They're they're really willing to just kind of dig into something and say, hey, we've watched mom and dad process problem. And so we've gained skills from that that they just kind of gleaned like through osmosis. You know, it wasn't, again, it wasn't anything intentional. We didn't sit them down and say, hey kids, we have a lesson today. It's called how do you figure out who to hire? It wasn't like that at all. It was just they happened to be present overhearing conversations and we would ask them questions and say that us questions. And it was very natural and organic. And so in the end, I feel like there was a lot of uh benefit and positive to be gained from that, though we could have in many ways we could have done better at kind of shutting off the business from the personal part of our lives, um, just to allow more of that focused family time.
SPEAKER_01What would have been maybe an example of a time early on in the formative stages of the company where you you mentioned before that that it was fairly easy to uh to work together by comparison to probably many other couples that would try to do the same thing. But what would have been an example of maybe a specific challenge uh that uh that you face? Maybe a situation where your different styles kind of clashed, and maybe what are your different styles and and kind of how how have they clashed?
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah, that's that's a good question. So um from the get-go, my husband thought that we were very similar. Um, but the the more that we work together, we realize that we have very different approaches. He is very big picture, um, he's very active, he's a go-go go kind of person, whereas I am more of a processor, I like to think through things, and I'm very strategic. And so for me, it's all about creating a plan and then working the plan. And for him, it's about having an idea and just heading in that direction. And so the plan will kind of reveal itself in his mind. Um, and so there was conflict because I kept feeling like um I didn't know where we were, I didn't know where we were headed, I didn't um I didn't have sure footing underneath me because he was just, you know, had this idea in his head and he's ready to run with it. And I'm saying, yeah, but do we have the money? Do we have the people in place? Do we have the equipment? Do we have the processes? Do we have the legal part? Do we have um do we have the insurance to cover us? I mean, those are all the questions that I'm asking. And so I feel like yes, there's gonna be tension when you've got somebody who's just constantly in active mode, and somebody else that's saying, hey, but let's make sure that we've got all the boxes checked. Um but again, when you're on the same page in terms of your goals and you're committed to each other primarily, um, and that we knew that together we weren't going anywhere. And so whatever the challenge was that was going to pop up, we were gonna have to work through it together, which meant a whole lot of sitting down and talking about our expectation and saying, This is what I see. Okay, what do you see here? All right, and how do we blend these two things? And early on, um, I discovered that my husband was really, really bad at paperwork. And his type of personality in general just is bad at paperwork. Those are just details. You know, that's not stuff that a person who's got action in their blood needs to focus on. And so um within like the first six months of marriage, he said, you know, I think you're probably gonna have to handle like the bookkeeping and the taxes. And I said, you know what? I think that would be a great idea because I actually file taxes because apparently you don't. So I had to pull up about two or three years worth of receipts that were in a box and take them to a CPA and say, all right, you need to fix this because this is not good and we can't grow. Um, and it became one of the early-on flashpoints, but it was quickly resolved when um, you know, he basically said, I'm gonna relinquish all of that stuff to you. You just keep me legal and safe, and then I'm able to kind of just take off and go do the things that I'm really good at. And so we've I think we've we've done a pretty good job of finding our own sweet spots and freeing up the other person just to do really well in their area of strength.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Beautiful. Uh well, did you ever have any doubts that uh or or maybe a thought that, well, maybe we should kind of do our own thing professionally, or maybe we we should kind of have separate um, you know, separate organizations or or just you know, so that way we uh we don't you know wear each other out or anything like that. I mean I I just heard um actually less yesterday morning I heard Lou Holtz, the great football coach from World Dame and others speak and and and he said uh something along the lines of in the context of a marriage that that absence in a marriage is like oxygen and a fire, where a little bit of absence can fuel it, uh, but too much can can put it out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so there, you know, there's there is sort of that dynamic of the the constant presence of being together where you know when you're working together, I mean you are with each other all the time, right? Um I mean I'm sure you're probably doing more traveling and that kind of thing these days, but I mean, did you ever just kind of feel like maybe this this isn't going to work out?
SPEAKER_02Um so we did have um some, I wouldn't say thoughts about it not working out, but we did have thoughts of, huh, this might not be working out optimally for us right now. So, like for instance, my husband loved having me around. Um, but I don't always love having him around. And I know that doesn't sound very nice, but it's just it's a difference in our personality. And so for him, he thought it was lovely when early on we shared this large office in our office complex. We had this big room, and my desk was on one side and his was on the other, and then we had an assistant in the middle. He loved that. Well, I didn't. So as soon as we had the opportunity to um expand a little bit, I moved my office to a different area so that I had just some separation, some privacy, some air, some space around me because I need to process and I have a really hard time doing it when I'm in the presence of somebody who's almost The phone all the time in sales mode, having lots of conversations, and it just didn't give me the space that I needed for the way that I need to operate. And so we've found those ways of still being close together, accessible to each other. But you know, we had to start scheduling the time together because we could be in the same building all day long and not see each other. And so we'd have to schedule those times of, hey, I need to talk to you for half an hour to go over some budget concern. And so we'd put it into our calendars, we'd go into the meeting room, we'd sit down and we would talk together. Um, and so even though we work together, it's not like we see each other all the time. Um, my husband has been on the road for um, I think probably 14 of the last 16 weeks. And so he's only been at home in Portland for two of those weeks. So we still connect every day by telephone. You know, we see each other on the weekends, we're still processing things together, we still put time on our calendar to go away together. We just did an annual planning retreat a few weeks ago where we took two days and left town, went to a resort, spent time together to really process some bigger picture type stuff. So I would say that for couples that work together, um, you still need to find the mode that works for you within your own context. And you really create that. There isn't any sort of roadmap. There's nothing that just because you're a couple that works together, you have to look like another couple that works together. I I would say that it really is up to you to communicate openly with each other and say, this is how you can really feed into my strength. So what can I do to feed your strengths? And what does that look like? You know, how much time do you want to spend together? Um, and there's always going to be give and take there, but I think that it really is up to um each couple to figure that out together and to be open and share with one another to say, you know, this right here, whatever you're doing over here, it might be stifling me. And then to be able to hear that back if there's something that you yourself are doing that might be inhibiting um your partner in um bringing their best self to the table.
SPEAKER_01Great answer. Well, there's a video that I referenced just a little bit ago about how Allie, you you spoke to this group of church leaders about how they can engage their people that are coming to church every, you know, every week, but that they are not uh they're not church staff, they're workplace Christians, which makes up I mean almost the entirety of the body of Christ. And and you just did a brilliant job of communicating that message. And so people can watch that video on uh theology of business.com. I'll link to it there. Um, but just kind of give us uh as we as we kind of turn a corner from this topic, um, how can people engage their pastors with this message that God wants to be involved in their everyday work uh work-life ministries?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great question. Um and I get asked that a lot. So for people that feel like maybe their life, their nine-to-five job is disconnected from the mission of the church. And yet you feel that and you know that God has put you in your profession, um, in your career for a purpose. And so you want that to be integrated into the Great Commission. But you don't also feel like you're um, you know, a vocational minister. It might not be so much about proclamation, and and so you want some guidance and mentorship. There's there's a few things that I think really need to happen, and and one of them is just to go and talk to the church leadership, talk to your senior pastor, talk to um the teaching pastor, that's I don't know the size, you know, the size of church is gonna vary obviously, but um they need to know that you have a need. And so if the church pastor, a teaching pastor is going to be providing relevant messages on Sunday morning or through small groups or through discipleship training, they need to know the needs of the people that are there. And I think that much of the time we are reticent as church members to really make our needs known in terms of the types of things that we want to have taught on. But I think that would that would open up the eyes of pastors and and then there's the whole is a oh, there's so many good resources out there now. The idea of business as mission or marketplace ministry, um, faith and work, um, the the number of resources has just exploded in the last 10 years, and there are so many good resources out there. Um and you know, Amazon or CBD, one of those places just has a whole bunch of them. But find some good books, go to some websites, look at the stuff that Darren offers. Um, there's a lot of good stuff out there, and I have a feeling that a lot of pastors just aren't aware of it. And so if they could just be introduced to a book that's been meaningful to you or a website, a podcast, something like that, that you could share with your pastor and say, Listen, I want to know more about this. Please address this type of stuff from the pulpit. Um, it would give them the courage to talk about some of these things. And then invite your pastor to come to your workplace. Invite them in and say, Listen, this is the world that I live in nine to five, Monday through Friday. I want you to experience it. And then really share with them the challenges that you're dealing with. So if you've got um, oh, whatever it is, you know, you're having conflict, if there's um some ethical issues, if there are um things that you're being asked to do that you go, boy, how does this mesh with my Christian faith? Those are great things to process with a spiritual mentor and your pastor. And so I would start there because that will open up dialogue. And I love the word dialogue because it means that everybody brings something to the table, um, and then you put it on the table and you discuss it, you dialogue about that, and what you come away with is something richer, fuller, more robust than what you yourself brought. And so you speak into it, you allow your pastor to speak into it, and I think that that communication will help to bring about um flourishing and greater inclusion for people that are in the body of Christ that might right now feel immobilized, um, not um optimally challenged in their place of influence.
SPEAKER_01I love it. And again, that was sort of a teaser to the video that's going to be there on theology of business.com where Ali is speaking to these church leaders, but it's I mean, go having the courage to go to your pastor to start that dialogue, as Ali was saying, is so vital uh to the body of Christ and to the future of the the direction of the church, frankly. Um because there are so many. I mean, I just I went to a uh a faith and work event last week, and there was a pastor that they he was it was the first time he had ever heard this message. Uh-huh. And and he just recently retired from his from his church um and and is on staff at a very well-known uh seminary, and he actually repented in front of the entire group that was there and said, For my entire ministry, I have never understood this. And and so because they don't teach it in seminary now, Allie. Both you and I went to a a Bible school, and it's just not I think m more and more there are courses like stewardship and and faith and work that are being introduced as electives, um, but it's it's gonna be a while before and it and it's really gotta happen at the grassroots and and the pastors coming in contact with those daily needs of the people in their workplace. Uh so Ali, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your expertise and passion uh for this uh for this message and for making disciples in a business, in a marketplace, workplace setting. Um just leave us with uh a parting piece piece of advice and let us know where people can connect with what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, I would say don't just sit there. If your heart is stirring for the people that are around you, that God has specifically placed you next to, start with prayer. And I I really the more that I think about business as a ministry, and the more that I engage with this, the more that I realize how critical prayer is to all of it. And that you start with prayer and you invite the Holy Spirit into the process and you say, God, show me the opportunities that you have. And then as you're lifting up these people that you work with, whether it's your boss or your employees or your co-workers, it changes the way that you see people. And so I would say start there. Um as far as joining the things that we're doing, you know, we have this business admission network within the Foursquare church, um, and we are bringing in voices from all over the country, not just Foursquare, um, trying to mobilize people. We are in our infancy. This is a discussion that is just ramping up. We're super excited about the encouragement and the participation and the people that want to join, which has been phenomenal. Um and but we would love to have more people join our Foursquare Business Admission Network and contact information. I'm sure that Darren could um could provide that because I don't frankly know it off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_01So but I could definitely link up to it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, that would be great.
SPEAKER_01Well, Allie, I know you're getting ready to go into a a meeting with your team. You are right there in the midst of workplace ministry as we speak, so I'll let you get going. But thank you so much for again sharing your your time and and passion with us today. Uh, keep doing great things for God in the marketplace and looking forward to continuing our conversation.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Thank you, Dan.