On today's episode, Tolerating Tolerance in the Workplace, with guest Bill Mears. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RJW Dunn College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. You can get more information about HPU's Center for Christianity and Business, including the Christian Business Review Academic Journal, articles, videos, and news about upcoming events by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. And now on to today's interview. Today we're going to be discussing the topic tolerating tolerance in the workplace. And we're joined by Bill Mears. During his more than 33-year career with Accenture, which that's actually the largest consulting firm in the world. Is that right, Bill?
SPEAKER_02Yes, it is, in terms of pure services.
SPEAKER_00Well, with Accenture, Bill has held positions including quality managing director, group operating officer for the resources, global business, and senior managing director of the Houston office. Certainly no small roles there. And he's keeping himself busy in retirement. Today he serves as a Baylor College of Medicine Board Trustee, a Baylor School of Engineering and Computer Science Board of Advocates Chair, Baylor Angel Network Investor, Houston Baptist University, Dunham College of Business Board member, and he's also a Deacon Chair and Bible study teacher at Second Baptist. And you've been teaching that class for 25 years. Is that right, Bill?
SPEAKER_02Well, I've been teaching for over 25 years. I've probably been teaching that specific class for the last uh 15 years or so.
SPEAKER_00It's always exciting when I meet business people that are students of the word that are that are teaching the Bible and actually recognize that you know what, you can be a business person and talk about the Bible and teach the Bible. Awesome. So Bill and his wife Tanya have been married since uh 1988, and it's an honor to have them on the show. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast, Bill.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you, Darren. It's uh a pleasure to be with you.
SPEAKER_00Well, as we're jumping into this topic, why don't you share with us in the audience kind of what uh inspired you to dive into this topic, tolerating tolerance in the workplace?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, having worked with a global company and uh and been involved in uh in the public sector uh for uh all of my career, uh tolerance was always a key value and something that we always talked about. But one of the things that I've noticed is uh our culture has evolved. Uh the definition of tolerance seems to be changing. And we see it in our political rhetoric first, but it also now seems to be creeping into the workplace. And I saw some of this as I retired and continue to see that. Uh as I uh started my career and came up through my career, uh, the definition of tolerance is the fact that we could agree to disagree. And while we agreed to disagree, uh we could still work together. And it really created a win-win type relationship, a win-win type attitude within uh organizations, and uh and really improved productivity. Uh today what I see uh in terms of tolerance is that definition being tweaked to not that we can agree to disagree, but we must agree. And if you don't agree and uh that I am right and that frankly you're wrong, then we really can't work together. And as a result, I'm seeing win-lose scenarios and even some lose-lose scenarios where people who historically would have been able to work together uh no longer for some reason cannot.
SPEAKER_00You know, I just heard somebody uh there there was a story about two political leaders, and and one of them said, Well, why don't we just forget our differences? And and the other one said, No, we don't need to forget our differences, we need to understand our differences. And and so that means staying at the table when those hard conversations and those disagreements happen instead of uh just demanding consensus. And I think that's exactly uh what you're talking about here. Well, is there a specific example that you would share, maybe something that that comes to mind that kind of demonstrates what you're talking about, something that you've experienced personally as a leader in the marketplace?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think uh you know, one of the things that uh I have seen uh in in the marketplace is in terms of as a Christian in the marketplace, I never had anyone really challenge uh my Christian values. Uh they knew that I was a Christian uh uh by my behavior and the way that I conducted myself and my work style. And uh, but in today's work environment, once they find out that you're a Christian, they begin to uh challenge you uh straightforwardly in terms of uh beliefs that you may have that may be contrary uh to what their beliefs are. And that's when the discussion starts turning into you know what's you know who's right and who's wrong. And uh frankly, if uh if if you can't get a line, then uh that's when that uh win-win becomes a win-lose.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So uh what would be a time when you actually encountered that? What were kind of the to take us to that to that time, that story, uh maybe in an office setting where there was uh there was a a situation that kind of transpired, and how did that play out?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think in terms of uh a scenario uh is um there was uh uh a uh conference at which I was speaking, and I had invited several of my uh colleagues uh to come to that conference, and uh and I let it be known that it was a Christian-based uh conference, uh, or a luncheon, actually, is what it was. And uh and so one of the uh individuals uh accepted that, knew what it was, and uh that individual was from a different faith. And uh and as I spoke at that luncheon and shared my faith, uh, and we got back to the office, that individual uh confronted me and said, you know, um what you said was very offensive to me, and uh and I believe you're wrong. And I said, Well, I respect uh the fact that uh you know, you may have a different perspective and a different faith, but I also know that you knew that this was a Christian-based luncheon and you knew that there were going to be Christian messages. And so I think we've got to determine whether or not uh you know we can continue to work together respecting our differences, or if you're going uh to hold me uh to having to compromise my values to yours. And uh that particular individual uh began to kind of um uh put up a wall to where I could not work with that individual for a while. Uh over time that wall came down, but uh it was uh you know the you know uh a very stark reality that uh what had been a very good working relationship um was uh strained uh for quite some time.
SPEAKER_00You know, and it it depending on what the I'm not what I don't know what the religious background of that person was exactly, but uh certain religions, I know, for example, the Islamic faith, I mean, they they respect a stronger stance in defending what you believe. I mean, they do not respect lukewarm Christianity. I mean, if you believe it, stand for it. And and so I'm sh I have no doubt that that person uh even if they won't admit it, they would respect that you at least stood your ground on what you believe.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that person eventually did. It's interesting that you mention uh the Islamic religion. Uh during my career, I lived and worked in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for three years. And uh, you know, uh in the U.S. we can have those discussions and what you say is true, but when you work overseas and Malaysia is a uh majority Muslim country, uh, and in Malaysia, uh I couldn't talk about my faith at all. And in fact, uh if I did, it would be considered uh proselytizing, and that is illegal in Malaysia by law. So uh one of the things that you discover, particularly when you work in a global uh environment and for a global company, is one of the things uh is that what may be accepted or or as you can have those discussions here in the U.S., you may not be able to have those discussions in other parts of the world.
SPEAKER_00You know, and this conversation becomes more interesting when when you're uh when you are a Christian, when you do understand that you have a mandate from Jesus to make disciples of all nations um to share your faith, to articulate your faith. And and so as Christians, we are not uh we are not to be passive about about not only letting people know that we're Christians, but but actually seeking uh the salvation of of others. I mean, that's Jesus came to seek and to save the loss. I mean, that's kind of what what we're doing. Um I'm curious, how did you deal with that as a as a Christian in in such high leadership positions? Um how did you reconcile that with the Great Commission?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think uh when you're working, particularly when you're working in a uh a secular company, uh you have to kind of go about it uh in a somewhat of a different way. And uh one of the things that I think you have to do, I've always talked about there's three steps that you have to go through before you can really share your faith in that environment. And the first step is that you have to demonstrate your business capability. Uh you have to demonstrate that you are where you are and you are successful where you are because you are competent. You have developed capabilities, you can add value to the organization, you can add value to your clients, and uh and so you have that capability. And once you demonstrate that capability and and and uh basically also deliver on that capability, you uh create credibility. And that's credibility is your you know, street cred, you will, or whatever, but personal credibility. And that credibility involves developing trust because they say, well, this guy's very capable, and this guy, whatever he says, he's going to do. And you have that credibility. And once you've established your capability and demonstrated your credibility, then you can start having a conversation. Uh, and you can start having that conversation and people will listen because they will have seen you in action. And uh there's old saying that seeing a sermon is always more effective than hearing one. And so if they have seen your capabilities and they trust your credibility, then you can start having that conversation, and that opens up that uh possibility of sharing your faith and uh and giving them a chance to get insight that uh that that perhaps they didn't know.
SPEAKER_00And I think that wisdom would apply uh not only with sharing your faith, but for example, when there's disagreement uh at the table, if you've already demonstrated competence and there's credibility, I think people are gonna be more open to what what our ideas are. And and of course, you know, it doesn't mean that every time we come to the table, you know, the objective is to win, the objective is to find out what's best for the organization in in the case of making a business decision. But I think as just living lives that are honoring to God in the way that you're talking about, not just being um you know very overt about uh preaching in the workplace and around the water core and everything, but first of all, working with excellence and and demonstrating that competence, like you were saying, and then how that earns the credibility.
SPEAKER_02No, I think that's right. And and people are more concerned, yeah, people are very observant on how you go about things than what you say and what you do something, you know, sometimes. So for instance, uh uh you know, we used to have a saying in uh in our firm, you know, that uh that individual is focused on solving for accenture, not themselves. And so if you demonstrated that uh you know you weren't out for yourself, but you were really out for the uh you know the good of our clients and the good of the firm or solving for accenture, uh, people would take note of that. Uh in times of stress, in times of conflict, they would uh also notice how you responded to that. So for instance, you know, in a secular work environment, profanity uh is very common. Uh and uh, you know, during my career, uh I probably have heard every word conceivable uh as it relates to profanity. During my career, I never corrected anyone or admonished anyone for their profanity. And some people would say, well, that that seems a little hypocritical. No, the way I did that is I didn't use profanity. And uh and as I got uh further in my career, and I would say over the last 10, 15 years, I would be in meetings and somebody would go into a rage of profanity, and then they would look at me at the end of the table and they would stop and say, I'm sorry. And then they would continue the conversation and change their vocabulary. Uh it wasn't because I admonished them to do it, but it was because they had seen that I could manage that situation without going into that kind of rage and using that kind of language, and uh it had an impact on.
SPEAKER_00And it again, it's such a great example for any type of change you're trying to implement in a workplace. I mean, if you can until you've modeled it, people just aren't gonna understand it. They're not gonna you lack the credibility until you have modeled the behavior and the results that you're that you're after. Uh so that's that's well said. One question that I've I've been thinking about, Bill, is you know, there's a lot of talk about uh corporate culture today. It's kind of a kind of a buzzword, as you know. Uh I'm I'm wondering, is is when we say corporate culture and emphasizing that, okay, is this person right for our culture or are they not right for our culture? Do you find that sometimes that that can be sort of a form of discrimination?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think uh every company, uh and frankly, every church even has its own culture. And uh the culture reflects the values uh of that company. At Accenture, uh we had a very strong culture. And if you were to go out to the Accenture website, you would see the mission statement. But most importantly, what you would see there were the corporate values uh reflected. And it's you know, and one of the things I tell people when they're looking uh for a job is to confirm that your personal values align with those corporate values. Now, by definition, corporate values will be at a macro level, uh, more so than your personal values may go to the micro level. But it's really important that you understand that. And these days, um, most companies of any size generally have their corporate values or their company values out on their website because uh you know, those things, that's that's how it's evolved over the years. When I started, it was uh, and then for and for companies that don't have it, you have to ask the question, you know, what what's important uh and what do you look for in terms of doing that? So it's really important that you find those uh those company or those corporate values because that's a reflection of their culture. Because if you have alignment, what that tells me tells you is that you can operate within that company by not using your language in terms of values, but by using the company's language in those values, but still be aligned with your values. And it allows you to be able to operate uh within your uh within your own personal values. If you find some companies that uh you know have some values that you question, or you see executives or uh people that are acting different than those values but being rewarded, that should uh be a red flag and uh should be something that uh makes you a little bit leery.
SPEAKER_00I guess I'm asking, is there is there sort of a dark side uh to this concept of corporate culture? You know, going back to uh uh what you were talking about earlier and how tolerance has has come to mean that not only do we agree to disagree, but we must agree. And and so I I guess what's what's kind of the the balance? I mean, especially as, for example, an an entrepreneur that is wanting to start uh hire their next employee, I mean, the the smaller the workforce is in that company, the more of an impact that each individual individual person will make on the overall uh culture. So what what's kind of the balance there?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think when you talk about a corporate culture, you know, there there's obviously great value into a culture because you've got everybody that has um you know same perspectives, the same values. Uh, you know, if you go back to the boat analogy, everybody's kind of rowing in the same direction. Uh the potential downside to corporate culture is uh corporate culture can sometimes be exclusive and can also sometimes be a barrier to assimilation. And I'll uh uh, you know, if if you look at Accenture, as I mentioned, we have uh a very strong corporate culture. And growing up in our organization, uh, most of our growth uh in the first, I would say, 15 years uh uh of our of my career was purely organic growth. We would hire people off the college campus, uh, we would train them, we give them experience, they'd get promoted from within. And we had very few people that came into organization uh above the starting level, college level, uh, directly into organization. You had a few, but not very many. Uh in the mid-90s, that began to change and uh and is uh very different today, where you where we needed skills faster than we could grow them organically. And so we would start hiring uh at more senior levels uh off uh out of the marketplace. And uh the challenge was that our corporate culture was so strong that while we could grow that culture in new college graduates, uh trying to assimilate more senior level people into our culture became a real challenge. And uh, and some of those people, our attrition rates at those levels were traditionally higher than they were uh at uh the college graduate level and those that came in through that level because they felt excluded. They felt like uh, you know, maybe we weren't using their skills, maybe uh they didn't feel like uh they felt a little bit like an outsider and all. And Accenture spent a you know a lot of time and money at uh improving that over the last uh 15 to 20 years, and I would say it's better today than it has been, but it still is always a challenge uh for any organization that has a strong culture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I mean there is such a need to on on one hand make sure that you have fresh ideas and energy but at the same time you need you need the experience and and so sometimes you could run the risk of of ageism and uh one way or the other depending on kind of what the needs are of of the company uh but it's certainly a a difficult balance that leaders have to have to find um and but it sounds like you've definitely done that and and found that balance throughout your career Bill who would you say would maybe be some uh biblical examples of tolerating tolerance properly?
SPEAKER_02Well I think uh there's really two examples that I've always um uh looked at one was Jesus Christ himself uh you know after calling uh uh Matthew to be a disciple Matthew uh as I think any new Christian does wants to introduce Jesus to his friends. Well his friends were other tax collectors and other people that were despised uh by the Jewish people and by the Jewish leaders and so Matthew had a party at his house and introduced Jesus to all of his friends and uh and he networked with them and uh and uh and the Pharisees the religious leaders and the Jews uh really castigated Jesus for doing that and uh you know the reality is is that Jesus was networking with sinners he wasn't endorsing their sin and I think uh you know as Christians uh uh we have to be in a position where we can network with those that uh we do not believe may be living uh life uh the way that we believe God would call them to lead uh but uh and be able to network with them have relationships with them to a certain to a certain level but not endorse their sin and not endorse their uh bad behavior if indeed they have that uh the other person was the apostle Paul and uh Paul would tell you he was the Jew of all Jews uh through his education through his heritage and uh if you look at uh you know the book of Acts and uh and throughout his apostles uh Paul when he was with the Jews related to the Jews and when he was with the gentiles he related to the gentiles and he could uh you know basically be able to relate effectively to either one and I think that shows uh a level of tolerance and uh and a level of uh wisdom uh that uh you know that I've always strived uh to uh to accomplish well said uh incredible examples who would what would you say are some signs of tolerance becoming intolerance just to help us make sure that we have a a proper framework of what we mean by tolerating tolerance well I think uh you know there's probably two or three things I would mention first of all uh when diversity outcomes become more important than business outcomes uh and uh you know that what you'll see there sometimes you'll see quotas becoming more important than productivity so it's more important to have uh you know equal representation for this group or from that group whether or not they're qualified or not uh the the focus is really on the diversity versus the productivity and uh and there are uh I have seen some organizations that uh will uh basically talk about the fact that uh you know they're very diverse and all and you'll talk to them about well your business outcomes or business results are not very good and they say well that's okay you know the you know we're more focused on on the diversity and I think that's can be a a dangerous path only because if you don't have a strong business uh then uh diversity will go out with your business if you're not careful. Uh another one is personal values become more important than company values. And uh that's when you know you see individualism becoming more important than teaming. I've always believed business is a team sport and always talked about at Accenture uh this is a team sport.
SPEAKER_00We don't succeed as individuals we exceed as a team but uh if your personal values if you start allowing people to put those ahead of the company values uh then then the individual becomes more important than the team and that I think has uh an impact uh as well and then this whole uh idea of uh somebody's got to be right uh versus uh willing to accept the differences and what that does is it open up opens up uh debate uh versus uh discussion uh you know you know it's always interesting and I've always had a lot of good discussions with people that I didn't agree with or didn't they didn't agree with me and we'd talk about it okay we agree to disagree but when you have to be right uh that's no longer a discussion it becomes a debate and uh and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose and so those are those are some signs that uh that perhaps uh the definition of tolerance is going a different direction Bill this has been an insightful conversation and certainly very timely as we're uh as as we're confronted with issues such as religion and differing uh differing races, genders uh I mean even down those kind of the major major ones but even down to just the basic disagreements that we uh come up against in the in the midst of our of our workday and just making sure that we have a Christ centered biblical framework for uh for making sure that we're able to work in harmony with people and at the same time standing our ground when when there's people around us in the workplace that don't uh agree with us. What would be uh just one parting piece of advice that you'd like to leave with the Christianity and business audience right now?
SPEAKER_02Well I think uh as you're going about your workplace I think the important thing is to make sure you understand and know your values because if you don't know your values uh it doesn't really matter uh you know you're gonna you're gonna be all over the place and so it's gonna be important for you to understand so that your values so you can maintain them and then you've got to walk before you talk uh you got to let people see your values before you tell them because if you tell them and then your walk doesn't equ equal your talk then you lose all credibility and you're you're you're in trouble at that point in time. And then the final point I would say is you need to be confident yet respectful. And that means that you have to speak up for your values but you don't have to speak out.
SPEAKER_00In other words you don't have to preach at people uh you just have to explain to people what your values are and uh and demonstrate that through your behavior as well excellent well how can people support what you're doing Bill and kind of where can they uh find out more about you?
SPEAKER_02Well I mean I uh in my retirement I'm uh uh going about and uh working uh with college and uh kids at Baylor and HBU as well as uh uh doing all kinds of things at Second Baptist uh I think the best way that uh people can uh go about is uh in terms of uh knowing more about me is uh you know you can get to me through LinkedIn uh if you're at LinkedIn and I'd be glad to uh to touch base with you through LinkedIn and that's probably the best way to to find me.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Well Bill thanks for coming on the show to share your time and expertise and passion with us and just incredible wisdom you've shared with us today. Keep doing great things for God in the marketplace. Thank you Darren it's been a pleasure to be with you we hope you've enjoyed this episode and if so we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HPU's center for Christianity and business at christianityandbusiness.com thanks for listening and keep integrating biblical values into your business