In this week's episode, Grace versus Grind. Should Christians hustle in business? With gets Shea Bynes and Antony Nagir. Welcome back to Theology of Business. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, author of the book Marketing Like Jesus, and this is the show that helps marketplace leaders to partner with God in business to make a greater impact in society and in eternity. The show is for people who need a deep sense of eternal purpose to fuel the work they're doing in the marketplace. It's a podcast by Christian business leaders for Christian business leaders. Theology of Business Podcast is brought to you by High Bridge Books, which provides professional Christian book publishing services for inspiring thought leaders. You can take the next step toward getting your leadership, business, or personal growth book published by requesting our free three-video author training course at highbridgebooks.com forward slash course. Today we're going to be discussing the subject of grace versus grind. And as it specifically relates to the work ethic of Christian business leaders. And so what we're going to be exploring today is what is the right balance between hard work on our part and trusting in God to make our businesses succeed. And we're going to be talking with Antonina Geere and Shay Bynes today. This is a topic that they are especially passionate about. They're the founders of Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur, which is a podcast, a community, a series of books, and as well, they have a training institute as part of Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur. And what KDE is, is a community of entrepreneurs of faith who desire to build thriving businesses so they can serve their families, truly impact lives, and advance the kingdom of God. Antonina has over 20 years of experience in accounting and finance. And her experience in business is as a financial consultant for small business owners. And Shay spent over a decade as an internet entrepreneur and also served as a business coach to part-time entrepreneurs and real estate investors after leaving her corporate career behind in 2010. And as you're going to hear today, they're full of energy and uh just full of passion for uh helping entrepreneurs and and uh glorifying God through business. So, welcome Antonina and Shay.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Darren.
SPEAKER_00It's an honor to have you today. This is gonna be fun. Yeah, it is. So, first of all, tell us about uh just a little bit about your experience in business and also your experience in the church and kind of how these experiences have contributed to shaping your views on business. Let's go ahead and start with Shay and then uh Antonina.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So uh my experience in business that shapes business today, and experience in church, that's the question, right? So I've been in business since uh 1999, of some kind of business off the side, even working in corporate. But the the nature of the way I was is I was very much pretty meticulous planner, um very much a strong goal setter and and uh implementer and all of that. And I did all of that, and I and I did pretty well in a couple of the um ventures that I had, and then we started doing real estate investing down here in South Florida, my husband and I, and um, you know, bought properties down here. But one of the things that happened in business for me um throughout the years was that it really wasn't it's like I love the Lord. I have been in church forever, you know. I gave my life to the Lord when I was eight. You know, I've been at church probably since I was a baby, um, before I even remember. And but the thing was I love the Lord, but I really just kind of knew my parents God. I knew my parents Jesus. I didn't really have a personal relationship on my own, even though I had accepted him as my savior. And so my journey in business was very much just I'll say it was a it was a it was a hustling grind, right? And um, and that's what it was like for me in business until the Lord called me to leave business to go, I mean leave um corporate to only do business. And that's when the beginning of a transformation happened for me. I can also tell you that as far as church experience is concerned and how it has shaped my thinking about business, is that you know, in church, on a regular basis, I love my church home. I've been there for a long time, and I see just some of the most amazing things that the Lord does and how the anointing flows in a service. And one of the things that's become just really clear and something I'm really passionate now is that all those things that take place right there within the four walls of the church, those same things, the same deliverance, the same, you know, healing, whether it's emotional healing, just just whether it's an outpouring of love, people encountering the love of God, all of those things should not just be contained in what happens within a church. And so we have a very um, I I think it's a an honor for us as entrepreneurs to be in the marketplace, you know, building businesses, but at the same time being what we call fire starters, right? Really being out there and demonstrating his power and his his presence, his love, right, and his purity in the marketplace.
SPEAKER_00Antonina, how about you?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Uh so mainly um most of my experience in business, well, um, before business, corporate America has been in accounting and finance, that type of arena. So I've been fortunate to be able to bring that into the business world and then also, you know, a co-founder as King of Kingdom-driven entrepreneur. Um, but one thing that I can say about business that I had to learn about business in church is I grew up, I've been in church my whole life. Um, I grew up from in a Pentecostal background. Um, one thing about that background that I learned in my early 20s was that I it was so I'm grateful for the background because I got to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating and you know, think prophetic operation in the church. And but the only thing that kind of held me in bondage was there were a lot of rules and regulations from the Pentecostal faith. And sometimes that keeps us in a box. And I had to learn when I moved away from my hometown and moved to Atlanta when I was 25 years old and started going to a non-denominational church. I began to learn that I was saved but still in bondage. I wasn't free to be who God created me to be. Although I was taught relationship with God, I really didn't know him until I moved from that environment. And so sometimes I realize too that we've we sometimes bring that boxed-in mentality into business where you know, only business, I can only do business things in business. And um, I'm very you we gotta be we sometimes we try to be very rigid in you know, rules and regulations when at times God just wants to reign free, not only in your life, but in your business as well. So I'll say that's kind of how some of my views have been have been shaped as far as church and and business. So kind of moving away from not moving away from tradition and biblical base, but moving away from the rules and regulations that aren't necessarily biblical and actually hinders us from moving into a more intimate relationship with Christ. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, now that we've got kind of a foundation, uh a kind of a framework for understanding your background, Shay, tell me this. Should Christian business leaders hustle to get ahead in business?
SPEAKER_02So I guess everyone has their own kind of definition in their minds of what it means to hustle. So um I'll say from my perspective, when I hear the word hustle and what how I would look at hustling from when I was hustling, it was very much operating, trying to make things happen, push the doors down, um just push, push, push, push, push, and not and really just not even seeking God, not submitting unto God my agenda, my my uh my goals, my anything. Nothing was submitted to him or really even asked. I didn't even really ask him. You know, I was just hustling, pushing, pushing, pushing. Now I can also tell you that someone could submit their business to God and say and even get instructions from the Lord, but then take the one instruction from the Lord and still hustle and grind it out because they're not partnering with him in an operational kind of day-to-day basis. They kind of take the take the take the idea and then just go gangbusters and still go back to hustle mode, right? Right. And so, no, I don't believe as kingdom-driven entrepreneurs, I don't believe as entrepreneurs of faith that that's I don't think that we experience God's best at all in our businesses when we function that way. I think we miss out on a whole lot operating that way. Doesn't mean you won't get results. You can get some results that way.
SPEAKER_00Well, what about hard work? What is the role of of hard work to make a business succeed?
SPEAKER_01No, you go ahead.
SPEAKER_02No, go ahead, sis.
SPEAKER_01Now I was gonna say, I mean, hustling versus um, you know, operating and working in God's grace doesn't mean that you're not gonna put in hard work. Um the hustle comes in when we are like sis talked about, we're kind of you know, not asking God or not seeking God. And in a way, we're not in a way, we're really essentially working on our own strength, so to speak. So when hustling, to me, it kind of you're operating in fear. If I don't stay up another three hours, uh, what's gonna happen? I'm not gonna make this this doll, or I'm not gonna do this, or um, I'm gonna miss the my child's ball game because I have to get this project out. That's hustling, that's all birthed in fear. That's not faith, you know?
SPEAKER_02I'm glad I'm glad you brought that because that's the other danger in the hustle is that when when you're hustling, the the order, the kingdom order, can get messed up pretty quick, right? Where you're sacrificing things with the marriage, sacrificing things with the kids, sacrificing all these things that are of very high and critical importance, higher than ministry, right? That's your big that's your first ministry, your marriage and your family, right? And when you're in hustle mode and you're just so laser focused on that, then it's very easy, it's slippery slow, but it's very easy to fall into um getting out of balance. Right.
SPEAKER_01And it's easy to get worn out, for sure.
SPEAKER_02That's the difference between it's it's it's about um working under his grace. Because grace is is is not just you know unmerited favor. You know, grace is an empowerment, right? An empowerment to do the things that that he's called us to do. And so if you're operating in where he's called you, then there is a grace for that, right? And you operate in that, and that should be a uh flow. That's in fact, um one when we we actually did a podcast episode about this topic, it was like a two-parter. And one of the scriptures that um I brought out during that podcast was in uh Matthew, I'm actually pulling up now, Matthew 11, 28 through 30. And I picked it from the message Bible because I think it makes it just so good. And it says, Are you tired, worn out, burned out on religion? Come to me, get away with me, and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me, watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly. Right? If you just take that, it's just so good. There's so much goodness right in there. And if you take that whole idea of that's what that's what Jesus is talking about, unforced rhythms of grace, we should be working, living and working, doing our businesses under that grace, in that rest. It doesn't mean you're not working hard. You are working. But it could be the difference between, you know, being, you know, feeling like you gotta make 500 phone calls on something and being led of the Lord and making 10. I mean, it could be it's it's it's all you know, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about experiencing his best.
SPEAKER_00Well, let me ask you this to really kind of uh bring it down right down where we live. How many hours a week should a Christian entrepreneur or a Christian business leader be working? Would you say?
SPEAKER_01I don't know that there's a set number of hours.
SPEAKER_00I mean Or how many is too much?
SPEAKER_02And that depends too, right? Because people have different circumstances. Some someone who doesn't have, like someone who's not married, doesn't have kids, and they might say, Hey, there's right now, as I'm preparing, you know, I want to be able to spend more time doing this. Yes, I have hobbies, yes, I have friends and family, and I want to spend time with them. But they may say, you know, I'm gonna spend a little bit more time on this. Someone may have six kids at home and they may be homeschooling four of them. You know, they have much less time. So I don't think that we could we can say this is how many hours and make that broadly, you know, a broad thing. But I will tell you this, and I'll tell you this from personal experience, is that when you're do if you are listening and hearing and being led, you will know when it's too much. I have I have on more than one occasion been, you know, it's not like I was working crazy hours. In fact, I was working four out of five days a week, but yet still within the four out of the five days, there will be would be days when I would just feel, okay, you're go you're pushing too far. You're pushing too far. Go, go do the dishes, you know? Go, you know, go do the laundry. You know it's been sitting there for three days. Go do the laundry today, right? And so I think that's that's what's so cool about a relationship, a fellowship, because it's like the Holy Spirit will keep us in check. So, but there are times when I will work it will be more work. When we're doing a book launch, for example, hey, we got a book launch to do, and there's a week, there would be a week or two weeks prior to that book launch that we work harder than a standard typical week. That kind of stuff happens. There's ebbs and flows, and I talk to my family about it in advance, you know. We already kind of know the situation, and I might just forsake some hours of sleep on some of those nights so I can still spend the time with the girls, you know, and my husband, and then wait for them to be asleep and then knock out a few things that have to be knocked out. So I think you just have to you just have to feel this thing out. But you know, you'll know when it's too much. And if you're married and you have kids, they'll let you know too. Yeah, we are.
SPEAKER_00You're both mothers and you have and you're married. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so, so like uh speak to some of the women out there that maybe are trying to start a business and or they're trying to build a business, and and they're trying to figure out like what what can I realistically, how many hours a week can I realistic expect to be able to put into a business, just as sort of uh a goal, a ballpark.
SPEAKER_01You know, I it it like Shay said, it just depends on you know, on you and what's going on in your life and in your business, and you know, just getting your family involved as well, or keeping the lines of communication open if you are a mother, if you are a wife. Um, you know, I can't really speak to the the number of hours. I know for me, ideal is 30 hours a week, maybe for me.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, I would love for less than that. It just depends, especially someone like me who's in ministry, you or you have a spouse who's doing other things and you want to be supportive to him. But it just it it does, it depends, and that's why it's so important to have your ear to the word, have your ear to the Lord on a daily basis, um, so that you'll know how to maneuver that and integrate that. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think as a baseline, what you could do is, you know, you could take a calendar, you know, take a take a week and map out, okay, you've got to have, you know, your kids might be in sports or something. They've got their schedule. If you put all the things, if you say these are the things that have to do with my marriage that have to be taken care of, okay, make sure that they're in the schedule. Okay, these are the things related to my children that have to be taken care of. Okay, fine. I've got those in the schedule. Now, I also need to make sure that I've got some time from, you know, I gotta make sure that I'm spending some time with the Lord. You can continue to consider that part of your business. I do, you know, the meeting with the the meeting with the the ultimate CEO, right? Have the time that you're going to spend in the word, the time you're spending in prayer, whatever. Put those things on a on a on a calendar, right? See what you're working with, see where the gaps of time are, see where you can start dedicating time to your business, as opposed to saying, oh, well, you know what? I'm gonna put 40 hours in the business. It's gonna be eight to four, Monday through Friday. Maybe it shouldn't be that, you know? Maybe it shouldn't. And so I think if you if you want to look at things in a really practical way, just you could just put a calendar down, take your priorities, put them on the on the thing, and then start there as a baseline, and then understand that it could fluctuate from week to week as things come up.
SPEAKER_01Right. And it's okay too to say what it is that you want. That's right. I I want to work only this amount of hours. Well, if that's all you want to do, then then go for it. And like Shay said, put it on your schedule on your calendar. I mean, we're we're in we're in business, and most of us, if we're in business and we don't have other full-time jobs, you know, we can be flexible with with our hours. And then also, too, one thing is be okay with as a mom, as a woman, because this is so important, and as a wife, to also schedule time for yourself. Yes. Um, when you do, you're a much better wife, you're a much better mother, a much better friend, a much better housekeeper, whatever you need to do at home when you're, you know, spending time with your having some time for yourself, the things that you like to do that makes the men feel good person.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's an important issue to settle because I mean, in the entrepreneurial community, I mean, for example, if you were to if you were to go to an in a group of investors out in Silicon Valley or or someplace like that and say, I've got I've got this this business idea, you know, I've got X amount of users, like revenues coming in, and and it's something they're they're interested in investing in. If you're not putting in I mean 60, 70, even I think a lot of them expect a good 80 hours where you're literally going to be eating, sleeping, breathing your business, they don't think you're committed enough.
SPEAKER_03A certain investor won't, right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly, exactly. But and that's kind of that's kind of the norm. And and I think that that a Christian can easily kind of get swept up into that hustle, striving, grinding uh work ethics. Yes. And and it's not, and it really goes contrary to what the Bible teaches and what Jesus teaches. And and I love how in um I got a hold of this uh year a couple years ago in Psalm where it says be still, cease striving, and know that I am God. Yes, I will exalt my name in the earth. And I mean, he says, I'll do the I'll do the work, I'll do the exalting, like I'll make I'll make everything happen that I need to make happen, but just make sure that you're not striving. And and like you're saying, I think it's it's good that you're not necessarily putting a number on it because we know when we're striving. Yes. Because we're miserable, we make other people miserable, we're we're getting sick, you know, like we for some reason like we just can't shake that cult. Agitated, yeah, just agitated and just and and there's there's it just pushes out the sense of being able to truly trust in God. I I think there's kind of uh I I have like in my mind this continuum where on one extreme is fatalism, which is I don't have to do any work because you know God's gonna make it all pan out. And I'll just I'll just you know say a prayer and and it'll all work out. And then on the other end is that presumption mentality, which is if it's to be, it's up to me, and I gotta hustle, I gotta grind it out, make it happen. And but I think it's it's neither of those extremes. I think what you're talking about is is in the center. It's a rhythm. And yeah, it's a it's a rhythm. So so how well I mean, what are some other ways, like if somebody is kind of stuck in that, they really feel convicted by listening to this interview, that they're they're kind of stuck in striving. Like, how do you get out of that?
SPEAKER_02You know, I if that were me, you know, and I'm thinking, oh gosh, yeah, I'm I'm not because I I by the way I've felt this before and had to adjust. So what I would do is I would I would take it to prayer, right? And I'd say, you know what, this I I'm I'm putting this at your hands and I ask for wisdom. And usually, you know, in those cases, the wisdom was I needed to make an I needed to make an adjustment, right? I and I just it was just as practical as that. Okay, I need to make an adjustment. So I'm not gonna do X, Y, and Z on this day. I'm gonna make sure that I take that aside so that I can focus on these other things that are going to be a priority for me, right? And just practically do that. But you know, if if if I don't know what the answer is, you know, I'm taking I'm taking it as a prayer. If I asking for wisdom, right? Or having a conversation with my spouse. My husband and I, we have meetings every single we've done this for I think five years now. Every single Tuesday we meet like an hour and a half. We go on our little date, we talk about stuff going on in our household, stuff going on with my business, with his business. Now this ministry that we have together, we talk about all of that stuff. And so it always gives an opportunity for me to know his heart and for him to know my heart and for us to problem solve, for us to make adjustments and and it's really been very helpful. I it's very helpful.
SPEAKER_00How about you Antonina? Yeah so what would you recommend?
SPEAKER_01It's it's definitely you know prayer um and communication with my with my spouse as well. Usually for me when I am in a place of where I feel like I'm striving or I'm frustrated usually for me the wisdom is to rest and to be quiet. And um and a lot of times when I do that I can hear more clearly or if it's not just hearing from God I can see and understand things from a different perspective. So for me it's definitely outside of the communicating with my husband is definitely some rest and quiet because sometimes we can get so many different ideas and so many different people speaking in our ears that we're getting too much noise. And for me it's it's definitely have to be somewhere get still and be quiet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah I think on that as well one of the things I started doing uh several years ago is taking a Sabbath day. And I mean this might sound like a novel concept to people listening but it's one of the Ten Commandments you know to take to take like honor the Sabbath and keep it holy and I mean in our churches like we hear a lot about tithing we hear a lot about a lot of different things but I mean tithing isn't I mean like I tithe but it's not in the Ten Commandments. You know what I mean? Like like take a Sabbath is like a take a Sabbath day of rest is something that has revolutionized my life. I mean I was right in the middle of seminary whenever I started whenever I first started taking off one day a week where I'm not going to do any work. I'm not going to be responding to emails I'm not going to be writing papers any of that kind of stuff. And it just gave me so much peace. And what was interesting is that you know the way that grace begins to infuse what you're doing is it empowered me on those other six days of the week to be even more productive than I would have been had I stretched my work week out to seven weeks. I mean seven days and and you also had that sense of peace of knowing that no matter how difficult this week gets there's a day coming up on Sunday where or Saturday or whatever it is for you that where I'm just going to be able to just rest. I'm going to just spend time with family we're just going to you know lay down with you know with the with my son and and my wife and the dog and we're just going to chill out you know we're just we're just gonna relax we're just gonna reflect and it's been a powerful habit.
SPEAKER_02It's good that's good. Yeah I haven't worked on a Sunday for so long I don't I don't even that's such a good point I'm glad you brought it up I hadn't thought about it because in all these years even when I was hustling there was always a day that I wasn't doing anything. So I was remembering this I was remembering a Sabbath without really recognizing it as such.
SPEAKER_00It's a good point well let me ask you this like let's say that somebody feels that well I'm gonna in my industry like everybody else is hard charged and they're hustling like I feel like I'm gonna lose out like what would you say are the advantages of ceasing hustling you know ceasing striving and truly resting in God in the midst of trying to get ahead in business go ahead Seth I was going to say one benefit I would say is definitely peace that's that's a huge one at least for me it is peace.
SPEAKER_01And then I would also say too that you know is what other people in your industry think matters more than what God has instructed you to do. Sometimes that'll put things in perspective for you. I know it's sometimes easier said than done but you know sometimes you get to a point in life where I'm much better off pleasing God than pleasing me and pleasing other people.
SPEAKER_00Right. Oh that's really good. How about you Shay I forgot what the question was already what are the what are the advantages like is there a competitive advantage to resting and not hustling?
SPEAKER_02Yes I believe so because when we rest we're we are giving the we are accessing the supernatural power of God so if we're not resting we don't even get a we don't even get a chance because we've taken everything into our own hands got I got this Lord I got this and you don't even leave room for him to be glorified right and so when you rest what an awesome I mean think about how amazing it is when you have built a you know you have built the business that the Lord's called you to do your your everything is intact in your life right your business your family your you know your your you know be and you were resting and so I I'm not gonna compare myself to the other people right because I'm not those people right and I want I want God's best and I quite honestly want access to the supernatural power of God in my business for real. Like you know and so since I want to stay up that means I got to rest.
SPEAKER_03How to the layelujah I love it.
SPEAKER_00Well this is this is excellent.
SPEAKER_02Ladies what are you working on this month that has you excited what's going on with KDE I am working on our book number 11 um which is actually I'm really excited about this one it's actually going to be a book for our parents about raising a kingdom driven entrepreneur right so what we can do with our kids and our in our youth right as parents to to best position them for kingdom driven entrepreneurship. So I'm excited about that we have our online um community that we're growing and we also have our small groups um we have small groups kingdom driven entrepreneurs small groups that are that are popping up and we have been um certifying leaders to facilitate those groups and so we have some things that we're kind of working on that are going to help get more people um positioned and and equipped to lead groups so we're excited about that did I did I put anything out Antonina no I was going to say the small groups in the community so you nailed it.
SPEAKER_00Awesome kingdomdriven entrepreneur dot com so that's that's the website and and you're on Twitter and where would you recommend that people connect with you? On Facebook uh we have a a pretty active community there if you search on Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur we have a Facebook page but absolutely get plugged in on the email list so you can keep up with everything going on which is at kingdomdriven entrepreneur.com and check out our podcast as well it's on iTunes and Stitcher Radio Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur podcast okay excellent well Antonina as we're closing out would you pray for our listeners and then Shay I'd love for you to pray as well would you pray uh regarding this topic that we've been discussing to really if somebody is is in the midst of doing their business there's they're striving they're kind of stuck in this this rat race where they just can't seem to get enough accomplished and they don't have peace that they're that they're really moving forward and they don't really sense the presence and guidance of God in the midst of their business would you just pray over all of us got that we would experience that peace and rest that you're talking about that comes from relying on grace instead of grinding.
SPEAKER_01Yes sure Heavenly Father we just thank you Lord for who you are God you are great Father God you are awesome Lord there's no words to describe the deity of who you are Jesus and we thank you that we have the opportunity to share you um in our platforms as entrepreneurs Father God I speak Lord God that the people who are listening and all of us here that we have peace in our hearts peace in our businesses peace in our home because we have laid our lives down at your feet Lord we submit our businesses to you Father God we lend our ear to your heart father for our businesses God and I speak rest upon anyone who may be listening and they're feeling frustration or strife or or any of those things that are not of you that they begin to trust you Lord Lord show them who you are just in the little things of their lives so they begin to build upon their faith Father God it's in your son Jesus' name that I do pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_02Amen we just thank you just for just encounters with your goodness encounters with your love because when we when we receive that love we recognize that we can trust you completely. So Lord we just thank you that that you are leading and guiding us every step of a way um I thank you Lord that you have the best wisdom there is so we want to walk in your wisdom not necessarily the wisdom of the world but in godly wisdom the best wisdom there is so we thank you for leading us for guiding us thank you for giving us ears to hear you thank you for giving us uh eyes to see what you're doing for us to see the things that we cannot see them with our natural eyes but yet we can see that you are at work that you are in the midst we don't look to the left and to the right at what everyone else is doing but we keep our eyes focused uh squarely on you Lord and what you're doing. I thank you Lord that that we're able to rest as we work and that we're able to partner with you to just establish whatever it has whatever it is that you want us to do in the marketplace for your glory and for the benefit of others. In Jesus' name Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen kingdomdriven entrepreneur dot com is the website Shay and Antonina thank you so much for taking the time to share your valuable insight and expertise with us. Keep doing great things for God and with God in the marketplace. Thank you so much and thanks for having us that's all for this week I need some input from you the listeners of the Theology of business podcast. This show is for you so I need to know what are the topics that you'd like to hear discussed on this show regarding the intersection of God and business. In other words when you hear of the phrase theology of business what comes to mind what do you want to hear about and who are the guests that you'd like to hear from feel free to contact me through the contact form at theologyofbusiness.com or you can email me personally at Darren at hybridbooks.com. Thanks for listening and keep partnering with God in your business