This week's episode Reclaiming the Business Mountain for God with guest Oz Hillman. Welcome back to Theology of Business. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, author of the book Marketing Like Jesus, and this is the show that helps marketplace leaders to partner with God in business to change the world and make a difference in eternity. I'm looking for stories to feature in a book that I'm currently working on. So if you have a story of how you're using your spiritual gifts in your work and business, I'd love to hear from you. And if I use your story either in the book or on the Theology of Business blog or on this podcast in some way, I'm going to send you a complimentary copy of my book, Marketing Like Jesus 25 Strategies to Change the World. You can contact me to share your story through the contact form at theologyofbusiness.com, or you can feel free to email me at any time personally at Darren at hybridgebooks.com. Well, today we're going to be discussing reclaiming the business mountain for God. And we're joined by Oz Hillman. And if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, you've heard me share about the paradigm shift that I had years back when I was in the Air Force. And it was during that time that I realized that ministry doesn't just happen in your local church or doing quote unquote missions work overseas, but it happens in your workplace. And it was during that season that I read Oz's book, Faith at Work, and it truly did help me to reshape my paradigm about ministry and realize that God wants to, He's really involved in what's happening outside the four walls of the church. And he's shown incredible leadership in this faith at work movement. He's a president of Marketplace Leaders, which is an organization whose purpose is to help men and women discover and fulfill God's complete purposes through their work and view their work as ministry. In the past, he owned an advertising agency and is now an internationally recognized speaker on the subject of faith and work, author of 14 books, and has a daily devotional that's read by uh about 200,000 readers in 105 nations. Is it 105 or is it more now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's about 104 nations.
SPEAKER_00Wow. He's been featured on CNBC, NBC, LA Times, New York Times, and many other national media as a spokesperson on Faith at Work. And you can check out uh some of his books at TGIFbookstore.com. Oz, it's an honor to have you on the Theology of Business podcast today.
SPEAKER_01Darren, it's so great to be with you and uh thank you for all that you're doing out there as well.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Well, I'm I'm honored that you would be willing to be a guest on this show. Your work has meant uh an awful lot to me and has really helped to uh form my theology of business, and which really is uh has is uh provided a lot of inspiration for this show. Well, I shared a brief background about you, but tell us a bit more about yourself and about the moment or the season of your life when you first realized that God wanted to be a part of your work in business.
SPEAKER_01Well, Darren, I um I uh came to Christ when I was 22 years old and um I actually had a desire to be a professional golfer on the tour. I went to school on a golf scholarship, but uh when that dream didn't get realized, God used that to really draw me into relationship with him. Uh over the next few years, I would end up getting um out of golf and into business. I would ultimately land in advertising uh and owning and operating an ad agency in Atlanta for 12 years. And uh God bless that business. The name of our company was called the Aslan Group, named after Aslan. Even at that point, I really wanted to reflect Christ in the marketplace, and uh that was before anybody really knew that about Aslan and uh the Chronicles of Narnia, but it was a nice way of representing something spiritual about what we who we were. And uh but uh for 12 years we had a good run. We had American Express and Steinway pianos and Parisian department stores and Christian publishers and nonprofits. And but I went through a crisis in '94 that um basically I had a number of catastrophic events happen where my wife after um 12 years of marriage came in and said she wanted to separate and uh and then I had uh some investments of about a half million dollars that ended up being a Bernie Madoff type of situation that uh basically stole our money and went out of the country. And I um I had a client that represented 80% of our business that left and stuck me with a $170,000 bill and had a vice president leave and take my second largest account. So everything basically disintegrated in three months. Uh I would end up get, you know, my wife would divorce me three years into that, you know, hoping and praying for that not to happen, but it did. So anyway, that actually ushered me into a seven-year season of adversity. And uh I met a man uh two years into that named Gunnar Olson, the founder of the International Christian Chamber of Commerce. And uh Gunnar um at that time they had about 75 countries they were represented in. And someone had sent me a tape by him that said God was raising up Josephs all over the world, and they were often signified by them going through extraordinary adversity in their business and personal lives. And that that uh was about all I heard on that tape. I said, gosh, I gotta meet this guy. He's he's a key to my story. And uh and so he was in Washington, D.C. He was from Sweden, and I flew up there just to meet him, and he was gracious to allow me to meet him the very night of his conference, and he listened to my story and just turned to me and says, Oh, you have a Joseph calling or in your life. Um Joseph calling is one who experiences uh major adversity in their life, um, but with a goal to be a spiritual and physical provider to others, just like Joseph was. And uh your adversities are not necessarily all due to your mistakes, but it's a consequence of the call. And he said, you know, you probably have made some mistakes, but what you need to realize is the call is bigger than the mistakes, and that really uh touched me. In fact, I walked in a victim to my circumstances into that room that day and walked out with an understanding there was a call and there was a process. And so from that day on, he became my spiritual father to the in the marketplace, and uh I would uh see that God would begin to you know teach me and and give me a desire to understand how do you really bring the presence of God into your work life and what does that look like? And then I just happened to realize, I mean, it wasn't until years later that I realized I was one of several that God was speaking to about this area, and we really had a birth of the whole Faith at Work movement back in the 90s that affected a lot of situations. There was a lot of press. Um, I was on several TV shows and you know, magazines and stuff, and God was doing something in the lives of uh men and women in the marketplace. And so um, you know, seven years to the to the month, I got my rest I was restored financially to everything I'd lost. And then God birthed what I was doing, started writing about things, and started writing a daily devotional called Today God is first, that began to circulate, as you mentioned, and and uh ultimately I would end up in 25 countries and uh write 15 books and you know turn uh the valley of Acor to a door of hope. It says in Hosea 2.15 that word acor, which means trouble, he uh he has the ability to turn any bad situation into a calling, and that's exactly what he did with me. Last year we celebrated our 20th anniversary.
SPEAKER_00Well, congratulations on on 20 years of of leadership in this movement. I mean, my pastor uh back as I was sharing a bit ago when I was in the Air Force back in 2006, I had gotten a hold of that book, and next thing I know, you're at my church. And uh, and you you had given a presentation to help our church understand that God wants to be involved in in the marketplace. And and so I know that my pastor, as well as many other pastors around the world, really look to you as a leader of this of this movement. And I want to talk about some of the things that you've observed uh through the years, and I know that you've made some some projections in in some of your previous books about what you see God is is uh is going to be doing over the next uh several years. But uh first of all, the question is we're talking about reclaiming the business mountain for God. What can one individual Christian do to make an impact for God on the mountain of business? And what are some of the examples that come to mind? I know you've seen many of them.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the first thing is that we need to understand ownership and that that we are stewards of what God has given to us as business leaders, and that um, you know, it's very much similar to when God spoke to Moses, he said, you know, what is that in your hand? And Moses said, Well, it's my staff. That and of course that staff represented his uh life as a shepherd, and God said, I'm gonna perform miracles through that staff, and he told him to lay it down, and then he had to pick it up by the tail, which was a it turned into a snake, and he picked it up. And then it says it was no longer the staff of Moses, but it was the staff of God. And so that's a that's a real good uh uh uh analogy, if you will, of what God is looking for for men and women in the marketplace, is to can we be trusted to steward something that he wants to live his life through uh and uh and so it's a powerful uh analogy and an opportunity to ask the question, Jesus said uh he prayed that uh whatever's in heaven he wanted to come on earth. So what does that look like in business? What would it look like if heaven invaded my business life? And um and that's why I love um you know being in a relationship with Gunnar Olsen because he's manifested the presence of God in his business life uh for thirty years, and and there have been some extraordinary miracles and testimonies in his business life, and of course I've benefited and seen some of the same things as a result of applying those same principles.
SPEAKER_00For example, the because his company was uh a plastics company, right, that made big plastic sheets for hay bales.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00Is it yeah, and what and what happened with those?
SPEAKER_01Well they woke up one day and they were preparing a shipment of a thousand pallets and and uh they the inspectors were inspecting the bags and they had some type of um molecular breakdown in the plastic and they basically melt it to the point that it was all junk. And uh so you know, as when when Gunnar went to God with this problem and the Lord began to speak through his wife and his kids and himself to say that this uh this situation is not from God and that they were to stand against it. And so but it had already happened, and so the Holy Spirit took them through a process of of uh prayer and uh proclamation and going out to their plant, laying hands on their pallets and and uh proclaiming that they would be returned to their former state, and as ridiculous as the prayer sounds, that's exactly what happened. And they all thousand pallets got restored, and they had the scientists come back and validate this was uh a miracle on the scale of water into wine. And uh, but he's had several situations uh just as amazing as that. And I think that's where we have to get to in business is to understand that yeah, it's good to have uh principles to live by, it's good to live by the word of God, but there's also times where he takes us to another level, just like he took took Moses to another level, and he said, No longer do I want you to strike the rock with the the with your shepherd staff, but I want you to speak to the rock to get water out of it. That doesn't make us genies, it makes us people that understand there are times where we are called to use our authority in Christ to solve a problem. And um I think what God is asking of business leaders is can I trust you with a problem so that you will bring my life into that problem?
SPEAKER_00That's a powerful revelation when we realize that God trusts us, that he not only does he love us, but he trusts us and he believes in us. He's not anticipating our next failure, but he's anticipating our next success. And I think when we have that revelation of that aspect of love and how God trusts us, that we can then realize that he wants to partner with us and he wants to partner with us in our work every day. Well, Oz, as you know, one of the one of the things that we have we have seen as as you've seen is that there is a breakdown, there is a gap between the the local church and the marketplace. And and so I think we've we're coming to a point, at least, at least I hope we're coming to a point where we realize, okay, God wants to God wants to be involved in the marketplace. What what would it actually look like, or what does it look like when when people begin to yield to God in their workplace and and begin to partner with God and they begin to experience the God kind of success in their work? What is that, what would that look like, and what does that look like on the business mountain?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I I've got I do an interview uh with leaders as well, and I have one coming up with a bus a CEO who is probably modeling that as as good as anybody I've seen in uh recent time, where God began to convict him about the success of a business and realized that he was not really representing Christ in every aspect of his business, especially how he managed his employees. And uh this led him to form a team where he decided to allocate a certain amount of funds, and he said, you know, okay, I'm gonna take care of the families in this business, I'm gonna take care of the health of my employees, I'm going to educate my employees, and and he he he took basically five unique steps, and he formed committees around each step, and he said, Now come back to me and tell me what you would do. Uh what would it look like for us to love our employees as Christ loved the church and in in aspects of what would it look like if we really modeled what Christ is talking about servanthood? And uh so he came out with these amazing programs in his and his uh and it it affected, it was they were such powerful. I mean, give you one example. He said, you know, they found that uh their employees, many of their employees had a lot of car trouble. And so what they did is they allocated money that every time an employee's car broke down, they would send someone to get it, take it to a service uh repair place and pay for it. And this was for both the employee and the spouse.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01And uh that was a very practical thing that uh they did. Now there's been a number of other things they've done, but the net result of that is their um their retention rate of employees has gone way higher than what it used to be. Uh their income per employee has gone way up. They they hit this guy measures everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh and he wanted to see quantitatively uh what it would do to the business if he invested that kind of money into his people. And uh so you know that's just one example of many we could talk about.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, what progress has the the local church made in reclaiming the business mountain in in recent years? I know you made some projections about there would be more more uh types of programs where the church would really get would really begin to understand this this mandate to make disciples of not only individuals but of nations and that business would be a part of that. What have you seen churches doing to reclaim the business mountain?
SPEAKER_01Well, about ten years ago, we saw a real move amongst uh some some megachurches and some you know regular mid-sized churches, and uh we saw some growth there, but it didn't sustain itself. And we saw some churches kind of you know stick their foot in the water. But what what usually happens is that uh the mistake that many churches make is they they think it's another program to add instead of making it the DNA of their church. And uh really what has to happen is a pastor has to see their people as not a people to fulfill their ministry inside the four walls, but a people that he can equip to go out and change the world. And that one distinctive is what determines whether a church will be effective in equipping their people and seeing them in the right way.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, it almost sounds like if it I mean, if if a church doesn't found itself, I mean, really build itself on that philosophy of ministry, I mean, is there is there any hope for a Christian or or or a church that that grows and is and is built really just focused internally or focused on just trying to get more and more people into the building versus truly equipping people for ministry outside of the building. I mean, uh have you seen a church be able to uh really have that paradigm shift with success?
SPEAKER_01You know, I'm not in that space too much anymore in terms of as it as it relates to the local church. I've got a couple of other leaders that are more what you know in that space. So, but I have not heard of too many that um are actually doing a great job at it. You know, it it become when they even start the right way, it becomes a process of sustainability. Um there is a I just came across a church in Chicago that's doing a pretty good job with it, and they have a whole Joseph training uh process. They take people through. And one of the people that um is a key leader there had actually come across my book and came to my change agent weekend and and uh she was telling me about what they're doing. And so there are churches out there, but they they certainly uh I wish that that I could say there is a lot more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm curious, you you mentioned that you are you're kind of operating in a different space now. Uh was that so earlier on were you focusing more on trying to help pastors get it? And then you you you kind of shifted from focusing on pastors to actually focusing on the business people in the marketplace, or what kind of uh a shift has happened in the way that you really focus your energy and strategy over the last ten or twenty years?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think in the first ten years as we were try just trying to equip leaders, I saw a need to help pastors. We created a whole program for local churches that could be used to equip their people. But we saw such a difficult the ground was so hard in trying to get them to, you know, to buy in. And so it just became a a a situation where I was just uh I was seeing more fruit in other areas. So that's where I you know shifted. I'm really called to the individual in the marketplace. Uh that average person, whether it be executive or or just general workplace person to help them and and so that's kind of our sweet spot. We found that uh we have three core audiences uh the general workplace believer and understanding how to integrate faith in their work life the person second one is the person who's going through their Joseph Pitt their adversity and the third is the um the leader on one of the seven cultural mountains of business, government, arts and entertainment, media, family um education, the church let's say that you were 20 years ago kind of just starting out in this you know you got a whole you saw what God was doing and you said I want to be a part of that.
SPEAKER_00I want to be a part of what God is doing to reclaim the business mountain strategically what would you have done differently based on what you know now you know I'm not sure I would do anything differently.
SPEAKER_01I I think that my whole my whole journey if you will in call was uh was not something I intentionally wanted to do. I was I was a bit drafted uh through the adversity I went through and uh found myself simply trying to survive and in the midst of it it it turned into a a whole calling and ministry.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm and so so now you're focusing on the individual what is that what does that look like on uh kind of on a on a week to week basis as far as how do you help people get it? Because I mean that's that's the whole purpose of this this podcast that we're on now is helping people to make that connection but then to not just okay okay we get it God wants to be involved in the marketplace now what do we actually do about it and and how do we how do we know if we're succeeding at it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I think the uh for us what we've realized is the first um point of contact and growth is getting people to read um today goddess first um the devotional which they can go to today goddessfirst.com to get that and it's a free email devotional and uh uh or an app and so what we've realized is that as people read that uh their paradigm begins to change they begin to understand things they never thought about as it relates to integration of their faith life and their work life they also have an understanding of adversity because I wrote that during my seven year season of adversity. The second thing is that we try to take leaders to another level through what we call our change agent network and that is an online learning social site that has all of our training on it and uh it has uh over eight years of interviews with leaders like what we're doing right now we do twice a month and then a weekly newsletter and videos and so forth um and there they can get information on that by going to becomeachangeagent.com becomeachangeagent.com and that that's a monthly fee program in which um there's about 375 people on that site they're mostly leaders and it's a great resource for people who really want to learn and then we do our conferences and our weekend training we do a change agent four hour workshop we do a weekend workshop on Friday night and Saturday and we do a three-day and so if people really want to dig deep into this area and really grow in their understanding of how to be a change agent in the culture and how to bring Christ into their workplace these are we're really an equipping minister.
SPEAKER_00Yeah right what are some of the fruit that you've seen from the change agent uh workshops on the business mountain specifically people that have come through the change agent uh experience and and they're out there transforming business um yeah we we have some wonderful testimonies of people and and for most of them always start with the devotional and uh I've had some amazing things I one day I for I got a call from a a guy who works in Hollywood has a ministry in Hollywood and I'd had him speak at my conference and he called me one day he didn't know that much about the inner workings of our own ministry he called me and said Austin you write some kind of devotional and I said yeah and I explained it to him he says well there's a there's a an executive at one of the top Hollywood studios that reads your devotional and wants to talk to you and so we arranged a phone call and this guy was way up in a you know one of the top five Hollywood studios and uh he told me about how the devotional had helped him so much and um how God was using it for what he was doing in Hollywood.
SPEAKER_01And um I had a similar phone call from a guy from England who was one of the wealthiest men in England um and had just gone through his own Joseph Pitt experience of losing a hundred million dollars you can imagine that I cannot imagine that actually that makes my 5000 look like pennies but he had gone through a major medical issue and someone had given him my material and he started reading the devotional and and um said it changed it it saved his life through that period.
SPEAKER_00Wow so we get these kinds of testimonies about you know people having paradigm shifts and how it has helped them uh through particular seasons of their life or for the first time realizing you know I was on a podcast just before this one of a guy who now does this for a living and said you know I've uh I do this because of stuff I read I had a guy who has a Christian radio show called I Work for Him he said you know he Jim Brengenberg yeah he did that because of reading my stuff yeah and uh so you know it's very rewarding to hear people's stories of how how they connect with you and how God used the your uh your uh work to uh you know change their paradigms yeah wow well that's neat because I was actually just on his his show just last week and uh and and it's it's amazing just how God has used your work uh so instrumentally in both of our lives and now he has me on his on his show. That's awesome. Uh well oz what you're you're in tune with with what's happening and I'm curious to know from your perspective what can we expect to see in the next five years as a result of God's move among believers in the workplace well I think we're in I think it's a season of um the calm before the storm I think that we as a nation are experiencing some judgment on our nation and I think there's a remnant that's praying but I think that we're going to probably have some really tough times.
SPEAKER_01It reminds me a lot of the season when Jeremiah Lanfear lived in 1857. He was a single businessman living on Wall Street in the financial district and his church sent him out to start a prayer group uh one block from uh ground zero and um six people showed up for the meeting the first time it was a season of great uh financial turmoil in the nation and um anyway within six months there were thirty thousand people meeting for prayer and uh it it ushered in a major great awakening in our nation and even abroad and two million people came to Christ through that um that awakening and I think that we're in a similar place I see prayer movements all over the nation right now that are concerned about the direction of our nation I see the financial markets in turmoil that there is no good solution and there's no political backbone for anyone to do anything about it. And I think that we're going to see another major crash and I think that it's going to be a catalyst to really awaken uh people draw them to a place of crying out for the Lord and I think that those of us who've gone through that season are are here to help them but I really do think that that's what's coming and I think that's partly maybe why the Faith at work movement exists to help those in the marketplace who are going to be going through difficult times, especially those Josephs who've gone through that season of preparation and now they're they're able to help others.
SPEAKER_00Yeah you know and and what's what's scary and sobering I mean as powerful as the that Fulton Street revival was and and with the millions of people that they gave their lives to the Lord as a result of that prayer revival is of course the Civil War breaks out you know not not too long after that. And and so I think just like you're saying God can can make these revivals these movements happen in preparation for uh even I mean cataclysmic events that we we just couldn't even imagine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow I think that yeah I think it uh could be a real interesting time I have a I'll be speaking at a conference in two weeks called the Jubilee Conference uh and Rabbi Jonathan Kahn who wrote the Harbinger and the mystery of the Shemitah he's a Jewish rabbi converted believer and uh he um he talks about what he believes the nation's about to go through and uh so that would be an interesting gathering of of people who all are sensing something is going on in our midst wow well in addition to that conference tell us some of the things that you're working on this month that you're excited about well I'm just finishing a new book uh I I've actually finished it uh it's called God Stages um the six stages to the larger story of your life and uh that will come out in a few months and uh we are also working on uh we've just finished uh TGI radio minutes that will be 90 second devotional minutes that will air uh across the nation on Christian radio and a 30 minute show called Faith Work and Culture and uh so these are hopefully we're gonna get these things on the air in the second half of the year but we see that uh we're called to just equip people out there where they are and uh see see if we can't um get the needle going in a different direction absolutely and people can get in touch with you at marketplaceleaders.org and also on Twitter what's your Twitter handle again I know I follow you yeah it's at Oz Hillman. Okay yeah excellent well Oz this has been incredible as we close out here would you please pray for our listeners those of us that are on the business mountain that that God has called us to the marketplace that we would truly uh realize what it is to partner with God in business so that we can redeem this world.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely Father we um we thank you for this opportunity to talk to your people that are out there in the marketplace and uh I pray that uh you will work in each one of their lives that you will show us how to bring greater um levels of your presence in the area of our calling that we'd manifest your presence so that we could sense what you're doing and to be able to get witty inventions to solve problems to get ideas and strategies from you. You tell us not by might nor by power but by your spirit and so Father teach us what that means show us how to manage your business your way and so Father we just commit every person listening today that you will accomplish your purposes fully in every life and we thank you for that in Jesus' name amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen and again marketplaceleadersorg is the website Oz thank you so much for taking the time to share your valuable expertise and and insight and and also being vulnerable with us about your your Joseph story and it's been an incredible encouragement to all of our listeners I'm sure thank you so much. Keep doing great things for God and with God in the marketplace. Thank you Darren that's all for this week as a reminder I'm looking for stories to feature in a book that I'm working on currently so if you have a story about how you're using your spiritual gifts in your working business I'd love to hear from you. And if I use your story in the book or in the blog or on the Theology of business podcast I'm gonna send you a complimentary copy of my book Marketing Like Jesus 25 Strategies to change the world and you can share your story through the contact form at theologyofbusiness dot com or you can email me at Darren at hybridbooks.com thanks for listening and keep partnering with God in your business