Welcome back to the Theology of Business Podcast, the show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God in business, to transform the marketplace and make an impact in eternity. I'm your host, Darren Shearer, author of the brand new book, The Marketplace Christian, a practical guide to using your spiritual gifts in business. And this book actually just released this past week. And thanks to all those of you who've already purchased the book and sent emails and left feedback and shared testimonies about how this book is making a difference in your life and in your work in ministry in the marketplace. I just want to read a quick testimony. Actually, this is one of my favorite testimonies I've received about the book from Ken Eldred. You may remember I had Ken Eldred on the podcast several episodes. He's a venture capitalist. He's the author of The Integrated Life, God is at Work, which really is probably one of the top books, definitely one of the top books on the concept of business as mission. This is what Ken had to say about this book, The Marketplace Christian. He said, and I quote, This book is full of practical direction. I'm asked, how can I use what I do for God's glory? If you have ever asked that question, you need to read this book. It provides the how-to's with practical examples in an easy-to-read style. It's all here. End quote. So thanks to Ken Eldred for that testimony and that endorsement. And really that is what I hope to achieve with this book is to really help make marketplace ministry practical. It's not just philosophical and sort of abstract concept about how somehow, some way in some mystical uh some mystical way our work somehow brings glory to God. Certainly it does, but there is a very practical way in which we can participate in that. And that's what I attempted to present in this book, The Marketplace Christian, helping you to understand how you can use your spiritual gifts for ministry, for practical ministry in your sphere of influence in the marketplace. If you haven't already, I encourage you to get the paperback or the ebook at either Amazon.com or you can also get it, of course, at theology of business.com. And now on to the episode. Well, today we're going to be discussing the question: can a company be considered Christian? And we're joined by Chris Patton, who says yes to that question. And he's got the personal experience to back it up. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. I I heard Chris uh a while back on Tyler McCart's The Success Edge podcast. And I could just tell that he has a passion for discipleship and soul winning, and really is blazing a trail to show people what it looks like. Uh, this isn't just theory for Chris. He's actually doing it. He's the president of the Mike Patton Auto Family, which is an auto dealership group with approximately 100 employees that represents seven new car franchises. And he's also got an incredible blog. I want to recommend that you go and check that out at ChristianFaith at Work.com. He speaks, coaches, and writes, and his passion is to work with business owners and leaders who are trying to figure out how to integrate their Christian faith into their businesses, leveraging their businesses for eternal returns. And uh he and his wife live in Lagrange, Georgia, with their three children. Also, I want to give a shout out to Dr. Jim Harris, author. Just had uh him on the show on the last episode. Uh, he's just come out with his new book, Our Unfair Advantage, but he's also the one that said, you know, you need to really connect with Chris. And so uh it's an honor to have you today on the Theology of Business podcast, Chris. Great, Darren. Thank you. I appreciate you having me. Absolutely. Well, so Chris has written a blog post on this subject. And if you're on the Theology of Business email us, you would have already received that uh uh earlier this week, depending on when you're listening to it. And I asked for questions from those of you who read the posts. And one of the questions I want to kind of lead out with this kind of springboard our discussion. Uh, Tim asked, he said, I applaud Chris's intentions to operate his business in ways that God would approve and even applaud. But I believe there are good reasons not to label a business as Christian. He asked, Did Jesus die for businesses or just for individuals? Can businesses make a saving faith commitment or just individuals? And suppose the tables were turned. Suppose you were a Christian employee in a business owned by a Hindu or Muslim. How would you feel as an employee if the owner described the business in which you worked as a Hindu or Muslim business? So, fair question from Tim. Uh, thanks, Tim, for taking the time to uh to share your thoughts. Uh so Chris, as we jump into this, I would love to hear your response to the question: can a company be Christian? And also, how did you arrive at your conclusion?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a great question, uh, Darren. And I tried to give a fairly well thought out answer to Tim on the post itself. So I'd encourage encourage everybody to read that. Um I guess the the core answer to this is um what is the purpose of the business? Not what is the purpose of business in general, but a a business that um, you know, take mine, for example, that is owned by a a believer uh in Christ. Um and what is the purpose of that business? So for me, um on paper, I've got a partner or two partners, my brother and my father, and on paper we show ownership in the business. But I believe, based on what I read in scripture, that God owns it. God owns everything. Um all we are is stewards of that business for a time period. So if we start there and we look at the business in that light from that perspective, which I believe is the truth, then maybe a business cannot itself be a Christian individual because it's it's not a living, breathing thing, and and uh Christ did not die for the business. Uh but to label it as a Christian business, I think is completely valid. I I think certainly, as Tim brought out, there are some questions, there are some risks that you take when you do that. Uh, and we can kind of go through those uh separately, but I think labeling it Christian is valid if the recognition is that God owns it and the purpose of the business is that has a Christian purpose. In other words, honoring God and uh and from my standpoint is basically uh to multiply disciples. I think that's the purpose that I have in running this business while he's got me in charge of it. So, you know, the first answer, I guess I'd say is yes, I think you can label it that because I believe the core purpose of our business is such. Um Tim's question about the employees that are not Christians, um, I guess you could look at it from two different standpoints. One, if you're a business owner uh who has an ongoing business uh as we did back about 12 years ago when we made this change, um, and you've got employees in place that came on board under different circumstances and suddenly you're gonna start labeling it that, then absolutely you're gonna get some pushback, and we did. Not a tremendous amount, but we, you know, we're in the Bible belt in Georgia, so it wasn't crazy pushback, but we did get a little. Um, if you're starting a business up and you're just bringing people on board, uh, or if you've been doing what we've been doing for the last 10 or 12 years, then I don't think you get near the pushback because as I mentioned to Tim, during our interview process, we mentioned that we believe we have a Christian business. We believe it is based on where it's God's God owns it, and we base the policies and procedures on Christian values on the Bible. And uh so those that are offended or put off by that, I guess they choose to go elsewhere for employment and they have that that choice. Um, you know, we reiterate reiterate again in the new higher orientation process uh what we mean by Christian business, how we are sure that we will not force anyone to believe what we believe, but we'll certainly let them know ahead of time that they're gonna hear about it. They just, it's voluntary, it's uh no coercion, no obligation on their part. But our purpose for the business is this, and that's how we're gonna run it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And we're gonna hear some more examples uh from you about what does that actually look like in your company. But I think it's a question of can we consider an organization a Christian? And and one of the places that my mind goes to with this question is is can, I mean, we don't say that our local church, we describe our local churches as Christian institutions, as Christian churches, even though not everybody certainly that walks in the door of my local church or your local church is actually a Christian. I mean, hopefully there's some non-believers coming in there. Certainly there are people that are nominal Christians, you know, Christians in and name only that aren't actually born again, even though that they they think they are right with God. But uh so so if we would consider a Christian church or or maybe uh you know a Christian missions organization or a Christian nonprofit or another type of charity, a Christian organization, why couldn't we consider a Christian-owned, Christian-operated business as uh as a Christian business? Because it feels to me kind of like a double standard. I mean, are we using a double standard when we label certain nonprofit organizations as Christian because they're they're Christian themed, uh, you know, like again, missions organizations, charities, and the things that you're doing, and people are going to hear that in just a second. I mean, they you are representing the character of Jesus in your business. You have dedicated your business to the Lord, you run it according to his way, you acknowledge him as the ultimate owner of the business. I mean, I think absolutely you're a Christian business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I think everything you just described, Aaron, if you boil it down to the purpose, the if you want to call it mission, vision, and values of the organization, if the bus if the business or church or nonprofit, whatever the organization is, if their purpose, their reason for existence is a Christian purpose. In other words, it's Bible-based, it is um based on the Great Commission or whatever you want to, whatever you want to look at it is, if that's the core purpose, then I think it is that. It is a Christian organization. Um, and that doesn't necessarily mean everybody here is an employee is a Christian. It doesn't mean that that um we're even perfect. It just means that's the purpose for what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00That's that's what we're about. So I Yeah, well certainly with a good thing we don't have to be perfect to be to be Christians, you know.
SPEAKER_01I'm in the car business, for goodness sake.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I love that. You know, you're a car dealer and you're a Christian company. It's it's awesome. I mean, I I think it I think we should also acknowledge that there's another aspect of our theology that kind of comes to the surface when we wrestle with this question, and that's a question of did did Jesus come just to redeem individuals or also all of creation? I mean, it says in Romans 8.21, the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption and to the freedom of the glory of the children of God. And and so as Christ followers, as born-again Christians, we bring the glory of God to the marketplace. And and that affects our companies. I mean, companies that have been used to take advantage of people, companies that have been used with no care for the community, with no care for their people. All of a sudden, the glory of God invades that place. I mean, as it's happened with your company, and now the the business itself is reflecting the glory of God. It's incredible.
SPEAKER_01I think you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_00So, what are some of the examples from your own company of of what this looks like? I mean, how this uh how this Christian aspect of of the company comes through.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll I'll tell you the first thing we did, Darren, this is back in um end of 03, first early 04, is when we really came to this realization. And the first thing we did was look at how we operate. My father was the the owner of the business on paper for 30 years before we came into it. And my brother and I um wanted to build on his foundation of moral principled business. He was he was has been a believer the entire time and and ran the business accordingly, just did not use a label of a Christian business, and that was not the purpose necessarily of the business. Um, but when we took over and started back in, like I said, 03-04, we wanted to look at how does a car dealer do business, how do we sell cars, that kind of thing. The uh scripture that came to mind at the time was out of Proverbs and it hit us like a ton of bricks. It was God hates unequal weights and measures. And uh I looked into that, it basically was referring to the marketplace at the time. You know, a guy selling grain in the rich section of town would use an accurate weight to represent one pound when he sold a pound of grain. In the poor section, he would use a weight that was actually maybe eight tenths of a pound. And the reason he'd get away with it is the poor section of town did not have the ability to check him on his weights, where the rich section would check him with their own, and if they found him cheating them, they'd cut his hands off. So it's that unequal weights and measures that when I heard that and read it in the context of reading Proverbs as a business manual. I looked at our model for selling cars and realized we were that. We were unequal weights and measures in the way we sold cars. Selling to an attorney or a professional who had information about cost of the vehicle, we'd make a very little profit that we couldn't live off of on all of them. So we'd have to make a great deal of profit on someone who is ignorant.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And it just doesn't, it doesn't match up with scripture. Um, so we changed in June of 04. We went to a one-price model. Um, people are most familiar with CarMax, so it's that kind of a model where we basically uh heavily discount our cars, we shop and mystery shop our pricing in the market and so forth, but we come up with a set price on each individual vehicle and we do not negotiate, we do not play the games, the back and forth, and that kind of thing, and it's all above board up front, and it doesn't matter if you're 16 or 60, white, black, male, female, an MBA or high school dropout, you get the same price.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. Well, you know, Ryan, it reminds me of John Wanamaker. Are you familiar with John Wanamaker, the father of modern advertising? He basically invented the price tag back in the 1800s because you know, back then you go into a store and nothing was nothing was priced. It was just, you know, basically whatever that salesperson could get is you know what they're gonna squeeze out of that customer. But he said, you know, I want people when they come into my store to be able to relax and and and have a pleasant shopping experience. So we're gonna put price tags is one of the ways that he that he did that. And he was also a mighty man of God. I mean, incredible things that he did. Um, but but it reminds me of of the principle that that you are you're applying here.
SPEAKER_01Very same principle. And and we simplify it when we're telling new employees, we price the product, not the customer. So it is based on the day supply and supply and demand and agent inventory of the of the product, not the education or knowledge level of the of the customer.
SPEAKER_00That is a powerful statement. Price the product, not the customer. I mean, how many businesses would that trans that revelation transform?
SPEAKER_01No doubt. No doubt. And and it cost us. I mean, I'm just gonna tell you point blank and to anybody else out there listening, we had a huge financial cost to make that change. Um, I thought naively that it would take us 60, 90 days to make that transition. It took us 18 months. We lost 70% of our staff. But going back to the purpose, when we determined what our purpose in business was and how we were going to live that out, we knew this was something that we needed to do. Um, it's been 10 years now, and we've come back and we've we've done very well. God's taking care of us. But I believe we have been very true to that purpose since then. So that's the first thing that comes to mind is that 18 months that was hard in my description, but it was a living hell going through that because it was so hard watching the business struggle, knowing that we were trying to do it for the right reasons and wondering why it was so hard. But the lessons we got out of that period were incredible. So, to answer your question and go back to some other examples, that's the first thing that comes to mind that we we did, and we're still in that same model. Um, the next thing we did was we added a chaplain program. Uh, corporate Chaplains of America provides uh chaplains that that is their full-time job. They work for that company, they serve us along with five, six, seven other companies, but our chaplain comes in once a week, um, actually for two days, and speaks to or touches every employee in the company each week and uh is available 24-7 by pager, uh, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And uh he's performed weddings, funerals, counseling that that uh I have no idea how much because it's all confidential, but uh he has had an amazing impact uh on our business and our employees individually, those that are believers and and those that are not. So that's been a big one.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, one of the the readers, uh you probably saw it, Sharon Broden, she asked, uh, in light of the the work that you're doing to serve your employees, she she asked, I'm curious what your employee retention rate is compared to the standard rate in your industry.
SPEAKER_01That's a great question. And I did I did see that and responded to Sharon. I'll tell you the same thing is ours is lower um than the standard, but and there have been times where ours has been higher, uh, but it's really been more of simple execution in business. And anybody that's in business uh can understand that. Um there have been times where our hiring practice has not been strong enough, or you know, we've gotten off target on some things, but um the retention based on the things that we provide, the opportunity and the benefits and so forth, um, for the most part, our overall turnover is less than the average. Now, we're in the car business, which is a horrendous average turnover, so it doesn't take that much to be better. But uh especially on the sales side where it's it's just a tough business. But um we've definitely we've got people here uh 25, 30 years uh with our same company, and um we're in a fairly small community outside of Atlanta, and uh it's just we've been blessed with some very good employees, very good members.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, you all you mentioned in your in your article that you provide Bible studies actually on site. What is that what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Well, it is this the chaplain actually leads those. His name is Mike, and he comes in um on Thursdays and Fridays. So for lunch on Thursday, we provide a meal, either Chick-fil-A or pizza or something. And we typically have anywhere from 20 to 25 employees in that break room where Mike goes through. In some cases, we've done video lessons, in some cases, um, he's taken them through material, in a way, teaching them as employees how to be chaplains in their own area of responsibility within the business. Um, but he does those a Thursday lunch and Friday morning breakfast. So 7 30 on Friday mornings for technicians and guys that can't get away at normal lunchtime or for salespeople that are tied up. So twice a week he's going through a Bible study. Food plus forty five minutes of Bible study. It's not deep theological uh discussions, but it is. Is the kind of thing that you know we recognize early on that 60% of our employees are unchurched, even the Christians. Uh many of those that just don't go on a regular basis. And so we touch on things in these Bible studies that um they would otherwise possibly hear in church, but they're not gonna hear because they don't go. So it's that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm curious with with uh cultivating this culture of marketplace ministry in your company, does that does that overflow from the the employees to the customers?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00I mean, have there have there been scenarios where okay, this this was not a chaplain, this was one of the one of the employees that just ministered to one of the customers that came through.
SPEAKER_01I had a I literally got a note last week from a customer um and then a Facebook post from this same customer. They took a picture of a note card, just a simple greeting card note card that our salesperson had sent them. Not part of our standard follow-up, but it turns out the salesperson and the customer had had talked at length while the customer was here purchasing a vehicle, and the salesperson uh came to hear about some struggle they were going through. I to this day I don't even know what that was, but day the next day the salesperson on his own accord bought a card, sent that customer a card, just said, one let you know that you're in our thoughts and prayers, hope things are improving. He signed it, and then he had the sales manager sign it and send it out. That's not standard procedure, that's just this salesperson saying, you know what, I see somebody that's hurting, and I just want to say something small and reach out to them. And the customer put it on Facebook, which obviously is positive for us, but that's not why he did it. Um I've had customers call multiple times and say, you just wouldn't believe the the encouragement I got from your employee. Service department, um, the office, it's it's really uh any of the departments.
SPEAKER_00I love that story. I mean, and I love how one of the things that excites me is that when not only not only are you ministering to the people in your own company, but you're actually discipling your entire industry.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you're you're helping you're helping, I mean, because everybody's heard of the you know the stereotypical, you know, used car sales, shady used car salesman, but you're you're completely turning that on its head and and showing your industry what what good business looks like. And of course, it's it's according to biblical principles and in the context of a relationship with the with the Holy Spirit, and and it's it's overflowing from your employees to to the customers and and even showing up on Facebook. I love that. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_01I had another example, Darren, that's mind-boggling to me. I can't help but share it. Um, we have a gentleman in the uh detail department, which means basically he washes cars 80% of the day. And we had done an internal employee blanket drive, just collecting blankets for the local homeless shelter for women and children. And we asked him to take these blankets, roughly 100 blankets, over to the shelter. And when he came back, he came directly to my office and and he said, Did you realize that there are children there that are homeless? And I said, Yeah, I knew that. And he said, What are they? This was in November of last year. He said, What are they gonna do for Christmas? Now, this is a guy entry level making nine bucks an hour washing cars and has some needs of his own, and says, What are they gonna do for Christmas? And I said, Well, you know, I'm not sure. What do you have in mind? And he referenced a car wash program we have, which basically we we provide a once a month we do a car wash with a local faith-based organization where we charge customers a dollar for them to pull in and have this organization wash their car. The organization gets the money, they provide the labor, we provide all the supplies and the lot and the water, the hose, the brushes, and all that. And so the organization raises anywhere from a dollar to twenty bucks per car, depending on what the donation is from the customer. And then we pay them an additional ten dollars per car that they washed, and they usually wash between 50 to 75 cars. We've had one group did 135 cars, so they'll raise between $1,000 and $2,500 on a Saturday for about a four hours worth of work.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01And he said, I'd like to do one of these car washes for that for those homeless kids. And I said, That's awesome, but typically it's the organization that brings the labor, and we can't have you know 10 or 12 or even 20 homeless smaller children washing cars that just won't work. And he said, I'll get employees to help. And I said, Okay, so you're gonna get them to give a Saturday off, give up a Saturday off to help wash cars. He said, I'll do it. And I said, You go get a list together, we'll see what we can do. I'm thinking, it's November. We're done with this. We did it for the summer. I don't want to do a cold car wash. But anyway, he came back in about 60 minutes later with 25 employee names and volunteers to wash cars for those kids. We did the car wash, we ended up raising about $1,400 plus a truckload of toys because he had customers bring toys to uh get their car washed. And we're about to do the second one this coming uh end of November. He did we did it the Saturday after Thanksgiving. It was freezing cold. But anyway, this is the guy that has the need himself, and he's reaching out because he's just moved by what's going on and he wants to help others, and that that's what I'm after.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, that's the culture that you've created. You know, you don't just experience that in every company. And I love that it wasn't it wasn't a mandated community service project from the top down, it was from the grassroots of the company. Somebody said, I want to make a I want to make an impact, you know. I I see a need and I want to go and fill it. That's exactly and uh I love it. Well, Chris, any uh any other, any final words, any final parting piece of advice you'd like to share about uh maybe somebody's uh uh a small business owner or maybe not a business owner, but they're trying to make an impact for Christ in their workplace. Um, what what would you like to say to that person?
SPEAKER_01Well, if if you open it up to anybody that's a believer in the marketplace, the first thing I would say is you've got to acknowledge, um come to a place where you can acknowledge that God owns either your business or your job. And it it's like the scripture says, where he's got your needs in his hands. He knows exactly what you need. He knows that if whatever the risks you'll be taking in your employment, acknowledge that he owns it, and then simply pray what do you want me to do? Show it to me. I'm willing. Here I am, send me, tell me what to do, and then start reading. I, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I started with reading Proverbs as a manual for business. I I got that advice from Larry Burkett's book, Business by the Book. And so that's where I started. When you start reading Proverbs and modeling and matching up your actions in your job or your business with that scripture, uh it's a roadmap. I mean, absolutely will show you what you need to do. But I guess the start is to acknowledge God's ownership of it so that then you realize, hey, it's not really my decision. It's it's not whether or not to do it, it's just now how do I do it?
SPEAKER_00I love that. I mean, that's that's that is the foundational piece of of advice and wisdom. I mean, it it's it's once you make the shift to where I'm not just working for money, I'm not just working for my boss, I'm working for the Lord, you establish that as your foundation, and now you can go to him for your marching orders and he'll he'll let you know all of the and that's the thing, it's not just a set of timeless principles, it's it's a partnership, it's a relationship with the Lord, and he'll guide you and he'll show you those needs, he'll show you those opportunities to to make an impact right where you are, whether you're a business owner or you know, you're you're working for nine bucks an hour washing cars, uh, you know, yeah, we can all make a powerful impact.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_00Well, Chris, where can people find you? Is uh ChristianFaith at work.com the best place to uh to reach you and uh kind of get a hold of some of the other things that you've written?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. That at that website you've got um easy way to contact me. There's a contact me form. There's uh you can subscribe to the posts, which typically are two a week, roughly. Um there's an ebook there, uh 67 practical ways to live your faith out at work, and and uh it's just a list of different ways that idea starters, that kind of thing. Um any way that uh I can help help someone in business in the marketplace live out their faith, I want to do it. That's what that's what God's using me to do, and that's what he's calling me to do, and and that's what that's what I'm about.
SPEAKER_00Well, as I mentioned before, Chris, if you haven't already read his blog post, Chris has written a powerful article on the subject of a Christian business and what is a Christian business, and he shows what that looks like uh at Mike Patton Auto there in LaGrange, Georgia. And and go and comment on and and respond to this discussion question can a company be considered Christian? And uh I can assure you, Chris will respond, and he he will respond at length as well. And and he's already done that uh for several of the people that have uh left questions and uh and comments. So got a great discussion going there at theology of business.com. Chris, thank you so much for I know you got a lot going on today. Um, make an impact for Christ, selling cars, just you know, blessings uh on your on your businesses and and just everything that you're doing. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your wisdom and expertise with us. Keep doing great things for God in the marketplace.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Darren. I appreciate you having me here. Uh, it's a great honor to be on your podcast, and and I'll say the same back to you, all the things that you're doing through the publishing company and so forth. Uh, keep it up. We got a lot of work to do.
SPEAKER_00That's all for this week. This episode of the Theology of Business Podcast was sponsored by High Bridge Books, which provides professional book publishing and author coaching services for inspiring thought leaders. You can take the next step toward getting your book published by requesting our free free video author training course at high bridgebooks.com forward slash course. Hope you've enjoyed this episode and would love to hear your feedback at theology of business.com where you can get more information about marketplace ministry, spiritual gifts in the marketplace, marketing like Jesus in Christ-centered leadership and entrepreneurship. Anytime feel free to email me at Darren at hybridbooks.com if you have any questions or comments related to the theology of business. Thanks for listening and keep partnering with God in your business.