This week's episode, Does God Want Us to Set Goals? With leadership coach and author Stephen McGee. Welcome back to Theology of Business. I'm your host, Darren Sure, author of the book Marketing Like Jesus. And this is a show that helps marketplace leaders to partner with God in business to make a greater impact in society and in eternity. If you want to learn more about how to do business for the glory of God, this show is for you. This is a podcast by Christian business leaders for Christian business leaders. If you're interested in starting and developing your own blogging website, I want to invite you to a free webinar that I'll be teaching this coming Thursday, April the 16th at 11 a.m. Central Time. This webinar is titled How to Start a WordPress Blogging Website. If you'd like to attend this live event, you can register at hybridgebooks.com forward slash webinar. I'll be talking about reasons to start a blog, how to pick the right domain name for your blog, how to launch your first blog post, how to get readers for your blog, and uh several more things. So I encourage you to attend. Again, you can register at hybridgebooks.com forward slash webinar. Today we're going to be discussing the question is goal setting biblical? And we're going to be focusing on goal setting as it relates to business. And we're joined by leadership coach Stephen McGee. For the past 25 years, Stephen has guided business executives and influential leaders across the globe to go beyond self-imposed limitations to new levels of leadership. He's an international keynote speaker and author of three books on leadership. He's transformed accomplished individuals around the country and initiated cultural change with major corporations such as Microsoft, Merck, Georgia Pacific, and Firestone. And he recently completed his first film, Climb for Freedom, a documentary about the transformation of seven men climbing one of the world's highest peaks and uh and the profound impact that that journey had on their lives and relationships. Steven, it's an honor to have you with us today on the Theology of Business podcast.
SPEAKER_01Man, I tell you what, it is such an honor to be here. Anytime I get to talk to someone like you about leadership and business and how the Lord works through us in that way, I'm I'm all in. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. This is going to be great. Well, I just kind of shared a short background about you, but tell us a bit more about yourself and your experience in business and and kind of your personal journey as a Christian and how these experiences have contributed to shaping your views on business.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I love the question because as I left business school in 1985, I went right into banking. And the truth is I went into banking because I wanted to make money. And by the way, I don't think there's anything wrong with a person wanting to thrive in the ways of making money, you know, but I have to say that I wasn't doing it in a way that felt exactly lined up with my faith. My faith was young, um, I wasn't that experienced in standing in my own truth and turtle in terms of the word of God and such. And I want to stray a little bit, you know, and and sometimes more than a little bit. And what I found was that I was out of my integrity, I wasn't well physically, and I got so sick, in fact, that I ended up in intensive care at uh a Swedish medical center here in Englewood, Colorado. And without going into all of the gory details of what happened to me in eight days in intensive care, one of the beautiful things was I started to regain my faith. I started to pray. I I listened to a man in intensive care uh not more than 40 feet from me, take his last breath. Wow. And I became very present to life and what God can do in our lives and what God did for me at that time. And when I came out of the hospital, it wasn't very long thereafter that I left banking and started a career. I think the Lord had put on my heart to really use my blessings, which was to assist others in the field of leadership from an integral place, you know, based in the alignment of God's word. And that's when I became a leadership consultant. So, and and of course, my journey and my faith and it has grown ever since. But that was really the the genesis of all of that.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. So, as you know, our topic for today is on goal setting. And the question of is goal setting biblical? Because you know, the Bible says it tells us, you know, don't worry about tomorrow. In fact, Jesus tells us that uh James talks about that in the book of James, not worrying about tomorrow. Tomorrow's got enough uh you know cares for itself. So so tell us how would you how would you respond to somebody that says, well, I just don't think goal setting is biblical.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I would say to them that we want to really, like anything that we read in the gospel, we want to look at it very closely. So in James, you know, the key word to me there in that passage that you speak to us is the word worry. And so I would say absolutely, I wouldn't worry about a thing, because if I have faith, then there's no such thing as worry. And and I understand worry to to be in the realm of a sin. So I would say don't worry about goal setting, but I would say that as business leaders, that we have a responsibility to take fiduciary responsibility for ourselves, our families, and the people that we employ at a very high level. And and and therein lies at least a point of view to start with from where I sit.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. Um well, how about setting something like financial goals? Uh, you know, there's the story of King Solomon and how he uh he just asked for wisdom. He didn't necessarily pray for like a specific amount of money. Um, you know, I think maybe there that was sort of a form of him saying like, this is what is most important to me. This is because I think we set goals in areas that are most important to us. And I think goal setting is a way to really turn our values into actions. But but for a business person, what do you think about financial goals? Is that something that we should be uh should we be setting financial goals?
SPEAKER_01I think that anytime any of us set goals that are ego-based, we're set up for pain and suffering.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And by that I mean, you know, I want to really be listening in my prayers and my meditations to what God wants to place on my heart. And and sometimes I'll get messages in my prayers that I really want to act on. You know, I uh was thinking about our podcast today, and I was reminded of John 5.8, you know, get up, pick up your pallet and walk. And the way I interpret that is it that's an action. Like I want to get to the healing waters. I'm not gonna lay here on my mat and be healed. Jesus said, get up, get off your mat and walk. And I think so setting goals, financial goals or other goals, it's an important way for us to see what's before us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I would also throw in, Darren, another element here, which is along the lines of a higher good. Meaning, is this for the highest good? In other words, if my family's falling apart, if I'm sick like I was in banking, you know what? That's telling me something. That's saying there's not a grace, there's not unmerited favor on this goal. There's something happening. It doesn't mean I'm lazy, I'm giving up easily. It means when I start to see that my world is falling around me because I want to go from 50 million to 150 million, it's something I want to pay attention to and make a shift from an ego construct to a spiritual construct.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I think sometimes those the goals that we set they do reflect what we truly value. And uh, I mean, I I think the reason why some people, and in fact, I did some teaching on goal setting one time in a church setting, and uh, and you've you've probably done the same thing. And I don't know if you got any feedback from any Christians where they basically feel that goal setting is is presumptuous. It's it's something that uh a Christian uh shouldn't be doing because we should just be grateful for what we have today. We shouldn't be um we shouldn't be setting goals and really wanting to go higher in our in our business or in a certain area of our personal or maybe sort of like a what they might consider a non-spiritual aspect of life, like like business. Uh, but what would you I mean what would you say to that person?
SPEAKER_01Well, what I would say is, and I don't know how many times the terminology all is used in the Bible or various versions, but it's in there a lot. And it's sometimes it's used as all the blessings.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And I look at that as, you know, God has in store for us an abundance. And that doesn't just mean money, by the way, but well, but wealth, for example, could mean health, sharing, caring, and it does involve money so that I'm not worried how I'm gonna pay my mortgage because I don't see any real value in that for any of us Christians or even non-believers. Like, what's valuable about that? So I'd say all the blessings means again, I have a responsibility to provide for myself and my family, like take care of my part. And God's certainly doing his part. Right. You know, so that that that's gonna continue to be there. And I just think that that God also gave us uh you know, an intellect, a mind to say, gosh, I if I put a number out there, that might help me to get off of my couch, to get out of my out of my desk and do the priorities. So that's what I might say to someone like it wouldn't be like an argument, because I always respect someone's point of view, but that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_00Sure. And and I love in one of my favorite verses is Isaiah 32, 8, where it says that a noble man makes noble plans, and on noble plans he stands. And so, I mean, you could really substitute the adjective there and uh a selfish man makes selfish plans. And I mean, of course, he's not gonna stand on those selfish plans because he's basically building on a weak uh foundation that's gonna crumble. But if if we are born-again believers and we are truly day by day having our minds renewed in in accordance with the the character and nature of God and what God wants, I mean, we can make those plans, we can set those goals and trust that they are in alignment with what he is, with what he values. I mean, when we make our values his values, goals to me are a way of turning those values into actions. And I think, you know, what Paul said run in such a way is not without aim. And and I love in uh in in even the creation story, God, I mean, I I don't know how how far, I mean, our concept of time and space um is obviously different from from God's, but he had a specific plan for all seven days of creation, of course, resting on the on the seven days. And and so how important is goal setting for a business person?
SPEAKER_01I think it's incredibly important to to do what Paul said, which is to aim. And right, and listen, I've done strategic planning for some very large organizations for many years, and I can tell you that I've never done a plan for an organization or a team or a department that the plan went the way the that we set it out on. In other words, the the plan shifted, it course corrected, it changed, but it's an aim. Um, and and I think that's incredibly important um for us again to take care of ourselves so that we can continue to take care of others in the name of the Lord. And I think that's the key distinction.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, in John, we we know that the the Lord said, He who believes in me in the works I do, he will do also, and even greater works than these. And I look at that as a true inspiration for us business leaders to say, Wow, that's what Jesus said to us. And he's he's really giving us permission to have a big aim. And and I think just in my personal experience and my intimate relationship with God, I I feel like sometimes even I have to watch that, you know, maybe I don't have a strong enough intention or desire to do good works, but rather it's too weak.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Yeah. So so I believe that goal setting is important for my business. What is the process that you take businesses through when they they see the importance and the value of it? Uh, what what is the process you guide them through?
SPEAKER_01Well, the process will change, oftentimes dependent on the industry, um, you know, the the maturity of an organization, the size of an organization, et cetera. But to to give us something all to think about, you know, I think we have to know why we want to do what we want to do. Like, what's really the deep-hearted reason? What's in the fleshy tables of my heart put there through God that that wants me to do X, Y, and Z? And that's important because we know that any goal is gonna have obstacles and there's gonna be challenges. So knowing the why can be very helpful to be steadfast as we keep stepping, as we keep moving forward. I you can think of you know, the the lives of the disciples, you know, and what the their world might have been like, you know, did they have a goal to share the word? What would their inconveniences have been? You know, I'm sure there were many, but they continued to share the word and they continue to go out and and talk about Jesus and and what they learned. So there's something about the why that's very important, and and I also think it's very important to have specificity. I I believe what gets measured gets done. And I'm gonna sound a little bit like I'm contradicting myself because I also said earlier that it's gotta be for the highest good. So if it becomes clear that there's just nothing working toward that specific measurement and things are falling apart over time and nobody's doing what they said they would do, you know, I want to really look at that and see if that's coming from ego rather than spirit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and I love you were saying you were talking about identifying why, why are we gonna set this goal? Because I mean, somebody, those of us that are goal setters, I mean, we can set go endless goals and end up with with a whole bunch of priorities, which are really not priorities at all. I mean, I think if you have more than just a handful of priorities, you don't really have any priorities. And and so identifying what does this company stand for? What is really generating the results? What is our what is our brand? Like, how do you help those companies kind of identify uh where they need to set goals?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's um it's it starts with just kind of leadership coaching language, which is what's the goal behind the goal? Because I've said in so many many you know, meetings, everybody thinks it's about growth as an example. It's not always about growth. Right. Sometimes growth is the worst thing an organization or a team can do, but what's the margin to the bottom line? What's my ROI? Um, because we want we want there to be strength, we want there to be a way to sustain what it is that we're doing. And and I think a big mistake a lot of business leaders make is bigger is better. That's not always true. And I think that's where we could get into a conversation about where people's desires are off, they're off setting. They're not next, they're not necessarily coming from the spirit of God, they're coming from bigger is better. And you know, I'm gonna grow, I'm gonna we're gonna triple this. Well, that's not always the best thing. So what I say to organizations like that is really, let's dive deeper. What's the goal behind the goal? Maybe it's serving our customers better so that we can charge a little bit more for our baked bread because it's more healthy to serve people baked bread that's healthy, and we have a greater margin. And maybe our distribution isn't uh, you know, 14 countries and gajillions of dollars, but maybe it's less than, yet we have a greater margin because of the quality.
SPEAKER_00Right. What would be an egg maybe some examples of business leaders that got positive results from following the goal setting method that you teach?
SPEAKER_01You know, I've been so blessed, Darren, to bring into my world uh leaders that I would say, you know, that they're enlightened Christian, spiritual-based leaders. And, you know, one that comes to mind was a man whose name I won't mention because I do keep confidentiality, but suffice it to say, strong Christian man, strong faith. And we really got into he's in the venture capital business, you know, raising money for big funds. And, you know, what happened was he hired me to grow his business. But our conversation really went to what's your relationship with God? What's your relationship with the Lord? And what he found was as he deepened that, as he started studying, reading his Bible, he joined an immense Bible study, started practicing that, deepening his faith. And that, by the way, was something we measured. I mean, we put a process in place that was, I think it was called he he wanted to become more of a god man. I think that was the language of the project. But there were all these pieces that led to that. And as he did that, guess what? His business started to multiply. It was like fishes and loaves. It was like, you know, Jesus comes out of the desert, his best one of his best friend, you know, has his head lopped off before he goes in the desert. He's in the desert and he's you know suffering, and he comes out. There's this vacuum now for him to be the miracle of fishes and loaves. And so sometimes I'll lead my clients through the desert in a way to get them to see what they can really create.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Can you hear that? Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So basically, there was a personal transformation that resulted in the transformation of his entire organization.
SPEAKER_01Well said. And and so now he's employing more people, he's doing Bible studies in his own office now. He can contribute more monies to his tithing and to his church. He's very generous with the increase. So there's a lot of real positive things coming from it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Do you find that that happening fairly often in the the companies that you with the leaders that you work with is that they think that what they need is and that's that happens so often in the gospels where somebody thought like the guy that was that was laying by the pool and he was lame and couldn't get up to go and dip himself into the pool. And Jesus says, uh, and and I think you were just talking about this, uh, take up your mat and walk. He thought he needed to get to the pool, and really he needed to walk. And he needed, he needed uh a revelation of who Jesus was, and it it transformed his life and gave him far more than he could have even uh even expected. So I mean, do you see that that these business leaders are hungry for that personal transformation where they thought that what they wanted was something that was more um corporate?
SPEAKER_01We're gonna need another podcast. Well, but you know, I I don't want to sound judgmental, but I'm gonna just speak the truth the way I know it to be, which is we're in a spiritual bankruptcy in this country. Sure. And so, yeah, a lot of people come to me, oh, leadership guide, he's gonna help me create more in the material world. Uh, but oftentimes it becomes what you just spoke to, which was listen, that's not what this is about all the time. Listen, your marriage has fallen apart, your health has fallen apart, you look terrible, you're 58 pounds overweight, you drink too much at night. You know, these aren't things that that I I'm saying these are things these people are coming to say to me, and I'm saying, how long are you going to prolong the inevitable? Yeah. Which is to build your spiritual muscle. Um, and I and I can mention one gentleman named Tim Brown, who is the former son-in-law of um Philip Anschutz, and he wrote a book about this, so I feel fine speaking it out publicly. His book is called Jump Uh Jumping in the Parade. And our entire work for a whole year was about Tim building his spiritual muscle. Now, now he was in the middle of you know great resources given who his father-in-law was and given what he had created, but he wasn't fulfilled. He wasn't happy. In fact, he was miserable and writes in his book about he was so miserable he thought about walking up to a top of a building and taking a leap. Wow. So we we all as men and women, business leaders, can get in trouble if we're ignoring our spiritual essence, right? In my opinion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you set a goal to ascend the top of one of the highest peaks in the world. And and so I would love for you to tell us a little bit about that as we kind of wrap it down and some of the lessons learned from that.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, there were far-reaching lessons. I'll start with that, not just for me, but for every person on my team. I collected a group of six uh leadership business business leaders to do a leadership program for one year. We worked on the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual levels of leadership. We trained together, we got vulnerable together, and the goal was to climb a 23,000-foot mountain in Argentina called Aconcagua. And mind you, Darren, none of these guys were mountaineers. This wasn't like something that they had done anything like this. So we were out on our edge and we learned from it because we had to lean on each other. We had to find brotherhood, steel temper steel, you know, we had that element in there, and we all grew as men. Um, a few of the guys kind of avoided what it was they needed to do until toward the end, but even they got real. And so it was an experiential leadership program that that was profound.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I love that because the only way you get to the top of a mountain is first by setting a goal to get there. That's right. And and I think that applies for whatever it is that uh whatever type of business we're in or whatever goal that we have, area that we need to grow in. It has to begin with deciding that a change is needed. And and let's put it on paper. And like you were just talking about, it's it's gotta be specific, it's gotta be measurable because things that get measured get get done. And if we're not measuring it, we're not gonna be able to, we won't even know if we got there. And uh, and so powerful teaching, Stephen. Uh, tell us what are what is something that you're working on this month that has you excited?
SPEAKER_01Well, there are so many things, but you know, one of the things I'm excited about is that I'm on the faculty for the University of Santa Monica, and the University of Santa Monica has a program called Soul-Centered Professional Coaching. And so there are 82 uh spiritually led coaches in that room, and and I love it so much because you know, like any business person, and and and it's true for coaches too, there's an impact in how we approach our business. Whether I'm a CEO of a large company or I'm a coach and I and I'm coaching maybe 20 people a year, but the the light goes out and the light gets multiplied. And so I'm really enjoying my faculty position there among other things. But it's deepening me as a spiritual leader and putting myself in situations where I continue to learn and get out of my comfort zone and surrender to really what God's plan is. I mean, that's how that happened, by the way. I just prayed and said, Lord, how do you want to use me this year? And two days later I got a call from the from the head of the university saying, Hey, would you be interested? And I said, I don't care about the pay, I don't care about the time involved, I'm in. Because I knew that was that was right that was led to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Wow, incredible. What a great opportunity to be able to uh minister and teach the the next generation. And you obviously have so much to share as you have on this podcast. Steven, tell us where people can connect with you.
SPEAKER_01You know, people can find me on my website, uh, among other places, but the website at uh McGee, which is spelled mcleadership.com, McGee leadership.com.
SPEAKER_00McGee Leadership.com. I'll have that in the show notes. And as we're as we're wrapping it up here, Stephen, I'll would you please pray uh for our listeners that uh that God would help us to set goals, the goals that he wants us to set, that if our values are not in alignment with his values, that he would just make that shift happen in our lives and just just pray as you're led.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. So to all the listeners, just unless you're driving, keep your eyes open. But if you have a moment to really close your eyes, Father, we know you're always with us. We're led by you. Father, we ask now for you to work with us as business leaders in this realm of goal setting and how we run our lives and how we run our businesses. We ask that you place it on our heart in no uncertain way, that when we're led through the Spirit of God, that there be clarity and grace, unmerited favor as we step forward. We pray also, Lord, that if we're misguided in our goal seeking, that it's about something other than you, that you let us know that in ways that we can see it, that we can feel it, that we can experience it. We ask for the Holy Spirit to work through us as business leaders, touching the lives of all those that we come into contact with as we go out, surrender and serve you always and forever. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen. McGee Leadership.com is the website. That's M C G H E leadership.com. Stephen, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the Theology of Business Podcast and share your valuable expertise and insight. Keep doing great things in the marketplace.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I just gotta say to you, buddy, thanks for doing what you're doing, because if you weren't doing this, I wouldn't be doing it and nobody would be listening. So good job.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Well, it's a privilege being with you today. Thanks, brother. Looking forward to continuing the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Me too. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00That's all for this week. You can comment on this episode and respond to our question of the week, which is does God want us to set goals? You can respond at theologyofbusiness.com. As a reminder, if you're interested in starting and developing your own blogging website, I want to invite you to a free webinar that I'll be teaching on April the 16th at 11 a.m. Central Time. And register at hybridbooks.com forward slash webinar. Webinar titled start a WordPress blog website. Thanks for listening.